Islam, Muslim / Christian Forum - Welcome All
General Category => Authority in the "Church" => Topic started by: PeteWaldo on November 26, 2014, 10:59:51 AM
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Out of the blue I was thrust into the middle of a conversation that had a dozen or more email recipients, so this first response was sent to everyone. The rest of the responses were to pastorX, who responded to my email, whose name and church name I redacted. After the long protracted ignoring upon ignoring of my questions, the little that he revealed of his unique view can be found at this link (http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4409.msg17370#msg17370):
"After reading most of the webpages you linked I still believe the "beast" is the American /Revived Roman Empire, whose reins are currently held by the woman of Rev. 17, the Mother of Harlots, and whose current figurehead is a Muslim that calls himself a Christian, and who created and funded ISIS, the Islamic State that is beheading Christians in Syria and surrounding regions. The "man of sin" in 2 Thes. 2 (and Dan. 9:26-27) is a man Pete, who for 3-1/2 years will have civil authority over every kindred, tribe & tongue on earth. You are dwelling in the midst of last days Babylon..."
News headline exegesis of scripture and writing Obama into Bible prophecy, while creating his own personal unique one-off eschatology, even as he criticized the Reformers for:
"First, I would by no means call historicism uniform. It has led to a wide variety of interpretations, with adherents having a tendency to interpret the text based on events of their day."
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4409.msg17393#msg17393
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From: John Williams
Date: Tue, November 11, 2014 10:53 am
To: pastorX
Hello Pastor X,
I don't understand how or why I was included in this conversation, but for the time being I will presume that the Lord may be responsible, as perhaps there may someone on this list that has ears to hear.
I take the uniform and traditional approach of historicism to all Bible prophecy, as the available evidence suggests the church did for its first 1800 years, including those great men of God of the Reformation. Within that traditional historicist approach, in combination with sound hermeneutic principles, one can easily recognize the false prophet Muhammad as THE false prophet of the book of Revelation, and his Islamic kingdom "beast" as the final foe of God's people.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm
Gee, who could have imagined, since Muhammad's followers are required to DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ and thus REJECT His shed blood, and DENY and blaspheme the Son of God, as articles of their faith in Muhammad alone. Indeed Islam is so antichrist Muhammad's followers are taught that to confess that Jesus is the Son of God, or even to pray in Jesus' name, is to commit the single most "heinous" and only unforgivable sin ("shirk") in Muhammadanism.
http://www.petewaldo.com/unforgivable_shirk.htm
So is it any surprise to find they are commanded by Muhammad through the Quran and Hadith, to conquer all kingdoms and subjugate all people to Muhammad's followers, and ultimately to reject the crucifixion and shed blood of the Lamb of God, and reject the Son of God Himself, to follow Muhammad alone.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm
It's all really quite straightforward, if we can allow ourselves even for a few moments, to set aside the pre-conceived notions we have been taught through the 19th-20th century popularized eschatologies of futurism and preterism. Adherents of each pop-view, necessarily having to believe the other to be virtually 100% in error, regarding their understanding of Revelation after chapter 3. Thus it shouldn't be surprising that both views necessarily preclude adherents from even considering, that Muhammad could be the false prophet.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/#limitations_futurism_preterism
For anyone that has an interest it is explained in more detail on several websites, and we host a chat forum to entertain questions, with a well functioning topic search function.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php
Sincerely, your brother in Christ Jesus,
Pete
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On Thursday, November 13, 2014 8:41 AM, pastorX
Dear Bro. Pete,
Perhaps my response should have been directed only to the person that sent the prior email rather than to the entire list he had copied, but I am thankful that you took the time to write back. In the interest of sharpening iron, and also to hopefully help you see the beast that is now rising in our own day, I want to tell you why I some time back rejected the historicist approach to the Revelation, which as I understand it holds that the Revelation presents the course of history from the apostle’s life through the end of the age, with the symbols therein corresponding to specific events in the history of Western Europe , including various popes, the Protestant Reformation, the French Revolution, and rulers such as Charlemagne. I believe many of the reformers held that the breaking of the seals in chapters 4-7 symbolizes the fall of the Roman Empire, the Trumpet judgments in chapters 8-10 represent the invasions of the Roman Empire by the Vandals, Huns, Saracens, and Turks, etc.
First, I would by no means call historicism uniform. It has led to a wide variety of interpretations, with adherents having a tendency to interpret the text based on events of their day. Also, the view focused on the struggle in western Europe between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism and had little application to the eastern church.
Secondly, you are incorrect in stating that the church held to this view during its first 1800 years. To the contrary, the available evidence shows convincingly that the early church was, at least until the days of the edict of Milan and Constantine's state church of the 4th century, decidedly futurist and premillennial in its view of the Revelation. Virtually everyone who wrote on this topic for the first three hundred years of the church's history was a premillennialist, including Clement of Rome (AD 96), Ignatius of Antioch, a student of John the Apostle (AD 35-117), Papias (AD 60-130), Theophilus of Antioch (AD 115-181), Justin Martyr (AD 100-165), Irenaeus (AD 115-202), Tertullian (AD 150-225) and others. Papias, bishop of Hierapolis in Phrygia, wrote "that there will be a millennium after the resurrection of the dead, when the kingdom of Christ will beset up in material form on this earth." Justin Martyr, in his Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew, c. AD 140, acknowledged that while there were dissenters from the orthodox view; "...I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then he built, adorned, and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare... And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place."
Two of the greatest ante-Nicene fathers were Irenaeus and Tertullian (AD 160-230). Irenaeus was discipled by Polycarp, a student of the Apostle John. Irenaeus wrote extensively about Bible prophecy in his last five chapters of Against Heresies, which were suppressed throughout the Middle Ages by anti-premillennialists and rediscovered in 1571, which contributed to a revival of premillennialism in the early 1600s. "John, therefore, did distinctly foresee the first 'resurrection of the just,' and the inheritance in the kingdom of the earth... and what the prophets have prophesied concerning it harmonize [with John]..But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom."
Third, I do not hold as high regard as do some for "reformers" like Calvin and Luther, who retained far too much of the sacerdotalism, statism and pedobaptism of their mother Catholic church. I have far more respect for the "annabaptists" that guarded the scriptures and maintained the doctrines of the early church throughout the centuries that preceded the "reformation" - Paulines, Albigenses, Donatists, Waldenses and others who never went into the Roman Harlot church in the first place.
In my view, premillennialism is so clearly taught in Revelation 19 and 20 that it is hard to understand how anyone can think otherwise without realizing honestly that they are going against the Biblical text. I do agree with the reformers that the Roman Catholic church is Mystery Babylon of Rev. 17; however I see the false prophet as the papacy, and the antichrist as coming to power initially as a political/military tyrant, but who will eventually demand emperor worship as did the Caesars. In studying the role of the Vatican and its Jesuit infiltrators in the creation and continued control over the USA (see Tupper Saucy's excellent work on this subject, attached), I have come dogmatically to the position that indeed America has become and now is the daughter of Babylon seen in Rev. 18 and Jeremiah 50-51, whose mother is indeed the Roman Harlot of Rev. 17. In that sense the global empire being built in this "new American century" - this "new world order" as symbolized on the backside of every one dollar bill, the building block of the global economy; is in fact the revived Roman empire, through which the antichrist will come to power (and may already have).
I would commend these audio messages to your hearing when you have time:
America IS Babylon - The Evidence
America's Mother: ROME - The Vatican Connection
The Relevance of the Revelation - The Folly of Preterism
Again, thank you for writing.
In Jesus,
From: John Williams
On Sunday, November 23, 2014 11:41 AM,
On Thursday, November 13, 2014 8:41 AM, pastorX
Dear Bro. Pete,
Perhaps my response should have been directed only to the person that sent the prior email rather than to the entire list he had copied, but I am thankful that you took the time to write back. In the interest of sharpening iron, and also to hopefully help you see the beast that is now rising in our own day,.......
There is no question in my mind, now that the mortal wound of the Islamic kingdom beast is healed as revealed through this Second Islamic Jihad, in the image of the First Islamic Jihad, and I challenge you to present a more hermeneutically sound exegesis of Revelation 13 than that.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm
........I want to tell you why I some time back rejected the historicist approach to the Revelation, which as I understand it holds that the Revelation presents the course of history from the apostle’s life through the end of the age,.........
Indeed, I am my brother John's companion in the tribulation.
............with the symbols therein corresponding to specific events in the history of Western Europe , including various popes, the Protestant Reformation, the French Revolution, and rulers such as Charlemagne.
The error you are engaging in is assigning specific doctrines or pre-conceived notions, as representing an entire approach to Bible prophecy, simply because they happen to share the approach Bible prophecy of the tradition of historicism. For example, just because Arnold Murray's Serpent Seed cult approaches Bible prophecy through the pop-approach of futurism, doesn't mean I think you, as a futurist, must believe that Eve literally had sex with Satan to father Cain.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/#red_herrings
I believe many of the reformers held that the breaking of the seals in chapters 4-7 symbolizes the fall of the Roman Empire, the Trumpet judgments in chapters 8-10 represent the invasions of the Roman Empire by the Vandals, Huns, Saracens, and Turks, etc.
Available evidence suggests that not only the Reformers, but the church for the first 1800 years took the historicist approach to all Bible prophecy.
First, I would by no means call historicism uniform. It has led to a wide variety of interpretations, with adherents having a tendency to interpret the text based on events of their day.
It is the figurative language of dreams and visions in prophecy that leads to a wide variety of interpretations. You yourself, as are Jews and Christians, are historicist when when it comes to Old Testament prophecy.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm
You simply choose to abandon a uniform approach to all Bible prophecy, in favor of John Nelson Darby's 19th century futurist eschatological scheme (credited as being the "father of modern dispensationalism and futurism).
http://www.christianeschatology.com/futurism_dispensationalism.htm#history_of_futurism
Also, the view focused on the struggle in western Europe between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism and had little application to the eastern church.
That's the point I made earlier. I would disagree with that view as you do. However that is no reason to throw out the entire traditional approach of historicism. Regarding your next section, the argument you are launching off on is counter-preterism, while ignoring historicism. If you review what you are claiming with the historicist approach it will help you see. Let alone that there was no small amount of heresy within the ECF writings, that is cited as support for most any pop-heresy. Just because we can find hints of any view in their writings, does not indicate it was the approach of the church throughout the rest of the Christian era.
Also it will help avoid confusion greatly if we can address views on a millennial reign separately, from whole approaches to prophecy.
Rather than my words, perhaps the easiest way I can help you see what I am saying regarding the source of your doctrine, is through the words of a very highly regarded lifetime futurist, Dr. Harry Ironside:
" until brought to the fore through the writings and the preaching and teaching of a distinguished ex-clergyman, Mr. J. N. Darby, in the early part of the last century, it is scarcely to be found in a single book or sermon throughout a period of sixteen hundred years! If any doubt this statement, let them search, as the writer has in measure done, the remarks of the so-called Fathers, both pre- and post-Nicene; the theological treatises of the scholastic divines; Roman Catholic writers of all shades of thought; the literature of the Reformation; the sermons and expositions of the Puritans; and the general theological works of the day. He will find "the mystery" conspicuous by its absence."
http://www.christianeschatology.com/futurism_dispensationalism.htm#history_of_futurism
I will continue with your email after sending this as I don't want to loose the work thus far.
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From: John Williams
Date: Sun, November 23, 2014 12:30 pm
To: "pastorX
Continued from the first part of your email (your words bolded):
Secondly, you are incorrect in stating that the church held to this view during its first 1800 years. To the contrary, the available evidence shows convincingly that the early church was, at least until the days of the edict of Milan and Constantine's state church of the 4th century, decidedly futurist and premillennial in its view of the Revelation. Virtually everyone who wrote on this topic for the first three hundred years of the church's history was a premillennialist, including Clement of Rome (AD 96), Ignatius of Antioch, a student of John the Apostle (AD 35-117), Papias (AD 60-130), Theophilus of Antioch (AD 115-181), Justin Martyr (AD 100-165), Irenaeus (AD 115-202), Tertullian (AD 150-225) and others. Papias, bishop of Hierapolis in Phrygia, wrote "that there will be a millennium after the resurrection of the dead, when the kingdom of Christ will beset up in material form on this earth." Justin Martyr, in his Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew, c. AD 140, acknowledged that while there were dissenters from the orthodox view; "...I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then he built, adorned, and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare... And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place."
Two of the greatest ante-Nicene fathers were Irenaeus and Tertullian (AD 160-230). Irenaeus was discipled by Polycarp, a student of the Apostle John. Irenaeus wrote extensively about Bible prophecy in his last five chapters of Against Heresies, which were suppressed throughout the Middle Ages by anti-premillennialists and rediscovered in 1571, which contributed to a revival of premillennialism in the early 1600s. "John, therefore, did distinctly foresee the first 'resurrection of the just,' and the inheritance in the kingdom of the earth... and what the prophets have prophesied concerning it harmonize [with John]..But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom."
Third, I do not hold as high regard as do some for "reformers" like Calvin and Luther, who retained far too much of the sacerdotalism, statism and pedobaptism of their mother Catholic church. I have far more respect for the "annabaptists" that guarded the scriptures and maintained the doctrines of the early church throughout the centuries that preceded the "reformation" - Paulines, Albigenses, Donatists, Waldenses and others who never went into the Roman Harlot church in the first place.
The reason we need to discuss millennial views separately, is that you are citing views on millennialism, as if doing so supports John Darby's 19th century "pre-trib" "rapture", 7-year tribulation, rebuilt temple, etc. etc., eschatological scheme. Anabapists for example, were pre-millennial historicists.
In my view, premillennialism is so clearly taught in Revelation 19 and 20 that it is hard to understand how anyone can think otherwise without realizing honestly that they are going against the Biblical text.
Whereas I can't understand how somebody could take an interpretation, of the figurative language of a prophetic vision (that even uses an indefinite plural for "thousand" in the passages you cite), to then turn around and use their interpretation to nullify the literal language of literal passages of the Gospel that are not open to interpretation.
Literal passages that clearly and unequivocally state that God does not dwell in temples made with hands. That Jesus built His temple nearly 2,000 years ago through His crucifixion, death and resurrection, just as He promised He would. That the true tabernacle is made without hands. That Jesus Christ Himself is the chief cornerstone.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm
Only to suggest that Jesus is supposed to rule a carnal kingdom, from a carnal temple of the flesh, on this earth, even when He told us that His kingdom is specifically not of this world.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/futurism_dispensationalism.htm#futurism_vs_gospel
I do agree with the reformers that the Roman Catholic church is Mystery Babylon of Rev. 17; however I see the false prophet as the papacy.......
Isn't that amazing? Today 1.5 billion people - 1/4 of mankind in the world today - are required to DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ, and thus REJECT His shed blood as an article of their faith in THE false prophet Muhammad alone. Are required to DENY and even blaspheme the Son of God, as another article of their faith. Thus each and every one of the 1.5 billion people are specifically and necessarily antichrist as a result of their faith in Muhammad alone. While you're probably waiting for a boogieman of some future someday.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm
Muhammad's followers are taught that to confess that Jesus is the Son of God, or even pray in Jesus' name, would be to commit the single most "heinous" and ONLY unforgivable sin in Islam. As opposed to mass murder or child rape which may be forgiven.
http://www.petewaldo.com/unforgivable_shirk.htm
Any surprise then that THE false prophet Muhammad commands his followers to conquer all kingdoms and subjugate all people to DISbelieving the Gospel and DENYING the Son of God.
http://www.petewaldo.com/jihad_conquest_terrorism.htm
Stark raving blind to the conflict by John Darby.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muhammad_islam_in_bible_prophecy.htm#the_conflict
I'll pray for you bro,
Pete
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On Monday, November 24, 2014 7:08 AM, "pastorX wrote:
Your rudeness does not at all bolster your position Pete. I strongly oppose Darby's pretrib scheme, and though based on Dan. 9:24-27 and 2 Thes. 2, I do believe a temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem, it will only be a further abominable expression of the Jews' rejection of Christ prior to their restoration at His coming (Rom. 11).
How do you interpret Dan. 12:1-3?
Bro. X
From: John Williams
Date: Tue, November 25, 2014 12:54 pm
To: pastorX
Dear pastorX,
Your rudeness does not at all bolster your position Pete.
My abrupt reply was the result of the prior reply basically being ignored, just was was my last, so it was more an expression of my frustration. However the manner in which I reply, does not alter the veracity of the position I take, but rather in how you receive it and for that you have my apologies bro. My position is bolstered or refuted, by careful consideration of each point, and then explaining what you believe to be in error and why. If you review your last reply I believe you will agree that all you basically did was explain that you believe something with little reason. By the way, I am a former Jack Van Impe - and later Calvary Chapel futurist, so I am familiar with futurist doctrine as I held it with my whole heart (at the time I was so naive I wasn't even aware there was any disagreement in the church!).
I do hope you will bear with me though as I believe that once you get a good peek into the traditional approach to prophecy, and how it paints a bull's eye on Muhammad's back as THE false prophet, and his Islamic kingdom as the "beast" of Revelation 13 and final foe of God's people, you will be hooked. I am optimistic because you were at least open enough to reply. All you have to do is to simply consider what you read with bias set aside, and completely on its own merit, rather than trying to wring it through the filter of your present doctrine. If you do consider the tradition of historicism through this particular study (that is even supported mathematically), completely on its own merit (rather than SDA or doctrines of other cults that happen to use this same approach that you yourself use for Old Testament prophecy), it will truly bless you.
I strongly oppose Darby's pretrib scheme,.....
Margaret MacDonald's pre-trib rapture invention, that Darby received by way of Edward Irving, isn't a scheme but rather only one component of Darby's overall eschatological scheme that includes a 7-year tribulation, rebuilt temple, that is desolated by an individual "The" "Antichrist", plus millennial reign on earth, etc. etc.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/end_time_myth.htm
.....and though based on Dan. 9:24-27 and 2 Thes. 2, I do believe a temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem, it will only be a further abominable expression.....
You have me confused by calling a rebuilt temple an "abominable expression". If you believe in the thousand year reign of Christ on earth, then what temple do you have Him ruling from? Do you believe a future temple will be desolated by "The" "Antichrist"? How could an "abominable expression" be desolated?
.....of the Jews' rejection of Christ prior to their restoration at His coming (Rom. 11).
Interesting chapter to cite for the point you express. If God Himself blinded some of His faithful people to the Gospel, then how are they to blame for not recognizing Jesus as their Messiah? Did He blind them so He could condemn them, even though the Lord wants that none should perish?
Or did He blind them so that they couldn't sin against the Gospel, since where no law is, there is no transgression?
Please consider this view of Romans 11, through only a little emphasis, in certain places.
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/spirit_of_slumber.htm#two_olive_trees
(I am in the Isaac Newton camp regarding Christians boasting ourselves against Jews).
http://www.zionismchristian.com/zionism_in_christianity.htm
By the way, on the subject of the Reformers, I want to thank you for pushing me a little deeper regarding Anabaptists. You had said:
I have far more respect for the "annabaptists" that guarded the scriptures and maintained the doctrines of the early church throughout the centuries that preceded the "reformation"
Which was arguing in my favor, because as I mentioned they were historicists, even though pre-millennial. But what I didn't know is that Anabaptists were largely amillennial historicists, with the exception of a later pre-millennial sub-group (of Munster).
"Amillennialism was the dominant view of the Protestant Reformers. The Lutheran Church formally rejected chiliasm in the The Augsburg Confession—"Art. XVII., condemns the Anabaptists (of Munster—historically most Anabaptist groups were amillennial) and others ’who now scatter Jewish opinions that, before the resurrection of the dead, the godly shall occupy the kingdom of the world, the wicked being everywhere suppressed.'"[13]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism#Medieval_and_Reformation_periods
So most were amillennial historicists, as am I. The group you claimed to have the most respect for.
I very much hope you explain further how you seem to be against a temple, but in favor of a millennial reign of Christ on earth.
I can assure you now, that if you go back through the emails I sent you and consider each point while setting aside preconceived notion, that your return to the traditional historicist approach to prophecy, will likely bless you as nothing in your recent memory has.
How do you interpret Dan. 12:1-3?
I'm thrilled you asked. But let's start at the beginning of Daniel's prophetic dream, of which the "time appointed was long", in conjunction with how Hebrew scholars understand an antiquated Hebrew idiom:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm
May the good Lord bless you bro, and lead us both in all truth.
Your brother in Christ Jesus,
Pete
______________________________________
Tuesday, November 25, 2014 1:46 PM
From:
"John Williams"
To:
"pastorX
One more note:
.....and though based on Dan. 9:24-27 .... I do believe a temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem.....
That's what John Darby concluded of what is today this single most contentious element in eschatology. However the book of Daniel was sealed until the "time of the end" and unless we believe that time began during the early 1800s, then Darby would have made his conclusion before the book was unsealed. Yet even his own doctrine concludes that the "time of the end" begins in the middle of his "7-year" tribulation.
I previously showed you that when we begin with our interpretation of the figurative language of an Old Testament prophetic dream, before addressing the literal language of literal passages of the Gospel that are not open to interpretation, the Gospel then becomes a very serious witness against against us.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/abomination_of_desolation.htm
Regarding 2 Thess 2, where are we to look for "that man of sin" to "sitteth"?
http://www.christianeschatology.com/falling_away_apostasy.htm
To quote Ellis Skolfield, "God is truth, so how well a person serves the Lord is not dependent on how artfully he can defend his doctrines, but on his willingness to seek out and follow the truth."
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parked
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On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 3:03 PM, "pastorX wrote:
I am definitely open to studying your viewpoint Pete, but you dodged my question - for starters please tell me how you interpret Dan. 12:1-3
Bro. X
On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 5:42 AM, John Williams wrote:
I am definitely open to studying your viewpoint Pete, but you dodged my question - for starters please tell me how you interpret Dan. 12:1-3
Come on broX. This accusation from the guy that dodged every single question and point I raised about the temple of God, and most everything else about literal scripture, from literal passages of the New Testament, that are not open to interpretation.
I didn't dodge your question, but rather took you to the beginning of that very same dream of Daniel about which you inquired, to include more context as we work our way through his dream.
Did you click on the link to the two "times" problems that span 2500 years, through which Daniel pinned the dates of 1948 and 1967, right to the year? What are the odds against that being an accident?
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm
What you are actually desiring to do, is to jerk a few verses our of the figurative language out of context, and then try to run my reply through the filter of your futurist eschatology and preconceived notions. Futurists usually want to begin in Daniel's 70 weeks (as you did when you expressed a belief in a future temple), because the New Testament is a witness against their eschatology.
I already pointed out that you will have to consider an entire study within the historicist context, and then judge it completely on its own merit, in comparison to Darby's empty future predicting about some future someday. Proof-texting verses from prophetic dreams and visions will not serve either of us. If you are really sincere about studying this viewpoint, for over 30 years Ellis Skolfield has written about Muhammad and Islam in Bible prophecy through this traditional approach. You can consider this study through a brick by brick empirical argument in his book The False Prophet. It is available free online and is fun and fast to read. I believe it will bless you as much as it has everyone else that I know about that has read it.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_false_prophet.htm
"Scripts" are making it nearly impossible to continue with this email and I don't want to loose the work.
Pete
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me
To
pastorX
Today at 6:25 AM
I don't know what I had open, that kept interrupting with "scripts" but I closed all my other browsers, and it seems to be fine. Suffice it to say that the "time of trouble such as never was" and period of greater tribulation than any other, through the historicist context, finds the 20th century to be an excellent fit with over 70 million killed in WW2 alone, including 8 million of the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm#judah
Rather than my words let's include Halley's Bible Handbook on Dan chapter 12:
"A time of trouble, such as never was" (1), is not inapplicable to our own generation: torture, suffering and death, of whole populations, by demon dictators, no more intense perhaps than the atrocities perpetrated by Antiochus, Titus, the Roman Emperors, and the Popes of the Inquisition, but on a scale unparalleled in all previous history."
Now let me ask again. Where do you believe Jesus will live, when He and His people begin their fleshly life on this earth, for 1,000 years?
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Mark 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Brother, those are literal verses, that are not open to interpretation.
So where do you believe Jesus will live when He begins His life in the flesh in His kingdom of this world, that you believe is supposed to come?
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Your church
From: John Williams
Date: Wed, November 26, 2014 7:22 am
To: PastorX
Dear brother X,
I just visited your website and found the description very refreshing regarding the authority of scripture and headship of your church by Jesus Christ (particularly having read "Pagan Christianity" by Frank Viola). So let me ask you, based on the following:
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Did Jesus usher His kingdom in during the first century, or did He prophesy falsely?
Are you about ready to reconsider Darby's 7-year tribulation, and wander back onto the reservation of traditional amillennial historicism of the pre-19th century Christian era church, including those great men of God of the Reformation (and the non-Munster Anabaptists)?
It isn't like we weren't warned:
2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
The 19th century brought us
Mary Baker Eddy - Christian Science
Joseph Smith - LDS Mormon
Charles Taze Russell - Jehovah's Witness
William Miller - Millerites associated into SDA
Ellen White - SDA Seventh Day Adventists
Edward Irving - Irvingites
United and Oneness Pentecostal Church - several individuals 19th & 20th century
John Nelson Darby - dispensationalism futurism 7-year tribulation - Darby from Irving - church via C.I. Scofield
Dr. John Thomas - Christadelphians
Hegel - Fichte - Maurice - Idealism school of eschatology (secularized by Karl Marx)
Madame Blavatsky - Theosophical Society - satanist acquaintance of Westcott and Hort
Westcott and Hort - These two men penned a minority Greek text that is the basis of the majority of modern bible versions.
Pope Pius IX - 1854 dogma of the "immaculate conception"
Certainly not limited to the 19th century.
Constantine - 3rd-4th century - Roman church - For those in the bondage of the Roman church it is essential that husbands and fathers understand the 13th century dogma of auricular confession.
Ribera - 16th century - futurist doctrine creator and seed for Darby's doctrine
Alcazar - 17th century - preterist doctrine - preterism
Jean de Labadie - 17th century - millennial reign
Manuel de Lacunza - 18th century - middleman between Ribera and Darby who Darby credited
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm#cults
Brother, words cannot adequately express, the excitement that I believe you are on the verge of feeling, as I believe you are primed and ready to rejoin the rest of us in the traditional Bible based Christian era church.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm
Ellis Skolfield has spent his last days expanding a projector-ready study, when you are ready to bring this study to your flock. I will devote as much of my time as you need to helping out. Ellis is still alive for questions but is 87 and his health is seriously failing now. I have been in ministry with him for nearly a decade. He has hosted "go to meeting" meetings for churches (which churches become set on fire for the Lord), but I don't know if he is up to the task. The study guide is available for your perusal, and I and a few brethren can field questions you may have, in the forum.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2655.0
Brother, I can flat out guarantee you that your eyes will be opened to the world around you, and the history of the Christian era, in a way that is such a blessing it will set you on fire. You will no longer be bewildered as to why the false prophet Muhammad's followers are slaughtering and beheading Christians throughout the prophet John's whole "world" - just as prophesied. If you are ready to open your eyes it will ignite you and your flock with a fresh new zeal, even though all you will be doing is returning to tradition, but with a view that the great Anabaptist theologian, Thieleman van Braght or Matthew Henry or Isaac Newton would have easily seen, were they alive in the world today during this "time of the end".
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#summary_day_year
(http://www.beholdthebeast.com/2f9a4310.jpg)
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On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 7:45 AM, "pastorX wrote:
I will get back to you on this Pete, probably not for couple days though. This is a subject that neither of us should be unteachable about. I read most of the webpages you linked and see several flaws in the numerological system you have adopted, I think more so than you have been able to point to in the premil/postrib position. Thank you for finally stating your position on the tribulation of Dan. 12.
In the meantime, do you also agree with Newton as to the identity of the "prince that shall come" in Dan. 9:26-27?
Bro. X
Re: Your church
Wednesday, November 26, 2014 8:03 AM
From:
"John Williams"
To:
"pastorX
See what I mean? You jumped from prooftexting one verse from the figurative language of an Old Testament dream, right into the next one. What you don't realize is that you are effectively running and hiding from the New Testament there. That's why you have yet to post a substantive reply to a single one of my emails that show you how you are running afoul of the literal language of New Testament scripture.
(putting all of the following in quotes as it is not germane to the conversation.)
On another note, I am at this moment listening to your sermon on tax exemption (Anderson sermon) and thought you might be interested in the following regarding Lyndon Johnson's overreach:
501c3: Facts about 501c3 tax-exempt status for the church
Churches Need Not Apply
In order to be considered for tax-exempt status by the IRS an organization must fill out and submit IRS Form 1023 and 1024. However, note what the IRS says regarding churches and church ministries, in Publication 557:
Some organizations are not required to file Form 1023. These include:
Churches, interchurch organizations of local units of a church, conventions or associations of churches, or integrated auxiliaries of a church, such as a men’s or women’s organization, religious school, mission society, or youth group. These organizations are exempt automatically if they meet the requirements of section 501(c)(3).
Churches Are “Automatically Tax-Exemptâ€
According to IRS Code § 508(c)(1)(A):
Special rules with respect to section 501(c)(3) organizations.
(a) New organizations must notify secretary that they are applying for recognition of section 501(c)(3) status.
(c) Exceptions.
(1) Mandatory exceptions. Subsections (a) and (b) shall not apply to—
(A) churches, their integrated auxiliaries, and conventions or associations of churches.
This is referred to as the "mandatory exception" rule. Thus, we see from the IRS’ own publications, and the tax code, that it is completely unnecessary for any church to apply for tax-exempt status. In the IRS’ own words a church “is automatically tax-exempt.â€
Churches Are “Automatically Tax-Deductibleâ€
And what about tax-deductibility? Doesn’t a church still need to become a 501c3 so that contributions to it can be taken as a tax deduction? The answer is no! According to IRS Publication 526:
Organizations That Qualify To Receive Deductible Contributions
You can deduct your contributions only if you make them to a qualified organization. To become a qualified organization, most organizations other than churches and governments, as described below, must apply to the IRS.
In the IRS’ own words a church “is automatically tax-deductible.â€
Churches Have a Mandatory Exception To Filing Tax Returns
Not only is it completely unnecessary for any church to seek 501c3 status, to do so becomes a grant of jurisdiction to the IRS by any church that obtains that State favor. In the words of Steve Nestor, IRS Sr. Revenue Officer (ret.):
"I am not the only IRS employee who’s wondered why churches go to the government and seek permission to be exempted from a tax they didn’t owe to begin with, and to seek a tax deductible status that they’ve always had anyway. Many of us have marveled at how church leaders want to be regulated and controlled by an agency of government that most Americans have prayed would just get out of their lives. Churches are in an amazingly unique position, but they don’t seem to know or appreciate the implications of what it would mean to be free of government control."
from the Forward of In Caesar's Grip, by Peter Kershaw
read my comment at the bottom of this page
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=8614128225
I'm well aware of the provisions of the IRC. My position is that they do not and CANNOT apply to a true NT church, whether the IRS thinks they do or not.
Bro. X
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RE: Your church
Wednesday, November 26, 2014 8:46 AM
From:
"pastorX
To:
"John Williams"
I am not dodging anything Pete. I want to know your positions more fully before I respond. I intend to answer all of your questions. What is your position on Dan. 9:26-27...
Bro. X
-
RE: Your church
Wednesday, November 26, 2014 7:45 AM
From:
"pastorX
To:
"John Williams"
I will get back to you on this Pete, probably not for couple days though. This is a subject that neither of us should be unteachable about. I read most of the webpages you linked and see several flaws in the numerological system you have adopted, I think more so than you have been able to point to in the premil/postrib position. Thank you for finally stating your position on the tribulation of Dan. 12.
In the meantime, do you also agree with Newton as to the identity of the "prince that shall come" in Dan. 9:26-27?
Your church isn't Scofield centered?
Wednesday, November 26, 2014 9:45 AM
From:
"John Williams"
To:
"PastorX
I will get back to you on this Pete, probably not for couple days though.
In your own time bro.
This is a subject that neither of us should be unteachable about.
Indeed.
I read most of the webpages you linked and see several flaws in the numerological system you have adopted,....
It is not a "numerology" like some sort of bible code, and isn't about what I have adopted, but a "language of prophecy" that was recognized throughout the first 1800 years of the church. According to one of the Anabaptists that you have deceived yourself into believing you are in the company of:
The great Anabaptist theologian, Thieleman van Braght, wrote the following in Martyrs Mirror, pages 21-24: 'a thousand two hundred and threescore days, which reckoned according to prophetic language means as many years… let it be reckoned as it may, say we, as a very long period of time.'
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#reformers_day_year
..... I think more so than you have been able to point to in the premil/postrib position.
That's ridiculous. First your replies have been virtually devoid of content. Second, Jesus is truth, so do you really think you serve Him by running and hiding from the New Testament because you are stuck in Darby's contradictions? You follow the central element of John Darby's 7-year tribulation pop-futurist eschatology, even though on your church site is stated:
Pastor X views Bible prophecy from a staunchly Classical Premillennial perspective.....
I've shown you that available evidence suggests otherwise. Classical church as well as the reformers were amillennial historicists.
.....(one glorious return of the Lord Jesus not two, at the end of a 7-year tribulation period and not before), rejecting the popular Scofield-based dispensational doctrine....
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/end_time_myth.htm
The "7-year tribulation" IS Scofield, so you apparently don't even realize your claim is false. That you reject the embellishment, of the pre-trib rapture, is irrelevant. You can't say you reject Scofield when you follow the very basis and central tenant of Darby's pop-futurist 7-year tribulation doctrine, that likely would have died with Darby if not for Scofield. There is nothing "classical" about modern futurism and your claim is false. Don't take my word for it, but one of your own on the 7-year tribulation:
Dr. Harry Ironside: .....until brought to the fore through the writings and the preaching and teaching of a distinguished ex-clergyman, Mr. J. N. Darby, in the early part of the last century, it is scarcely to be found in a single book or sermon throughout a period of sixteen hundred years! If any doubt this statement, let them search, as the writer has in measure done,.....He will find "the mystery" conspicuous by its absence.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/futurism_dispensationalism.htm#history_of_futurism
"Thank you for finally stating your position on the tribulation of Dan. 12."
That's certainly not only my position, which is why I quoted from Halley's quite conservative bible handbook.
Please don't continue to deceive brethren by denying that you follow Darby/Scofield on your website, as long as you insist on believing in the central component of his heresy. It is at best being disingenuous, and as you may soon be able to see, an outright lie.
Exactly contrary to the actual "classical" church, that you have somehow deceived yourself into believing you are in company with, that they themselves clearly demonstrate you are not.
You mention a guy named Baldwin jumped from futurism to preterism. This isn't unusual when someone becomes closer to the Gospel than they are Daniel's prophetic dreams. However you don't have to go down the road of recognizing the counter-gospel falsehood of Darby's 7-year tribulation, and then in answer jumping from that frying pan into the fire of 17th century Jesuit Luis Alcazar's counter-reformation heresy of preterism.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/#limitations_futurism_preterism
You actually can come to know the blessing of running with those great men of God that you have only deceived yourself into believing you have been in the company of. This most recent reply of yours demonstrated that you are now beginning to squeeze your eyes shut, and stick your fingers in your ears and hum, under the banner of your doctrine. I'll respond further after you demonstrate a good faith effort at actually responding to my prior replies.
Pete
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RE: Your church isn't Scofield centered?
Wednesday, November 26, 2014 12:25 PM
From:
"pastorX
To:
"John Williams"
Pete, or John, or whatever your name is,
Your prideful and inflammatory remarks are not conducive to discussion. I have no time to waste on scorners. I already told you I would answer all your questions, and have no reason to hide in the OT scriptures. I simply see them as very relevant to the discussion. After you answer these two questions, so I know precisely where you stand, I will respond in detail to your remarks:
1. Who is the "prince that shall come" in Daniel 9:26-27
2. Who is the "man of sin" in 2 Thes. 2:3
Bro. X
me
To
pastorX
Today at 12:58 PM
Pete, or John, or
whatever your name is,
My most common username online is PeteWaldo. I don't know how many death threats you have received in your ministry but it is part and parcel with ministry to Muslims. Not only do Muslims pose a threat, but "Chrislam" Judas' in the apostate interfaith "church" that is given over to unclean spirits and demons may pose a threat as well.
Your prideful and inflammatory remarks are not
conducive to discussion. I have no time to waste on
scorners. I already told you I would answer all your
questions, and have no reason to hide in the OT scriptures. I simply see them as very relevant to the discussion.
Characterize as you will the one thing you didn't do for obvious reasons, is address the truth of the fact that John Darby, C.I. Scofield and you own the 7-year tribulation doctrine together.
After you answer these two questions, so I know
precisely where you stand, I will respond in detail to your remarks:
Let's start here:
2. Who is the "man of sin" in 2
Thes. 2:3
Well where are we to look for "that man of sin" to "sitteth" brother?
___________________________
To
pastorX
Today at 1:55 PM
I already told you I would answer all your questions, and have no reason to hide in the OT scriptures. I simply see them as very relevant to the discussion. After you answer these two questions, so I know precisely where you stand, I will respond in detail to your remarks:
2. Who is the "man of sin" in 2 Thes. 2:3
Perhaps is wasn't fair for me to answer with a question:
"Well where are we to look for "that man of sin" to "sitteth" brother?"
The answer of course is:
".....he as God sitteth in the temple of God....."
Where has the temple of God been ever since Jesus built it in 3 days?
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
In this "time of the end" during the "falling away", it certainly isn't difficult for me to see "that man of sin" manifest in the corporate body of Christ. Outright betrayal of Jesus Christ (just as the son of perdition, Judas, did to Jesus). From the national Episcopal "church" in Washington DC that just allowed Muslims to hold a service to Muhammad's "Allah" in it (which they foolishly didn't even realize that according to Islamic law makes it Islamic property), to some of the evangelical church like Rick Warren of the Saddleback church, to the "A common word between us and you" interfaith numbskulls, to the outright spirit of Kandalini as just one spiritual manifestation of that man of sin in the temple of God. Please spend just 5 minutes with the embeded video at this website link regarding the spirit of kandalini in the church:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/falling_away_apostasy.htm#that_man_of_sin
-
pastorX
To
me
Nov 26 at 6:13 PM
...and #1 please...
Bro. X
So then I take it you agree that "that man of sin" is manifest in spades throughout a large portion of the body of Christ. I would imagine that the reason you didn't share with me where you teach your flock they are to look for that man of sin, is because what you currently teach about the location of the temple of God shames you, in the light of literal New Testament scriptures that are not open to interpretation. There will only ever be one temple of God, ever since Jesus built it in 3 days. God will continue to dwell in the true tabernacle and will never dwell in a temple made with hands, and from where I stand, it would be at least borderline blasphemy for a Christian to suggest He would.
The people of the prince that came as a flood, are the same people who built the blasphemous idol the Dome of the Rock on the temple mount - the symbol of Islam in Bible prophecy as the final foe of God's people - with the founding verses, and mosaic all around the eve, proclaiming that God has no Son. That abomination, along with 1.5 billion Muslims in the world today, are all antichrist. The same people that were responsible for the complete and utter desolation of Jerusalem by the early 19th century, just as prophesied. The followers of THE false prophet Muhammad - his Islamic kingdom "beast". The same murderous antichrist reprobates that are bent on the Islamic conquest of Israel (and the rest of the world) today.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/abomination_of_desolation.htm
For 1400 years commanded to conquer all kingdoms and subjugate all people to DISbelieving the crucifixion of Christ and thus rejecting His shed blood, and denying and blaspheming the Son of God, as articles of their faith in the false prophet Muhammad alone.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm
Meanwhile Darby's futurists stumble around blind in fantasy about some future someday, and continue to embellish his fable by writing New York city into prophecy or proclaiming some future boogeyman will implant people with computer chips, even as the mark of the beast may well be a fulfilled prophecy throughout the prophet John's whole "world". With 90 to 100% of the people marked by the name of THE false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom beast. With the exception of the tiny little strip of land that Jews were restored to, where Jews, Christians, non-Muslim Arabs as well as Muslims, enjoy the freedom liberty and right to self-determination as afforded by the democracy of the Israeli Jewish state.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#the_tragedy
Now perhaps you can enlighten me with some of the empty future-predicting that John Darby/C.I. Scofield taught you, regarding how to stick prophecy of the whole Christian era into a 7-year period during some future someday, that you in turn indoctrinate your unsuspecting flock with. Or might you actually be brave and non-nicolaitan enough to let Jesus lead as your website suggests, and expose them to this entirely separate and yet traditional approach to Bible prophecy, that as we can see may well paint a bulls eye on Muhammad's back as THE false prophet, and let them draw their own conclusions? Obviously, if you think that what you teach is correct, then you should have nothing to fear. It's been made easy to present to a group. All that's left for you to do is present a slideshow, and when you're done, discuss it (25 mb because of lots of images so it takes a little while to download).
http://www.ellisskolfield.net/essays
Isaac Newton: "The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence."
RE: Your church isn't Scofield centered?
Wednesday, November 26, 2014 7:38 PM
From:
"pastorX
To:
"John Williams"
excuse please - Daniel 9:26-27
Bro. X
-
On Thursday, November 27, 2014 10:23 AM, "pastorX wrote:
Thank you for finally coming out of hiding, stating your position and hanging yourself in it. I knew those three scriptures would be all the rope you needed to do so. As with preterists, who also rely on extra-biblical authorities like DeMar, Kik, and Rushdooney, you have obvious difficulty dealing with the scriptures themselves, which is why throughout your diatribe you cited to your website rather than the scriptures. I will respond to your silly ravings in full in a couple days.
Bro. X
To
pastorX
Nov 27 at 11:22 AM
Thank you for finally coming out of hiding, stating your position and hanging yourself in it.
My friend it was you who ran and hid throughout our entire chat.
I knew those three scriptures would be all the rope you needed to do so.
What you really mean is that your reject that Jesus built the temple of God in 3 days because you were indoctrinated into John Darby's temple.
As with preterists, who also rely on extra-biblical authorities like DeMar, Kik, and Rushdooney,......
How absolutely bizarre. Preterists are no more capable of recognizing the "prince" and his people that came as a flood, than John Darby styled futurists like yourself are.
.......you have obvious difficulty dealing with the scriptures themselves.....
The men that you mention, that follow the other Roman Church Jesuit (Alcazar) invented counter-reformation heresy of preterism, are just as blind as those such as yourself that follow Darby via de Lacunza via Jesuit Francisco Ribera.
Those Roman Jesuit counter-reformation heresies are how the enemy necessarily and absolutely precluded both of your pop-groups from even considering, that Muhammad could be THE false prophet through the pop-approaches of perterism and futurism that became popular in the modern church. And as you rightly point out through the Scofield bible in the case of your chosen heresy. This even as your website falsely indicates that you don't ascribe to Scofield, even as you embrace the central and absolutely most important tenant, of Darby's heresy that Scofield popularized. You are lying to your flock and everyone else that should happen to visit your site. Shame on you. Before now you may have been able to pass that falsehood off as ignorance, but you are now without excuse.
Yet as you have been shown through the traditional approach to prophecy of the Reformers - including the Anabaptists - it is easy to see in this "time of the end". Yet I've no doubt that you will continue on in nicolaitanism, even as your cite claims that Jesus is the head of your church.
......which is why throughout your diatribe you cited to your website rather than the scriptures.
Even sinking into bearing false witness against me. My replies were larded with scripture. It is you that failed to reply to them. The reason I cite my websites is that they are also larded with scripture as the case is made.
I guess I had hoped against vain hope, that you weren't so stark raving blind through Darby/Scofield's 7-year tribulation, that you might be able to crack your eyes open even the slightest amount to see.
I will respond to your silly ravings in full in a couple days.
I'll look forward to it. Beginning with your explanation as to how the 7-year tribulation doctrine got into the modern church, and thus how it is not a lie for you to pretend on your website that you are divorced from Scofield.
-
"I strongly oppose Darby's pretrib scheme"
This even as you buy into Darby's 7-year tribulation, and future rebuilt temple, hook, line and sinker.
You should at least get honest with yourself, before deciding whether or not you are going to continue to deceive to your flock, regarding the source of the 7-year tribulation in the modern church.
It should prove to be immensely helpful for you to try a search like: history 7-year tribulation doctrine
http://www.bing.com/search?q=history+7-year+tribulation+doctrine&qs=n&form=QBLH&pq=history+7-year+tribulation+doctrine&sc=0-10&sp=-1&sk=&cvid=85005dc8939a4c91b70e8d3a5dcbfd70
Perhaps the first order of business should be for us to return to my earlier posts, and sort out this temple of Darby's/yours that is to be made with hands of men in the future, since you apparently believe that 2Thess does not reference the only "temple of God" that has existed ever since Jesus built it nearly 2,000 years ago.
In my reply to your first response to me I included the following link larded with scripture (exposing your false claim about my not using scripture), which includes the scriptures to which I alluded in my posts (I would have thought that the key words and key concepts would have jogged a pastor's memory without needing to copy and pasting the verses):
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm
The scriptures tell us in literal language, of a literal passage (rather than men's interpretation of a prophetic vision), that Jesus already built His temple for His people, which is the body of Christ:
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Built without hands:
Mark 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands
The scriptures also inform us that God in fact does not dwell in temples made with hands.
So is it your belief that the temple that Jesus built through His crucifixion, death and resurrection, was somehow so incomplete, unfinished and imperfect, as to require the need for men to build a temple through the flesh with their hands on earth, let alone for Jesus to live in for a thousand years?
Even though a pastor, it would seem you perhaps know not that.....
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
What would the purpose of this future physical temple be, that apparently replaces or supersedes the temple that Jesus has been the chief cornerstone of, throughout the Christian era?
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
The one and only true tabernacle that the Lord pitched:
Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Yet you wrote:
"....and though based on Dan. 9:24-27 and 2 Thes. 2, I do believe a temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem, it will only be a further abominable expression of the Jews' rejection of Christ prior to their restoration at His coming (Rom. 11)."
So is the "abominable expression of the Jews", the place that you believe that Jesus is supposed to then turn around and live in on earth for 1,000 years?
Early on in our chat I left the link to all of these scriptures but you apparently missed it.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Do you find any ambiguity expressed in the literal language of that literal verse?
Please explain through literal scripture, in literal passages, how 2 Thess indicates some future temple of some future someday, rather than the "temple of God" that literal scriptures of the New Testament inform us Jesus built in 3 days, during the first century.
-
On Friday, November 28, 2014 8:33 AM, "pastorX wrote:
Bro. Pete,
I greatly commend your persistence, courage and zeal in your opposition to Islam and its false prophet, in which I will heartily join you. It is obvious that you have put a lot of work into your ministry and I do believe the Lord has led you in do doing. However while Islam is obviously one of the greatest evils of our day I have good cause to disagree with many of your conclusions, and I note your lack of self control in avoiding inflammatory remarks and what comes across as arrogant ignorance that causes me to want to drop the discussion and move on. However I did promise to respond in full, and even before I received your email this a.m. I already began assembling the email trail back from the origin of our discussion forward, to prepare my response as promised. There are some things you need to see, and there is also some of what you have assembled that I may need to incorporate into my last days eschatology also.
Because my ministry time is limited by the fact that our church is very small and I have to work full time with an attorney in legal defense work to provide for my family (my architectural business dried up in the housing market crash of '06-'07), it will take me a few days to put my response together, which will include a response to the comments below.
Bro. X
To
pastorX
Today at 9:19 AM
Thank you brother X and I will look forward to your response. Sorry to hear about your business. It certainly was (and continues to be) a financially devastating time for so many. I do have one question that I would appreciate you replying to, but hopefully not to distract you from reply to the email regarding the temple of God. Early on you mentioned:
In the interest of sharpening iron, and also to hopefully help you see the beast that is now rising in our own day,.......
My question is, what "beast" were you referring to, that you see as "rising in our own day"?
As you know I believe that the "beast" of Revelation 13, is the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom, through exegesis of scripture using the science of hermeneutics.
Some of which you will be familiar with, since you are a historicist regarding Old Testament prophecy, and likely Daniel's successive kingdom "beasts" in particular.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm
-
I strongly oppose Darby's pretrib scheme,
This even as you buy into his 7-year tribulation, and future rebuilt temple, hook, line and sinker.
You should at least get honest with yourself before determining whether or not you are going to continue deceiving to your flock.
Try a search like: history 7-year tribulation doctrine
http://www.bing.com/search?q=history+7-year+tribulation+doctrine&qs=n&form=QBLH&pq=history+7-year+tribulation+doctrine&sc=0-10&sp=-1&sk=&cvid=85005dc8939a4c91b70e8d3a5dcbfd70
Jesus built His temple for His people without hands:
Mark 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands
So is the temple that Jesus built through His crucifixion, death and resurrection, somehow so incomplete, unfinished and imperfect, as to require men to build a temple with their hands in the flesh on earth, for Jesus to move into for a thousand years? Even though a pastor, you apparently know not that.....
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
What is the purpose of this future physical temple, that supercedes the temple that Jesus is currently the chief cornerstone of?
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Is it for the sacrifice of animals?
Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
and though based on Dan. 9:24-27 and 2 Thes. 2, I do believe a temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem, it will only be a further abominable expression of the Jews' rejection of Christ prior to their restoration at His coming (Rom. 11).
1. So is the "abominable expression of the Jews' rejection of Christ", the place that you believe that Jesus is supposed to then turn around and live in for 1,000 years?
Early on in our chat I mentioned the scripture, and left the link to it, but you apparently missed it.
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm
Do you find any ambiguity expressed in the literal language of that literal verse?
2. How does 2 Thess indicate some future temple of some future someday, rather than the temple of God that Jesus built in 3 days, during the first century?
In the interest of sharpening iron, and also to hopefully help you see the beast that is now rising in our own day,.......
What beast is that?
-
On Friday, November 28, 2014 9:59 AM, "pastorX wrote:
After reading most of the webpages you linked I still believe the "beast" is the American /Revived Roman Empire, whose reins are currently held by the woman of Rev. 17, the Mother of Harlots, and whose current figurehead is a Muslim that calls himself a Christian, and who created and funded ISIS, the Islamic State that is beheading Christians in Syria and surrounding regions. The "man of sin" in 2 Thes. 2 (and Dan. 9:26-27) is a man Pete, who for 3-1/2 years will have civil authority over every kindred, tribe & tongue on earth. You are dwelling in the midst of last days Babylon...
I have to credit you with perhaps the most stand-alone unique exegesis. But there is a reason for that.
After reading most of the webpages you linked I still believe the "beast" is the American /Revived Roman Empire.....
So then Bible prophecy is about the United States, rather than the Holy Land and God's people, as Christian Bible scholars have understood for nearly 2,000 years?
Strong's: world
New Testament Greek Definition:
3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay}
feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by
implication of 1093); TDNT - 5:157,674; n f
AV - world 14, earth 1; 15
1) the inhabited earth
1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in
distinction from the lands of the barbarians
1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
That when John reported what was, is, and was to come in his day, he was referring to the United States?
The web pages you reference walked you through to a hermeneutically supported and sound conclusion.
Yet your response seems to simply assign Bible prophecy to modern figures willy nilly. Even writing Barak Obama into prophecy. Aren't you doing the same as you earlier accused the Reformers of doing?
.....whose reins are currently held by the woman of Rev. 17, the Mother of Harlots, and whose current figurehead is a Muslim that calls himself a Christian,.....
I am sure we are in considerable agreement regarding what Barak is made of, and what he has done and continues to do to this country, but there is good reason you did support your presumptions through scripture or hermeneutics.
This even as when we can both see the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom "beast", is doing exactly as prophesied, in John's whole "world":
.....and who created and funded ISIS, the Islamic State that is beheading Christians in Syria and surrounding regions.
So it is Barak Obama that "created" the Islamic state, and not Muhammad? Really? The Islamic State is conquering and subjugating non-Muslims just as Muhammad did, commanded his followers to do, and as they have done for 1400 years.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm
Accelerated in this "time of the end" now that the mortal wound that the Islamic beast had suffered, has been healed by western wealth transfer in oil purchase and arms shipment.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/leopard_bear_lion_beast.htm#two_horned_beast
My friend, does it really make more sense to you, to believe that they are doing what they've done for 1400 years, at Barak Obama's behest, rather than the false prophet Muhammad's behest?
The "man of sin" in 2 Thes. 2 (and Dan. 9:26-27) is a man Pete, who for 3-1/2 years will have civil authority over every kindred, tribe & tongue on earth.
I realize that's what Darby taught, but as you work through my email on the "temple of God", perhaps you will become open to a more scripture based perspective.
You are dwelling in the midst of last days Babylon...
A person doesn't need to be a John Darby styled 7-year tribulationist to believe that. Please consider the mark of the beast through the more scholarly approach of an ethnographic hermeneutic, that Strong's described:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#the_tragedy
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http://www.reformedspokane.org/Doctrine_pages/The%20second%20coming%20of%20Christ/Term_%22Amillennial%22.html
http://americanvision.org/9330/amillennial-king-twiddling-thumbs/
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In the interest of sharpening iron, and also to hopefully help you see the beast that is now rising in our own day,.......
What beast is that?
-
pastorX
To
me
Today at 6:53 AM
...you continue to reveal your own ignorance Pete. As stated I will have a full response in a few days
Bro. X
-
On Saturday, November 29, 2014 6:53 AM, "pastorX wrote:
...you continue to reveal your own ignorance Pete. As stated I will have a full response in a few days
Bro. X
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Response
From: John Williams
Date: Sat, November 29, 2014 7:21 am
To: "pastorX
In any given year, what percentage of Sundays would you guess, are you the one that delivers a sermon to your flock?
On Saturday, November 29, 2014 8:05 AM, "pastorX wrote:
why do you ask
Bro. X
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Response
From: John Williams
Date: Sat, November 29, 2014 11:42 am
To: "pastorX
I was wondering how your church functions. Why didn't you simply reply?
-
pastorX
To
me
Today at 5:10 AM
Pete,
I have another question as to your position. I see the (1st) beast of Rev. 13 being the same beast seen in Rev. 17 and the 4th beast of Dan. 7. In your view, what are the 10 horns on that beast (see Dan. 7:24-25 esp.)?
Bro. X
To
pastorX
Today at 7:17 AM
Pete,
I have another question as to your position. I see the (1st) beast of Rev. 13 being the same beast seen in Rev. 17 and the 4th beast of Dan. 7.
Rather than repetition, I view the beast of Revelation 13 describing more the physical, territorial, and historical condition of the Middle East throughout the period from Egypt unto today. While the Scarlet Beast as describing the spiritual condition of mankind throughout this period including false religions and false "churches".
The beast of Rev 13 is described by using the first 3 of Daniel's beasts. Satan gave this kindgom "beast" his seat, power and authority. That much I think we can agree on, while the rest is more speculative. The 10 horns of Daniel's and perhaps this beast is the roughly 10 countries that the Roman Empire eventually divided into. However a pretty good case can be made that the 10 horns of this beast are the 10 Islamic caliphates. While the 10 horns on the scarlet beast I believe has the Club of Rome and a shadow global government as its fulfillment.
I agree with Bible scholars that Bible prophecy is primarily about God's people and the Holy Land and surrounding area - an ethnographic view. That John's vision was about the things that were, are and shall be - to John, through John's eyes regarding where John lived geographically, and historically. The irrefutable historical matter of fact is that the succession of kingdoms in the Middle East described by that beast were Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, the Roman Empire, and the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic empire. (While the two horned beast ruled briefly, it was always "before" or in the presence of the Islamic beast.)
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/leopard_bear_lion_beast.htm#two_horned_beast
The condition of John's "world" today:
(http://www.beholdthebeast.com/2efa3a90.png)
Since virtually everyone in John's "world" carries the name of the beast - Islam - the mark of the beast could be a fulfilled prophecy.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#the_tragedy
So regarding the lion, bear and leopard composite "beast", the seats of those kingdoms are today occupied by Babylon/Iraq - Medo-Persia/Iran - ancient Greece/Syria-Lebanon. While these countries may have a few differences in doctrine that even incite them to murder each other, they are all perfectly united through the false prophet Muhammad's "sign" that unites them, the Quran and Hadith, and the spirit of antichrist since each and every one is necessarily an antichrist as an article of their faith in Muhammad alone. It isn't the arbitrary of the boundaries that men set up that is important to God, but the spiritual condition of their hearts. At this link is a detail of the irrefutable historical succession of kingdoms of the prophet John's "world".
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/johns_eight_beasts.htm#maps_8_beasts
In your view, what are the 10 horns on that beast (see Dan. 7:24-25 esp.)?
Daniel's ten horns may be the 10 countries that the Roman Empire roughly divided into.
Ten horns of the LBL beast, most likely the Islamic caliphates.
Ten horns of the scarlet beast, the Club of Rome would seem a good fit.
-
me
Today at 9:13 AM
To
pastorX
Take a bit broader view for a moment.
You are contending that the U.S. - in which something like 70% or 80% of the citizens (whether born again or not) nonetheless believe that Christ was crucified died and was resurrected from the dead and saves all from sin who have faith in His shed blood - as the "beast" of Revelation 13.
I contend that it is the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom that is the beast of Revelation 13, in which each and every one of his followers must specifically DISbelieve that Christ was crucified and thus REJECT His shed blood, and DENY the Son of God as articles of their faith in the false prophet Muhammad alone. Who Muhammad commanded to conquer all of mankind and ultimately subjugate them to doing the same. Just as was done throughout John's "world".
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muhammad_islam_in_bible_prophecy.htm
One third of mankind in the world today believe that Christ was crucified, died and was resurrected from the dead, as revealed through the prophets and witnesses of the 1600 year record of revelation of the one true God to mankind, whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
A record of revelation that commands us to not only love our neighbor as ourselves, but even to love our enemies.
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
A directly opposing one quarter of mankind in the counter-Gospel anti-religion of Islam are required to disbelieve the whole subject of the Gospel, and thus reject the sin-atoning shed blood of the Messiah, and deny the Son of God - as articles of their faith in Muhammad alone.
Quran Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Quran Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
Through Muhammad's heavily abrogated stand-alone 23 year 7th century record his followers are commanded to "fight and slay" non-Muslims and to subjugate all of humanity to Muhammad's followers:
Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle.....
It would of course be pure blasphemy for a Jew or Christian to "testify" to that, since if Muhammad was a true prophet, then the prophets and witnesses as revealed in the 1600 year record of revelation of YHWH to mankind would be false. In particular Jesus Christ, who prophesied His own crucifixion, death and resurrection.
As if that weren't stunning enough, followers of Muhammad are taught that they would commit the single most "heinous" and ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN ("shirk") in Muhammad's anti-religion, if a Muslim were to confess that Jesus is the Son of God, or even to pray in Jesus' name. The unforgivable "sin" of praying in Jesus' name, as opposed to child rape or cold-blooded mass murder for example, which may be forgiven. Whose deity even curses Jews and Christians, while he commands Muhammad's followers to fight and subdue all non-Muslims into submission, including specifically YHWH's people:
Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
-
pastorX
Today at 11:10 AM
To
me
Thanks Pete, but where have you been? The American / Revived Roman Empire stretches far beyond America's borders. It is referred to by many as the "New World Order," and it does use Islam as one of its useful enemies. Its two major competitors for global domination are Russia and China (Dan. 11:40-44). And as depicted in Rev. 18 it is headed for destruction. Much more to follow later this week, but I suggest you start reading the pdf I sent you by Tupper Saucy and start looking into the global efforts of the Vatican and the Jesuit Order...
Bro. X
me
Today at 1:20 PM
To
pastorX
Where I've been is with Bible scholars in understanding Bible prophecy isn't about Peoria Illinois, New York City, or Moscow but about the Holy Land and God's people. While you are out peddling a with scripturally unsupportable and hermeneutically untenable future-predicting, which through a position of authority you usurped from Jesus Christ, you indoctrinate those in your "church" that are gullible enough to blindly (and lazily) trust you. Your preaching at your congregation Sunday after Sunday, is the opposite of the first century church function, and the spirit of the Bereans. I highly recommend you read Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola to understand your role as overseer rather than lord over God's heritage.
I agreed that the Club of Rome to which you allude with the "New World Order" comment is a pretty good fit for the shadow government (CFR etc.) of the ten horns of the scarlet beast.
The question is, where have you been? The Roman Church has been dead in Europe for most of a century (outside of Rome). The Pope is kissing the Quran, while thousands of Catholic churches have been/will be converted into mosques during this "falling away".
http://www.christianeschatology.com/falling_away_apostasy.htm
"Muslims in Europe are increasingly converting empty Christian churches into mosques.
The proliferation of mosques housed in former churches reflects the rise of Islam as the fastest growing religion in post-Christian Europe."
"As Islam replaces Christianity as the dominant religion in Europe, more and more churches are set to become mosques, which increasingly serve not only as religious institutions but also function as the foundational political building blocks for the establishment of separate, parallel Muslim communities in Europe that are based on Islamic Sharia law."
There's your "revived Roman Empire" - being consumed by the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom "beast"
You've been so twisted by your invention that you view the 1/4 of mankind that has been commanded by their prophet for the last 1400 year to conquer or kill you, is just a minor sideshow.
The one thing I can pretty much guarantee, is that you would never consider presenting a scripturally, hermeneutically and mathematically supported exegesis regarding fulfilled prophecy, (that is contrary to the futurist fantasy you feed your congregation) for their perusal, as you know as well as I you can't risk their even considering the traditional approach of historicism. The term for what you are doing is nicolaitanism, or victory over the laity - which is something that God Himself expresses a personal hatred of. The direct opposite of Berean spirited.
-
From: "pastorX
To: John Williams
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2014 1:55 PM
Subject: RE: Response
The reason the Pope is kissing the Quran is because he is the false prophet of Rev. 13. I think our dialogue ends here Pete. I've had more than enough of your commentary
Bro. X
me
Today at 6:12 AM
To
pastorX
I do hope that doesn't mean you won't avail yourself of the very well researched book "Pagan Christianity" by Frank Viola. It would actually relieve you of a lot of the burden and/or pressure you presently carry for your flock, once you put Jesus Christ back in charge.
And I was so looking forward to seeing how you spin Barak Obama as the head of the Islamic State, rather than the self-proclaimed Caliph and Islamic scholar Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.
I'll pray for you and your flock bro.
Pete
_____________________________
me
Today at 7:04 AM
To
pastorX
That pope is dead and gone, my friend. Perhaps next I suppose you will say "well gee, I meant the papacy" or "oh I meant just some of the popes", but you need to check Strong's definitions since it is a reference to single specific false prophet and not some group of men.
But let's consider your finger pointing. The pope and his church, believe that Christ was crucified, died and was resurrected from the dead, and saves all from sin who have faith in His shed blood. They believe that Jesus is the Son of God. That church has even churned out no shortage of everyday saints like mother Theresa as faithful witnesses for Christ.
Whereas for 1400 years the false prophet Muhammad has filled his - today 1.5 billion followers or 1/4 of mankind - with complete resolve to specifically DISbelieve that Christ was crucified, and thus REJECT His shed blood, and DENY and blaspheme the Son of God, all as articles of their faith in the false prophet Muhammad alone. His followers have been commanded for 1400 year to conquer and subjugate the rest of mankind to doing the same. They nearly succeeded during the Islamic First Jihad.
Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle.....
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm
So how do you suppose Jesus will judge a teacher that usurped His authority as head, who teaches that a dead pope is "the false prophet", while Muhammad's followers are out there persecuting and beheading our brethren around the world, with 3 million innocents killed or displaced in the Sudan alone and ongoing slaughter in Nigera, Iraq, Syria and many other places. Selling Christian girls into sexual slavery just as Muhammad did. How will he judge a teacher that instead accuses Christians, through a futurist fantasy of future-predicting - while insisting on self-imposed blindness and refusing to even consider, much less encourage his flock to consider, the false prophet Muhammad as THE false prophet in light of his 1400 year reign of terror against, and subjugation of, non-Muslims? What do you suppose Jesus will say to you?
-
From: "pastorX
To: John Williams <christian2muslims@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, December 1, 2014 9:09 AM
Subject: RE: Response
Pete, you are either an ignorant fool or a Jesuit liar, or both. Sister Theresa? Really? Mormons and JW's believe in the death, burial, resurrection and sonship of Christ too but they are just as hell-bound as the Catholics. Apparently I'm a much better historicist than you are. Do you think the reformers (those "great men" you referred to earlier) were blind to the evils of Islam when they held that the Pope was the antichrist? Do you understand how many millions of TRUE saints of God the Catholic church has butchered and murdered over the centuries? Do you understand anything about the abominable idolatry of the Roman Catholic eucharist, sacerdotalism and Babylonian worship of the virgin (Ashtoreth, "queen of heaven")? You seriously believe that the Catholic church teaches salvation by faith? What ignorant folly! Do you understand anything about the Vatican's vast influence in American politics and Masonic secret societies and its control of the int'l banking system? Obama is every bit as much a puppet on a string as you are an ignorant scorner, on whom I have no time to waste. I had so much to say to you in response to your many fallacies, false presumptions and false accusations of me and our church but you have judged yourself unworthy of further education. For all I care, you may continue in your conceit (Prov. 16:5).
Get lost Pete,
Bro. X
me
December 1, 2014 at 11:00 AM
To
pastorX
My conceit, when your email suggests you believe that a person is saved or lost by the doctrine they have been exposed to, rather than the condition of their heart?
"Mormons and JW's believe in the death, burial, resurrection and sonship of Christ too but they are just as hell-bound as the Catholics."
My conceit, as you stand in Yeshua's place, proclaiming judgment against even whole groups of persons?
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Sure, since you're the first guy to "get it" over the last 2,000 years, so that naturally puts you in the position of authority, and the judgment seat. Is it so hard for you to see how your flock is manipulated into submission to your presumption of authority and proclaimed judgment? Arnold Murray uses the same tactic of proclaiming God's judgment against persons outside of his Serpent Seed cult. Absence of a fear of God is not a good thing.
Your unrighteous judgment, of what you boldly proclaim is my ignorance to things that my websites clearly demonstrate I am not, should be expected. The truth of the scriptures do have a way of animating guys when their doctrine is exposed or "authority" threatened.
Banking, governments, deeds of men, the things of this world; are you unaware that the kingdoms of this world have been Satan's legal possession ever since Adam's fall? That may be hard for you to see because you nullify New Testament scripture and tacitly refuse the kingdom of Jesus Christ that He ushered in during the first century, for some future kingdom and carnal temple of the flesh made by the hands of men that you believe isn't to come until some future someday.
Even the term ecclesia means an assembly of the called out. Called out of the kingdoms of this world, and into the kingdom of Jesus Christ. So I'll remain humbly honored to be my brother John's companion in the tribulation and in the kingdom of Jesus Christ, and in the one true tabernacle that my Lord and Savior built without hands, nearly 2,000 years ago.
-
me
December 1, 2014 at 11:59 AM
To
PastorX
PastorX: "First, I would by no means call historicism uniform. It has led to a wide variety of interpretations, with adherents having a tendency to interpret the text based on events of their day."
PastorX: "I still believe the "beast" is the American /Revived Roman Empire, whose reins are currently held by the woman of Rev. 17, the Mother of Harlots, and whose current figurehead is a Muslim that calls himself a Christian, and who created and funded ISIS, the Islamic State that is beheading Christians in Syria and surrounding regions."
Don't even you find your own words amusingly hypocritical? However it would seem that unlike you, the one thing that guys like Matthew Henry and Isaac Newton knew, is that they didn't know.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#reformers_time_of_end