Islam, Muslim / Christian Forum - Welcome All
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: khalib on January 09, 2013, 12:49:52 PM
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God conscience is taking God for a conscience and living your life in line with the sentence there is no deity except God which is essentially saying that I take full responsibility for my behavior and I understand that I am accountable to no one except God. It is also declaring that no creation on this earth living or non living, in the past, present, or future be it our desire, emotions, clergy, culture or conscience, has a right to control, force us or relieve us of this responsibility.
So can you honestly say you have God conscience? Or have you taken others for a conscience? If yes than that is idolatry.
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Hello khalib, and welcome to the forum! :)
God conscience is taking God for a conscience and living your life in line with the sentence there is no deity except God which is essentially saying that I take full responsibility for my behavior and I understand that I am accountable to no one except God.
Indeed we are all accountable for our sins, and no matter how great or small, it is sin that separates us from God. From early in God's revelation to mankind we learned that sin had to be atoned for:
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.
The whole purpose of the alter in the temple that God had His people build on the temple mount, was for sacrifice of animals for blood atonement for sin.
Exd 29:36 And thou shalt offer every day a bullock [for] a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it.
It is also declaring that no creation on this earth living or non living, in the past, present, or future be it our desire, emotions, clergy, culture or conscience, has a right to control, force us or relieve us of this responsibility.
If there were no blood price paid for our sins, we would be separated from God forever, because there are none righteous. We are all lowly sinful wretches.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
A human could never earn our way to be in the presence of a perfect God. Blessedly our Savior was revealed to the world to provide an atonement for sin. The whole subject of the Gospel - indeed the whole bible.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
Please visit this thread on the Gospel:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1175.0
If you prefer a video version, please try this YouTube search:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2605.0
Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Here is what the prophet Jesus prophesied of His own crucifixion for that blood atonement:
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
What Jesus meant by "in the Psalms" was that His crucifixion was prophesied many hundreds of years before it took place:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm
Also "in the prophets" because it was prophesied by Isaiah:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm
Those two Old Testament prophesies are responsible for bringing many Jews into relationship with Jesus Christ.
So can you honestly say you have God conscience?
God transcends a conscience since He is perfect. Perhaps I am misunderstanding because of language.
Or have you taken others for a conscience? If yes than that is idolatry.
What some refer to as a conscience is the Spirit of God striving with mankind. That is how we can tell the difference between right and wrong. God's Spirit is one part of the Godhead - a part of God.
Welcome to the forum my friend!
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Hi Peter and thanks for a very nice reply,
What God transcends is not conscience but thought because If we are able to know or understand God directly through our thoughts than we too would be God or His equal. What we can know, and understand is our relationship with Him.
If we define conscience as that which we willingly choose to serve as our moral compass i.e- science, religion, culture, clergy…, then God or His revelation (be it Quran, Bible..) is our conscience if He is what we have chosen to serve as a guide. Hence what I meant by “do you truly believe in one God†is what you have taken for a conscience or in other words what guides your decisions in every aspect of your life. You can’t tell me it’s the bible or the Quran unless it meets these two criteria:
1. Does your Holy Book contain complete guidance in terms of behavior and relationships within and beyond your society in terms of business, marriage, the economy, taxation, family…? If no than there is a problem, what do you use for a conscience in these instances? Please don’t tell me right and wrong are your guide because nothing can be more subjective than right and wrong. The guidance must be just and universal so that it can serve as a guide to all people regardless of culture, color, tribe, nation…
2. Is your holy book the direct word of God, conveyed and written as was intended? Only the direct and unimpeded word of God can fulfill the above mentioned point, otherwise customs, traditions, science, desires, emotions, and clergy begin to fill the gap and thus become our conscience, leading us astray.
As I mentioned earlier we cannot know God directly but we can understand our relationship with Him. From this relationship we derive certain attributes of God which define this relationship. One of Gods attributes is that He is The Just. He is Just in His relationship with us which is why when Lucifer or Satan stated that he would mislead the sons of Adam God responded by saying he can only misguide the person who through choice decides to follow him; God denied him any power over people because that would not be just.
I can go on and on but the point I am trying to make is that the whole concept of sin and atonement as you stated does not fit in with the attributes of a Just and ABLE God. Generally speaking sin is not evil and neither is it a flaw in our creation. Sin is a necessary part of our existence which is why God provided us with forgiveness. It is only through our mistakes that we realize and learn and pass this information on to the next generation allowing us to socially evolve and advance as a species. Sins are nothing but mistakes and forgiveness is to realize and learn from these mistakes so that you don’t repeat them. I am not calling Universal morals such as murder, rape, stealing… mistakes, no, these are extremes of sin. For example Anger may be good because it can motivate us to do that which is good, but rage or extreme anger may be evil because it can take over our senses and cause us to harm others.
God is One, The Just without a beginning and end. I agree with you that we can never earn heaven on our merit but by the grace of God. This however does not mean you don’t put effort into doing Good; of course this goes against logic. People must place effort into avoiding the extremes of sin as well as mistakes which may lead to harming others as well as themselves. How do you than measure this effort? This question Pete is I think where our two religions differ.
Correct me if I am wrong but yours claims this is measured by ones level of faith and acceptance that Jesus (Peace upon Him) died for your sins. While mine insists it is measured through ones faith and effort in abiding Gods law.
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Hi Peter and thanks for a very nice reply,
What God transcends is not conscience but thought because If we are able to know or understand God directly through our thoughts than we too would be God or His equal. What we can know, and understand is our relationship with Him.
If we define conscience as that which we willingly choose to serve as our moral compass i.e- science, religion, culture, clergy…, then God or His revelation (be it Quran, Bible..) is our conscience if He is what we have chosen to serve as a guide. Hence what I meant by “do you truly believe in one God†is what you have taken for a conscience or in other words what guides your decisions in every aspect of your life. You can’t tell me it’s the bible or the Quran unless it meets these two criteria:
1. Does your Holy Book contain complete guidance in terms of behavior and relationships within and beyond your society in terms of business, marriage, the economy, taxation, family…? If no than there is a problem, what do you use for a conscience in these instances? Please don’t tell me right and wrong are your guide because nothing can be more subjective than right and wrong.
They are not at all subjective to a person guided by the Holy Spirit. When a person repents, and is baptized and "born again" we begin a relationship with Jesus Christ and He fills us with His Spirit. I earlier said that God poured His Spirit out ON all flesh, however once a person is born again God is IN us, and we in Him.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
Here's the way the Old Testament prophet Jeremiah prophesied of the new covenant, that Jesus ushered in many hundreds of years later, when Jesus was made manifest to the world:
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
You see? God IN us teaching and guiding us. His law is written in His people's hearts:
John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
The Holy Spirit is what is guiding me in composing this post.
Being of His Spirit is how God's people ARE His temple in this new covenant era:
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
1Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm
That's why Herod's temple was torn down. To light the ONE WAY to God the Father:
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
The ONE sacrifice for sin forever:
Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
We also have the scriptures to guide and confirm. For example: 1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
We are washed by the blood of the Lamb of God.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Jesus was crucified during passover (which Jews still celebrate). Jesus became the passover Lamb. Here's a thread on the passover lamb.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3080.0
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The guidance must be just and universal so that it can serve as a guide to all people regardless of culture, color, tribe, nation…
That's exactly what His Spirit does. Transcending all of that and and more. For example a "born again" Christian doesn't even have to be able to read, or understand the law, because it is written in our hearts.
2. Is your holy book the direct word of God, conveyed and written as was intended?
Yes it is. In fact we have over 5300 partial or complete transcripts that were penned prior to 300 AD, in many languages, from all over the known world. The fact that all of those manuscripts confirm each other assures us that the scriptures were handed down to us intact. Indeed to suggest that they were changed would require a plot throughout all those countries, to erase and change each of those manuscripts, in all of those languages. A ridiculous notion, isn't it. Also we have the Dead Sea Scrolls that were discovered in 1947 that confirmed that the scriptures we have today have been handed down to us intact.
Please read this thread on the topic of the textual integrity of the scriptures:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0
Our scriptures are also confirmed by the historical, archaeological and geographical records. We have a whole forum section on the subject:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=68.0
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Only the direct and unimpeded word of God can fulfill the above mentioned point, otherwise customs, traditions, science, desires, emotions, and clergy begin to fill the gap and thus become our conscience, leading us astray.
Most important are witnesses, otherwise we would only be taking an individual's word for things. For example:
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
2Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
You've probably heard of the Mormons, also called Church of the Latter Day Saints. They follow the words a 19th century individual named Joseph Smith, that claimed he met a shimmering angel named Maroni, that gave him revelations. He even added a book to the bible. The Book of Mormon. Yet not a single person ever witnessed any of his "revelations" being given to him. His followers just take his word for it. So it should be no surprise that the Book of Mormon is contrary to the scriptures. This is how we can know it was Satan posing as an angel that gave him the revelations. The bible itself warns of exactly this sort of thing:
2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Regarding adding to the scriptures, here is how they close:
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen.
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As I mentioned earlier we cannot know God directly .........
But I do through my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
......... but we can understand our relationship with Him. From this relationship we derive certain attributes of God which define this relationship. One of Gods attributes is that He is The Just. He is Just in His relationship with us which is why when Lucifer or Satan stated that he would mislead the sons of Adam God responded by saying he can only misguide the person who through choice decides to follow him; God denied him any power over people because that would not be just.
I can go on and on but the point I am trying to make is that the whole concept of sin and atonement as you stated does not fit in with the attributes of a Just and ABLE God.
But as I showed you through the scriptures, blood atonement for sin is exactly an attribute of God because that ishow God revealed Himself to us. This isn't about a presumption, because Abraham sacrifices a ram to God after God saved Isaac. The temple was built and the temple mount stands today. God's people obeyed Him and were sacrificing animals in that temple 3,000 years ago. Your statement simply expresses disobedience to God by expressing a personal opinion that is inconsistent with the way that He revealed Himself. God isn't about what we may presume, or wish Him to be, but about the way He revealed Himself to us.
Generally speaking sin is not evil and neither is it a flaw in our creation. Sin is a necessary part of our existence which is why God provided us with forgiveness.
Let me ask you a question regarding sin at this point. Do you suppose there some sins that are so bad that they cannot be forgiven?
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Hi Peter,
To answer your question: We are taught that God forgives all sins as long as one repents with sincerity. But we must never forget that God is the best of judges and no one besides He can say or decide whether or not a person will be forgiven. Even if our sins are as large as a mountain, he will forgive them as long as we ask for forgiveness with sincerity. As He said: If we turn to Him walking, He will come to us running.
You have mostly responded to my previous post by using quotes from the bible, in what I believe is an effort to support your point of view. The problem with that though is as much as I respect the Bible and value my relationship with many good people who are Christians, I don’t believe the Bible is anywhere close to been the Word of God, just as am sure you also don’t believe what I believe in is anywhere even close to the words of God, so how can you use what I don’t believe in to respond to my points? In fact how can even God expect us to believe in what does not make sense and is illogical on the basis of faith? That would be injustice for it is He who created us to think with our minds and not heart. The way to the heart is through the mind; which is why information or knowledge based on logic increases ones faith and information that is illogical, but still accepted through faith is fanaticism. Fanaticism means we are guided by our emotions and desires, instead of God conscience
Can you defend your faith based on reason and invite people to accept salvation through your faith through the same?
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Let me ask you a question regarding sin at this point. Do you suppose there some sins that are so bad that they cannot be forgiven?
Hi Peter,
To answer your question: We are taught that God forgives all sins as long as one repents with sincerity. But we must never forget that God is the best of judges and no one besides He can say or decide whether or not a person will be forgiven. Even if our sins are as large as a mountain, he will forgive them as long as we ask for forgiveness with sincerity. As He said: If we turn to Him walking, He will come to us running.
Then why do you suppose Muhammad said:
4.048 Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.
What sin could be worse than for a person to confess that Jesus is the Son of God?
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You have mostly responded to my previous post by using quotes from the bible, in what I believe is an effort to support your point of view. The problem with that though is as much as I respect the Bible and value my relationship with many good people who are Christians, I don’t believe the Bible is anywhere close to been the Word of God, just as am sure you also don’t believe what I believe in is anywhere even close to the words of God, so how can you use what I don’t believe in to respond to my points?
By Muhammad's 7th century the Gospel had been translated into every popular language in the known world, had been copied tens of thousands of times (some suggest a hundred thousand), and had been read all over the known world for centuries. Thus the Gospel of Muhammad's day, is necessarily the same Gospel we have today, or tens of thousands of copies in all those languages would have all had to have been erased, and then uniformly changed!
In that same 7th century Muhammad said:
Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/
So are you suggesting that Muhammad was simply that ignorant to have given, what you apparently can only conclude was, such foolish advice? Perhaps that 21st century Muslims are just smarter than he was?
Yet the whole subject of the Gospel is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah, the Lamb of God, who saves all from sin who have faith in His atoning blood.
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In Islam Shirk or idolatry means taking anything for a conscience other than God. What one takes for a conscience is what they have faith or trust in above everything else, because that is what he/she will weigh every decision against to decide whether or not it is right-wrong, moral-immoral, ethical-unethical and so on. There is no religion in existence today or in the past that has ever denied the existence of the one and true God, therefore it doesn’t matter if we believe in the existence of the one and only true God, what we choose for a conscience decides whether or not we are engaged in idol worship or not. Take for instance a man who claims to believe in the existence of God, but carries a small symbol or idol around their neck or in their pocket that they pray to when in a dilemma, believing that that symbol will bring them closer to their lord. This is idol worship for this person has placed their trust in another other than God, and has sought guidance in another other than God. Why this is a grievous sin I can explain later if you wish but for the point I am trying to make now this should suffice.
Most of the companions of the prophet including those closest to him who accepted Islam were engaged in idol worship, so no Peter, the verse you quoted does not and cannot mean God does not forgive idol worship. Otherwise the prophet (peace be upon him) would have been telling his closest companions that they are destined to hell. What it means is if you are a Muslim and choose something for a conscience other than God be it an idol, religious leader, prophet than you have died in a state of disbelieve and not as a Muslim, therefore you are not worthy of forgiveness or Gods grace. Personal responsibility is paramount in Islam and we cant give that over to anything or anyone.
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You have mostly responded to my previous post by using quotes from the bible, in what I believe is an effort to support your point of view. The problem with that though is as much as I respect the Bible and value my relationship with many good people who are Christians, I don’t believe the Bible is anywhere close to been the Word of God, just as am sure you also don’t believe what I believe in is anywhere even close to the words of God, so how can you use what I don’t believe in to respond to my points?
By Muhammad's 7th century the Gospel had been translated into every popular language in the known world, had been copied tens of thousands of times (some suggest a hundred thousand), and had been read all over the known world for centuries. Thus the Gospel of Muhammad's day, is necessarily the same Gospel we have today, or tens of thousands of copies in all those languages would have all had to have been erased, and then uniformly changed!
In that same 7th century Muhammad said:
Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/
So are you suggesting that Muhammad was simply that ignorant to have given, what you apparently can only conclude was, such foolish advice? Perhaps that 21st century Muslims are just smarter than he was?
Yet the whole subject of the Gospel is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah, the Lamb of God, who saves all from sin who have faith in His atoning blood.
Hi Peter,
Again you are misquoting what a verse in the Nobel Quran means. I don’t blame you though because the translation of the Quran is not the Quran but just that a translation, and we often see things that we want to see even in what is not possible for them to be in.
Our prophet (SAW) was sent for the mercy of humanity, but unfortunately when he came the Jews and Christians denied his prophet hood, just as the Jews denied the prophet hood of Jesus (peace be upon him). This verse is asking them to look in their Bible which foretells the coming of Muhammad (SAW). This is why it says if they still deny it after it has been foretold than they are rebelling against their own scripture. I am not going to quote which verses in the bible foretell the coming of Muhammed because a simple Google search will reveal thousands of sites to you showing you this.
Keep in mind also that the Bible you are probably quoting from is a translation and not the actual Bible.
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Please let me finish your prior post before addressing your next two.
In fact how can even God expect us to believe in what does not make sense and is illogical on the basis of faith?
We don't have to rely solely on faith since the crucifixion of the Messiah was prophesied many hundreds of years in advance. Even hundreds of years before crucifixion was ever invented!
Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm
That would be injustice for it is He who created us to think with our minds and not heart. The way to the heart is through the mind; which is why information or knowledge based on logic increases ones faith and information that is illogical, but still accepted through faith is fanaticism. Fanaticism means we are guided by our emotions and desires, instead of God conscience
Can you defend your faith based on reason and invite people to accept salvation through your faith through the same?
If course I can. As I mentioned previously I can support it through fulfillment of prophecy, history, archaeology or geography. A whole forum section devoted to it:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=68.0
I would recommend that you do a web search now, like - click the link history archaeology of Mecca (http://www.bing.com/search?q=history+archaeology+of+Mecca&qs=n&form=QBLH&pq=history+archaeology+of+mecca&sc=0-0&sp=-1&sk=) - to see if you can do the same regarding Islam.
But surely you aren't suggesting that you found Muhammad's Allah through logic, when the whole reason you believe that you pray five times a day, is because of Muhammad's claim that he rode on a "buraq" one night, from Mecca to Jerusalem, up to "paradise", and back to Mecca by morning. However there was never ever a single witness in the history of the world that ever saw a flying donkey-mule, or any witnesses to Muhammad's account of having ridden on such a thing. His followers are stuck taking his world for it.
Let alone that Muhammad claimed he went into the temple of the prophets, and prayed two rak'ahs in it, however the temple had actually been torn down five hundred years prior to his claim. Indeed during the time in history that Muhammad made his claim to have prayed in it, the temple mount was being used as a garbage dump.
Where is the "thinking" or "logic" in believing in Muhammad's story about the buraq my friend?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0
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In Islam Shirk or idolatry means taking anything for a conscience other than God. What one takes for a conscience is what they have faith or trust in above everything else, because that is what he/she will weigh every decision against to decide whether or not it is right-wrong, moral-immoral, ethical-unethical and so on. There is no religion in existence today or in the past that has ever denied the existence of the one and true God, therefore it doesn’t matter if we believe in the existence of the one and only true God, what we choose for a conscience decides whether or not we are engaged in idol worship or not. Take for instance a man who claims to believe in the existence of God, but carries a small symbol or idol around their neck or in their pocket that they pray to when in a dilemma, believing that that symbol will bring them closer to their lord. This is idol worship for this person has placed their trust in another other than God, and has sought guidance in another other than God. Why this is a grievous sin I can explain later if you wish but for the point I am trying to make now this should suffice.
Most of the companions of the prophet including those closest to him who accepted Islam were engaged in idol worship, so no Peter, the verse you quoted does not and cannot mean God does not forgive idol worship.
It has nothing to do with idol worship. It has to do with assigning partners to Allah. Read it again and I will help you try to provide a straight answer this time.
4.048 Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.
That says that Allah "forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him" period.
The sin being discussed would be a sin more "heinous" than any other sin, since "He forgiveth anything else".
Here's how your brethren put it in website after website: "The sin of shirk is to associate partners with Allah, basically this means to set up idols and false deities alongside Allah, granting them equal status to Allah, and to give them actions which are only reserved for God alone, such as worshipping them, making oaths to them, having fear and hope in them, and to sacrifice things in their name. All of this constitutes shirk, an example is the case of Jesus, those who set him up as a God, and invoke on him and pray to him are guilty of shirk, they are guilty of setting up a partner to the true God Allah."
So when a Christian confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, or even prays in Jesus name, has he committed the ONLY unforgivable, and absolutely most heinous sin, according to Muhammad. Isn't that right?
Otherwise the prophet (peace be upon him) would have been telling his closest companions that they are destined to hell. What it means is if you are a Muslim and choose something for a conscience other than God be it an idol, religious leader, prophet than you have died in a state of disbelieve and not as a Muslim, therefore you are not worthy of forgiveness or Gods grace. Personal responsibility is paramount in Islam and we cant give that over to anything or anyone.
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Please let me finish your prior post before addressing your next two.
In fact how can even God expect us to believe in what does not make sense and is illogical on the basis of faith?
We don't have to rely solely on faith since the crucifixion of the Messiah was prophesied many hundreds of years in advance. Even hundreds of years before crucifixion was ever invented!
Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm
That would be injustice for it is He who created us to think with our minds and not heart. The way to the heart is through the mind; which is why information or knowledge based on logic increases ones faith and information that is illogical, but still accepted through faith is fanaticism. Fanaticism means we are guided by our emotions and desires, instead of God conscience
Can you defend your faith based on reason and invite people to accept salvation through your faith through the same?
If course I can. As I mentioned previously I can support it through fulfillment of prophecy, history, archaeology or geography. A whole forum section devoted to it:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=68.0
I would recommend that you do a web search now, like - click the link history archaeology of Mecca (http://www.bing.com/search?q=history+archaeology+of+Mecca&qs=n&form=QBLH&pq=history+archaeology+of+mecca&sc=0-0&sp=-1&sk=) - to see if you can do the same regarding Islam.
But surely you aren't suggesting that you found Muhammad's Allah through logic, when the whole reason you believe that you pray five times a day, is because of Muhammad's claim that he rode on a "buraq" one night, from Mecca to Jerusalem, up to "paradise", and back to Mecca by morning. However there was never ever a single witness in the history of the world that ever saw a flying donkey-mule, or any witnesses to Muhammad's account of having ridden on such a thing. His followers are stuck taking his world for it.
Let alone that Muhammad claimed he went into the temple of the prophets, and prayed two rak'ahs in it, however the temple had actually been torn down five hundred years prior to his claim. Indeed during the time in history that Muhammad made his claim to have prayed in it, the temple mount was being used as a garbage dump.
Where is the "thinking" or "logic" in believing in Muhammad's story about the buraq my friend?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0
Hi Peter,
We are conscious animals who not only have conscience but are conscious as well. To begin with Peter that is not why we pray in Islam. Another name for Islam as you may be aware is The Reminder. Praying five times a day is simply to remind us of our responsibilities as Muslims to ourselves, family, neighborhood and wider society. This is why we pray in congregation, and why we have nearby mosques to our homes which could be several in a neighborhood for our daily prayers, one neighborhood mosque for our Friday prayers that unites all the people of the same neighborhood under one roof under a leader or imam, and a community mosque bringing together people from many neighborhoods for the Eid prayer. Thus the prayer not only serves the purpose of reminding us of our responsibilities, but unites us under a common purpose. It is also a time we socialize with one another and ask God for forgiveness and guidance five times a day as doctors, lawyers, teachers, fathers, mothers, sisters….
But even in the Quran it does mention that prayer on its own is not righteousness, but rather providing for the widow, orphan… is righteousness. As for the journey you described peter, it is indeed part of our faith that we are required to believe through logic. But before I go on I would like to explain to you what I mean by logic. To understand this let us go back to Gods attributes one of which we said is THE JUST. If He is truly THE JUST it would then be illogical if someone tells me that only the dead children of Muslims will go to heaven and all others will not, even though they had no say in who gives birth to them, or the mental capacity to distinguish between right and wrong at such a young age. God been able to create an animal that has eight heads each that is also half donkey and human though is not illogical for He is THE CREATOR who created me, you and all other animals in away He saw fit, hence it does not go against logic. It may of course go against science, but in Islam science is not our conscience. Please remember peter I never said Jesus(peace be upon) rising from the dead was illogical, what I said was your concept of sin and atonement was not logical to me, and that’s when you switched topics on me and started to quote from the Bible and Quran.
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You can pretend logic is whatever you wish it to be. But if you want to create your own definition for it, then you need to create your own word for your personal definition, since Muhammad's fanciful flight is the opposite of what logic is. In other words, your use of the word logic, is illogical! :)
I'll wait for you to reply to to the post on shirk before moving forward. I enlarged and bolded the question so you couldn't miss it.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3485.msg14525#msg14525
I'm looking forward to eventually going back through much of this thread point by point.
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In Islam Shirk or idolatry means taking anything for a conscience other than God. What one takes for a conscience is what they have faith or trust in above everything else, because that is what he/she will weigh every decision against to decide whether or not it is right-wrong, moral-immoral, ethical-unethical and so on. There is no religion in existence today or in the past that has ever denied the existence of the one and true God, therefore it doesn’t matter if we believe in the existence of the one and only true God, what we choose for a conscience decides whether or not we are engaged in idol worship or not. Take for instance a man who claims to believe in the existence of God, but carries a small symbol or idol around their neck or in their pocket that they pray to when in a dilemma, believing that that symbol will bring them closer to their lord. This is idol worship for this person has placed their trust in another other than God, and has sought guidance in another other than God. Why this is a grievous sin I can explain later if you wish but for the point I am trying to make now this should suffice.
Hi Peter,
Assigning partners to God is what we call idol worship in Islam. You can’t give your own meaning to verses and base your arguments on that my friend, its illogical. In other words you can’t set your own rules and then be judge and executioner!
For your information we are not even allowed to pray to Muhammad (SAW), or refer to him as anything other than a normal human being, with human emotions and desires who was sent with a message, and thus strengthened with the Holy Spirit. We are not allowed spiritual leaders; every man is responsible and accountable for his actions to a God who is forgiving and merciful. It is through His Grace we believe we will make it to heaven as long as we combine faith with effort to do good.
Again for your information even when and after the verse in question was revealed many who were involve with Shirk came to the prophet and accepted Islam. What you’re suggesting in fact is so illogical that its bordering on the ridiculous, because if what you are suggesting is true than no one would have been Muslims.
Assigning partners to God which means taking something far a conscience other than God is shirk. You also want me to tell you whether or not Christians are involved in Shirk. In my religion Peter only God can judge, for each person is only accountable for himself and how well he behaves with others, hence what you do is between you and your God, only you can answer that question. As a Muslim I am only asked to remind you what God expects of all of us. But if you’re interested in what God says about the Jews and Christians I have selected some verses for you:
They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!
"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62, 5:69, and many other verses).
"...and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82).
"O you who believe! Be helpers of God -- as Jesus the son of Mary said to the Disciples, 'Who will be my helpers in (the work of) God?' Said the disciples, 'We are God's helpers!' Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved. But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed" (61:14).
"If only they [i.e. Christians] had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil" (5:66).
"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4:171).
Most of the companions of the prophet including those closest to him who accepted Islam were engaged in idol worship, so no Peter, the verse you quoted does not and cannot mean God does not forgive idol worship.
It has nothing to do with idol worship. It has to do with assigning partners to Allah. Read it again and I will help you try to provide a straight answer this time.
4.048 Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.
That says that Allah "forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him" period.
The sin being discussed would be a sin more "heinous" than any other sin, since "He forgiveth anything else".
Here's how your brethren put it in website after website: "The sin of shirk is to associate partners with Allah, basically this means to set up idols and false deities alongside Allah, granting them equal status to Allah, and to give them actions which are only reserved for God alone, such as worshipping them, making oaths to them, having fear and hope in them, and to sacrifice things in their name. All of this constitutes shirk, an example is the case of Jesus, those who set him up as a God, and invoke on him and pray to him are guilty of shirk, they are guilty of setting up a partner to the true God Allah."
So when a Christian confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, or even prays in Jesus name, has he committed the ONLY unforgivable, and absolutely most heinous sin, according to Muhammad. Isn't that right?
Otherwise the prophet (peace be upon him) would have been telling his closest companions that they are destined to hell. What it means is if you are a Muslim and choose something for a conscience other than God be it an idol, religious leader, prophet than you have died in a state of disbelieve and not as a Muslim, therefore you are not worthy of forgiveness or Gods grace. Personal responsibility is paramount in Islam and we cant give that over to anything or anyone.
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Hi Peter,
Assigning partners to God is what we call idol worship in Islam. You can’t give your own meaning to verses and base your arguments on that my friend, its illogical. In other words you can’t set your own rules and then be judge and executioner!
For your information we are not even allowed to pray to Muhammad (SAW), or refer to him as anything other than a normal human being, with human emotions and desires who was sent with a message, and thus strengthened with the Holy Spirit. We are not allowed spiritual leaders; every man is responsible and accountable for his actions to a God who is forgiving and merciful. It is through His Grace we believe we will make it to heaven as long as we combine faith with effort to do good.
Again for your information even when and after the verse in question was revealed many who were involve with Shirk came to the prophet and accepted Islam. What you’re suggesting in fact is so illogical that its bordering on the ridiculous, because if what you are suggesting is true than no one would have been Muslims.
Assigning partners to God which means taking something far a conscience other than God is shirk. You also want me to tell you whether or not Christians are involved in Shirk. In my religion Peter only God can judge, for each person is only accountable for himself and how well he behaves with others, hence what you do is between you and your God, only you can answer that question. As a Muslim I am only asked to remind you what God expects of all of us. But if you’re interested in what God says about the Jews and Christians I have selected some verses for you:
They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!
"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62, 5:69, and many other verses).
"...and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82).
"O you who believe! Be helpers of God -- as Jesus the son of Mary said to the Disciples, 'Who will be my helpers in (the work of) God?' Said the disciples, 'We are God's helpers!' Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved. But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed" (61:14).
"If only they [i.e. Christians] had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil" (5:66).
"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4:171).
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Assigning partners to God which means taking something far a conscience other than God is shirk. You also want me to tell you whether or not Christians are involved in Shirk. In my religion Peter only God can judge, for each person is only accountable for himself and how well he behaves with others, hence what you do is between you and your God, only you can answer that question.
You are confusing judgment of persons, with being able to judge what sin is. I'm not asking about judging persons, but judging sin.
The fact is, that the quotes that you cite, and all of the commentaries of the followers of Muhammad indicate, unequivocally, that according to Muhammad alone, when a Christian confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, it constitutes the only unforgivable sin, and a sin worse than, for example, the mass murder of those school children of a few weeks back. Each and every Christian throughout the last 2,000 years is guilty of Muhammad's only unforgivable sin. A sin worse than mass murder or child rape.
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
You earlier suggested that Muhammad's "Allah" is a just God. Does that strike you as being the work of a just God? That for a person to pray in Jesus name would constitute a sin worse than mass murder or child rape?
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Or the exact opposite perhaps something more along the line of the idea of a, 7th century, SW Arabian desert dweller, inspired by a jealous opposite of YHWH?
The one true God of the scriptures YHWH, revealed Himself to mankind over a period of 1600 years, through the record of revelation of all of His prophets and witnesses, that His people have followed through two covenants, for 3500 years.
Yet Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel. Thereby deceiving his followers into rejecting the blood of the Lamb of God that would save them. Jesus is revealed as God's Son.
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
No Christian for 2,000 years has denied that Jesus is the Son of God, or they simply wouldn't be Christian. For a Christian to deny that Jesus is the Son of God, and God His Father, would be impossible in the light of the hundreds of verses that proclaim it.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=611.0
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=610.0
Yet you reject the 1600 year record of revelation of the one true God YHWH to mankind, to follow the exact opposite, through the stand-alone, 7th century record, of a lone SW Arabian desert dweller. And why? Because of any evidence? No but purely because Muhammad told his followers to follow him.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2656.0
That's why for you:
.....nothing can be more subjective than right and wrong.
Which is the exact opposite for those of us that are filled with the Spirit of the sinless Lamb of God.
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You have mostly responded to my previous post by using quotes from the bible, in what I believe is an effort to support your point of view. The problem with that though is as much as I respect the Bible and value my relationship with many good people who are Christians, I don’t believe the Bible is anywhere close to been the Word of God, just as am sure you also don’t believe what I believe in is anywhere even close to the words of God, so how can you use what I don’t believe in to respond to my points?
By Muhammad's 7th century the Gospel had been translated into every popular language in the known world, had been copied tens of thousands of times (some suggest a hundred thousand), and had been read all over the known world for centuries. Thus the Gospel of Muhammad's day, is necessarily the same Gospel we have today, or tens of thousands of copies in all those languages would have all had to have been erased, and then uniformly changed!
In that same 7th century Muhammad said:
Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/
So are you suggesting that Muhammad was simply that ignorant to have given, what you apparently can only conclude was, such foolish advice? Perhaps that 21st century Muslims are just smarter than he was?
Yet the whole subject of the Gospel is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah, the Lamb of God, who saves all from sin who have faith in His atoning blood.
Hi Peter,
Again you are misquoting what a verse in the Nobel Quran means. I don’t blame you though because the translation of the Quran is not the Quran but just that a translation, and we often see things that we want to see even in what is not possible for them to be in.
Our prophet (SAW) was sent for the mercy of humanity, but unfortunately when he came the Jews and Christians denied his prophet hood, just as the Jews denied the prophet hood of Jesus (peace be upon him). This verse is asking them to look in their Bible which foretells the coming of Muhammad (SAW).
But unfortunately that's false, and the whole reason the Jews of Medina knew he was a false prophet, and didn't accept his false claims. They chose beheading rather than follow Muhammad, because they knew who to fear, and it wasn't Muhammad:
Ishaq:461 "After the siege exhausted and terrorized them, the Jews felt certain that the Apostle would not leave them until he had exterminated them. So they decided to talk to Ka'b Asad. He said, 'People of the Jews, you see what has befallen you. I shall propose three alternatives. Take whichever one you please.' He said, 'Swear allegiance to this man and accept him; for, by Allah, it has become clear to you that he is a prophet sent from Allah. It is he that you used to find mentioned in your scripture book. Then you will be secure in your lives, your property, your children, and your wives.'"
Ishaq:462/Tabari VIII:30 "The Jews said, 'We will never abandon the Torah or exchange it for the Qur'an.' Asad said, 'Since you reject this proposal of mine, then kill your children and your wives and go out to Muhammad and his Companions as men who brandish swords, leaving behind no impediments to worry you. If you die, you shall have left nothing behind; if you win you shall find other women and children.' The Jews replied, 'Why would we kill these poor ones? What would be the good of living after them?'"
This is why it says if they still deny it after it has been foretold than they are rebelling against their own scripture.
Nor is Muhammad prophesied in the Gospel, except in verses like these:
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
And more specific to Muhammad:
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
I am not going to quote which verses in the bible foretell the coming of Muhammed because a simple Google search will reveal thousands of sites to you showing you this.
But all those thousands of sites are all the product of folks that have been brainwashed by Islamic so-called tradition, that was all created and put to the pen in the 7th - 10th centuries AD. Or they are victims of Greek sophist styled entertainers like the antichrist liar Ahmed Deedat.
You can find many more thousands of sites that will disabuse you of any absurd notion that that Muhammad was prophesied in scripture as a prophet. On a case by case basis of each of those phony claims. Indeed if Muhammad was a true prophet then all of the prophets and witnesses in the 1600 year record of revelation of YHWH to mankind are false. And the prophet Jesus chief among them.
I can help disabuse you of any notion of Muhammad being prophesied in scripture as well, except as a false prophet. THE false prophet. He can only be a false prophet because he proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel.
Please indulge us with one of your favorite examples and I'll demonstrate.
Keep in mind also that the Bible you are probably quoting from is a translation and not the actual Bible.
All translations of the Gospel reveal that Jesus was crucified, died and was resurrected, to save all mankind from dying to our sins, who have faith in His shed blood. All translations of the Gospel include hundreds of verses that proclaim Jesus is the Son of God and God His Father.
Sorry my friend, Muhammad proclaimed that Christians should "judge by what Allah hath revealed" in the Gospel, and the whole subject is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah.
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Hi Peter,
Now you are not only blatantly giving meanings to verses you obviously have no clue what they mean but also choosing what you want to see in my posts. I have already defined and explained to you what constitutes shirk, is that not judging what sin is, or would you rather I judge all Christians by declaring them idol worshippers?
Please go back and read my posts free of emotions. Emotions tend to blind us from objectively taking in information.
Please my friend understand that just because we allow ourselves to open our minds and view ideas through the eyes of other peoples does not mean we agree with them, but simply opens the way for understanding and mutual respect.
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Hi Peter,
Now you are not only blatantly giving meanings to verses you obviously have no clue what they mean but also choosing what you want to see in my posts. I have already defined and explained to you what constitutes shirk, is that not judging what sin is, or would you rather I judge all Christians by declaring them idol worshippers?
Please go back and read my posts free of emotions. Emotions tend to blind us from objectively taking in information.
I realize what's going on in your heart, which is why I asked the question. How indeed could a just God suggest that confessing that Jesus is the Son of God, would constitute a sin worse than child rape or cold blooded mass murder?
4.048 Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.
The following is from your brethren from many sites. I'm sorry but you don't happen to be the sole arbiter of Islam, let alone I tire a bit of your creating your own language, like attempting to redefine logic, when I pointed out how illogical it is for you to believe Muhammad's tall tales. I showed you, and you showed me, the germane verses from Muhammad. No need to add a cloud of words in efforts to obfuscate.
"The sin of shirk is to associate partners with Allah, basically this means to set up idols and false deities alongside Allah, granting them equal status to Allah, and to give them actions which are only reserved for God alone, such as worshipping them, making oaths to them, having fear and hope in them, and to sacrifice things in their name. All of this constitutes shirk, an example is the case of Jesus, those who set him up as a God, and invoke on him and pray to him are guilty of shirk, they are guilty of setting up a partner to the true God Allah."
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jhn 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
And all that is done to this very day, in Jesus' name. And you seem to have missed a verse from the last post:
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
According to Muhammad then, all Christians throughout the last nearly 2,000 years, are guilty of the only unforgivable sin of shirk. A sin even less forgivable, than child rape or mass murder, which can be forgiven.
Would you describe that as the law of a just God?
Do you confess that Jesus is the Son of God? You can't, can you. So can't we see from the scriptures that He cannot dwell in you, nor you in He? You don't believe in the Son of God or His shed blood, solely because you believe in, and follow, Muhammad alone.
In fact Muhammad curses me and commands you to fight against the "people of the book":
Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
Did it ever strike you as peculiar, that Muhammad filled his followers with complete resolve, as to what to DENY, DISbelieve and REJECT? To deny the Son of God, to disbelieve His crucifixion, and reject the atoning shed blood of the Lamb of God.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=628.0
Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
You see, for a Christian to testify to that would be committing pure blasphemy, because Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel.
Please my friend understand that just because we allow ourselves to open our minds and view ideas through the eyes of other peoples does not mean we agree with them, but simply opens the way for understanding and mutual respect.
This isn't about our eyes, but about truth, as revealed through our scriptures. Our mutual respect for each other doesn't alter the records that we follow.
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
I follow all of the prophets and witnesses as revealed in the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind, that His people have followed through two covenants, for 3500 years.
You follow the heavily abrogated (http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0), 23 year, 7th century record, of Muhammad alone, who proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the scriptures.
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses (http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=219.0), and [in] the prophets (http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm), and [in] the psalms (http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm), concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
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Hi Peter,
Fanaticism as I mentioned to you earlier is when we allow our heart or emotions to think for us rather than our mind. Try as you may though you cannot get me to disparage my fellow Christian brethren, because my friend you too don’t represent Christianity. In fact we are taught that no one can represent Gods religion except God. This is why we have no excommunication, or confessions of sin. Everyone’s relationship with God is deeply personal and only He can judge.
Now let’s go back to the question at hand which you have not answered by the way, but rather avoided through biblical quotations: Do you worship the one and only true God (God conscience)? Simple answer with a definition of worship will do please.
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Hi Peter,
Fanaticism as I mentioned to you earlier is when we allow our heart or emotions to think for us rather than our mind.
That's why I relied on the records from our respective religions to speak for me.
Try as you may though you cannot get me to disparage my fellow Christian brethren, ........
We may be brothers in humanity, as in brothers under Adam.
However we are not brothers in Christ Jesus, because you reject the whole subject of the Gospel and the whole purpose of the Messiah as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses, to follow Muhammad alone.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Eph 6:23 Peace [be] to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
But you could become my brother, as so many of your former brethren have, that have come into relationship with Christ Jesus. Why don't you take a moment to view some of their testimonies at this link?
http://www.youtube.com/user/Muslims4Jesus
1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
........ because my friend you too don’t represent Christianity.
That's why I have relied on the 1600 year record of revelation of YHWH as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses to do it for me.
1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; ("Greeks" indicating unsaved Gentiles)
Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
In fact we are taught that no one can represent Gods religion except God.
And He represented Himself through all of His prophets and witnesses, as revealed through His 1600 year record to mankind, that His people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years.
This is why we have no excommunication, or confessions of sin. Everyone’s relationship with God is deeply personal and only He can judge.
Now let’s go back to the question at hand which you have not answered by the way, but rather avoided through biblical quotations: Do you worship the one and only true God (God conscience)? Simple answer with a definition of worship will do please.
Yes of course, while setting aside your (God conscience) manufactured term (that you seemed to want to use to explain how you could claim as logical the belief that Muhammad rode to Jerusalem on a flying animal and prayed in a temple that had been torn down 500 years earlier).
I believe in one God because my scriptures proclaim it:
Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. 31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
And I worship Him in the name of my Lord and Savior - through which God manifest or revealed Himself - Jesus Christ.
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
I pray to Him and thank Him for saving me. I am in constant relationship with my omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent God. So I can pray to Him any time any where. Very much the opposite of prostrating toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca to do so.
Now please answer a question for me. Do you believe God has a Spirit, as do Jews and Christians?
Exodus 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
Sura 15.29: "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."
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Hi Peter,
Thanks for the invitation to join your religion, obviously you are very passionate about it (whether you understand it or not is besides the point) so I take that as a sign that you care :). I would of course have to refuse for my heart is filled with the love of the one and only God, who cares and loves me so much that He personally has assured me of direct access to Him, when ever and wherever I choose. I come to Him walking He says and He will come running, I ask and He promises to answer, I repent and He promises forgiveness. All this and all He asks in return is I live my life here in the healthiest way possible and fulfill my duty towards my family, neighbors, community and ensure that my behavior including what I say and do is a source of benefit to them and not Harm. He admonished me against taking for a conscience other than He, be it science, my culture, emotions, desire... for that would amount to ascribing partners unto Hm or shirk. How can I not heed such a warning from one who has shown me so much love and care? How can I steep so low as to worship that which is of human creation or a figment of imagination and not honor the invitation of The Mighty, The Just, The Beneficent, The Merciful?
Now I invite you Peter to the religion of Al-Islam or The Surrender. Surrender yourself, your worries, your past, your future... to Him. You do not need an intercessor or an intermediary-YOU HAVE DIRECT ACCESS!
Thanks for the debate my friend.
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Hi Peter,
Thanks for the invitation to join your religion, .......
You're welcome my friend. That's been an open invitation for almost 2,000 years now.
..... obviously you are very passionate about it (whether you understand it or not is besides the point) so I take that as a sign that you care :). I would of course have to refuse for my heart is filled with the love of the one and only God, who cares and loves me so much that He personally has assured me of direct access to Him, when ever and wherever I choose.
Then why do your brethren prostrate themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca to do so?
I come to Him walking He says and He will come running, I ask and He promises to answer, I repent and He promises forgiveness. All this and all He asks in return is I live my life here in the healthiest way possible and fulfill my duty towards my family, neighbors, community and ensure that my behavior including what I say and do is a source of benefit to them and not Harm.
I've no doubt that you try to live an upright life. Unfortunately we are all human and prone to sin. Sin, no matter how much or how little, separates us from a perfect God. That's why He offered us a solution through the shed blood of the perfect sacrifice of the spotless Lamb of God.
He admonished me against taking for a conscience other than He, be it science, my culture, emotions, desire... for that would amount to ascribing partners unto Hm or shirk. How can I not heed such a warning from one who has shown me so much love and care? How can I steep so low as to worship that which is of human creation or a figment of imagination and not honor the invitation of The Mighty, The Just, The Beneficent, The Merciful?
Now I invite you Peter to the religion of Al-Islam or The Surrender. Surrender yourself, your worries, your past, your future... to Him. You do not need an intercessor or an intermediary-YOU HAVE DIRECT ACCESS!
The question is, direct access to who, since Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel. Who really met him in that deep dark cave that made him feel like he was trying to squeeze the life out of him three times? Who could eventually deceive someone into proclaiming the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel?
2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Thanks for the debate my friend.
Why did you run away from my last question my friend? Do you believe God has a Spirit as the bible and Quran teach, or not?
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Hi Peter,
You read a verse from the Quran that you have no idea what it means, so you give it your own meaning and than you expect me to give an answer to what is a product of your ignorance. In other words you wish to create the rules and be judge, jury and executioner at the same time. What do I say to that?
Ruh in the Quran for your information is used to refer to:
1. The Angel Gabriel
2. Knowledge or divine energy
Again for your information Ruh is always preceded by AMR, which means command, which denotes Gods intention which is absolute whether in the form of knowledge or through the Arch Angel, and must happen as in the case of the Birth of Jesus (peace be upon him). This is a whole field of knowledge that involves understanding the difference between what God intends and what He wants as well as all the attributes of knowledge and intention.
You must realize peter that ignorance is a terrible thing and it is always better to ask, understand than pass judgement. Indeed the greatest knowledge is for one to admit they do not know and are willing to learn
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Hi Peter,
You read a verse from the Quran that you have no idea what it means, so you give it your own meaning and than you expect me to give an answer to what is a product of your ignorance. In other words you wish to create the rules and be judge, jury and executioner at the same time. What do I say to that?
Ruh in the Quran for your information is used to refer to:
1. The Angel Gabriel
Oh yea. "Allah's" partner.
2. Knowledge or divine energy
Again for your information Ruh is always preceded by AMR, which means command, which denotes Gods intention which is absolute whether in the form of knowledge or through the Arch Angel, and must happen as in the case of the Birth of Jesus (peace be upon him). This is a whole field of knowledge that involves understanding the difference between what God intends and what He wants as well as all the attributes of knowledge and intention.
So then you don't believe that God put something of His Spirit in you, as He does Jews and Christians, I feel so sorry for you. That also explains how you understand that ".....nothing can be more subjective than right and wrong."
Seems peculiar too:
Sura 32.9: But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!
If "Allah" didn't have a Spirit as the God of the scriptures does, then how could he breathe something of it into people?
He would first have to have a spirit, in order to be able to breathe something of it, into anyone.
Sura 16:102 Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
And here we see even Muhammad recognizing the Holy Spirit of the bible even as providing a guide.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay! Chapter #2, Verse #87
The very same Holy Spirit that Christians recognize. These verses are obviously not a reference to the angel Gabriel.
So it's becoming ever more clear just who is not understanding that God has a Spirit.
Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit.....Chapter #5, Verse #110
How are you going to try to run and hide from that, my friend?
Does God have a Spirit that He can impart into mankind or not?
If God doesn't have a Spirit to begin with, how can He impart it into anybody? Why don't you try simply being honest with yourself this time?
You must realize peter that ignorance is a terrible thing and it is always better to ask, understand than pass judgement. Indeed the greatest knowledge is for one to admit they do not know and are willing to learn[/b]
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Definitely not in the way the Jews or Christians[/b] believe, which is why in this instance I deliberately used divine energy instead of Holy Spirit. By now I know you my friend. The meaning of Holy spirit that you use is not the same as we use for creation. For creation Holy spirit or ruh means divine energy. The Holy spirit as used in Christianity is closer to the ruh we believe only Prophets are strengthened with. That is why I explained to you that ruh is preceded by Amr, which denotes Gods intention in the instance it is been refereed.
Many like to suggest that the three religions are similar, something I totally disagree. In my humble opinion Judaism and Christianity have always been an element of the culture of its adherents hence, like all elements of culture they change to suite the desires of the adherents.Islam on the other hand is a way of life that produces based on laws and therefore produces culture.
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Using all bold font is inefficive and only makes a post harder to read. Better to use it for emphasis.
Definitely not in the way the Jews or Christians] believe, which is why in this instance I deliberately used divine energy instead of Holy Spirit. By now I know you my friend. The meaning of Holy spirit that you use is not the same as we use for creation. For creation Holy spirit or ruh means divine energy.
Come on, my friend. Why don't you quote me the suras or verses that cite "divine energy" in the Quran or the scriptures. You are only trying to hide from the term the scriptures use, and I think we both know why.
The Holy spirit as used in Christianity is closer to the ruh we believe only Prophets are strengthened with.
That's so sad. But in any event, you just admitted that you believe that God has a Spirit that He imparts into prophets.
So you admit that you believe that God has a Spirit that He strengthens prophets with.
That is why I explained to you that ruh is preceded by Amr, which denotes Gods intention in the instance it is been refereed.
Many like to suggest that the three religions are similar, something I totally disagree. In my humble opinion Judaism and Christianity have always been an element of the culture of its adherents hence, like all elements of culture they change to suite the desires of the adherents.Islam on the other hand is a way of life that produces based on laws and therefore produces culture.
My friend, do you think God wanted you, to keep trying to obfuscate and deny, that He has a Spirit?
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
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The Holy spirit as used in Christianity is closer to the ruh we believe only Prophets are strengthened with. That is why I explained to you that ruh is preceded by Amr, which denotes Gods intention in the instance it is been refereed.
However it is you believe God manifests Himself through His Spirit, if God didn't have a Spirit, He obviously could not manifest Himself through it. Not to the prophets or in any other way.
So just because you believe that God has a Spirit, through which He manifests Himself to mankind, doesn't mean that you believe in two Gods does it?
Same for Jews and Christians.
Here are some verses that regard the Spirit of God:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2999.0
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Good morning Peter,
I will today take a big step and quote from your Holy Book The Bible. But please understand that I am not a scholar of the Bible so forgive my ignorance if it shows.
In the Bible it states: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.†I believe what Christians have taken to mean by the “word†is Jesus (peace be upon him) the son of blessed Mary.
In the Quran the “word†refers to Gods command “Be†as in the following:
“She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.â€
“The Originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.â€
We were taught that prior to the creation of the universe and everything in it there was God, He who has no beginning and end, who then “commanded†the creation of the universe and everything else in it, with the “word†Be! And it was. Gods command connotes His intention, embodied in the “word†(be) which contains all the information needed for fulfilling what was intended. The “word†is as the words “clean your room†uttered as a command to a child to go tidy their room. Ones uttered the parent need not specify what goes where or how, or hold the Childs hand to guide them through the cleaning. The child hears the words, obeys the command and tidies the room, because the child already possesses the knowledge of how to do so either through observation and/or through direct instruction from the parents. So too is the command of God, in the “word†was the knowledge of how to create the universe (s) and everything in it, just as a seed containing all information(knowledge) or DNA of a particular plant so that one’s it is planted it metamorphose into that plant. The universe and everything found in it came about through this word or knowledge which as a seed is still metamorphosing and will do so until the end of time.
We believe God manifests Himself to people through His word or creations so that they may and investigate and learn from it for their benefit as well as gain in appreciation of His majesty, Power, and love that He has for His creations, so that they may believe. It is out of love and mercy that he did not just poof bring everything into existence but rather through knowledge so that we may decipher, learn and use it to advance our living here on earth. That’s why we are able to study reproduction and come up with cloning, which has the potential of curing cancer and many other terrible illnesses.
We do not believe that God manifests Himself to the prophets or anyone through the Holy Spirit but rather strengthens them through it. See Peter, we believe that Muhammad (peace be upon him) the slave of God and mercy of mankind, was sent to correct what has been corrupted from Christianity just as Jesus (peace be upon him) the miracle of God was sent to correct what had been corrupted from Judaism. This is also what I meant when I mentioned to you earlier that the two religions may use the same terms and names but are in fact very different.
Of course knowledge is with God so may He forgive any mistakes which I may have made in conveying this to you, but to find out more check Ibn Kathir’s tafsir on the topic.
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I'll get to the rest of your post after this point.
We do not believe that God manifests Himself to the prophets or anyone through the Holy Spirit but rather strengthens them through it.
Do you believe the Holy Spirit gives the prophets bigger muscles? Of course not. You believe the Holy Spirit provides guidance and understanding in those prophets. So do I. You would likely even agree that the "strengthening" you are referring to is aptly described here:
Exodus 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
But the simple fact of the matter is, that just as the Quran indicates, Muhammad believed in the Holy Spirit and you yourself believe in the Holy Spirit. Thus you believe in two parts of what is referred to as the "trinity", though that terms does not occur in scripture - because it doesn't need to. You believe in God and His Spirit.
Part of the confusion comes from Muhammad apparently having been clueless as to just what the "trinity" is:
Surah 5:116 - And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
Muhammad probably got his misunderstanding from Roman Catholic veneration of Mary. Which incidentally, Muslims do right alongside Roman Catholics, at "Our Lady of Fatimah" today.
Unlike Muhammad's false idea, nobody ever worshiped Mary as a god, nor does Mary have anything to do with the trinity.
But it cannot be denied that since you believe in God and that He has a Spirit - you believe in the existence of the Holy Spirit as Muhammad did - then you believe in two parts of the "godhead". Two parts of what has been dubbed the "trinity".
So to the title of this thread, you and I both believe in one God, and we both believe He has a Spirit.
Here's an example of the power of the Spirit of God:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FelW46AGu4
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Good morning Peter,
I will today take a big step and quote from your Holy Book The Bible. But please understand that I am not a scholar of the Bible so forgive my ignorance if it shows.
The bible is intended to be easily understood by all those that approach it with with an open heart and a contrite spirit and pray for guidance therein, while putting their effort into understanding, as opposed to putting their effort into misunderstanding. It is difficult enough to get started, for those that stand outside the Spirit of God, without putting effort into misunderstanding:
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
In the Bible it states: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.â€
Let me add a little more context:
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
I believe what Christians have taken to mean by the “word†is Jesus .......
Because that is what the scriptures I just included indicate.
....... (peace be upon him) the son of blessed Mary.
You also believe He was the prophesied Messiah - the anointed one - and the only person ever to be conceived by a virgin by the will of God, remains sinless, who healed the sick and even brought the dead back to life, and ascended bodily to heaven and has no earthly grave.
Yet Muhammad prevents his followers from making a distinction between Jesus and any other prophet. Does that strike you as odd? Should we be surprised that Muhammad didn't want to be compared with the sinless Messiah, based on Muhammad's behavior as it is revealed through your own books?
In the Quran the “word†refers to Gods command “Be†as in the following:
“She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.â€
“The Originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.â€
We were taught that prior to the creation of the universe and everything in it there was God, He who has no beginning and end, ........
Another concept Muhammad plagiarized from scripture:
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
God IS the beginning and the end. Now please note the prior verse Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
........ who then “commanded†the creation of the universe and everything else in it, with the “word†Be! And it was.
That isn't accurately plagiarized. Here is one of the things God said as He created the earth:
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=1&t=KJV#3
Gods command connotes His intention, embodied in the “word†(be) which contains all the information needed for fulfilling what was intended. The “word†is as the words “clean your room†uttered as a command to a child to go tidy their room. Ones uttered the parent need not specify what goes where or how, or hold the Childs hand to guide them through the cleaning. The child hears the words, obeys the command and tidies the room, because the child already possesses the knowledge of how to do so either through observation and/or through direct instruction from the parents. So too is the command of God, in the “word†was the knowledge of how to create the universe (s) and everything in it, just as a seed containing all information(knowledge) or DNA of a particular plant so that one’s it is planted it metamorphose into that plant. The universe and everything found in it came about through this word or knowledge which as a seed is still metamorphosing and will do so until the end of time.
We believe God manifests Himself to people through His word or creations so that they may and investigate and learn from it for their benefit as well as gain in appreciation of His majesty, Power, and love that He has for His creations, so that they may believe. It is out of love and mercy that he did not just poof bring everything into existence but rather through knowledge so that we may decipher, learn and use it to advance our living here on earth. That’s why we are able to study reproduction and come up with cloning, which has the potential of curing cancer and many other terrible illnesses.
We do not believe that God manifests Himself to the prophets or anyone through the Holy Spirit but rather strengthens them through it.
But Muslims also believe God revealed Himself to Moses, through the form a burning bush, and spoke to Moses:
"In Islam, the story of God’s encounter with Moses at the burning bush comes as
part of the larger Muslim narrative about Moses. The material on Moses in the Qur’Än is
substantial: some 36 of the Qur’Än’s 114 sÅ«ras mention Moses in 50 separate pericopes.
The episode of the burning bush appears in three different narratives. In the first
canonical account (Q20.10-48), Moses is attracted to a fire (nÄr) while traveling with his
family in Midian. Moses tells his family to stay behind while he goes to investigate the
fire. He adds that he hopes to bring a brand from the fire, and to find guidance there.
When he arrives at the fire, a voice calls to him: “Moses, I am your Lord; put off your
shoes; you are in the holy valley, ṬuwÄ. I myself have chosen you; so listen closely to
what is inspired. Truly I am AllÄh; there is no god but I; therefore serve me, and perform
the prayer of my remembrance.†(Q20.12-14)
http://quranandinjil.org/pdfs/The-Burning-Bush.pdf
Now my question is this. Is Muhammad's "Allah" powerful enough, that if he so chose to, instead of making a bush burn, could he instantly create the physical form of a man and move into the house next door to you and chat with you, while simultaneously being God in all the other respects in which you understand Him?
Could He create 10 such men and move in next door to ten different people and chat with them all at the same time, while still being entirely God?
Or is Muhammad's "Allah" too powerless to be able to say "be" and accomplish exactly that, if He so chose to?
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Hi Pete
Your logic astounds me!
Let me ask you this: Is your God able to decide through everybody in hell, and I mean everybody-Christians, Muslims, Babies... regardless of faith? Does He possess the power for such a decision or not? A simple yes or no please
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Hi Pete
Your logic astounds me!
Let me ask you this: Is your God able to decide to throw everybody into hell, and I mean everybody-Christians, Muslims, Babies... regardless of faith? Does He possess the power for such a decision or not? A simple yes or no please
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Hi Pete
Your logic astounds me!
It's a simple question.
Let me ask you this: Is your God able to decide to throw everybody into hell, and I mean everybody-Christians, Muslims, Babies... regardless of faith? Does He possess the power for such a decision or not? A simple yes or no please
The question you posed is a dichotomy, because in doing so, God would be going directly against His own Word. Going against Himself, and since He is perfect, that's not possible.
The scenario I posed would not require God to go against His Word or Himself.
So why don't you try an answer rather than ask an unrelated question instead?
God made Himself known to Moses through that burning bush, while remaining fully God the whole while He was speaking to Moses, didn't He? Doing so didn't make Him any less God, did it?
Like in the case of the burning bush, if God so chose to, could He instead reveal Himself as a man in the flesh, while at the same remaining fully God?
A yes or no answer is fine.
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EXACTLY: As you said you couldn't give an answer because it would go against the words given to you by God according your scripture.
For Him to take the form of a man, according to ours would be an abomination-a sin beyond any other that is unforgivable if one dies in that state, unless he or she repents and turns to the one and only lord.
As I mentioned to you earlier there is no religion that exists and that has ever existed that does not recognize the existence of the one and true God. Like you, what they claim and have always claimed is that either the spirit of God resides in the idol or image they make and worship, or that God has taken the form of what they worship. In my religion that is idolatry.
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EXACTLY: As you said you couldn't give an answer because it would go against the words given to you by God according your scripture.
For Him to take the form of a man.....
Let's take a look at the Torah and see who Abraham met one day:
Genesis 18:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=18&v=1&t=KJV#top) And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Checking Strong's definitions
And the LORD
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
03068 Y@hovah {yeh-ho-vaw'}
from 01961; TWOT - 484a; n pr dei
AV - LORD 6510, GOD 4, JEHOVAH 4, variant 1; 6519
Jehovah = "the existing One"
1) the proper name of the one true God
1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136
"LORD" translated from the Hebrew, "Jehovah" the "existing One", that is, God Himself "appeared" to Abraham.
Before the Jews surrendered to a doctrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton#In_later_Judaism) (after Solomon's temple burned down), in which men declared that the name Yahweh was too sacred to say or write, the tetragrammaton YHWH occurred in this spot, and in 6,827 other places (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton#Occurrences_and_uses) in Hebrew scripture. "YHWH" is the name of God.
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
Three "men" stood by him.
men
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
0582 'enowsh {en-oshe'}
from 0605; TWOT - 136a; n m
AV - man 520, certain 10, husbands 3, some 3, merchantmen 2,
persons 2, misc 24; 564
1) man, mortal man, person, mankind
1a) of an individual
1b) men (collective)
1c) man, mankind
So Abraham "bowed himself toward the ground,"
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
My Lord
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
0136 'Adonay {ad-o-noy'}
am emphatic form of 0113; TWOT - 27b; n m
AV - Lord 431, lord 2, God 1; 434
1) my lord, lord
1a) of men
1b) of God
2) Lord - title, spoken in place of Yahweh in Jewish display of reverence
As in the prior case with the name Jehovah substituting for Yahweh, the substitute title "Adonay" is used in this spot. It can mean Lord or lower case lord as in master. Whether Yahweh or Adonay occurred in the original Hebrew is obviously a moot point considering the context.
3 And said, My Lord, {Adonay} if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
Some suggest that the "man" in our passage was an angel but are we to believe that Abraham thought himself a "servant" of an angel, rather than Yahweh, particularly considering all the direct contact Abraham had with Yahweh?
Abraham continues....
4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: 5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
Water is not only fetched so these men can wash their feet, but Abraham offers the men food, and they accept.
8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set [it] before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
And so these men - one unquestionably being Yahweh Himself - did eat. Later in the passage we read...
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. {Jehovah (Yaweh)} 23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
So who has the power to destroy a city of men?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that [are] therein? 25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
Who was the "man", that Abraham recognized as God, that is "the Judge of all the earth"? The same one that dined.
26 And the LORD {Jehovah (Yaweh)} said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
Who had the power and authority to spare Sodom? The answer is again obvious. Abraham did not see God, but Abraham did have a face to face meeting with Yahewh as He manifest, or revealed Himself, in the flesh of a man. Just as He chose to revealed Himself through other "Christophanies" in the old testament, to Moses through a burning bush, and eventually in the person of Jesus Christ.
For Him to take the form of a man, according to ours .........
That would be according to Muhammad alone. Always being revealed as the exact opposite of the God of the bible.
We can see from the preceding that God did indeed manifest Himself in the flesh of a man to Abraham, and even ate and drank, and presumably washed His feet.
......... would be an abomination-a sin beyond any other that is unforgivable if one dies in that state, unless he or she repents and turns to the one and only lord.
Thus, according to Muhammad alone, as I pointed out previously this would mean that all Christians throughout the entirety of the last nearly 2,000 years are guilty of Muhammad's unforgivable sin.
Doesn't that begin to give you an idea as to who actually inspired Muhammad?
As I inquired earlier, do you believe a just God would suggest that praying in Jesus name, would constitute a greater sin than child rape or cold blooded mass murder?
As I mentioned to you earlier there is no religion that exists and that has ever existed that does not recognize the existence of the one and true God. Like you, what they claim and have always claimed is that either the spirit of God resides in the idol or image they make and worship, or that God has taken the form of what they worship. In my religion that is idolatry.
It's so sad that you want to stay outside the spirit of God, even as you understand that the Holy Spirit strengthened the prophets. :(
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Food For Thought
After a heated exchange between Jesus and a group of aggressive Pharisees, in which the latter accuses by implication the former of being “born of fornication†(John 8:41), Jesus unleashes a whirlwind rebuttal culminating with the claim “Before Abraham was, I am†(John 8:58). The enraged Jews, apparently having no interest in the Law’s due process, are immediately compelled to pick up stones and deal with the gross blasphemer themselves. Alas, Jesus slips through the very midst of them and so “passed by†unharmed (John 8:59). It is interesting to note that before Jesus drives his final nail in the proverbial Pharisaic coffin, so to speak, he stated that Abraham rejoiced to see his (Jesus’) day, and when he saw it, he was glad (John 8:56). The Jews retort by reminding the young Nazarene that he had not even reached his fiftieth year, how could he have seen Abraham? – A man who strutted the earth eighteen centuries earlier. The problem in obvious: Jesus never said that he had seen Abraham, but only that Abraham had seen his, meaning Jesus’, day. This misunderstanding, however, is summarily overshadowed by the next verse in which Jesus ostensibly claims to possess ontological precedence over the ancient Patriarch of the Jews, hence the ensuing provocation to pick up stones.
Both the Jews, as well as the vast majority of Christian theologians, since the composition of the Fourth Gospel have qualified this statement as a claim of deity made by Jesus. John, however, who is no doubt extremely versed in the Septuagint, chose not to include in the proclamation of Christ the crucial second half of the statement given to Moses by God in Exodus chapter three at the burning bush, where the Hebrew is translated á¼Î³á½½ εἰμι ὠὤν, meaning literally, “I am He who is.†John tells his audience that Jesus only said, “πÏὶν ἈβÏαὰμ γενέσθαι á¼Î³á½¼ εἰμί†(Before Abraham was I am), without the highly mystical ὠὤν, which consists of the masculine singular nominative article and the nominative active participle of εἰμί.
In other words, John elects to leave off the divine aspect of Exodus 3:14, namely “The one who is,†thus causing Jesus to fall noticeably short of possessing absolute pre-eternal existence. Jesus did exist in some capacity before Abraham, but not in an absolute or essential sense, or as the followers of the anathematized Arius (256 – 336 CE)10 used to proclaim “ayn pote hote ouk ayn†meaning “there was a time when he was not.†Arius affirmed Christ’s “pre-existence†in relative terms and said that the Son’s causal subordination (from Origen of Alexandria, d. 253 CE) became also the Son’s temporal subordination and essential inferiority.11 Certainly Arius knew of Jesus’ statement in John but was simply not convinced that it constituted a divine claim. Hence the above Muslim exegesis of John 8:58 finds unmistakably established precedence in pre-Islamic times, amongst the very group which prompted Constantine to call the first ever ecumenical Synod no less.
In addition to this, the fact that John’s three evangelical predecessors do not even record the statement yet are very intent on informing their readers about Jesus’ choice of conveyance while entering Jerusalem, has led many scholars of the New Testament, Bart Ehrman included, to conclude that the authenticity of such so-called “I am statements†are highly suspect. Jesus riding a donkey into Jerusalem certainly fulfilled ancient prophecy, but I cannot possibly imagine why Matthew, a supposed ear and eye-witness to Christ, would not record any of the crucial Johannine “divine†claims of Jesus if in fact the latter made such statements.
Copied from: "Prophet Muhammed In The Bible", By Ali Ataei. Available free
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Food For Thought
Indeed.After a heated exchange between Jesus and a group of aggressive Pharisees, in which the latter accuses by implication the former of being “born of fornication†(John 8:41), Jesus unleashes a whirlwind rebuttal culminating with the claim “Before Abraham was, I am†(John 8:58). The enraged Jews, apparently having no interest in the Law’s due process, are immediately compelled to pick up stones and deal with the gross blasphemer themselves.
Read it khalib, it has nothing to do with his "having no interest in the Law's due process". Nor would that be a stoning offense. That's ridiculous! They wanted to stone Jesus for the blasphemy of declaring his divinity. He not only declared that He was from before Abraham, but that He is the "I AM". That is how the name of the the existent one, God's name translates:
Exd 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
God's name is found in the tetragrammaton YHWH, which means I AM. The name of the one true God of the scriptures has never been, and will never be, the name of the Arabian pagan's deity "Allah". Nor does "Allah" mean "I AM" in Arabic or any other language. Regardless of what misguided Arabic speaking Christians might have been fooled into parroting from the Van Dyke bible.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2613.0
Alas, Jesus slips through the very midst of them and so “passed by†unharmed (John 8:59). It is interesting to note that before Jesus drives his final nail in the proverbial Pharisaic coffin, so to speak, he stated that Abraham rejoiced to see his (Jesus’) day, and when he saw it, he was glad (John 8:56). The Jews retort by reminding the young Nazarene that he had not even reached his fiftieth year, how could he have seen Abraham? – A man who strutted the earth eighteen centuries earlier. The problem in obvious: Jesus never said that he had seen Abraham, but only that Abraham had seen his, meaning Jesus’, day. This misunderstanding, however, is summarily overshadowed by the next verse in which Jesus ostensibly claims to possess ontological precedence over the ancient Patriarch of the Jews, hence the ensuing provocation to pick up stones.
Both the Jews, as well as the vast majority of Christian theologians, since the composition of the Fourth Gospel have qualified this statement as a claim of deity made by Jesus. John, however, who is no doubt extremely versed in the Septuagint, chose not to include in the proclamation of Christ the crucial second half of the statement given to Moses by God in Exodus chapter three at the burning bush, where the Hebrew is translated á¼Î³á½½ εἰμι ὠὤν, meaning literally, “I am He who is.†John tells his audience that Jesus only said, “πÏὶν ἈβÏαὰμ γενέσθαι á¼Î³á½¼ εἰμί†(Before Abraham was I am), without the highly mystical ὠὤν, which consists of the masculine singular nominative article and the nominative active participle of εἰμί.
From John's prophetic vision in Revelation:
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=570.0
In other words, John elects to leave off the divine aspect of Exodus 3:14, namely “The one who is,†thus causing Jesus to fall noticeably short of possessing absolute pre-eternal existence.
Filthy liar with mouth full of blasphemy.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
The "one" in that verse is in the neuter gender, meaning of one essence. That's why the Jews wanted to stone Him again for the blasphemy of again declaring His divinity.
Jesus did exist in some capacity before Abraham, but not in an absolute or essential sense, or as the followers of the anathematized Arius (256 – 336 CE)10 used to proclaim “ayn pote hote ouk ayn†meaning “there was a time when he was not.†Arius affirmed Christ’s “pre-existence†in relative terms and said that the Son’s causal subordination (from Origen of Alexandria, d. 253 CE) became also the Son’s temporal subordination and essential inferiority.11 Certainly Arius knew of Jesus’ statement in John but was simply not convinced that it constituted a divine claim. Hence the above Muslim exegesis of John 8:58 finds unmistakably established precedence in pre-Islamic times, amongst the very group which prompted Constantine to call the first ever ecumenical Synod no less.
In addition to this, the fact that John’s three evangelical predecessors do not even record the statement yet are very intent on informing their readers about Jesus’ choice of conveyance while entering Jerusalem, has led many scholars of the New Testament, Bart Ehrman included, to conclude that the authenticity of such so-called “I am statements†are highly suspect.
Nothing more than Greek Sophist styled antichrist Islamic lies.
And "I AM" is invoked in even in lots more instances regarding "I AM" than are even recognized by many Christians from English translations:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=108.0
(KJV) John 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am [he]. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. 6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground.
Why do you suppose Jesus declaring "I AM" would cause a tenth part of a legion of soldiers to fall over backwards?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=108.msg4729#msg4729
Greek sophist styled entertainers tickling your eyes and ears, just like the famous blaspheming antichrist Ahmed Deedat. Was Deedat correct, or lying, when he said that the First Epistle of John indicates that Muhammad was not antichrist? Let's explore it together.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=335.0
Jesus riding a donkey into Jerusalem certainly fulfilled ancient prophecy, but I cannot possibly imagine why Matthew, a supposed ear and eye-witness to Christ, would not record any of the crucial Johannine “divine†claims of Jesus if in fact the latter made such statements.
Copied from: "Prophet Muhammed In The Bible", By Ali Ataei. Available free
Your own blasphemy against the one true God is quite enough. And rather than just sit and nod your head to a foolish pack of lies by Islamist sophists, regarding the things of the Spirit of the one true God of the scriptures you know little to nothing about, I recommend you seek out truth and google up some Christian bible commentators to compare it to.
DO NOT waste our mutual time by copy and pasting the lies and blasphemy against the scriptures of others. Include only that which you are willing and able to defend yourself. Such tripe going forward will simply be sent off to spam.
I'll give you an example in the next post.
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For example I wrote and can defend the following:
See Peter, we believe that Muhammad (peace be upon him) the slave of God and mercy of mankind, was sent to correct what has been corrupted from Christianity just as Jesus (peace be upon him) the miracle of God was sent to correct what had been corrupted from Judaism.
Yet you have only one reason for speaking that blasphemy against the one true God and His scriptures, as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses in His 1600 year record, that His people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years.
That reason is Muhammad alone. The stand-alone word of a 7th century SW Arabian desert dwelling imperialistic murderer.
Who was further embellished by Islam's 8th - 10th century Islamic "tradition" creators.
We can know absolutely that Islam is false, not only because Muhammad's 23 year 7th century record proclaims the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel, but it is also absolutely unsupportable in the light of scripture, history, archaeology or geography.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0
This while the one God and His scriptures that you blaspheme, are well supported by history, archaeology, geography and even mathematically. Truth supported by truth and matters of fact.
This is also what I meant when I mentioned to you earlier that the two religions may use the same terms and names .......
That's false. The name of the one true God of the Scriptures is found in the tetragrammaton "YHWH", as it occurs nearly 7,000 times in scripture and in paleo-Hebrew engravings found, that date as early as 840 BC. In English it means "I AM" or the existent one.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2640.0
"Allah" does not mean "I AM" in Arabic or any other language, however the etymology of the name "Allah" suggests it was the name of Arabian pagan's moon god:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2265.0
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
..... but are in fact very different.
Far beyond "very different". Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel. This is how we can know that he was inspired by Satan - the opposer of God. Same spirit that met Muhammad in a cave and nearly squeezed the life out of him three times.
Same spirit behind the murder, mayhem, misery and terrorism Muhammad commanded, that has been perpetrated around the world for 1400 years, by his true followers. Over 20,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world, just since 9-11, by the true followers of one of the most consummate, and self- admitted terrorists in the history of mankind:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=731.0
Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them
Muhammad was the exact opposite of the sinless Messiah.
Bukhari:V5B59N459 "I entered the Mosque, saw Abu, sat beside him and asked about sex. Abu Said said, 'We went out with Allah's Apostle and we received female slaves from among the captives. We desired women and we loved to do coitus interruptus.'"
If your tendency is to accuse folks of "insulting Muhammad", we can see that it is your own books that do so. I merely point it out.
Muhammad commanded of his followers the exact opposite as that of Jesus:
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
Muhammad's followers prostrate themselves five times a day toward the very same black stone idol that the Quraish pagans venerated before Muhammad ever invented Islam.
Exactly what the one true God of the Jews and Christians prohibits His followers from doing.
Muhammad's followers are even compelled to travel to that black stone idol, and march around it 7 times as the pagan Arabian moon, sun, and star worshipers did, and even run back and forth between al-Safa and al-Marwah 7 times as the Arabian jinn-devil worshipers did.
Even some of Muhammad's closest followers hated performing the Sa'ee because they knew it was a purely pagan ritual:
Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed: 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " (2.158) (Sahih al-Bukhari 2 Book 26 710)
http://petewaldo.com/hajj___umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah
And as the verse itself indicates, the only reason Muhammad's followers engage in his thinly veneered pagan idol rituals - 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs - is because Muhammad told his followers to.
Of course knowledge is with God so may He forgive any mistakes which I may have made in conveying this to you, but to find out more check Ibn Kathir’s tafsir on the topic.
If you had remained ignorant to the truth, as perhaps your parents may remain, you may well have been better off. But you are beyond "mistakes" and instead preaching blasphemy against the one true God of the scriptures of Jews and Christians.
Now you said that the reason Muhammad told Christians to go by what is revealed in the Gospel is because Muhammad was prophesied in it.
I realize the reason he said that is because it was accompanied by all the rest of the drivel of his early Mecca days, and there was lots more he regretted saying that had to be recanted later like "no compulsion in religion", since a doctrine of abrogation is required for a whopping 71 out of only 114 Suras.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
Why don't you present an example of where Muhammad is prophesied in the Gospel. We have exposed many more examples of this Greek sophist styled nonsense, in another forum section:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=33.0
Or try this link:
"A Bible Commentary for Muslims"
http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/index.html
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When filmmaker Mel Gibson prepared his script for his film “The Passion of the Christ,†he must have found the Pshitta’s82 translation of Paraclete as “Paraqlayta†problematic for obvious reasons. It would have been awkward for an Aramaic-speaking Jesus, in the midst of a discourse with his Jewish disciples, to use a recognizable Greek word with a Semitic twist. He rather opted for the translation as it occurs in the Syriac lectionaries used by the Assyrian churches in Iraq, also known as the Ancient Apostolic Church of the East. In these texts, the word for Paraclete is rendered “Munahma,†which according to author Karen Armstrong, may be equivalent to the Arabic Ahmad, and certainly sounds as if they are derived from a common root. Therefore, the scene as it occurs in the film has “Jesus†say, “Do not be afraid, the Helper (Munahma) will come, who speaks the truth about God (Allah).†Nineteenth century Scottish orientalist William Muir, who once said that Islam is the “only undisguised and formidable antagonist of Christianity,†claimed in his book “The Life of Mahomet†that there were Arabic translations of the Gospel of John from the eighth and ninth centuries CE that translated Paraclete as “Ahmad,†albeit erroneously according to Muir.
In John 16:7, Jesus makes it clear that the coming of the Paraclete is directly contingent upon his (Jesus’) departure: “á¼á½°Î½ Î³á½°Ï Î¼á½´ ἀπέλθω ὠπαÏάκλητος οá½Îº á¼Î»Îµá½»ÏƒÎµÏ„αι Ï€Ïὸς ὑμᾶς†(For if I do not go, the Paraclete will not come unto you). This is interesting because the orthodox has consistently told us that the Paraclete and the Holy Spirit are one and the same. But if the Paraclete and the Holy Spirit is essentially the same person, are we then to suppose that Jesus and his disciples were completely devoid of him? The Gospel of Luke tells us that the Holy Spirit was with Elizabeth (1:41), John the Baptist (1:15), Zacharias (1:67), as well as with Simeon (2:25). All of these people chronologically predated Jesus Christ, yet the latter says clearly in John that the Paraclete had not yet arrived.
The Synod at Constantinople in 381 CE testifies to the fact that the early Christian church also found the Johannine readings about the Paraclete problematic and thus attempted to better define his nature and function. The most crucial verdict arrived at by the bishops of the Council was undoubtedly the judgment that the Holy Spirit was co-equal, co-eternal, and co-substantial with the Father and Son and therefore fully God, the third person of a triune deity. The old Nicene Creed hammered out over fifty years earlier was revised and the Niceo Constantinopolitan Creed was born. The bishops proposed a creative solution to the problem of the apparent incongruities between the Holy Spirit and the Paraclete of the Fourth Gospel. The Cappadocian Fathers, representing the orthodox findings, concluded that the Holy Spirit possesses the divine attribute of pre-eternality, meaning that he eternally proceeds from the Father (and scandalously from the Son as well [filioque] in the Western churches), but is also sent to the earth at certain times in history. In other words, the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds but is also economically sent.
Therefore, when Jesus speaks of the Paraclete coming after his departure, he is simply referring to the coming of the Spirit to the physical world in temporal terms, and just as the Son was eternally begotten by God before the creation of time and matter, yet economically sent into the world over two thousand years ago, the Holy Spirit also pre-existed and was sent, not once, but many times into the world. This solution, however, still fails to adequately account for the presence of the Holy Spirit before and during the ministry of Christ. When Jesus made the conditional statement recorded by John in 16:7, the Paraclete was clearly not with him on earth yet apparently accompanied his cousin John the Baptist and his mother Elizabeth. This also creates a major problem when trying to reconcile the Augustinian orthodox notion that the presence of the Son necessitates the presence of the Father and Holy Spirit and that all three persons are inseparable in their actions. The intercommunion of the three persons “guarantees the involvement (of all three).â€
The theological gymnastics of the early orthodox, as well as the vastly diverse opinions regarding the nature of Christ during the first four centuries of the Common Era, demonstrate the obvious and painful truth that the deficiencies lie in the scriptures themselves. There are over 5,500 manuscripts of the New Testament in Greek, from credit-card sized John Ryland’s papyrus number 52 (P52) to the vast ×01, but no two of these manuscripts are identical. John Mill’s 1707 CE attempt at an eclectic text of the Greek New Testament led him to state in his primitive apparatus that he found over 30,000 differences in the one hundred or so manuscripts that he had at this disposal. The irreconcilable Christologies of the synoptic evangelists coupled with John’s Logos simply render it impossible to arrive at a coherent and consistent profession of Christian faith. Even a theologian as early as Origen of Alexandria (d. 254 CE) once complained:
“The differences among the manuscripts have become great, either through the negligence of some copyists or through the perverse audacity of others; they either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they make additions or deletions as they please†(emphasis mine).
Consider also Origen’s Pagan opponent, Celsus, and Dionysius, the orthodox bishop of Corinth (d. circa 171 CE) who said respectively: “Some believers, as though from a drinking bout, go so far as to oppose themselves and alter the original text of the gospel three or four or several times over, and they change its character to enable them to deny difficulties in the face of criticism.†“When my fellow-Christians invited me to write to them I did so. These the devil’s apostles have filled with tares, taking away some things and adding others. For them the woe is reserved. Small wonder then if some have dared to tamper even with the word of the Lord himself, when they have conspired to mutilate my own humble efforts.â€
John 16:13 reads: ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ á¼ÎºÎµá¿–νος τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας á½Î´Î·Î³á½µÏƒÎµÎ¹ ὑμᾶς εἰς πάσαν τῆν ἀληθείαν Î¿á½ Î³á½°Ï Î»Î±Î»á½µÏƒÎµÎ¹ ἀφ᾽ ἑαυτοῦ ἀλλ᾽ ὅσα ἂν ἀκούσῃ λαλήσει καὶ Ï„á½° á¼Ïχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν “However when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.â€
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Do you treat all your vows like this? When you joined you agreed to engage in an exchange. I replied to your post, yet you did not reply to mine. Though you are following in the footsteps of Muhammad:
"If you ever take an oath to do something and later on you find that something else is better, then you should expiate your oath and do what is better."
Sahih Bukhari 9:89:260
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=950.0
Also, you apparently missed this:
DO NOT waste our mutual time by copy and pasting the lies and blasphemy against the scriptures of others. Include only that which you are willing and able to defend yourself. Such tripe going forward will simply be sent off to spam.
I'll give you an example in the next post.
Indicating that you didn't even read my replies to you. You are required to engage in an exchange. Please start at the top of my reply and offer substantive responses to the content of both of those posts. I defended the scriptures and the one true God that inspired them. Let's see if you can defend Muhammad and his 23 year 7th century record and the hadith with other than nonsense and lies.
Why don't you start with something like listing all the reasons you believe Muhammad other than he told his followers to believe him.
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Hi Pete,
Apparently I have hit a nerve, but I just thought that since your so fond of quoting form the scriptures of others, (even though it is glaringly clear you haven't a clue to the meaning of what you are quoting), I would play along. You insist that I have committed blasphemy, but you should realize in my eyes you too have been commuting blasphemy.
Now, instead of addressing my post, you ask that I stop the quotes from the Bible, yet at the same time you want me to respond to your flagrantly ignorant quotes from my Nobel Book?!!!!
How does that work?
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So now you turn to Hollywood? This is why I told you I didn't want to waste our mutual time with this kind of garbage. Don't do it again. You can get replies to this trash in the links of my prior post without having to waste my time with it.
"We have exposed many more examples of this Greek sophist styled nonsense, in another forum section:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=33.0
Or try this link:
"A Bible Commentary for Muslims"
http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/index.html"
Or do a search of this forum like - comforter - in the window in the upper right hand corner.
You effortlessly copy and pasting another person's foolishness, while I am stuck having to spend my time showing you how you've been duped.
When filmmaker Mel Gibson prepared his script for his film “The Passion of the Christ,†he must have found the Ps**tta’s82 translation of Paraclete as “Paraqlayta†problematic for obvious reasons. It would have been awkward for an Aramaic-speaking Jesus, in the midst of a discourse with his Jewish disciples, to use a recognizable Greek word with a Semitic twist. He rather opted for the translation as it occurs in the Syriac lectionaries used by the Assyrian churches in Iraq, also known as the Ancient Apostolic Church of the East. In these texts, the word for Paraclete is rendered “Munahma,†which according to author Karen Armstrong, may be equivalent to the Arabic Ahmad, ........
That is ridiculous since the Arabic language was so new to the scene it didn't even have a written form until a few centuries into the Christian era!
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2561.0
...... and certainly sounds as if they are derived from a common root.
Now there's an etymological study! Like 7th century Arabic "Bakkah" "sounds as if" it has something to do with the Hebrew "Baca" of a thousand years before Arabic was invented! You've gobbled down a pile of pure hogwash, my friend.
http://petewaldo.com/baca_mecca.htm
Therefore, the scene as it occurs in the film has “Jesus†say, “Do not be afraid, the Helper (Munahma) will come, who speaks the truth about God (Allah).†Nineteenth century Scottish orientalist William Muir, who once said that Islam is the “only undisguised and formidable antagonist of Christianity,†........
Indeed. This is how we can know it is of Satan, as I keep patiently explaining to you. Who is the antagonist of God? You follow the false prophet Muhammad alone, even in thinly veneered Arabian pagan moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals. "Formidable" only because of the power of the sword and a willingness of Muhammad's followers to slaughter innocents.
........ claimed in his book “The Life of Mahomet†that there were Arabic translations of the Gospel of John from the eighth and ninth centuries CE that translated Paraclete as “Ahmad,†albeit erroneously according to Muir.
Erroneously would no doubt be correct, however discussion of an Arabic translation is irrelevant.
In John 16:7, Jesus makes it clear that the coming of the Paraclete is directly contingent upon his (Jesus’) departure: “á¼á½°Î½ Î³á½°Ï Î¼á½´ ἀπέλθω ὠπαÏάκλητος οá½Îº á¼Î»Îµá½»ÏƒÎµÏ„αι Ï€Ïὸς ὑμᾶς†(For if I do not go, the Paraclete will not come unto you). This is interesting because the orthodox has consistently told us that the Paraclete and the Holy Spirit are one and the same.
Gee, I wonder why?
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, (paraklētos) [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
You can see that your whole inverted pyramid of preposterous pile-on presumption just went right out the window, through a single verse of scripture. Making it a filthy lie to suggest Muhammad is the comforter. Or any kind of comforter of anyone other than Satan!
Jesus healed the lame so they could walk.
Mohammed brought lameness to the walking. "...they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off."
Jesus brought sight to the blind.
Mohammed brought blindness to the seeing. "...he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes..."
Jesus brought the dead back to life.
Mohammed killed the living.
Besides which it is the epitome of absurdity and a conspicuously Satanic lie, to suggest that a false prophet who proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel, could be prophesied in that very same Gospel as anything other than a false prophet.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Let alone the thin ice that it puts all such liars on:
Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
See how Islam is always the opposite? As your article put it the "antagonist of Christianity". Who is the antagonist of God? How do you not get that it is necessarily Satan that is behind the false prophet Muhammad?
But if the Paraclete and the Holy Spirit is essentially the same person, are we then to suppose that Jesus and his disciples were completely devoid of him?
Jesus was the Apostles comforter while He was with them, who were walking in the Spirit of God. And just like it says, it is the Holy Spirit as sent in Jesus', name after He left them.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
How could Muhammad comfort and teach the Apostles all things, and help them remember things, when he wasn't born until over 500 years later?
John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Not leave them comfortless for one minute, let alone 500 years!
The Holy Spirit in Jesus name! Praying in Jesus name.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
The very thing that Satan convinced you would constitute the ONLY unforgivable sin! A sin worse than mass murder or child rape. What could be more unjust than that?!! The very thing that makes you want to stay outside of the Holy Spirit and adamantly reject it.
Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Are we to believe that the world "seeth him not" perhaps because Mohammed wasn't going to be born for 500 years?
The world knoweth not Muhammad because he wasn't going to come for 500 years?
How did the apostles "know" Mohammed?
How did Mohammed "dwelleth with" the Apostles 500 years before he was born?
How was Mohammed to be IN THE APOSTLES? Let alone 500 years before He was born.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=178.msg607#msg607
As if Muhammad had anything to do with truth when he proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel. You need to quit this foolishness, and leave the lies you have been victim of, and ask Jesus for help in overcoming like this guy did:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FelW46AGu4
The Gospel of Luke tells us that the Holy Spirit was with Elizabeth (1:41), John the Baptist (1:15), Zacharias (1:67), as well as with Simeon (2:25). All of these people chronologically predated Jesus Christ, yet the latter says clearly in John that the Paraclete had not yet arrived.
Not "another Comforter", in Jesus name, because He had not yet left.
The Synod at Constantinople in 381 CE testifies to the fact that the early Christian church also found the Johannine readings about the Paraclete problematic and thus attempted to better define his nature and function. The most crucial verdict arrived at by the bishops of the Council was undoubtedly the judgment that the Holy Spirit was co-equal, co-eternal, and co-substantial with the Father and Son and therefore fully God, the third person of a triune deity. The old Nicene Creed hammered out over fifty years earlier was revised and the Niceo Constantinopolitan Creed was born. The bishops proposed a creative solution to the problem of the apparent incongruities between the Holy Spirit and the Paraclete of the Fourth Gospel. The Cappadocian Fathers, representing the orthodox findings, concluded that the Holy Spirit possesses the divine attribute of pre-eternality, meaning that he eternally proceeds from the Father (and scandalously from the Son as well [filioque] in the Western churches), but is also sent to the earth at certain times in history. In other words, the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds but is also economically sent.
Therefore, when Jesus speaks of the Paraclete coming after his departure, he is simply referring to the coming of the Spirit to the physical world in temporal terms, and just as the Son was eternally begotten by God before the creation of time and matter, yet economically sent into the world over two thousand years ago, the Holy Spirit also pre-existed and was sent, not once, but many times into the world. This solution, however, still fails to adequately account for the presence of the Holy Spirit before and during the ministry of Christ. When Jesus made the conditional statement recorded by John in 16:7, the Paraclete was clearly not with him on earth yet apparently accompanied his cousin John the Baptist and his mother Elizabeth. This also creates a major problem when trying to reconcile the Augustinian orthodox notion that the presence of the Son necessitates the presence of the Father and Holy Spirit and that all three persons are inseparable in their actions. The intercommunion of the three persons “guarantees the involvement (of all three).â€
The theological gymnastics of the early orthodox, as well as the vastly diverse opinions regarding the nature of Christ during the first four centuries of the Common Era, demonstrate the obvious and painful truth that the deficiencies lie in the scriptures themselves. There are over 5,500 manuscripts of the New Testament in Greek, from credit-card sized John Ryland’s papyrus number 52 (P52) to the vast ×01, but no two of these manuscripts are identical. John Mill’s 1707 CE attempt at an eclectic text of the Greek New Testament led him to state in his primitive apparatus that he found over 30,000 differences in the one hundred or so manuscripts that he had at this disposal. The irreconcilable Christologies of the synoptic evangelists coupled with John’s Logos simply render it impossible to arrive at a coherent and consistent profession of Christian faith. Even a theologian as early as Origen of Alexandria (d. 254 CE) once complained:
“The differences among the manuscripts have become great, either through the negligence of some copyists or through the perverse audacity of others; they either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they make additions or deletions as they please†(emphasis mine).
Consider also Origen’s Pagan opponent, Celsus, and Dionysius, the orthodox bishop of Corinth (d. circa 171 CE) who said respectively: “Some believers, as though from a drinking bout, go so far as to oppose themselves and alter the original text of the gospel three or four or several times over, and they change its character to enable them to deny difficulties in the face of criticism.†“When my fellow-Christians invited me to write to them I did so. These the devil’s apostles have filled with tares, taking away some things and adding others. For them the woe is reserved. Small wonder then if some have dared to tamper even with the word of the Lord himself, when they have conspired to mutilate my own humble efforts.â€
John 16:13 reads: ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ á¼ÎºÎµá¿–νος τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας á½Î´Î·Î³á½µÏƒÎµÎ¹ ὑμᾶς εἰς πάσαν τῆν ἀληθείαν Î¿á½ Î³á½°Ï Î»Î±Î»á½µÏƒÎµÎ¹ ἀφ᾽ ἑαυτοῦ ἀλλ᾽ ὅσα ἂν ἀκούσῃ λαλήσει καὶ Ï„á½° á¼Ïχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν “However when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.â€
You can see how this whole pile of foolishness crashed and burned, in the light of a single verse - John 14:26. A verse regarding the paraklētos - the whole subject of the article - that they conveniently failed to mention. Laughably even suggested it's the church that doesn't understand!
"This is interesting because the orthodox has consistently told us that the Paraclete and the Holy Spirit are one and the same."
The very same subterfuge used by the famous Greek sophist styled entertainer and lying antichrist deceiver Ahmed Deedat, that duped so many, so tragically.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=335.0
The same subterfuge employed by no shortage of other Muhammadans engaged in taqiyyah.
Can you see how you got duped by a liar?
How do you suppose God will deal with a liar like the one that penned that? What if he should die in a car crash tomorrow, in that unrepentant state?
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Hi Pete,
Apparently I have hit a nerve, .......
Don't be silly. What you did was make demands of my time, without investing any of your own, while breaking the rules you agreed to uphold when you joined the forum. Refresher at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=35.0
I answered your last post anyway. But there is no need to waste my time like that when you can easily get answers without turning to Hollywood.
....... but I just thought that since your so fond of quoting form the scriptures of others, (even though it is glaringly clear you haven't a clue to the meaning of what you are quoting), ........
Then why not explain it? Respond to my replies.
....... I would play along. You insist that I have committed blasphemy, .......
It isn't about what I say, my friend. It is what is revealed through all of the prophets and witnesses in the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind, that His people have followed through two covenants, for 3500 years.
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
2John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
2Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
...... but you should realize in my eyes you too have been commuting blasphemy.
How can a follower of the one true God of the scriptures avoid it? What you see as my "blasphemy" is against a single, stand-alone, 7th century SW Arabian desert dwelling false prophet who himself blasphemed the one true God of the scriptures and His Son, my Savior, Jesus Christ.
Muhammad having proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel. The only anti-a-specific-religion cult on earth. The "antagonist of Christianity".
Blasphemy in your eyes because you have put your faith in Muhammad alone. If you disagree with that then please explain how you follow something other that Muhammad's words alone. Indeed the only reason you have to believe they are "Allah's" words is because Muhammad said they were. Not a single witness ever heard "Allah" or Gabriel give Muhammad a single "revelation". You put your trust in Muhammad alone - even though he proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel.
Now, instead of addressing my post, ......
I had already addressed your post before I read this.
...... you ask that I stop the quotes from the Bible, ........
That's false. I would be happy for you to quote the bible because that means you are reading the bible. I asked you to quit lazily copy and pasting the Greek sophist styled nonsense of others that you cannot defend. Try thinking for yourself.
....... yet at the same time you want me to respond to your flagrantly ignorant quotes ........
At least we both agree those quotes are flagrantly ignorant! But rather than making empty claims, why not defend what I quoted?
...... from my Nobel Book?!!!!
Far from "Nobel" it is the demonic revelation of Satan himself. The exact opposite of the Gospel:
Quran Sura 9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.
Of course that's a filthy satanic lie to suggest that the Gospel binds anyone to fight and slay others, since we are commanded to love our enemies, yet it is a promise binding on Muhammad's followers.
"Summarized Sahih Al-Bukhari" page 580
Chapter 2. The best among the people is that believer who strives his utmost in Allah's Cause with both his life and property.
footnotes:
[1] "Al-Jihad (the holy fighting) in Allah's Cause (with full force of number and weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior, [His Word being La ilaha ill-Allah (which means: none has the right to be worshipped by Allah] and His Religion (Islam) is propagated. By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and the Muslims fall into an inferior position; there honour is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim, and he who tries to escape from this duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfill this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite.
How does that work?
It works fine for me. Now why don't you uphold your agreement and personally respond, to the posts I spent so much time personally constructing?
Rather than being so unfair, and lazily copy and pasting, you could have gone here:
http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/index.html
And quickly found:
John 14:16 - Who is the "Comforter"?
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/comforter.htm
or here
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=33.0
Or done a search of this forum - comforter - or asked me who the Comforter is. I could have explained it to you rather than your posting the buffoonery that you did. I am very open to honest and sincere inquiry, and not surprisingly put off by copy and pasted blasphemy.
When you copy and paste another person's foolishness it becomes your own foolishness. You own it. Their blasphemy becomes your blasphemy. Yet you can see the whole false premise you copy and pasted, went down with a single verse. John 14:26. A verse regarding the paraclete that they conveniently failed to mention. Can you see how they duped you?
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You put your faith in Muhammad alone. You put your trust in Muhammad alone. You follow the words of Muhammad alone. You follow Muhammad because Muhammad told his followers to follow him - or get their heads cut off as renegades and apostates.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2656.0
This even as we can see in the prior posts how he is revealed through your own books, and so far I have gone easy on you.
So then since Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel, do you follow Muhammad alone because of the rich history of Mecca? It can't be that because there is no evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1138.0
Is it the extensive archaeological record of Mecca? Can't be that because there is no archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before pagan immigrants from Yemen settled the area in about the 4th century AD.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1132.0
Is it the geographical location of Mecca? It can't be that because Mecca is located across 1200 kilometers of harsh desert from THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs. Abraham's travels never took him to within 1,000 kilometers of Mecca, and there was no overland route along the Red Sea in Arabia until most of a millennium after Abraham walked the earth.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3416.0
Is it the ancient kaaba? Can't hardly be that since Mecca never existed, let alone that the Quraish pagan's kaaba was built in the early 5th century for Arabian Star Family worship, about 666 nautical miles from where the one true God of the scriptures, had His people build His temple.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/#temple
So you believe in the words of Muhammad alone, even though all of the available evidence suggests, it is an anti-a-specific-religion cult that follows the stand-alone words of a single 7th century SW Arabian desert dwelling murderous imperialistic conqueror. Islam is antichrist.
You follow Muhammad even though 1/4 of the bible is prophecy, with much of it fulfilled, including the whole subject of the Gospel that was prophesied in the scriptures so many hundreds of years before that event:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm
You follow Muhammad alone, even though the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind through all of His prophets and witnesses, that His people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years, is ever increasingly supported by history, archaeology, geography and even mathematically.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=68.0
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm
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You have mostly responded to my previous post by using quotes from the bible, in what I believe is an effort to support your point of view. The problem with that though is as much as I respect the Bible and value my relationship with many good people who are Christians, I don’t believe the Bible is anywhere close to been the Word of God, just as am sure you also don’t believe what I believe in is anywhere even close to the words of God, so how can you use what I don’t believe in to respond to my points?
And after blaspheming the Word of God while deluding yourself with unctuous platitudes like "as much as I respect the Bible" which is preposterous lie since you believe the exact opposite of its whole subject, we can see how God weighs in:
1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
So since Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel, and because of your faith in him you reject the scriptures of the one truth God YHWH, you were instead given a chance to explain why you believe solely Muhammad's words for other reasons, like history, archaeology, and geography, but were then rendered mute. Perhaps this is because it should have become as apparent to you, as to anyone with the remotest ability to engage in critical thought, that it is the exact opposite of the one true God, that you in fact follow. Your epic failure to support Muhammad's words even after you amusingly wrote:
In fact how can even God expect us to believe in what does not make sense and is illogical on the basis of faith? That would be injustice for it is He who created us to think with our minds and not heart. The way to the heart is through the mind; which is why information or knowledge based on logic increases ones faith and information that is illogical, but still accepted through faith is fanaticism. Fanaticism means we are guided by our emotions and desires, instead of God conscience
Can you defend your faith based on reason and invite people to accept salvation through your faith through the same?
Can you see how your mind has been rendered dysfunctional, even as you describe your faith in Muhammad alone, let alone his flying donkey-mule, as if it were logical to do so. Satan even compels you to believe that all Christians over the last nearly 2,000 years are guilty of Muhammad's - and thus obviously Satan's - only unforgivable sin. Guiltier of worse sin than Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot, Ghengis Khan, the Mufti of Jerusalem and the false prophet Muhammad himself.
EXACTLY: As you said you couldn't give an answer because it would go against the words given to you by God according your scripture.
For Him to take the form of a man, according to ours would be an abomination-a sin beyond any other that is unforgivable if one dies in that state, unless he or she repents and turns to the one and only lord.
You mean "repents and turns to" Muhammad alone.
I showed you exactly how YHWH revealed Himself to Abraham in the flesh of a man, so many centuries before He did so, in the person of His Son our Savior the Prince of Peace.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3485.msg14555#msg14555
Can't even you begin to see that only an entirely unjust and opposite "god" named Satan would suggest that praying in Jesus name at any time and in any direction one chooses to an omnipresent God, would be a sin worse than child rape or cold blooded mass murder, while praying in the name of the Arabian pagan's deity "Allah" while prostrating toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca would be what the one true God Yahweh wants us to do?
Why not see what some of your former followers of Muhammad brethren found, after they hit the wall that you just have. They came to know the love of the one true holy and just God:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1259.0
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All of that, and we barely got started on discussing the character of the man/men that you follow, as revealed through Muhammad's stand-alone 23 year 7th century record:
http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=coitus&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
Can you list for us all the reasons, that Muhammad's followers prostrate themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day, besides Muhammad told his followers to?
http://www.historyofmecca.com/
(Book #92, Hadith #448) He will reply. '(My witnesses are) Muhammad and his followers.'
(Book #93, Hadith #601) I will say, 'O Lord, my followers! My followers!'.....
(Book #60, Hadith #264) Lo! Some men from my followers will be brought and taken towards the left side...
(Book #78, Hadith #627) Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet said, "O followers of Muhammad! By Allah, if you knew what I know, you would weep much and laugh little."
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2656.0
Indeed. Even Muhammad wondered where he was going after he died. No assurance of salvation
Let me give you some help with your answer to listing all the reasons you follow Muhammad.
Can you list all the reason that Muhammad's followers kiss the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca?