Islam, Muslim / Christian Forum - Welcome All
Christian Denominations, Traditions & Pseudo-Christian => Historicism approach to the NT as held by Cults => Topic started by: Peter on April 05, 2011, 09:22:43 AM
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After years of frustration from trying to offer a glimpse at the traditional continuous historic view, to an eschatologically blind church, I finally took the gloves off. I uploaded the video at this link http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2451.0
Then sent the following to all of my "contacts"
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I believe this is the first broadcast PM I've sent to all my channel contacts in well over 3 years, but after trying to subtly bring this message to my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus I have gotten a little frustrated, so I finally decided to pull out the stops. In one of my recent videos (attached) I said
"To my Christian brethren, did it ever strike you as peculiar that the 20th century eschatology that YOU have been indoctrinated to believe, NECESSARILY PRECLUDES even considering, that Muhammad could be the false prophet of the book of Revelation?"
How could I could ask such a question, without singling out a denomination, or even a so-called "non-denominational" denomination? Please let me know if your church doesn't preclude the possibility.
I don't claim to have a franchise on interpretation, of the figurative language of dreams and visions in prophecy, but why is it that nobody logs into the forum to defend the eschatology they have been taught? Does truth matter?
If you don't want to view the video please at least click on the 2nd link below or at least please, please, click on the 3rd link in the menu of the attached video, for a challenging free book "The False Prophet" that's also fun to read.
It is a brick by brick empirical argument, and since it involves an entire context, just as preterism and futurism are complete contexts, it needs to be considered independently on the merit of that entire - and I might add traditional - context, without trying to wring it through the filter of the eschatology that you have been taught as you read.
May the Good Lord richly bless you and lead us all in all truth, and don't be shy, please join us in the forum.
(I attached the video "FALSE PROPHETS & CULTS" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzgOaR8Qrlk )
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Isn't it surprising that I could ask such a broad question without even having to single out a denomination or cult?
When I sent the video to all my contacts (over 200) I received only a few responses, and the following was one of them.
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Respondent by channel comment on 4-2
[[[[I believe that Islam is another false cult, but the Papacy is the Anti-Christ not Islam.]]]]
Pete reply by PM 4-3
Are you SDA?
While I have no sympathy for the Roman Church, which of the 4 verses that use the term antichrist, indicates the Roman Church is guilty of transgressing?
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/antichrist.htm
(attached "antichrist" video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w71CtxLdjio )
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Respondent 4-4
1) Pope calls himself "Holy Father". A Name which only belongs to God the Father alone.
2) Pope calls himself "Head of the Church" when the true Head of the Church is Christ Jesus alone.
3) Pope calls himself Christ's substitute on Earth, "Vicar of Christ", when it is actually God the Holy Spirit alone.
So there you have it, blasphemy courtesy of the Papacy and Vatican. It should also be noted that the beast in Revelations demands to be worshipped while the Imam Mahdi does not.
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Pete 4-5
[[[[1) Pope calls himself "Holy Father". A Name which only belongs to God the Father alone.
2) Pope calls himself "Head of the Church" when the true Head of the Church is Christ Jesus alone.
3) Pope calls himself Christ's substitute on Earth, "Vicar of Christ", when it is actually God the Holy Spirit alone.
So there you have it, blasphemy courtesy of the Papacy and Vatican.]]]]
My sympathies don't lie with the Roman Church, indeed we have a whole forum section devoted to helping folks overcome that bondage.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=7.0
However if we judge a term based on presumptions required by a doctrine we have chosen to follow it's hard to get down to the truth.
Do you understand why you were unable to answer the question I asked, as to which of the 4 verses that detail the term antichrist, condemns the Roman church as being antichrist?
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/antichrist.htm
If presumptions based on identifiable heresy were the measure of antichrist, pretty much the whole body of Christ, would be condemned as antichrist.
You are chasing a bogeyman in the church, when the false prophet Muhammad declared
Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
If a Muslim confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, they have committed the single most egregious, and ONLY UNPARDONABLE, sin in Muhammad's 7th century cult. Now compare Muhammad's doctrine in light of a verse that contains the term antichrist
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:
You see? Each and every Muslim must deny that Jesus is the Son of God. 1.5 billion people - 1/4 of mankind - follow THE false prophet Muhammed SPECIFICALLY through the spirit of antichrist. EACH AND EVERY MUSLIM IS AN ANTICHRIST - as an absolute requirement, of the most important fundamental, in Muhammad's cult.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujUOZyrnewE
What else are Muslims required to deny as another important article of their "faith"?
Surah 4:157 That THEY SAID (in boast), "WE KILLED CHRIST JESUS the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- BUT THEY KILLED HIM NOT, NOR CRUCIFIED HIM, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, FOR OF A SURETY THEY KILLED HIM NOT:-
Islam 101
http://www.petewaldo.com/
They are required to deny the blood of the Lamb of God. The very blood that would save them.
Are Roman Catholics required to deny that Jesus is the Son of God?
Are Roman Catholics required to deny the blood of the Lamb of God?
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm#cults
(added video "Islam the perfect opposite" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9Rdej28pP4 )
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Pete 4-5
[[[[ It should also be noted that the beast in Revelations demands to be worshipped while the Imam Mahdi does not.]]]]
By making a declaration like that, you do realize, that you are crediting prophecy in the Quran as being divinely inspired.
However the Quran was inspired by Satan, so to give credit to Quranic prophecy, is to believe Satan, the father of lies.
Secondly, Daniel defined the term "beast" as a kingdom, when used in the figurative language of a dream or vision in prophecy. 1.5 billion people worship the false prophet Muhammad's antichrist Islamic beast.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm
I presume my earlier presumption was correct that you are SDA and follow Ellen White (who came along after the Millerites and their "Great Disappointment")?
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm#cults
Why not try employing a little sound study practices through hermeneutics? The truth is so much more of a blessing then 20th century false eschatology. The truth will open your eyes like you could never have imagined before.
(attached video of "The "beast" of Revelation 13" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJODE7Q2KcM )
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Respondent 4-5
"My sympathies don't lie with the Roman Church"?
Good to hear.
"However if we judge a term based on presumptions required by a doctrine we have chosen to follow it's hard to get down to the truth."
I'm not presuming anything, I am confident enough to say that the papacy is the prophecized antichrist.
"Do you understand why you were unable to answer the question I asked, as to which of the 4 verses that detail the term antichrist, condemns the Roman church as being antichrist?"
Even if I were to identify antichrist with your method, I still will have to say that it is the papacy. The pope denies the Father and the Son by proclaiming himself to be the "Holy Father" and the "Head of the Church", titles which belong to God the Father and Jesus the Son. He then further undermines the Sacrifice of Jesus by proclaiming that we can be saved through good works alone.
"If presumptions based on identifiable heresy were the measure of antichrist, pretty much the whole body of Christ, would be condemned as antichrist."
Again, I'm not making presumptions. I can prove it to you biblically if you want. And why are you equating "the whole body of Christ" as the papacy. I only want to rebuke the papacy not the Body of Christ.
"You are chasing a bogeyman in the church,"
LOL, you think the Pope is a bogeyman.
"when the false prophet Muhammad declared
Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!"
This is another proof that Islam is false. Some Muslims actually thought that Christians believe that God had sex with "Mother Mary" to produce Jesus.
I don't deny that Islam is an antichrist, but its still not "the antichrist" or "the beast".
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Respondent 4-5
"By making a declaration like that, you do realize, that you are crediting prophecy in the Quran as being divinely inspired."
I'm not crediting Islam with anything but think about it, if the Imam Mahdi claims to be God won't there be a huge revolt by the Muslims or something because the Muslims won't except any other God but their precious "Allah".
"Secondly, Daniel defined the term "beast" as a kingdom, when used in the figurative language of a dream or vision in prophecy. 1.5 billion people worship the false prophet"?
As if the Pope doesn't have a kingdom:
1) During the middle ages, the kings of Europe have to be crowned by the pope or be called "heretics".
2) Pope is head-of-state of Vatican City.
3) The pope is carried around like he is some sort of king.
4) When Ian Paisly denounced the pope, the EU forced him to leave the building, some even threw objects at him.
"I presume my earlier presumption was correct that you are SDA and follow Ellen White"?
Wrong again my friend. I am a Baptist. And don't you think it is quite ignorant for you to assume that SDAs are the only ones to believe that the Pope is antichrist? Many other faithful people who are not SDA believed that the papacy is anti-christ.
Such as:
Charles Spurgeon(1834-1892) - "It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not the popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name."
John Calvin(1509-1564) - "Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist."
"Antichrist and his ten kingdoms", by John Wesley(1703-1791), pg 110 - "He(pope) is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers... He(pope) it is... that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped... claiming the highest power, and highest honour... claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone."
Roger Williams(1603-1683) (First Baptist Pastor in America) - "the pretended Vicar of Christ on earth, who sits as God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not only above all that is called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vassals, yea over the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself... speaking against the God of heaven, thinking to change times and laws; but he is the son of perdition."
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Pete 4-5
[[[["Do you understand why you were unable to answer the question I asked, as to which of the 4 verses that detail the term antichrist, condemns the Roman church as being antichrist?"
Even if I were to identify antichrist with your method, .....]]]]
Sure. It doesn't really make any sense to start with the verses that actually use the term antichrist, does it! That would be simply crazy, wouldn't it?
[[[[...... I still will have to say that it is the papacy.]]]]
The pope denies the Father and the Son by proclaiming himself to be the "Holy Father" and the "Head of the Church", .......]]]]
Now you've gone beyond false presumption, and pile on false accusation (2 Tim 3), to advance your false doctrine. The pope recognizes both the Father and the Son.
[[[[...... titles which belong to God the Father and Jesus the Son. He then further undermines the Sacrifice of Jesus by proclaiming that we can be saved through good works alone.]]]]
Works alone eigh? You did it again. The Pope believes we are saved by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, though they also hold the heresy of a doctrine of works.
That terrible awful Mother Theresa eigh?
[[[[I don't deny that Islam is an antichrist, but its still not "the antichrist" or "the beast".]]]]
And of course this was the whole reason for me to finally sent the video with a note. To show folks of every denomination and cult, how stumbling around blind the 20th century "church" was made to Islam in prophecy, by a bunch of 19th century false prophets and false teachers.
Here's how Daniel DEFINES the term "beast" when used in a vision or dream in prophecy, in a passage that includes a lion, bear and leopard "beasts", which is also how John describes his composite leopard-bear-lion beast in Rev 13.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm
Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth BEAST shall be the fourth KINGDOM upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
We learn that with a little sound study practice called an adjacent hermeneutic. But hey, what difference does truth matter anyway, eigh?
Please show me where scripture (not some New Age bible version or some SDA bible) defines the term "beast" as an individual "The Antichrist"?
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/antichrist.htm
(attached video "John's 8 beasts" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6GXi0KU_WQ )
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Pete 4-5
PS
So I guess all the Muslims are going to convert to Roman Catholicism eigh?
(attached "origins of fables and myths" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grPwQ2obbFA )
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Pete 4-5
[[[["By making a declaration like that, you do realize, that you are crediting prophecy in the Quran as being divinely inspired."
I'm not crediting Islam with anything but think about it, if the Imam Mahdi ......]]]]
See how comically hypocritical that is? You say you aren't crediting Islam with anything, then you continue to go on about the Muhammad's PROPHESIED one-eyed bogeyman!
[[[[........ claims to be God won't there be a huge revolt by the Muslims or something because the Muslims won't except any other God but their precious "Allah". ]]]]
You traded Ellen White's fable for Satan's fable and then embellish it with your imagination.
Meanwhile all this time you are so busy directing your condemnation at the Roman Church, there are 1.5 billion Muslims that must deny that Jesus is the Son of God and deny the blood that bought them, as primary articles of Muhammad's cult.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm#cults
(attached "The name "Allah" - moon god? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slLBam06iyg )
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Pete 4-5
[[[["I presume my earlier presumption was correct that you are SDA and follow Ellen White"?
Wrong again my friend. I am a Baptist. And don't you think it is quite ignorant for you to assume that SDAs are the only ones to believe that the Pope is antichrist? Many other faithful people who are not SDA believed that the papacy is anti-christ.]]]]
While there is no shortage of Baptists, and protestants in general, that associate the Roman Church with the great whore, as do I as being a part of false institutions, what sect of Baptists believe that the papacy is THE Antichrist?
There were no shortage of men that tried to fit the Roman Church into the role, as the smoke of the burning flesh of the Reformers filled the air, never the less you haven't yet made the argument through the 4 verses that actually contain the term.
(attached "church tradition" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KtSpB4Id8I )
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pete 4-5
But then, it seems you also, otherwise, got tangled up. You said....
[[[[And why are you equating "the whole body of Christ" as the papacy. I only want to rebuke the papacy not the Body of Christ.]]]]
The body of Christ is composed of regenerate, or born again, individuals.
You seemed to want to single out the Papacy....
[[[[["Secondly, Daniel defined the term "beast" as a kingdom, when used in the figurative language of a dream or vision in prophecy. 1.5 billion people worship the false prophet"?
As if the Pope doesn't have a kingdom:
1) During the middle ages, the kings of Europe have to be crowned by the pope or be called "heretics".
2) Pope is head-of-state of Vatican City.
3) The pope is carried around like he is some sort of king.
4) When Ian Paisly denounced the pope, the EU forced him to leave the building, some even threw objects at him. ]]]]]
But then you condemned the laity of the Roman Church as being within kingdom.
Do you believe one is saved by the doctrine one holds, or the condition of one's heart?
Do you believe that Mother Theresa, for example, is burning in hell?
Are Roman Catholics antichrist? Do they deny that Jesus is the Son of God?
You condemned the Roman Church as a kingdom, even after I explained to you that EACH AND EVERY FOLLOWER OF MUHAMMAD, is NECESSARILY REQUIRED to DENY that Jesus is the Son of God within the most important article of their faith.
And EACH AND EVERY FOLLOWER OF MUHAMMAD, is NECESSARILY REQUIRED to DENY THE BLOOD THAT WOULD SAVE THEM, as an important article of their faith.
THE ENTIRE KINGDOM OF MUHAMMAD'S ISLAMIC "BEAST" - TO THE MAN - IS COMPELLED TO DENY THE WHOLE SUBJECT OF THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST.
THEY ARE 100% UNITED IN THESE DENIALS THROUGH THE SPIRIT OF ANTICHRIST.
Yet the bondage of your doctrine causes you to point your finger within the body of Christ.
(attached "who died on the cross according to islam" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6vZnfoyok4 )
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respondent 4-5
Are you saying the papacy is "within the Body of Christ"?
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respondent 4-5
"You condemned the Roman Church as a kingdom, even after I explained to you that EACH AND EVERY FOLLOWER OF MUHAMMAD, is NECESSARILY REQUIRED to DENY that Jesus is the Son of God within the most important article of their faith."?
Well, the Pope expects everyone who wants to be called a Christian to recognize him as "Head of Church" or be put to death or excommunicated.
"Do you believe that Mother Theresa, for example, is burning in hell?"
Not for me to say.
"Are Roman Catholics antichrist?"
Not all. There are still some that see Christ as their only Saviour. However, believe it or not, there are some who would rather worship Mary than Jesus. And would rather pray to the dead than Christ.
"Do they deny that Jesus is the Son of God?"
Some do believe it or not. They have forsaken the Christ alone doctrine for works-only-salvation. Some don't even know much about Jesus Christ, seeing Him as just a lousy painting on the wall.
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pete 4-6
[[[["You condemned the Roman Church as a kingdom, even after I explained to you that EACH AND EVERY FOLLOWER OF MUHAMMAD, is NECESSARILY REQUIRED to DENY that Jesus is the Son of God within the most important article of their faith."?
"Are Roman Catholics antichrist?"
Not all. There are still some that see Christ as their only Saviour. However, believe it or not, there are some who would rather worship Mary than Jesus. And would rather pray to the dead than Christ.
"Do they deny that Jesus is the Son of God?"
Some do believe it or not.]]]]]
What Roman Catholic would deny that Jesus is the Son of God? Can you see how you will go to any lengths, including lying about what Roman Catholics believe, as long as it helps you continue to stumble along blind in your doctrine?
This even though you cannot deny that ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE, and the verses that contain the term, Roman Catholics are specifically not antichrist, while there are unarguably 1.5 billion antichrists - 1/4 of mankind - that follow the false prophet Muhammad, as the most important article of their faith.
Catholics "We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father…We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life…"
Muhammadans Surah 9.30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
Yet even now, I have every confidence that you would rather continue to lie about Roman Catholics in rebellion against God Himself, while continuing to ignore the scriptures, in order to be able to continue in your cherished false doctrine.
Helping to confirm my original point, when I said YOU - referring the couple hundred people I was addressing, most of them Christian - follow a doctrine that NECESSARILY PRECLUDES EVEN CONSIDERING that Muhammad could be THE false prophet of the book of Revelation.
There's obviously no point in our engaging in further discussion. I'll dust my feet off at the door on my way out.
[[[[ They have forsaken the Christ alone doctrine for works-only-salvation. Some don't even know much about Jesus Christ, seeing Him as just a lousy painting on the wall.
Even as you can see that ]]]]
(History of Mecca http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bq8VOZbuu-Q )
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pete 4-6
[[[["Do they deny that Jesus is the Son of God?"
Some do believe it or not.]]]]
Catholics "We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father…We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life…"
Considering your casual willingness, to lie about the beliefs of members of the body of Christ, you might consider the term used in this verse.
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.
(attached "The beast of Revelation 13" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJODE7Q2KcM )
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Pete 4-6
[[[My arguments were directed against the Pope in general not the Roman Catholic People.]]]]
Perhaps you didn't keep a record of our chat. I copy and pasted it into the forum so you could check the veracity of your above declaration. You are welcome to log in using any ID you like, so you don't compromise your YouTube ID.
All we require is that members engage in an exchange. That is, respond to replies, to each others responses.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2451.msg10212#msg10212
(Attached "Proof of God" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ManZPZeROdc )
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respondent 4-7
"Perhaps you didn't keep a record of our chat."
No, you didn't keep record of our chat. Let me ask you something. Are you Zionist or something? If you are going to call Islam anti-christ just because they don't receive Jesus, then what about all the Talmud-loving Jewish people who say that God has no Son? They are still awaiting their Messiah when He(Jesus) has already come. What about Buddhism? They are waiting for "Maitreya". If I go with your 4 verse identification of the anti-christ, then it looks like there are not 1 but many anti-christs.
And you call yourself "PeteWaldo"? The real Peter Waldo wasn't so blind to the crimes of the Papacy like you are. You still dare to call the Pope "part of the Body of Christ" even when Popes have ordered the deaths of many true believers? Even when Benedict said that no one outside the authority of the Vatican is saved?
How shameless of you.
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Pete 4-9
[[[[....then what about all the Talmud-loving Jewish people...]]]]
The only Talmud lovers I have come across, are anti-Semites that call themselves Christians, who desire to use it as an excuse to condemn all non-messianic Jews. This even as the Jews do not consider the Talmud to be inspired, while Christians and Jews share the very same, inspired Old Testament books.
There is a good reason that your mind compels you to refuse to discern a difference between Muslims and Jews. Replacement theology can bend hearts and minds to such an extent that it can result in so much hatred for Jews, that leaders of the Presbyterian Church, for example, met with Hezbollah while divesting of Israeli assets.
Just a few days ago another thousand Christians were slaughtered, on the Ivory Coast of Africa, by the new Muslim government there (that Obama and the U.N. support).
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2484.0
How many Christians have been targeted for murder by Jews over the last 1400 years?
Even 2,000 years ago it was Jews and Christians, being martyred by Roman gentiles. Now by Islamic gentiles, just as prophesied of the seed of Ishmael.
Have you bothered to investigate such things as the history of Gaza?
50 years ago ago the productive Israelis built it from barren desert.
[[[[....who say that God has no Son? They are still awaiting their Messiah when He(Jesus) has already come.]]]]
That's right. Some Jews are still waiting for their promised Son.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Because God Himself blinded some of them, so they couldn't sin against the Gospel.
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOLVFwGd1no
Even the Old Testament saints were saved by the Son - the ONE mediator between man and God.
Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
(sent with "Gaza & Israel" video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZF93B2iQHA )
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followed by a Q&A on 4-8
[[["Perhaps you didn't keep a record of our chat."
No, you didn't keep record of our chat. Let me ask you something. Are you Zionist or something? If you are going to call Islam anti-christ just because they don't receive Jesus, then what about all the Talmud-loving Jewish people who say that God has no Son? They are still awaiting their Messiah when He(Jesus) has already come. ]]]]
Who killed Jesus?
[[[The Jews and the Romans.]]]]
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4-8
[[[["Perhaps you didn't keep a record of our chat."
No, you didn't keep record of our chat. Let me ask you something. Are you Zionist or something?]]]]
Do you support the Palestinians?
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4-8
[[[[Should I? The Jews don't even accept Jesus as their Messiah and you want me to side with them? Until they do, I'm not obligated to support either side.]]]]
What do you think of this quote?
"If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel" -Benjamin Netanyahu
[[[[I primarily care about those Jews and Arabs who are Christian and love Jesus as their Saviour and are caught between the clash between Jews and Muslims.
I can only pray that the Jews and the Arabs will unite in Christ's name and throw away their Talmud and Quran.]]]]
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4-9
[[[[....then what about all the Talmud-loving Jewish people...]]]]
The only Talmud lovers I have come across, are anti-Semites that call themselves Christians, who desire to use it as an excuse to condemn all non-messianic Jews. This even as the Jews do not consider the Talmud to be inspired, while Christians and Jews share the very same, inspired Old Testament books.
There is a good reason that your mind compels you to refuse to discern a difference between Muslims and Jews. Replacement theology can bend hearts and minds to such an extent that it can result in so much hatred for Jews, that leaders of the Presbyterian Church, for example, met with Hezbollah while divesting of Israeli assets.
Just a few days ago another thousand Christians were slaughtered, on the Ivory Coast of Africa, by the new Muslim government there (that Obama and the U.N. support).
How many Christians have been targeted for murder by Jews over the last 1400 years?
Even 2,000 years ago it was Jews and Christians, being martyred by Roman gentiles. Now by Islamic gentiles, just as prophesied of the seed of Ishmael.
Have you bothered to investigate such things as the history of Gaza?
50 years ago ago the productive Israelis built it from barren desert.
[[[[....who say that God has no Son? They are still awaiting their Messiah when He(Jesus) has already come.]]]]
That's right. Some Jews are still waiting for their promised Son.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Because God Himself blinded some of them, so they couldn't sin against the Gospel.
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOLVFwGd1no
Even the Old Testament saints were saved by the Son - the ONE mediator between man and God.
Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
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4-9
[[[[....then what about all the Talmud-loving Jewish people...]]]]
The only Talmud lovers I have come across, are anti-Semites that call themselves Christians, who desire to use it as an excuse to condemn all non-messianic Jews. This even as the Jews do not consider the Talmud to be inspired, while Christians and Jews share the very same, inspired Old Testament books.
There is a good reason that your mind compels you to refuse to discern a difference between Muslims and Jews. Replacement theology can bend hearts and minds to such an extent that it can result in so much hatred for Jews, that leaders of the Presbyterian Church, for example, met with Hezbollah while divesting of Israeli assets.
Just a few days ago another thousand Christians were slaughtered, on the Ivory Coast of Africa, by the new Muslim government there (that Obama and the U.N. support).
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2484.0
How many Christians have been targeted for murder by Jews over the last 1400 years?
Even 2,000 years ago it was Jews and Christians, being martyred by Roman gentiles. Now by Islamic gentiles, just as prophesied of the seed of Ishmael.
Have you bothered to investigate such things as the history of Gaza?
50 years ago ago the productive Israelis built it from barren desert.
[[[[....who say that God has no Son? They are still awaiting their Messiah when He(Jesus) has already come.]]]]
That's right. Some Jews are still waiting for their promised Son.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Because God Himself blinded some of them, so they couldn't sin against the Gospel.
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOLVFwGd1no
Even the Old Testament saints were saved by the Son - the ONE mediator between man and God.
Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
(sent with "Gaza & Israel" video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZF93B2iQHA )
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4-7
"Perhaps you didn't keep a record of our chat."
No, you didn't keep record of our chat.
But I did, and I sent you a link to that record, so I don't know why you would want to declare such a transparently false, and petty, accusation.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2451.msg10234#msg10234
Let me ask you something. Are you Zionist or something?
Are you an anti-Zionist or something?
A better question is, is Yahweh a Zionist?
Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Perhaps when your God says "everlasting" He doesn't mean it, but mine sure does.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=494.0
And the Jews were restored to their land, right on Daniel's prophetic time table.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=77.0
If you are going to call Islam anti-christ just because they don't receive Jesus, then what about all the Talmud-loving Jewish people who say that God has no Son? They are still awaiting their Messiah when He(Jesus) has already come.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2451.msg10253#msg10253
What about Buddhism? They are waiting for "Maitreya".
Just as Muslims are awaiting their individual bogeyman, and Christian futurists are awaiting their future individual bogeyman, preterists say Nero was the individual bogeyman, and you declare the papacy is the individual bogeyman, while there are 1.5 billion antichrists in the world today, in Islam alone.
If I go with your 4 verse identification of the anti-christ, then it looks like there are not 1 but many anti-christs.
Isn't it a pain when scripture gets in the way of a perfectly good heresy that one chooses to follow?
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Even when John penned that verse in the first century there were many antichrists.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=624.0
And you call yourself "PeteWaldo"? The real Peter Waldo wasn't so blind to the crimes of the Papacy like you are.
Actually, unlike other reformers, when Peter Waldo set out on his journey he didn't have any beefs with Roman Church doctrine whatsoever. He was a wealthy man that asked heads of the Roman Church how he could get closer to Christ. Since he was a wealthy man, they advised that he first needed to get rid of all his wealth. That's exactly what he did, and then he went out to preach the Gospel. The Roman Church didn't like it, even though he began by preaching their doctrine, because he was taking the profitability out of the bondage they had over their adherents. Though as his ministry developed I have no doubt that he, as the other reformers, continually ran across Roman doctrine that was exactly contrary to scripture.
You still dare to call the Pope "part of the Body of Christ" .......
This is why I keep a record of chats. Once folks begin to become lost in the confusion of their false doctrine, often the response is to lash out with false accusations. But unless you are going to make the claim that the entirety of the laity of the Roman Church is lost, then you are going to have to agree that the Roman Church is part of the body of Christ, whether the pope is or not.
As you yourself tacitly admitted.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2451.msg10234#msg10234
It isn't up to me to judge the pope, but it is incumbent upon all Christians to judge Roman Church doctrine as well as all other church doctrine like the heresy that you choose to follow, in the light of scripture, because we are instructed to....
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=7.0
....... even when Popes have ordered the deaths of many true believers? Even when Benedict said that no one outside the authority of the Vatican is saved?
And as I mentioned at the beginning of our chat, we have a whole forum section devoted to helping Roman Catholics overcome the bondage of that church.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2451.msg10214#msg10214
Seems you want to give the Roman Catholic laity or body a pass, even as you believe the Roman Church is John's "beast" kingdom. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2451.msg10219#msg10219
How shameless of you.
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"The only Talmud lovers I have come across, are anti-Semites that call themselves Christians"?
Just because I use the Talmud as a good proof to show that the non-messianic Jews are not really God's people, doesn't mean I love the Talmud. In fact, I want to see it torn apart and buried in the ground like dung.
And don't try to connect me with replacement theology. The Jews will have their promises fulfilled. But it is by the hand of God, not by the filthy hands of men who drive civillians from their homes. Can you find me a verse that says that I am obligated to agree to every decision of the Jews even if they are wrong or build the third temple? Why should the Third Temple be built? So that the animal sacrifice can continue again? The animal sacrifices which in the past pointed to a Saviour, Christ Jesus, who has already come? That makes no sense.
"Just a few days ago another thousand Christians were slaughtered, on the Ivory Coast of Africa, by the new Muslim government there (that Obama and the U.N. support)."?
And why am I not suprised? It is as if that buffoon Obama only learned how to use a fork and knife during his education. The UN is responsible for all the crap that is happening in the middle east in the first place.
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4-9
"The only Talmud lovers I have come across, are anti-Semites that call themselves Christians"?
Just because I use the Talmud as a good proof to show that the non-messianic Jews are not really God's people, doesn't mean I love the Talmud.
The Talmud isn't "proof" of anything. But you do love the Talmud, just as skinheads and Nazis do, and for the same reason.
That's why you don't judge Jews in the light of the Old Testament books that THEY THEMSELVES, as well as Christians, consider inspired.
What you are lying against Jews, as if they all loved the entirety of the Talmud, that they themselves do not even consider inspired, in order to condemn them as a group.
Why don't you condemn your own church with Jehovah's Witness doctrine?
Why don't you condemn your Gospel in the light of the LDS pop-gospel?
In fact, I want to see it torn apart and buried in the ground like dung.
And don't try to connect me with replacement theology.
I wonder how I could have gotten such a mistaken impression when you declared...
"I primarily care about those Jews and Arabs who are Christian and love Jesus as their Saviour and are caught between the clash between Jews and Muslims."
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2451.msg10260#msg10260
But as Christians we are called to - much more than care - about everybody. We are called to love our neighbors as ourselves.
The Jews will have their promises fulfilled.
Yet you lump them together with Muhammad's followers.
Are Muslims going to have Muhammad's promise, of the chicken and wine serving bordello that he called "paradise", fulfilled too?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=264.0
But it is by the hand of God, not by the filthy hands of men who drive civillians from their homes. Can you find me a verse that says that I am obligated to agree to every decision of the Jews .......
As the wheels increasingly spin off.... "Can you find me a verse that says that I am obligated to agree to every decision" of "the Jews".
Hitler and Muhammad considered all Jews as a monolithic group too!
....... even if they are wrong or build the third temple? Why should the Third Temple be built?
I already explained the blindness that Yahweh gave some Jews.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2451.msg10253#msg10253
What is more inexcusable to me, is Christian doctrine that calls for a third temple, without scriptural support in the Gospel. I believe the doctrine borders on blasphemy.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=552.0
So that the animal sacrifice can continue again? The animal sacrifices which in the past pointed to a Saviour, Christ Jesus, who has already come? That makes no sense.
It makes no sense to you because you haven't been blinded to the Gospel.
But consider it if you were a faithful Jew, whose life revolves around his temple and community, looking at it in the light of only the Old Testament scriptures.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=36.0
"Just a few days ago another thousand Christians were slaughtered, on the Ivory Coast of Africa, by the new Muslim government there (that Obama and the U.N. support)."?
And why am I not suprised? It is as if that buffoon Obama only learned how to use a fork and knife during his education. The UN is responsible for all the crap that is happening in the middle east in the first place.
Sure. Just like the rape, pillage and plunder of nearly the whole known world by the Islamic first jihad, all the way up to France and Austria, was the U.N.'s fault. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with Muhammad's political, murderous, 7th century death cult, could it. That wouldn't fit your doctrine, would it.
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Pete 4-9 PM
[[[[The UN is responsible for all the crap that is happening in the middle east in the first place.]]]]
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2451.msg10265#msg10265
Sure. Just like the rape, pillage and plunder of nearly the whole known world by the Islamic first jihad, all the way up to France and Austria, was the U.N.'s fault. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with Muhammad's political, murderous, 7th century death cult, could it. That wouldn't fit your doctrine, would it.
But then you never did explain to me who you believe THE false prophet of the book of Revelation is, did you?
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followed by a Q&A on 4-8
[[["Perhaps you didn't keep a record of our chat."
No, you didn't keep record of our chat. Let me ask you something. Are you Zionist or something? If you are going to call Islam anti-christ just because they don't receive Jesus, then what about all the Talmud-loving Jewish people who say that God has no Son? They are still awaiting their Messiah when He(Jesus) has already come. ]]]]
Who killed Jesus?
[[[The Jews and the Romans.]]]]
This is perhaps the single greatest tragedy that results from replacement theology and begins the finger pointing.
It wasn't the Jews, or the Romans, that killed Jesus.
It was the sinful nature of mankind that killed Jesus.
It was you and I that killed Jesus - the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
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Hello,
I realize this is an old thread but the subject is interesting. I found this forum and I do find much of the information on Islam to be quite educational. I always figured that they had a place in prophecy somewhere. As for those who deny Jesus as the son of God, is the common belief in this forum that Jesus is God or at least part of the trinity? Just curious as I have heard this argument from many on both ends of the spectrum that one must believe either Jesus is part of the trinity or believe that he is not.
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Hello Lee, welcome to the Forum and happy New Year! Hope you had a blessed Christmas.
Hello,
I realize this is an old thread but the subject is interesting. I found this forum and I do find much of the information on Islam to be quite educational. I always figured that they had a place in prophecy somewhere. As for those who deny Jesus as the son of God, is the common belief in this forum that Jesus is God or at least part of the trinity? Just curious as I have heard this argument from many on both ends of the spectrum that one must believe either Jesus is part of the trinity or believe that he is not.
How could Jesus not be part of what is referred to as the "trinity" when there are hundreds of verses that proclaim Jesus to be the Son of God, God His Father and the Holy Spirit?
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Though there's no shortage of folks that don't understand the triune nature of the Godhead and some that have even created their own trinity.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4256.0
There are a number of threads on the subject of the trinity, as well as the divinity of Christ, in the following forum section.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=40.0
Again, welcome to the Forum Lee.