YOU:
[[[[..... so my focus should be on hebrew not greek. ......]]]]
Why? Scripture was written in Hebrew, Greek and a little in Syriac.
ME:
If you read what I said, I clearly stated that your NT is written in greek and Jesus DID NOT SPEAK GREEK, that is why. This to me is like Muhammad(saw) an arabic speaker yet all of his works are in english it is a rediciliuos notion.
YOU:
[[[[...... but you dont have any scriptures in hebrew, ......]]]]
Our Old Testament is largely in Hebrew.
ME:
Im not talking about the OT we are talking about the NT.
YOU:
[[[[..... actually it is not hebrew that jesus spoke but the dialect called aramiac which is a dead language...]]]]
Indeed it was pretty much dead to the Greeks too.
But for you to suggest that Jesus didn't address Jews in Hebrew, and Greeks in Greek would be akin to a U.S. businessman addressing a conference in Yiddish.
ME:
Being that jesus stated CLEARLY in YOUR BIBLE account that he came ONLY to the the house of ISRAEL I would expect that he would speak mainily in this language. But you want to speak different languages fine, no problem, let me ask you are you willing to take the challenge of your bible? According to your bible a person that drinks poision and is a believer would not die are you willing to drink poison to proove your faith to be truthful?
YOU:
[[[[....doenst that strike you as amazing, this is the language of your god that just died, ........]]]]
Languages evolve. You seem to not know that Arabic is a modern offshoot of Aramaic.
ME:
I would not be surprised, because Both languages comes from our father Abraham, even today the jews use the arabic words to understand the hebrew ones they read so obviously I am not surprised about this.
YOU:
[[[[........ in the case of islam the language not only survived ......]]]]
The Arabic of the Quran is a very pop-form of Arabic spoken by the Yemeni Quraish in the 7th century AD.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1693.0ME:
And what is your point? It is clear from the order of Abu Bakar and Umar that when the compilers of the quran met with a verse where the 7 dialects would not agree to use the Quarishi arabic, so it is only obvious the quran is written in such language, you speak of this as if it is a revealation, when it is common knowledge, as the prophet(saw) spoke in Quraishi arabic infact he had the nerve to be born in the Arab Quarishi tribe as well.
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YOU:
[[[[[ ..... in the case of islam the language not only survived but even those who do not speak a word in arabic with understanding does has the words of god memorized.]]]]
That's perhaps the greatest tragedy of Islam. Parrot dupes as opposed to folks trying to understand what the Quran actually says.
"Gerd Puin, the world's leading specialist in Arabic calligraphy and Qur'anic paleography, studying the oldest manuscripts, speaks with disdain about the willingness of Muslims and non-Muslims alike, to accept Islamic dogma. He says: "The Qur'an claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or clear, but if you just look at it, you will see that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur'an is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur'an is not comprehensible, if it can't even be understood in Arabic, then it's not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid."
ME:
You see it as a tragedy, I as a muslim see it as the fulfillment of the promise of Allah that the quran would be easy to memorize and that it would be protected, and look for 1400 + years the quran has not been altered not a single word has been entered in or taken out, that is the power of truth the protection god placed on his holy book.
YOU:
[[[[ .....none the less different topic, but the fact is Jesus needed a woman to be born, ......]]]]
Where do you find this revealed as a NEED of Yahshua/Yahweh?
Do you see what I mean about straw gods of your own creation?
ME:
I find it in the history that you and I both believe, did you forget that you capatalized the words VIRGIN WOMAN? Was he born outside of a woman? No the answer is he was born IN a woman and as such he NEEDED a woman to be born, I am not talking about the ability of God, I am talking about facts jesus didn't just come out of the sky and did what he had to do, he had to come into the world via a woman.
You should take the log out of your eye as jesus commands you to do before you attempt to tell me about my straw, because the fact is clear, you believe it so, you not only believe it but you prophesize that jesus was born of a virgin so why all of a sudden that is not truth?
YOU:
[[[[........ here this guy meldechidesec needed no one, he was born outside of any human intervention according to your bible, .......]]]]
It could mean that, or the passage may be understood as simply as recognizing that his parents and genealogy were a historical mystery.
I tend to favor the christophany.
ME:
Again I am a layman and I refuse to use words I do not understand, if god was so stupid that he would not make his religion easy for the totally uneducated to understand that shows well how stupid god is. I ofcourse do not believe in a stupid god, infact the god I believe in made his religion so simple that any person with 5 fingers would not be able to forget what islam teaches that is how simple the religion of Islam is. I don't sit here and come up with fancy words to explain way anything in islam, granted some words when translated looses its meaning but that goes back to why the quran is kept in arabic so we don't loose any of the meaning.
Anyways lets look at this christophany of yours and from it I will still PROOVE to you that it is a waste of time argument. This entire problems we are speaking about stems from Hebrews so lets look more into it.
The verse:
Hebrews 7 (NIV)
1This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, 2and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." 3Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.
Read what the verse says about Melchizedek it says "3Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever." read it again "like the Son of God" what does it say? LIKE the son of god that is to say he is NOT the son of god, that is to say he is made similar to the son of god, that is to say if you are consistient you would be worshiping him as you worship the son of god that goes to show you that even with this supposed claim of christophany it is clear that the author of Hebrews states clearly that this person was NOT Jesus (because you believe jesus to be the son of god)
YOU:
[[[[....... so if anyone needs to be called god it would be him not jesus.]]]]
See what I mean? Your straw god of your own creation again.
Why don't you study a little about the mystery surrounding this character in both Judaism and Christianity?
Start with a Google like - melchizedek was jesus
That will help you see the ignorance you professed when you admitted "...i have NEVER heard a single christian refer to him as god..."
ME:
Why should I waste my time searching to see what others have to say, I should read the scriptures and let it speak for it's self, if God's words are not clear how can any other man's words be clear?
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YOU:
Not at all. My view is supported by the hundreds of verses that detail the unique relationship between Yahweh and Yahshua ("Yahweh saves") that is detailed in the hundreds of verses regarding Yahweh and THE only begotten Son of Yahweh. It is you that must so foolishly ignore them in your effort to bend the entirety of the New Testament to what you wish it said.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=56.0http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=316.0That's the reason some versions didn't bother to bracket the helper words. They knew that nobody could be mentally challenged enough to read the Gospel, and this verse in context, and not see the difference between Adam being FORMED from the dust of the ground and Yahshua THE MESSIAH being CONCEIVED by a virgin.
ME:
Then they were wrong, because this mentally challenged person who expects the words of god to be perfect expects that when it says something I shoud usderstand it as such.
And the fact is in the sequence of the verse everyone else WAS the son of the previously mentioned and all of a sudden when ti comes to Adam the thing magically does not mean the same thing
And what do you mean by concieved by a virgin? What are you tring to tell me that god had sex with mary? In islam he was not concieved he was spoken into existience so please explain to me what you mean by concieve by a virgin?
YOU:
{{{{{.......... yes I agree god created mankind, and I apply the same form of creation to Jesus .......}}}}
But the hundreds of scriptures you deny, do not. You wish to follow a god of your own creation, as well as your reprobate false prophet's creation.
ME:
It is you who follow the god of Paul's creation, Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad(saw) all taught the same thing about god that he is one and has no partners anything else is false, you claim that jesus is god but not the father as such you believe in a separate god and I keep asking you to expain this relationship without prooving hinduism and you keep ignoring this question because you know with fact that you cannot. So it is you who are followign a false prophet's creation, jesus commanded the worship of one god, he even prayed to this one god, and don't attempt to tell me this was him teaching us how to pray when the bible clearly says he goes off by himself to pray to god.
Mark 1:35 - "And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed."
Now I ask if Jesus was god, who did he leave and go pray to? Does god need to pray to himself?
YOU:
{{{{{...... but you do not believe in that application of creation, you take words literally for jesus and figuratively for others, and as such you have a very conflicted idea of who jesus was... if you apply the same standard you will not come to the conclusion that you do. None the less waste of time discussion the FACT is that for you to be OF something that means you are a part of it. I am of my Father, because my father's sperms is what is responsible for creating me, Adam is OF god because he was created and so was jesus OF god because he was created but you are not going to accept this understanding so we are going to keep going in circles here.}}}}}
It is you that has no sense of reason. You pretend there is no difference between one FIRST human being FORMED from the dust of the ground, and the other CONCEIVED by a virgin by the will of Yahweh, much later on, that came as THE MESSIAH, while ignoring the rest of the New Testament - as if this verse were the only one in the New Testament.
ME:
Do you understand what a standard is? Why are you not applying this to the conversation, you are coming up with all these fancy ways of explaining things but rather than holding a standard, to me the creation of jesus is not as miraclous as the creation of Adam, because jesus came from another Life, but adam came out of NOTHING Dust didn't exist before god created this dust and from it he created man that is more miracalious than a woman getting pregnant but you are downplaying a true miracle to elevate another miracle.
YOU:
In Mohammedanism you have to pretend there is no difference between Yahshua, who even you believe never died, and a murdering, prisoner raping, 7th century thief, whose corpse still lies rotting in it's shallow grave.
ME:
I do not follow a religion called Mohammedanism first of all... secondly Jesus was not killed nor crucified but it was made to appear so as the quran stated, this is where there are accounts that claim the event occurred but infact it didn't. And you can come up with all the insults you like about my beloved prophet the fact remains you are a pagan worshiping individual who thinks they are worshiping god, and knowingly decieving themselves so I follow someone that taught me to survive and worship the one true god, you follow somone who attributed godship to a person that never claimed it that is pagan worshiping if I knew any better.
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YOU:
Your efforts to wear me out by ignoring answers you have already been given, won't make your demigod any more real.
This freedom from accountability, is the same reason you are afraid to come to the forum.
ME:
you havent given any answers which is why i asked you the question i did, why are you wasting my time telling me about something that has nothing to do with what we are discussing?
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YOU:
Then set the word aside if it hurts your head, and instead try the phrase "appearance of Yahshua in the Old Testament" as in THE EXAMPLE, that you ignored, to engage in more useless blather.
ME:
And I already explained to you the fact is the book of hebrews prooves that this person Meldechesik was not Jesus as I showed already.
YOU:
But it can easily be taught and understood on a lay level. Even in a phrase.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
You just don't understand, that you can't understand.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
You hate Yahshua, as does a jealous fallen angel, and insist on following Mohammed's moon god "Allah".
ME:
You call that explaining your religion in layman level? Ok lets ask a question in layman level to your repsonse.
If god has a son who was his wife?
Simple question can you answer it?
I do not hate jesus as he is most respected in islam, and I do not believe in a moon god because clearly the quran states god created the moon so it would be rediclious for a being that claims in the quran that he is uncreated to be something he created (o wait that is what you are trying to proove to me in your own religion which is why you are so lost)
YOU:
{{{{{{{{{{{{....... it is not a religion worth wasting time with and clearly you cannot do this without introducing words that no one knows. }}}}}}}}}}
What you are really saying is that you have destroyed your intellect and capacity for understanding and learning, and accomplished voiding your mind sufficiently of scripture, history, archaeology and geography, to adopt the ignorance of a 7th century desert dwelling illiterate, so that you can continue to follow a 7th century illiterate reprobate murdering, prisoner raping, thief.
ME:
No I have not destoryed by intellect it is the one gift god gave to mankind that no other creature has, but the FACT is that science, history, archaelogy and geography changes based on new descoveries and new advances in technology, and I am not speaking with reguards to these things when ti comes to god, I am speaking in terms of what is attributed to god. Because hisotry, science or what ever other dicipline you can think of will not be the reason I go to heaven or hell, it is by my application of the laws set forth by god that will determine my path to heaven or hell.
And yes my prophet was illeterate, and he produced a book that is unmatched by the most litereate of them all, that shows how blessed he was that god gave him what he gave no other. Alhamdu lillah I am a muslim and I subit my will to the will of the one who created my soul
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I have answered all of your questions multiple times, now i ask you very simply answer my question.
PROOVE YOUR RELIGION WITHOUT PROOVING HINDUISM TO ME.
i have asked you this multiple times and you are yet to respond, if you did respond in your last round of emails let me know and i will read them to find the proof of yours, if not i will not open the emails you sent so that i dont loose track of unresponded emails to you.
proove to me taht your relgiion is not simply hinduism. when you boil it down.
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YOU:
My religion is based on the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind through all of the prophets and witnesses that He chose. Are you suggesting that's what Hinduism is also based on?
ME:
No i am suggesting YOUR CONCEPT OF GOD is the concept of hinduism, that god comes on earth to deal with man, that is what i am talking about.
YOU:
That's because your question, in and of itself, makes no sense.
Try reading your own question and see if you can make any sense of it.
ME:
My question makes perfect sense to me, if you dont understand say that you dont understand there is no problem with that... my question is your concept of god, because you must admit the only difference in what you believe about god and what i believe about god is the concept of god, so explain to me this concept of god that you beleive in without prooving the relgion of my ancestors, because to me their religion is more consistient than yours. so explain to me how god is divided and not seperate, yet each part of him has a different experience.
YOU:
Which could all have been very well organized in the forum, if you weren't such a coward. Don't blame me for your fear.
ME:
no the reason i stop comming to your forum is that you would send me a book of discussion actually there were like 11 different topics you were discussing at the same time i dont have time for that, it is a waste of my time one topic at a time, even in the emails you started talking about nothing to do with the topics, we are talking about the sonship of adam you are talking about how many muhammad(saw) had sex with his wife what does that have to do with sons of god i have no idea, so no i dont fear you, you can take taht gas and well i think you know what to do with it.
YOU:
My religion comes from the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind that His people have followed for 3500 years.
ME:
show me in the OT where god commands that HE will die for your sins?
YOU:
As far as I know Hinduism comes from their own record - not from Scripture.
ME:
They do have a scripture it is called the VADAs, the Gita and other works are recorded history based on what they remember but the Vada is their actual scripture.
YOU:
Since I am relatively unfamiliar with Hinduism, I can only assume that you desire to find a similarity or parallel of some kind. If indeed that is what you so poorly attempted to communicate, then that perception is a produce of your own desires. Simply more of your blasphemy against Yahweh.
Are you saying you deny that Yahshua was born of a virgin?
ME:
well let me tell you about the religion of my ancestors, that i grew up very close to, they beleive that there is ONE god, who came in MANY forms on the face of the earth to help man, from every aspect, he came as a man, woman, elephant, and anything else you can possibly think of, god came in this form so that he can relate to his creation. Krishna one of the incarnations of god was born out of a virgin according to their scripture but that is the least of my concern with the question i ask you. because you see quite simply you cannot explain that god is one devine being and yet 3 DISTINCT persons without prooving to me taht hinduism is infact a religion that is EXACTLY The same, the only difference would be that you limit the incarnation of god to 1 they say no it is over 333 million incarnations.
and what kind of muslim would deny that jesus is born of a virgin, are you loosing your mind? how can i deny what is written in my quran? only an idiot would expect someone to deny their own faith that they are speaking in high reguards of, so if you think i am an idiot i think you are speaking to the wrong person. and what does that have to do with the conversation of explaining to me your concept of god? absolutly nothing. but this is the tactics of christians, a set of gas and nothing behind it.
YOU:
Now the question that you ran and hid from that addresses THE VERY FOUNDATION of the rituals of Mohammed's 7th century cult.
ME:
I did not run from any of your questions, infact i think i stated clearly that i will not read the other emails until you answer the simple question of what you believe when compared to hinduism because it is almost now a week that i asked this question and you have not yet answered me.
YOU:
What part of the Hajj and Umrah that Muslims engage in today, is not performed the very same way that the Arabian pagans performed these rituals, before Mohammed was ever born?
ME:
very simple after Tawaf we perfrom 2 rakaat salaat to god, never done before by the pagans. but again a waste of time answering you because you are not even eger to know the truth you just hurl accusations and divert the topic, because simply put you cannot proove your concepts of god without prooving the religion of my forefathers. Atleast they are consistient in their belief to them EVERYTHING is god, they understand the verse Adam is OF god better than you ever will
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YOU:
I googled - hinduism christianity similarities - to see if this is where you were trying to go, and started with the first site.
http://hinduism.about.com/od/basics/a/christianity.htmThe author demonstrates as much ignorance to Christianity as you nali.
"You may find it surprising that much of Christianity originated from India.]]]]]
Sure. Doesn't everybody know that Yahshua was a hindu from India, and THE Holy Land was India and not Israel? That's what Mohammed taught as well, didn't he nali?
ME:
Has nothing to do with where I am coming from in this discussion, I believe that jesus was a jew so obviously this has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.
YOU:
[[[[[ Indeed, over the centuries, numerous historians and sages have pointed out that not only has Hinduism had a predominant influence on Christianity, but that many of the Christian rites could be directly borrowed from Hindu (Vedic) India.]]]]]
What he actually means is that much of Roman Church heresy comes straight out of paganism (as did Constantine), and non-Catholic Christians would almost universally agree with this.
ME:
Again nothing to do with where I am coming from, but to answer your question it is Catholicism
YOU:
[[[[[French historian Alain Danielou had noticed as early as 1950 that "a great number of events which surround the birth of Christ - as it is related in the Gospels - ]]]]]
Which includes Yahshua's virgin birth which you, nali, seem to have taken to blaspheming against.
ME:
What have I blasphemed about jesus' birth, I clearly believe he was born of a virgin and I clearly believe that is is NOT god.
YOU:
[[[[[.......... the rigorous asceticism of certain early Christian sects, which reminds one of the asceticism of Jain and Buddhist saints; ..........]]]]]
Quick Yahoo
"...... "exercise" or "training" in the sense of athletic training) describes a lifestyle characterized by abstinence..."
At least you don't have to be associated with such a pagan thing as abstinence, since you are a Muslim, eigh nali!
ME:
Again has nothing to do with my question
YOU:
Is this what you were alluding to my friend? Are you incapable of embarrassment? You can see that your black stone veneration is far more parallel to Hinduism than to Christianity.
You just wish to pretend that Roman Catholic heresy is Christian, to embellish and further decorate your straw god, of your own creation.
I'll copy and paste this subject into the forum so we can organize our chat related to your question better. Maybe you can answer mine there too.
ME:
Again I am not talking about anything that someone else told me about, I am talking about from my experience as I grew up with hinduism and christiany and islam I was born a muslim but I have family members who are of these religion and as they are family we are close and I participated in their events, so I learned about their religion.
So now because you claimed my asking the question was vague, answer the question about WHAT IS YOUR CONCEPT OF GOD? And don't forget to include your trinitarian concepts, because clearly that is hiduism's grounds.... Customs etc are such a waste of time, because the thing that we are talking about is GOD.
