Re: Ortho-Millennialism: Bringing Order to End-Time Chaos - Gerald Haug WAKE-UP-MIN

[ExMilitary]

Am I understanding that this man believes that the resurrection and second coming have already occurred?

[edit add 8-8-15: This is a continuation of the first half of the conversation available at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3601.0 - end edit]

[PeteWaldo]

Am I understanding that this man believes that the resurrection and second coming have already occurred?

Yes. It is what is called full or hyper preterism. All Bible prophecy was fulfilled by the end of 70 AD, in spite of the reality of the restoration of Jews to Israel.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/partial_preterism.htm
Though for some reason he tries to make his approach appear to be unique.

Full or partial preterism (about the same except partials believe resurrection and Second Coming yet future) is an increasingly popular eschatology, mainly because so many who increasingly come to recognize the source and error of futurism believe preterism is the only other place to turn, rather than approaching Bible prophecy through the historicist tradition of both Jews and Christians:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm

[PeteWaldo]

I managed to post here:
".....his words in Matthew 24:34 can be taken literally – as he was referring to the generation in the first century A.D."
What preterists like Haug generally fail to mention, is that the Greek word "houtos" translated as "this" (generation) is also translated as "the same" on 26 other occasions in the KJV (which could indicate any generation after that was penned that has seen all those things as having been fulfilled).
What haug also fails to mention is that his belief that the resurrection of the dead and the Second Coming of Christ happened in the first century, stands outside of nearly 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker (eat as gangrene at the body of Christ): of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

and

It is such a shame that over the last two centuries the church traveled so far away from the tradition of historic amillennialism of those great men of God of the Reformation. http://www.christianeschatology.com
http://global.christianpost.com/news/many-christians-misled-about-israel-and-the-end-times-author-argues-71699/


In another blog

Awaiting moderation:
 PeteWaldo says:   
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
July 19, 2013 at 3:36 pm   
As in all such discussions on preterism and futurism relative to each other, is an absolute dearth of discussion on the historic amillennialism of those great men of God of the Reformation like Matthew Henry and Isaac Newton, which evidence suggests was also the view of the church up until preterism and futurism began to come into vogue in the 19th century. Folks often dismissing this traditional context out of hand while never even having investigated it, even though ALL Jews and Christians are historicists, when it comes to Old Testament prophecy.
http://www.christianeschatology.com

Next day:
 PeteWaldo says:   
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
July 20, 2013 at 6:24 am   

Actually the “not taste of death” is related to Jesus coming in his kingdom, which He ushered in along with His/our temple that He built in three days. There are really too many verses that support it, to deny amillennialism. Like John telling us he is our companion in the kingdom of Jesus Christ as well. But in Matthew 24:34 “this generation” the Greek “houtos” translated as “this” is also translated as “the same” on 26 other occasions in the KJV. In conjunction with a Greek English interlinear the verse could be rendered:
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, {the same} generation shall not pass, {whereinsoever} all these things {shall have taken place}.
Thus “all these things” also includes the times of the gentiles fulfilled in Jerusalem. Could hardly have been fulfilled in 70 AD since the Roman GENTILES came back to whack another half million Jews less than 70 years later. Gentiles ruled Jerusalem up until 1967 when Jews gained control. As date pinned by Daniel to the year, 2500 years in advance:
http://www.beyondtheharbinger.com/
http://blog.adw.org/2012/11/why-the-modern-view-of-the-book-of-revelation-may-be-flawed/comment-page-2/#comment-175456

http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/2012/01/times-swami-write-press-release/

[PeteWaldo]

http://global.christianpost.com/news/many-christians-misled-about-israel-and-the-end-times-author-argues-71699/

and the next day:

John Hillary - The tribulation for Jews ended in 70AD even though 8 million were killed by the Nazis? Gerald Haug's Pastor declared: "we need to correct our doctrine in this area, even if it shakes peoples faith." Perhaps appropriately since 2Timothy 2:18 suggests it may "overthrow the faith of some". Rather than overthrowing faith, countless people have told Ellis Skolfield that his Dan-Rev study - done within the TRADITION of historic amillennialism of great men of God like Matthew Henry and Isaac Newton - has brought them back to the Lord after leaving from disappointment over the pop-eschatologies of futurism and preterism. And you don't need a book buy-back promise since all of Skolfield's ministry materials are available free online. If you haven't ever considered a study within this traditional context, why not try just a chapter or two:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_false_prophet.htm

John Hillary - My book makes no prediction on when Christ returns. There is no mention of 100 years at all. I was interviewed via telephone and in my excitement I misspoke. Lesson learned. My book primarily focuses on those prophecies that have already been fulfilled. Most of the TV evangelists and Joel Rosenberg have NOTHING to say about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. They rip Scripture out of its context when portions of it were clearly fulfilled in 70 AD; yet they deceitfully ignore this. This type of exegetical malpractice is undermining peoples faith and subtly telling them that the Bible is too difficult for the average layman to read. Nothing can be further from the truth. The Bible is designed for the layman. My book unravels the TV preacher spin and shows the layman how to read the Bible in its proper historical context.

Gerald Haug - "...subtly telling them that the Bible is too difficult for the average layman to read. Nothing can be further from the truth. The Bible is designed for the layman."
Yet in post after post we find that you believe yourself to be uniquely qualified to declare 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine in error, regarding the resurrection of the dead and blessed hope of the Second Coming of our Lord and Savior. That this dire warning.....

2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker (eat as gangrene at the body of Christ): of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

.....was only operative for the few years after it was penned, and then for the next nearly 2000 years Christians have been expected to believe the EXACT OPPOSITE of that dire warning, and instead believe as Hymenaeus and Philetus that the resurrection of the dead is past already.

I should also clarify that I think it will take over 100 years before Christ returns, because the gospel has not had significant penetration in Muslim countries. I think Christ will ONLY return after the gospel has had significant penetration in the Middle East. Christ is much more interested in Christians spreading the gospel than us making false predictions about events in the Middle East. Many Christians seem to have a morbid fascination with a potential war in the Middle East, secretly hoping that some nuclear bomb will usher in the Second Coming and rescue them from their purposeless lives

Gerald Haug - "I should also clarify that I think it will take over 100 years before Christ returns, because the gospel has not had significant penetration in Muslim countries. I think Christ will ONLY return after the gospel has had significant penetration in the Middle East."
So then the unrepentant can relax and put of repentance with the promise of judgment deferred. This even as we witness the last of the Christian remnant being beheaded, hacked up with knives and machetes in once cosmopolitan Egypt, advancing the completion of the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom "beast's" conquest of John's "whole world" (with the exception of those protected by the democracy of the Israeli Jewish State).
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#the_tragedy
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
Matthew 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

Many Christians seem to have a morbid fascination with a potential war in the Middle East, secretly hoping that some nuclear bomb will usher in the Second Coming and rescue them from their purposeless lives

Gerald Haug - ".....hoping that some nuclear bomb will usher in the Second Coming and rescue them from their purposeless lives." Regarding your unChristian, mean-spirited and false accusation in transparent efforts to marginalize and vilify Christians that await the blessed hope of the imminent return of our Lord and Savior - as we have for nearly 2,000 years - what we look forward to is final judgment and DIVINE JUSTICE for such as the 2 million innocents killed or displaced in the Sudan alone by Muhammad's followers. Justice for the Christians being slaughtered and churches burned on an ongoing basis in Nigeria. Justice for all those murdered or subjugated to the followers of the false prophet Muhammad over the last 1400 years. And those of us on this side of the kingdom are not the only ones doing so:

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

While you are instead waiting for the near 100% Muslim middle east to convert (as the Christian remnant is being wiped out in Egypt as I write), even as "post-Christian Europe" falls to the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom beast "As Islam replaces Christianity as the dominant religion in Europe....."
http://www.christianeschatology.com/falling_away_apostasy.htm#apostasy_in_europe

[ExMilitary]

Actually the “not taste of death” is related to Jesus coming in his kingdom, which He ushered in along with His/our temple that He built in three days.

Not to mention (if, by "not taste of death" you are referring to the 16th chapter of Matthew) that the "some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see..." saw this actually take place six days later in chapter 17 of Matthew.  The testimony given by the presence of Moses and Elias (representative of both the Law and the Prophets) along with God's audible testimony and command during Jesus' transfiguration was a very near fulfilment of those very words... some standing there saw him coming in his kingdom.  It is no coincidence that all three synoptic gospels mention these events one right after another.

[PeteWaldo]

Besides such devises as omitting such things as the most germane verses regarding the Second Coming of Christ within the 14 pages that he uses to address that subject, here’s another example of how he sets up his prey. In his conclusion regarding Daniel’s 70th week he correctly suggests that “Daniel’s 70th week is often debated” and then lists ECFs like Augustine and Eusebius and others as well as later guys like John Gill and Adam Clarke that believed the 70th week to have been fulfilled. Closing the paragraph with: “So we are in agreement with some very good company.”

Then in the next paragraph he begins: “In regards to the division of Daniel’s 70th week, which is also debatable, the only consistent interpretation is that it is a split week.”

What division in Daniel’s 70th week?
Who besides him divides Daniel’s 70th week?
Consistent with whom? Augustine or Eusebius? Gill or Clarke? Or ........... me, myself and I?
He goes on to posit that the first half of the week runs between 26 to 30 AD and the second half between 67 and 70 AD, with a 37 year gap in between!
And preterists are generally the ones vilifying futurists for creating a gap!

But this is all moot since we can cut through all of the shenanigans with a simple and reliable shortcut, and that is his statement that “However, I am firmly convinced that Zionism is the doctrine of Satan.”. Then all we have to do is simply compare the fruit of the tree of Zionists to the fruit of the tree of anti-Zionists.

Let alone his anti-Israel mindset driving him to say such as: "Islam would implode under its own weight if it were not for hatred against Zionism."

Which not only displays abject ignorance to 1400 years of imperialistic Islamic aggression and conquest, and the two million innocents killed or displaced by Muslims in the Sudan alone, while ignoring the thousands of Christians murdered and churches burned in the Islamic conquest of Nigeria.....
http://www.nigeriacalabash.com/content/attack-christians-11-2011
.....and Christians murdered in Malaysia, Indonesia and everywhere else we find the murder mayhem and misery visited upon civil societies by the scourge of Islamic jihad, as well as the majority of the 21,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world just since 9-11 which have nothing whatsoever to do with Zionism. To suggest Zionism is responsible for Islamic jihad is buying into Satan's spin from such as Nazis, skinheads, David Duke and the KKK, Jeremiah Wright, Muslims and Louis Farrakhan.

[PeteWaldo]

Found the version I saw originally
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w96UR79TBw

Those students at UC Irvine are a perfect example of the spirit of antichrist in Islam, as revealed through 1400 years of Islamic censorship and dhimmitude, just as in most of the 53 nations that ban or restrict the Gospel today.
http://www.persecution.com/public/restrictednations.aspx?clickfrom=bWFpbl9tZW51

[PeteWaldo]

http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3601.msg15238#msg15238
"4. The last kingdom that John refers to is NOT the Islamic kingdom.  This is your interpretation, and nothing more.  The last kingdom that John refers to is actually the Kingdom of God which was established in 70 AD.  If you read my book you would understand that."

Isn't that interesting? So then I guess we are expected to understand that his is not an interpretation. This is his MO when you find him on blogs and such.

[PeteWaldo]

Actually the “not taste of death” is related to Jesus coming in his kingdom, which He ushered in along with His/our temple that He built in three days.

Not to mention (if, by "not taste of death" you are referring to the 16th chapter of Matthew) that the "some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see..." saw this actually take place six days later in chapter 17 of Matthew.  The testimony given by the presence of Moses and Elias (representative of both the Law and the Prophets) along with God's audible testimony and command during Jesus' transfiguration was a very near fulfilment of those very words... some standing there saw him coming in his kingdom.  It is no coincidence that all three synoptic gospels mention these events one right after another.

Great post! I guess I missed it because I posted just a few minutes later, so I never saw the icon get highlighted, to indicate that someone had posted.
Caught it just now when I posted on this topic again.
(that was my reply to Charles Pope on his blog on this subject http://blog.adw.org/2012/11/why-the-modern-view-of-the-book-of-revelation-may-be-flawed/comment-page-1/#comment-175638 )

Added this reply to Wm Bowers while I was there just now (awaiting moderation):
"I would then ask, are you understanding the book by its own verses and language, or more relying on Current Events Eschatology and Newspaper Exegesis?"
On the book and it's verses, as well as nearly 2,000 years of Christian era history. As particularly evidenced by the physical matter of fact of Jews being restored to Israel. Seems that restoration was date pinned by Daniel in two parallel math problems that span 2500 years. As recognized within the TRADITIONAL historicist approach to prophecy and amillennial context in common with those great men of God of the Reformation and Christians throughout the Christian era.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#time_of_the_end

[PeteWaldo]

It seems in the late 1990s some folks decided they needed to reinvent the Bible, perhaps to help sell preterism. Here's one preterist on the bible used by Dr. Haug.

http://preterism.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-preterist-heretic-bible
The Preterist Heretic Bible
2010 and Beyond:

Several years ago a dear friend of mine sent me a gift. It was a first edition version, hard copy of the Net Bible. I now wittily refer to it as the “ultimate heretic bible” because it contains the signatures of some of the most notable or shall I say, most notorious preterist’s in America.

Personally, I like to define preterist’s as men and women who wear the scarlet H letter simply because we believe the answer to the question Don Preston poses in his little booklet, “Can God tell time,” is yes and Amen. When I first became a preterist, Don’s little book about God’s timing was the icing on the cake for me as far as Realized Eschatology was concerned. God is the great watchmaker. Sorry Mr.Dawkin’s.

So now imagine if like minded Christian folk who shared this same, out of the normal Biblical world view, got together at one gathering? This is what exactly took place in April of 2008 in Dayton Ohio. It was TruthVoice,“Back to the Future” conference. Here is the notorious list of names who have signed this Bible.

Don K. Preston, Sam Frost, Ed Stevens, Jack Scott, David B. Curtis, Tim Martin, Jeff Vaughn, Keith and Tami Jelinek, Mickey Denen, Ed Burly, Terry Hall, Virgil Vaduva, Rich Duncan, Mark Chiacchira and one other signature I’m assuming has to be another doctor of some sort because I can’t figure it out to save my own life.

As you can see, most of the heavy hitters in the preterist movement have signed and even wrote some very kind comments concerning my art and myself. Mr. Jeffery Vaughn writes that I'm his “best bud.“ Now in symbolic preterist language, “bud” meaning as compared to him, who is the mighty oak branch, I was the fledgling bud that colored his book project, Beyond Creation Science.

Of course, there are some other fellow heretic’s whom I’ve had the honor to meet and get acquainted with these past several years that I count as good friends as well. Max King, Jason Bradfield, Fred Robbins, and Ward Fenley just to name a few. I guess my point being, like family, you can’t pick your friends if God is involved in the process. I’m pretty sure in His day, Jesus was considered a heretic as well. So we are in good company.

For what it is worth, this Bible is a precious gem to me because it always reminds me of the great diversity of theological thought that dares to venture beyond the norm of conventional religious tradition to seek out the truth of God no matter the cost. We all have our covenantal flaws or some of our emergent opinions in some form or another but I’ve seen the heart and spirit these friends of mine have displayed. They are all great in the kingdom of heaven. Not because of what the believe but because of their love for God‘s Word and the great potential their contributions to the faith foster in knowing God even more intimately.

2010 will be a great year because my preterist heretic Bible will always be a visual reminder that in the end, God’s truth will prevail. It will endure forever in spite of the Jack Van Impe’s, Tim LaHaye’s or even what the Mayan Calendar has to say about the end of days. As preterists we know our victory is secured and our hope is truly fulfilled. We may have our differences but that ironically, is our gift. As children of God, we just need to learn how to properly share these gifts at times.

Be well and blessed this holiday season.

James Robert Kessler