Islam, Muslim / Christian Forum - Welcome All

All sects aside.

 Yeshua (Jesus) was foretold in the beginning in the bible and is eluded to many times. The Muslim argument that Jesus divinity was made up by Nicaea or was corruption of the bible is false.

oh!

I just saw this, this is very good to hear. Ive been meaning to buy the book on Amazon just in case it goes down again.

There really wasnt a Christian Reformation, there was no need. The issue is that people do not follow the book, if you followed the book there would be no need for a reformation "reformation".  No to mention many of the "church fathers" were highly anti semetic. Just how politics and corruption was rampart in the Israel monarchy,  2nd Temple Judaism, Early Europe and today. That issue hasnt been rectified.

Media uses "Christian Reformation" as a way to state that Christianity was "humanized" or "less barbaric". Eluding that the "Old and New Testament" are two different books, when in reality they arent. Majority of modern day church dogma comes from Constantine and Nicea, both had no legal authority to change anything inside the church.

For you to have a Islamic reformation, you have to leave Islam.

I find it suspect that a person, who releases his research, refuses to answer questions about his book. Using the excuse that "they haven't read the book" to side-step any questions make me question the academic integrity of the work. You should want your research to be peer reviewed. It also confuses new students who want to learn about Islam and the Jahiliyyah period.

I have heard of a man named Jay Smith (sic?) who uses Dan Gibsons book as a point of reference as well.


What are you views on David Woods and Jay Smiths research on the matter. I just dont want conflicting or unproven information .

The website for Dr. Rafat Amari's  research has been down for weeks?

I can only find one book on amazon.com but the other books on his site I cannot find. Whats has happened to the site? will it return?

http://religionresearchinstitute.org/:

Unknown Virtual Host

I am also very interested in this area as well,I have heard arguments from various sides as well. I have found a site regarding the tribes of Ishmael.

This list is given to us in Genesis 25 and is later repeated in I Chronicles 1:29-33. "And these are their generations: the first-born of Ishmael, Nebaioth, then Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, Mishma, and Dumah, Massa, Hadad, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. These are the sons of Ishmael."

http://nabataea.net/12tribes.html

New Archaeology points to Arabic is of Nabaten origin. Is there any information regarding all of the tribes being extinct?
I remember also that Esau married an Ishmaelite as well (one of his wifes).
However since islam has mix and mingled people was this taken into account as well??

Thank you brother!

What do muslims believe in regards to the levites and the temple?
What is the Injil? IS that Jesus in the Koran (his name)? or the gospel according to the muslims?

I am studying the link you gave me earlier. I will post the questions I have for you, I just hope I dont overwhelm you!

Various Rabbinic veiws of who the Moshiach (Messiah) is form various ages and BEFORE Modern day christianity. Clearly these point to Yeshua:

Rabbi Simeon Ben Jochai (2.Century), Zohar,, part II, page 212a and III, page 218a, Amsterdam Ed.):
"There is in the garden of Eden a palace called : 'The palace of the sons of sickness, <, this palace the Messiah enters, and summons every sickness, every pain, and every chastisement of Israel: they all come and rest upon Him. And were it not that He had thus lightened them off Israel, and taken them upon Himself, there had been no man able to bear Israels chastisement for the transgression of the law; this is that which is written, 'Surely our sicknesses he has carried' Isa.53,4).- As they tell Him (the Messiah) of the misery of Israel in their captivity, and of those wicked ones among them who are not attentive to know their Lord, He lifts up His voice and weeps for their wickedness; and so it is written,'He was wounded for our transgressions' (Isa.53,5). Midrash (on Ruth 2,14): "He is speaking of the King Messiah - 'Come hither', i.e.">Draw near to the throne<; 'eat of the bread', i.e.>, The bread of the kingdom.' This refers to the chastisements<, as it is said, 'But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities' (Isa.53,5). Rabbi Elijah de Vidas (16.Century) :
"The meaning of 'He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities' is, that since the Messiah bears our iniquities which produce the ef fect of His being bruised, it follows that whoever will not admit that Messiah thus suffers for our iniquities must endure and suffer for them himself."


Siphre:
"Rabbi Jose the Galilean said, 'Come and learn the merits of the King Messiah and the reward of the Just - from the first man who received but one commandment, a prohibition, and transgressed it. Consider how many deaths were inflicted upon himself, upon his own generation, and upon those who followed them, till the end of all generations. Which attribute is greater, the attribute of goodness, or the attribute of vengeance?'- He answered, 'The attribute of goodness is greater, and the attribute of vengeance is the less.' - 'How much more then, will the King Messiah, who endures affliction and pains for the transgressions (as it is written, 'He was wounded,'etc.), justify all generations. This is the meaning of the word, 'And the LORD made the iniquity of us all to meet upon Him' (Isa.53:6)."


Maimonides (1135-12O4) wrote to Rabbi Jacob Alfajumi:
"Likewise said Isaiah that He (Messiah) would appear without acknowledging a father or mother: 'He grew up before him as a tender plant and as a root out of a dry ground' etc. (Isa.53:2)."

Rabbi Moses, 'The Preacher'(11. Century) wrote in his commentary on Genesis (page 660):
"From the beginning God has made a covenant with the Messiah and told Him,'My righteous Messiah, those who are entrusted to you, their sins will bring you into a heavy yoke'..And He answered, 'I gladly accept all these agonies in order that not one of Israel should be lost.' Immediately, the Messiah accepted all agonies with love, as it is written: 'He was oppressed and he was afflicted'."

Pesiqta (on Isa. 61:10):
"Great oppressions were laid upon You, as it says: 'By oppression and judgement he was taken away; but who considered in his time, that he was cut off out of the land of the living, that he was stricken because of the sins of our children' (Isa.53:, as it says:'But the LORD has laid on him the guild of us all'(Isa.53:6)."


Rabbi Eleazer Kalir (9.Century) wrote the following Musaf Prayer:
"Our righteous Messiah has departed from us. Horror has seized us and we have no one to justify us. He has borne our transgressions and the yoke of our iniquities, and is wounded because of our transgressions. He bore our sins upon His shoulders that we may find pardon for our iniquity. We shall be healed by His wounds, at the time when the Eternal will recreate Him a new creature. Oh bring Him up from the circle of the earth, raise Him up from Seir, that we may hear Him the second time."

Were Jesus's Miracle's Unique?

If Jesus is believed to be GOD because he could do miracles, he could heal leprosy, he could cause blind men to see, or raise the dead, then what about the others who performed the same miracles?

Elisha and Elijah fed a hundred people with twenty barley loaves and a few ears of corn (2 Kings 4:44).

Elisha told Naaman, who was a leper, to wash in the river Jordan (2 Kings 5:14) and he was healed. Elisha caused a blind man to see in (2 Kings 6:17,20).

Elijah and Elisha raised the dead in (1 Kings 17:22, and 2 Kings 4:34). Even Elisha's dead bones restored a dead body in (2 Kings 13:21).

Indeed Jesus had prophesied that people will worship him uselessly and will believe in doctrines not made by GOD but by men "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Matthew 15:9)"

In Matthew 15:9 above, we see Jesus warning that Trinity (the bogus lie) will dominate, and people will take Jesus as GOD and worship him, which is a total sin according to what Jesus said !!

Allah Almighty (GOD) in the Noble Quran (The Muslims' Holy Scripture) states in Verse 5:72 "They do blaspheme who say: 'God is Christ the son of Mary.' But said Christ: 'O Children of Isreal ! worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' "

Also in Noble Verse 5:73 "They do blaspheme who say God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them."

And also in Noble Verse 4:171 "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, ..."


Actually, even in Judaism this is incorrect. Since Judaism and modern day christianity believe in the Moshiach ben Yosef (suffering servent) and the Moshiach ben David (Messianic King). However, this is ONE PERSON and the latter hasnt happened yet. However, in Islam the anti Christ the savior...but thats another time.

So laying on hands, casting out deamons, healing the sick  although are part of what the moshiach can do those arent the finite signs. Paul even says that these things  ARE MILK (BABY FOOD) FOR ALL OF ISRAEL AND THEY SHOULD BE ON BIGGER AND HIGHER THINGS. So using Elijah and Elisha are moot.  Also Levites could clearly heal leprosy though the Ruach Ha Kodesh (Tazria: Leviticus 12:1 - 13:59) So even viewing rabbinic studes such as the talmus, Zohar., second temple Judaism:

1. He will be able to restore life after 3 days. which is a true sign of the Moshiach per the Talmud itself. Yeshua CLEARLY does this, if he doesnt do this acspet his not the Moshiach. So the Koran aspect of the crucifixion is heresy. Remember the Torah is the main staple of who Yeshua is, the NEw Tetament only affirms.

2. Another glaring issue Muslims seem to forget is that Yeshua is foretold to be a prophet AND a priest. Meaning he had to have LEVITE blood. The people who mentioned beforehand werent Levites.

3. Youre blatnalty ignoring the second aspects of what the MOshiach is as well, which people in the NEw Testmanet adhered to as well.

Let go back to Torah again:

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15).
Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)

The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

Yeshua were clearly doing these things because bringing massive amounts of Gentiles to the fold was unheard of. How many were saved in the book of Acts? 3000?

The "trinity" is not a new concept. unfortunately since Constantine removed most of the hebraics and the Sanhedrin the actual translation is goofed up. its actually 3 ATTRIBUTES in one person. G-d has many attributes which is why he goes by various names, El Shaddai, etc. The holy spirit or Ruach Ha Kodesh is found through out "Torah and verbatim on what was breathed into Adam, what Noah used to build the ark,  and Betzelel and Moses used to help build the Temple so that the Ruach could dwell within Israel.

Also Elijah nor Elisha goes to the valley of Dry bones to rectify the the sin of the original generation (whichwill be the his army later on per Exodus), they dont go into the bosom of Abraham and release the old testament saints. Interesting enough, Isaiah, who you quoted, FORETELLS of Yeshuas coming several times.


Another aspect unknown to Muslims that while on the Cross (or tree actually). Yeshua actually says Psalms 22:

Psalm 22[a]

For the director of music. To the tune of “The Doe of the Morning.” A psalm of David.

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
    Why are you so far from saving me,
    so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
    by night, but I find no rest.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
    you are the one Israel praises.[c]
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
    they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
    in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

Psalms or Tehillim was also a stand alone book (in addition tothe torah) solely used by Levites while performing all the Korbans, ministering and healing withing the temple. Which Yeshua would know by heart because he himself is a Levite (per Mary).  Also this psalm in known as the Psalm of victory. Victory over what? the True death and the Victory of the Messianic age which was foretold in the through out the Torah. Yeshua is both the Passover Korban and the Yom Kippur Sacrifice. The book of Hebrews also states that Yeshua is the Yom Kippur Sacrifice as well. I see  affirming of every aspect of Torah (since the NT wasnt around) and absolutely zero of Islam, Kaba, or Mohammed.

Oddly enough, Psalms 22 is written by David........Irony.

                                     


If Jesus was GOD:

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God? This tells us that we and Jesus have a common GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 19:16 Jesus said "Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of crucifixion? Also see: Jesus's crucifixion in Islam

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 18:38 he didn't reply when he was asked about the truth?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Isiah 11:2-3 GOD had put the spirit of fearing GOD in Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:31 Jesus told his followers that if he (Jesus) bears witness of himself, then his record is not true?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can't do a single thing of his own initiative?



If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:36-38 Jesus said that GOD had assigned him (Jesus) work and GOD is a witness on Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?

If Jesus was GOD, then why did he pray to his GOD in Luke 5:16?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD?

The "God" Title:

How come Christians take the "God" (theos in Greek) title literally with Jesus in Isiah 9:6 and they don't take it literally for the rest of the prophets and people who were called Gods ?

The Prophets who were called "God" in the Bible are as follows:

Prophet Moses in Exodus 7:1

The Devil in Corinthians 4:4 (the word for God in this verse is theos in Greek, the same used for Jesus that was translated as "God")

Multiple Prophets in Psalms 82:6

King David in Psalm 45:3

Note: The only unique title given to GOD in the Bible that was not given to others at all are Jehova, GOD, and GOD LORD. "God", "Most Mighty" and "Almighty One" are titles that were given to Jesus, other Prophets and to Satan himself in the Bible.

Very important note: Did you know that in the languages of Arabic and Hebrew the father of the house can be called the God of the house? Jesus was the God (father or leader) of his people and their father according to Isiah 9:6. Jesus being the leader and the king, it is normal for him to be called the father of his people (Father in Isiah 9:6), and because he is their father he automatically becomes their God. My father is my God in Arabic and Hebrew.

Were Jesus's Miracle's Unique?

If Jesus is believed to be GOD because he could do miracles, he could heal leprosy, he could cause blind men to see, or raise the dead, then what about the others who performed the same miracles?

Elisha and Elijah fed a hundred people with twenty barley loaves and a few ears of corn (2 Kings 4:44).

Elisha told Naaman, who was a leper, to wash in the river Jordan (2 Kings 5:14) and he was healed. Elisha caused a blind man to see in (2 Kings 6:17,20).

Elijah and Elisha raised the dead in (1 Kings 17:22, and 2 Kings 4:34). Even Elisha's dead bones restored a dead body in (2 Kings 13:21).

Indeed Jesus had prophesied that people will worship him uselessly and will believe in doctrines not made by GOD but by men "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Matthew 15:9)"

In Matthew 15:9 above, we see Jesus warning that Trinity (the bogus lie) will dominate, and people will take Jesus as GOD and worship him, which is a total sin according to what Jesus said !!

Allah Almighty (GOD) in the Noble Quran (The Muslims' Holy Scripture) states in Verse 5:72 "They do blaspheme who say: 'God is Christ the son of Mary.' But said Christ: 'O Children of Isreal ! worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' "

Also in Noble Verse 5:73 "They do blaspheme who say God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them."

And also in Noble Verse 4:171 "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, ..."

This might be very old but hopefully someone is still viewing these forums. Punisher, all these questions can be answered. Since you basivally posted a book it will take some time to answer them.



If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.

Mark 12:29 is actually a daily prayer that is said twice in Judaism. It is known as the Shema.

The Shema is one of only two prayers that are specifically commanded in Torah (the other is Birkat Ha-Mazon -- grace after meals). It is the oldest fixed daily prayer in Judaism, recited morning and night since ancient times. It consists of three biblical passages, two of which specifically say to speak of these things "when you lie down and when you rise up." This commandment is fulfilled by including the Shema in the liturgy for Ma'ariv (evening services) and Shacharit (morning services). Traditional prayerbooks also include a Bedtime Shema, a series of passages including the Shema to be read at home before going to bed at night.

Part 1: Deuteronomy 6:4-9 Part 2: Deuteronomy 11:13-21 Part 3: Numbers 15:37-41

The first part of the Shema begins with one of the best-known, most fundamental expressions of Jewish belief, and the one from which this prayer gets its name: Shema Yisra'el... (Hear, Israel). This expression is so fundamental that the most liberal Reform synagogue I know has these words carved on the outside of the building in foot-high letters (albeit in English). The second line of this part (Barukh sheim k'vod...) is actually not part of this passage from the Torah. It doesn't even appear anywhere in the Bible. It's a congregational response from the days of the Temple: whenever the High Priest would say the Divine Name, the people would respond with this line. Today, it is not said aloud except during Yom Kippur services.

Please remember that the New Testament wasnt written and codified well after that death and ascension of Yeshua (Jesus). In orther words everyone is adhering to Torah and not creating a new religion of sorts.

 Mark 12:29 is just confirming the Torah. Also that all prayer times (Sacharit, Mincha and Maariv) are communal prayers using the word "WE" as in Israel. All of this is in the Siddur as well.  So Hear O Yisrael the lord is our G-d the lord is One. Is just a prayer confirming who he is, the commandments and to teach your children these rules as well. The word in hebrew is Echad. Oneness or unity. This is also affirmed with people wearing Tzitzit. Yeshua wore them as well.

 In order to see what the New Testment is saying you have to understand the Tanach (Old Testament first).  I hoope this clears up your question. I will answer the rest of your post. However, im at work now.

Remember although Yeshua is the Moshiach he has to come as the suffering servant and then the King. He came first to remove the sin that got us barred from the Garden and Yeshua is G-d coming down to us to show us how to correctly IMPLEMENT Torah .