Speculation, Conjecture, text that cannot be verified seem to be your sources, that are for all accounts and purposes written with a strong bias. The reason for Islam, from the time of Adam to Muhammad there is only ISlam, everything else is a deviation from the truth.
The idols and idol worshipping, the worshipping of temples and Institutions, the worship of vanity of knowledge are all deviations from the truth. It matters not what some historian says or does not say or even your commentary out of vain desires is of no consequence and absolutely no value to anyone living or dead. But l;et me assure you of the Facts
There is Zam Zam in Makkah and this well predates all the historians ........
......... you have mentioned the well of the wife of Abraham.
Abraham rebuilt the Kaabah on older Ruins, not built it from Scratch, .......
The Knowledge of Islam is the foundation of your knowledge, ........
...... please check the history books carefully and see who was dark ages when the the ranaissance started and who gathered all the knowledge available at the time. The reason you have greek and Roman history and Pholosophy is the Muslims. Bagdad, ring any bells ??
I would have to start this history lesson from the start to dispel all your deviations and misinterpretations,So let me start at the beginning for you
There is no God but ALLAH and Muhammad is the messenger of ALLAH.
ALLAH created Adam, (the God is a generic term that is very crude in its presentation and translation of the name of the Almighty)
ALLAH created Eve and ALLAH told him the names of all living things (ALLAH teaches man that which he knows not).
ALLAH asked all of creation to bow down to man
SATAn (Iblees) a Jinn refused and realising his mistake asks ALLAH for time to prove that man is not worthy to be bowed down to.
Satan is banished to earth and vows to lead all of mankind astray.
What I am trying to say is that your history lesson is of the utmost unimportance.
....... These are in the records in ARABIA not the Western libraries.
sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. Was his Allah just confused? Didn't Allah know the Gospel was "a deviation from the truth" as you suggest? |
Here is something to think about, I went to the Bible and searched for a possible answer, Also after reading most of your references
TUESDAY, JUNE 12, 2007
Conquest of Makkah in the Bible (http://Conquest of Makkah in the Bible)
Conquest of Makkah by Muslims in the Bible (http://Conquest of Makkah by Muslims in the Bible)
"And Enoch also, the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15)"
"And he said, The LORD came from Si'-nai, and rose up from Se'-ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Pa'-ran [Mecca in Arabic], and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
(Deuteronomy 33:2)"
"Lord came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise." (Habakkuk 3:3)
Hastings dictionary of the Bible describes Teman as an oasis just north of Madina. Paran is the city of Makkah. E-sword dictionary also agrees with this.
Plus
Other evidence is also available for this claim.
The evidence is by non-Muslims.
All these links include historical and biblical facts.
Prophet Muhammad (s) is the only man in history to migrate from Makkah to Madina and then return to Makkah with 10,000 men.
The army of the Muslims that conquered Mecca without any blood shed (peacefully) were exactly 10,000 men (From the book of "Muhammad the Prophet" by Maulana Muhammad Ali, pages 128-129). The Bible calls them "ten thousands of saints"
A Christian once claimed:
The saints were angelic beings and it was God who descended and not Prophet Muhammad (s).
My response:
The dictionary does not agree that a saint is an angel. A saint is a human being.
If we look at the words carefully, we see that the verses are clearly stating that it is a prophecy and therefore the question of past tenses does not arise.
It is not God personally who is being talked about but the knowledge of God because God is not limited to a single place.
POSTED BY INVITATION TO TRUTH AT 10:43 AM
WAS PARAN MAKKAH OR NEAR MAKKAH???
Prominent Saudi Prince follows Moses Exodus Saga. <br />
Our thesis that Moses’ journey started in Yemen and followed the tectonic line of volcanoes to the Holiest City of Islam, MAKKAH seems to have caused somewhat of a stir in the Kingdom and left the Israelis cold.
In a private note, a prominent member of the Saudi Royal family has asked to be kept in touch with further developments not only regarding the Exodus but also our thesis that the Temples of Jerusalem were never built on the Temple Mount but rather in their more logical position some 600 ft. further south over the City’s only natural supply of water, The Gihon Spring in the City of Jerusalem.
I will keep you posted on the developments in the Muslim and Arab world. The material has already been translated and posted on the internet in Urdu and Arabic.
Islam has claimed that the coming of Mohammed was foretold in the Bible in the following verse:
"And this is the blessing wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death and he said, 'The Lord came from Sinai ......
...... and dawned from Mount Seir upon them; he shone forth from Mount Paran he came from ten thousands of holy ones: with flaming fire at his right hand. Yea, he loved His people; all those consecrated to him were in his hand: so they followed in thy feet, receiving direction from thee, when Moses commanded us a law, as a possession for the congregation of Jacob. Thus the Lord became King in Jeshurun when the heads of the people were gathered, all the tribes of Israel together." (Deuteronomy 33:1-5).There is no controversy since Paran was a thousand kilometers north of where Mecca was eventually built, and the times we are talking about are a thousand years before the first caravan made the journey along the Red Sea.
The controversy naturally revolves around any independent evidence that Paran was in the vicinity of Makkah.
We have already cited a medieval geographer ........
........ on that score but one cannot be sure whether the identification was real or an attempt to strengthen the thesis that Mohammed was mentioned in the Bible.
We would expect therefore that Muslims would favor that identification. In fact it is now taken for granted by the Muslim world.
Perhaps that is the reason why the Saudis have expressed more interest in the thesis than the Israelis.Perhaps the reason the Israelis don't have an interest is because THEY KNOW WHERE THE HOLY LAND IS, and have for 3500 years.
However it does cause Islam a problem which they have preferred not to address over the centuries. For, if they accept Paran as Makkah, then they MUST at the same time accept that the Exodus took place in Saudi Arabia .
What is puzzling is that we cannot find any Islamic commentator who has taken the next and only logical next step. IF Mekkah is Paran .......
....... then the Exodus MUST have taken place in Arabia . We have seen no Islamic commentator make that obvious conclusion.
What is much more startling is that Yemeni Jewish sages ......
........ also identified Paran with Mekkah, surely against their interests and biases. The argument has been posited that Yemeni Jews for their own protection would not want rock the boat and that as the rise of Islam was undoubtedly a major world event in history and they believe that all such events are predicted in the Torah, they would have no problem is accepting the Muslim interpretation.
I will leave the reader to decide whether that is sufficient justification for Jewish sages to have accepted the identification that Paran is Makkah.
The ka'aba in vedic traditions that go back thousands of years:
http://volker-doormann.org/kaaba23.htm (http://volker-doormann.org/kaaba23.htm)
Edward Gibbon writes about the Kaaba and its existence before the Christian era in his book: "The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era: in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad." Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia. 'And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians.'
G E von Grunebaum says: "Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary."
There are true scholars out there that are not indoctrinated, not biased or have agendas of their own, but seekers of the the truth, according to the scriptures of the past, You say you believe the bible well the bible says that there is a place baca old name for the city of makkah
In Psalm 84
1 How amiable are thy tabernacles, O LORD of hosts!
2 My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the LORD:
my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God.
3 Yea, the sparrow hath found a house,
and the swallow a nest for herself,
where she may lay her young,
even thine altars, O LORD of hosts,
my King, and my God.
4 Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: Beitullaah (house of ALLAH) or house of the Lord)
they will be still praising thee. (walking around the ka'aba chanting praises) innal ghamda (Only ALLAH is praise worthy
Selah.
5 Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee;
in whose heart are the ways of them.
6 Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; MAKKAH and the Zam Zam
the rain also filleth the pools.
7 They go from strength to strength,
every one of them in Zion appeareth before God.
8 O LORD God of hosts, hear my prayer:
give ear, O God of Jacob.
Selah.
9 Behold, O God our shield,
and look upon the face of thine anointed.
10 For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand.
I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God,
than to dwell in the tents of wickedness.
11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield:
the LORD will give grace and glory:
no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.
12 O LORD of hosts, blessed is the man that trusteth in thee. (Muhammad in the first ten years underwent extreme trials and tribulations and trusted in ALLAH alone.)
Do you need more evidence or are you going to try and argue against scripture!!!
Dear Peterhttp://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1079.msg6416#msg6416
Everything I type is relevant and not spam, you have so little understanding that I have to begin at the basics in order for you to grasp simple Religious concepts, before you are able to understand your role as a human being.You are not a person that listens to logic, you only listen to European and Americanized logic and that makes you a racist, you refute evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians that the Ka'aba existed long before Christianity, you present opinions as evidence. Most disturbing is that you quote from the Quran and Hadith out context and verses you have no knowledge of, you act out of ignorance, and your disrespect is not dialogue.
Quote Now you try to prove heathen scripture with heathen scripture. |
There is no mention of Mecca in the writings of any classical writer or geographer. This fact is an important argument against Islam's claim that Mecca has existed since the time of Abraham. We have complete records of Greek and Roman writers, as well as many geographers who visited Arabia from the end of the 5th century B.C. through the 3rd century A.D. Some of these people drew maps of Arabia telling us about every city, village, mountain, and temple existing there, yet none mentioned Mecca. If Mecca did indeed exist at the time of any of these geographers and writers, surely someone would have told us about this city.
This is my Introduction, i will do what I should have done in the first place, expose DR, Rafats Fruadulent statements based on his conclusions as a disbeliever (yeas he is Mushrihk, a person that ascribes partners to ALLAH and a KAAFIR a rejector of faith)
I will answer all your questions listed below but first I will show you why I disagree as you are averse to hindu writings but not Pagan Greek and Roman writing (Is it becuase you only believe fair skin people?)
QuoteNow you try to prove heathen scripture with heathen scripture.
But all I see is a bunch of Deedat style deception and false presumption by DR. Z. HAQ, with a single reference to another source, a 1935 Dr. Pran Nath, that HAQ feebly attempted to splice into the article, that didn't support his article any more than it provided any kind of evidence.
Gee, I wonder if DR. Z. HAQ is a Hindu? Whoops, what do you know. He's a Muslim who does the same thing with scripture that you failed to do. Isn't that a surprise?
Where are the Hindu scholar's confirmation regarding Mohammed in their books?
Where is the historical evidence?
Where is the archaeological evidence?
Where is the geographical evidence?
You have to start at the beginning - with the foundation.
How can you place Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael in Mecca?
Failure to be able to do this relegates Mohammed's whole STAND-ALONE 7th century invention to the trash heap.
It won't do you any good to turn to scripture, Hunduism or the Wiccans to save Islam, if you can't provide an answer to that question.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1483.0
The ka'aba is the evidence, why would so many rebuild something that according to you is not a genuine house of worship?
When comparing the historical claims of the Qur'an, with those of the Bible, we find that the Biblical claims are true and historically accurate. I cannot find a single critic in history who argued about the existence of Jerusalem. Records concerning Jerusalem and its monotheistic faith have come from each generation since the time the Israelites entered into the Promised Land, in the 15th century B.C. Records from Mesopotamia and Egypt all contain important entries about Jerusalem. We find in Hebrew literature complete records about the kings who reigned in the city of Jerusalem. Much literature attested to by internal and external records tells about the monotheistic worship by the Jews in the temple of Jerusalem.
These facts should convince our Muslim friends to return to the historical legacy of a monotheistic worship as proclaimed in the Bible and known through documented history - and not to give heed to claims which create a worship without any historical foundation housed in a pagan temple built in the 5th century A.D.
Quote
When comparing the historical claims of the Qur'an, with those of the Bible, we find that the Biblical claims are true and historically accurate. I cannot find a single critic in history who argued about the existence of Jerusalem. Records concerning Jerusalem and its monotheistic faith have come from each generation since the time the Israelites entered into the Promised Land, in the 15th century B.C. Records from Mesopotamia and Egypt all contain important entries about Jerusalem. We find in Hebrew literature complete records about the kings who reigned in the city of Jerusalem. Much literature attested to by internal and external records tells about the monotheistic worship by the Jews in the temple of Jerusalem.
These facts should convince our Muslim friends to return to the historical legacy of a monotheistic worship as proclaimed in the Bible and known through documented history - and not to give heed to claims which create a worship without any historical foundation housed in a pagan temple built in the 5th century A.D.
Muslims accept all the monotheistic worship and we follow it closer than any Jew or Chriistian, we do not reject any of the Prophets that Came before, we do reject the lies individuals tell about them!!!!
Another one of DR RAFAT'S lies, ~If he knows Islam at all he would know this simple piece of information but his intention is to misguide!!!
I will answer all your questions listed below but first I will show you why I disagree as you are averse to hindu writings but not Pagan Greek and Roman writing (Is it becuase you only believe fair skin people?)
QuoteNow you try to prove heathen scripture with heathen scripture.
But all I see is a bunch of Deedat style deception and false presumption by DR. Z. HAQ, with a single reference to another source, a 1935 Dr. Pran Nath, that HAQ feebly attempted to splice into the article, that didn't support his article any more than it provided any kind of evidence.
Gee, I wonder if DR. Z. HAQ is a Hindu? Whoops, what do you know. He's a Muslim who does the same thing with scripture that you failed to do. Isn't that a surprise?
Where are the Hindu scholar's confirmation regarding Mohammed in their books?
Where is the historical evidence?
Where is the archaeological evidence?
Where is the geographical evidence?
You have to start at the beginning - with the foundation.
How can you place Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael in Mecca?
Failure to be able to do this relegates Mohammed's whole STAND-ALONE 7th century invention to the trash heap.
It won't do you any good to turn to scripture, Hunduism or the Wiccans to save Islam, if you can't provide an answer to that question.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1483.0
The ka'aba is the evidence, why would so many rebuild ........
....... something that according to you is not a genuine house of worship?
I SEEK REFUGE FROM SATAN
I BEGIN IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE MOST MERCIFUL THE MOST BENEFICENT
I bear witness that there is no God but ALLAH
I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of ALLAH
I ask ALLAH to protect us from myself (NAFS/Desires/Motives) and my actions
ALLAH Guides whom HE wills and leaves to go astray whom he wills
Dear Christians (in particular Pete/Peter)
This is how should have entered this discussion forum in the first place, I humbly apologize for my entries you may send them to spam as I spoke from my Hawa (Opinion based on my Nafs).
It is the night of Leilatul Israa wal Mi'raaj (the travel from Masjidul Haraam (MAkkah) to Masjidul Aqsa (In Palestine) and to ALLAH (one of the greatest Miracles that a Prophet ever performed bringing the gift of five times prayer a day) after meeting with Nabi Adam, Nabi EESA and NABI YAHAYA, Nabi Moosa, Nabi Edries, and Nabi EBRAHEEM (alysalaatuwassalaam).
The lecture I attended by a very learned scholar made me realise that I needed to show you my akhlaak (character as a Muslim) and that I needed to engage with you on a different level as the topics you discuss are side issues and in most cases a distraction from the truth.
It is bickering about issues that have no proof.
I say Makkah existed because we have the accounts from the Hadith and Quran ........
......... and you say the Pagans dont mention it, ........
........ It is a dead-end for both of us.
I would rather discuss things like belief in One GOD and which of the Prophets of GOD worshipped ALLAH alone
What language was spoken by all the Prophets
What were the Prophetic laws that God sent to the Prophets.
And I would rather educate people like DR Rafat Amari and Ellis Skolfield about the True Islam, The islam of Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Yahaya, Jesus and Muhammad (Alaysalaatu wassalaam
You see we can talk about water the properties the existence the flow the origin, precipitation, condensation, rain, the benifits and leave out the Source (ALLAH) that would be a futile discussion as it is ALLAH that has sent us water and ALLAH that suspends the clouds and ALLh that brings the rain. I hope you follow what I mean
NO more Archeological, Greek and ROMAN pagan histories ........
........ that are lost and incomplete, rewritten with opinions, we can argue points like that till the end of time and not benefit an iota
None of your arguments are convincing, while they may be a plausible theory, the reality is that the Hadith is documented and verified and cross checked and proven itself enough times to be trusted on every level.
So ask a question, a valid one about Islam ......
........ and lets discuss it AND DO Not I say "now bring proof, Scripture requires belief in the unseen, BELIEF IN THE PROPHETS AND IN GOD ALMIGHTY.
ALL PRAISE IS DUE TO ALLAH
KING OF THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT
THEE ALONE DO I WORSHIP AND YOUR AID ALONE I SEEK
GUIDE ME ON THE STARIGHT PATH
THE PATH OF THOSE WHOM THOU HAST FAVORED
NOT THE PATH OF THOSE THAT INCURE THY WRATH
NOR THOSE THAT HAVE GONE ASTRAY
So ask a question, a valid one about Islam ......
........ and lets discuss it AND DO Not I say "now bring proof, Scripture requires belief in the unseen, BELIEF IN THE PROPHETS AND IN GOD ALMIGHTY.
I say Makkah existed because we have the accounts from the Hadith and Quran ........