Your questions are absurd, your comments raving lunacy and your conclusions are just plain vanity (insanity)
I cant eevn start to correct all your errors of judgement,.......
....... You say you want to seek the truth but have the talent to distort every thing that is not from the archives of the Roman Catholics (or the corrupted Nicean Council or the self serving doctrine of Augustine.
The True story according to you is so full of lies and deception on your part It does not deserve a reply.
My Dear Pete
In order to understand the Religion of the Most successful person in the history of the world you need to believe in the GOD of Adam and all the Prophets including Jesus may ALLAH bestow Peace upon them all.
You have to denounce your worship of a human that you say is the Son of GOD, worshipping a humen -God or Son-god or Spirit-God makes you Mushrik (a person that ascribes partners to ALLAH).
Your True Story is your version of the history as told by enemies of Islam as you are telling people your story according to your intellect, Let me give you an example of a Jesus Story that is very plausible and can be found by Googling the Tomb of Jesus in kashmir.
The links will clearly give you documented history of a very good person that had to flee from his homeland due to severe persecution and they even crixified him, he had the marks and scars to prove it.
This evidence proves beyond a shodow of a doubt that the all the events of Jesus is true to the point of Resurrection when Jesus actually Rose of recovering for three days and left (descended over the Mountains) to the east and settled in Kashmir.
Now despite all the evidence, to the contrary, I still believe the version that Prophet Jesus (messiah born of Mary) was taken into heaven by ALLAH and he will return one day.
Your story is biased against Islam and has no merit in the history books though it is a plausible version but the plausibility is not a basis for the truth.
You sell theory as Truth and for me to waste my time trying to explain the truth about geography, .......
........ like the tilt of the earth that changes the realation to north east (sunrise) and, the ability to plot a map accurately and to take into account the fact that all your evidence is folklore or stories that has been transmitted over time by different types of human (there are no digital archives of 5000 years ago) there are no books dating to 5000 years BC ......
..... and the language used was more than likely ARABIC!
The Variables and the length of time is very prohibitive and we can only take the words of the Prophets as Gospel (the truth) the final Messenger gave you the final message and you now not only seek to deny it but you have to the audacity to lie about the so called evidence you have
Only an ignorant fool would believe such drivel, Historians .......
....... that guarded their work for 5000 years, the integrity of the Scripture is not garunteed a true copy of the Original Latin, let alone the Greek or the Aramaic (does not exist) and that is 2010 years ago, how on earth do you without batting an eyelid tell the story of Abraham from a made up historian.!!!
The worship you talk about is not of the Black Stone....
The black Stone was there before Muhammad which only proves ...........
that worship of the Idols was a deviation from a much older religion, like the religion of Abraham, Man has been sent 125000 Prophets each time they stryaed from the Path of ALLAH. ALLAH wants you to return to that Path and prophets were chosen from amongst the Tribes. Men that assumed that they know what ALLAH wants then starts to mislead the masses and man falls into worshipping of other men, deifying men, worshipping spirits and idols (wealth, power, church, state or system)
The final messenger (Muhammad) was shown what is sacred and what is not and obviously kept what is sacred, and idscarded the practices that were not, like The Ka'aba and performing the tawaaf around it comes from the practice of prophets., Jerusalem (never destroyed by muslims, ever) the home of many Prophets, Jesus, messiah born of mary and the practice of Abraham (HAJJ)
I can go thorugh all the Islamic rituals for you one by one and link it to a previous prophet. (jesus fell on his face and Prayed (did he not?) .......
...... did he wash his feet before he prayed, did he fast?
Well the Muslims do all of that in the manner shown to them.
Your question is irrelevant and rhetorical. The stone was incorrectly worshipped ........
....... and t let me remind you that this is a discussion board not a court of law, where the procedure is not more important than the truth. The truth about Makkah and the Ka'ba and the black stone was given its proper position in the world by Muhammad.
Wrongs were corrected, incorrect worship was corrected by The prophet Muhammad. He came as a mercy unto all creation and to give the world clarity on the duties it has toward The Creator, the Prophets, the Scriptures and each other. The wisdom is not inferred or implied, it is explicit.
The black stone is not an object of worship .........
......... and the vast majority of muslims go through their entire lives without ever touching it.
Of the 1,8 biillion Muslims only 3-5 million make the pilgrimage to the Ka'aba annually.
The black stone is not part of belief, it is a very minor ritual.
I humbly urge that correct your incorrect belief by looking at the Scriptures from Genesis and return to the worship of the One GOD, the GOD of Israel, the GOD of Arabia and all creation.
The worship you talk about is not of the Black Stone....
Was the black stone one of the 360 idols that the pagans venerated (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1050.0) at the kaaba before Mohammed?
Yes or no?
The worship you talk about is not of the Black Stone....
Was the black stone one of the 360 idols that the pagans venerated (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1050.0) at the kaaba before Mohammed?
Yes or no?
I think i have clear your doubts?
I cannot understand how you can be so dogmatic about a simple ritual, .......
..... the word venerated is as many of your words is an attempt at misguidance and a clear indication of your intentions.
I have explained it to you but you do not accept it. Your failure to find the history of the Ka'aba (you checked the libraries in Makkah and Madina ??? of course not
The Muslims ruled the known world (70% of Europe) and collected all the books of knowledge in Bagdad (undisputed fact) that is why you have a bible today (thakns to the Muslims) ........
........ All the history of the Greeks, Romans, Persians, Spanish, and Christians 9t+remember Constantinople (now Istanbul) came under Muslim Rule.
So tell me who is more likely to have the books and History of the Entire Region stretching from The South of France in the West to China in the East, Russia in the North and Africa as far as the equator???????
Islam is not a simple minded religion (an ignorant disbeliever cannot understand it).
I will attempt to explain Islam to you in context of the Black stone. that you say is venerated as the pagan worshippers did.
I begin in the Name of ALLAH the most merciful the most benevolent.
ALL praise is due to ALLAH the Lord of the Universe.
Dear Pete
I am scholar of Religion and the more I read Scripture (Jewish and Christian) and history of Religion (I live in a country where the Muslims are a very small minority) all our Books are Eurocentric and from American writers (western Scholars), I find the proof for the religion of Islam. The more books I read and do a comparison i find the evidence that Quran is divine and that it could not be written by a man, It could not be completely studied or the wisdom of the verses exhausted.
I am not a blind follower, nor am I Biased nor indoctrinated as I am free of national pride, economical might, I ahve no superiority complex built in as a consequence of the society i find myself in, I attended an Anglican School, very similar to a roman Catholic one and I am basing my belief and what I accept as the truth on the evidence presented to me.
I can Assure you that you are being misled, by your scholars, you cannot enter into a decent discussion without monotonous repeat and regurgitating false accusations based on the emotions of corrupted scholars who I can Assure you is definitely not doing it out of their love for Yeshua (Jesus) Nabi EESA, the Messiah, messenger and spirit of ALLAH. They are bound by their arrogant pride to prove that they are right. The truth of Islam will soon overtake all their efforts. The truth will reach the majority of the human race very soon as it is reaching you and you are free to accept it or reject it.
I don't deny Scripture but the light of Islam has endowed me with the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, your statements like "venerated" is a clear indication that you have absolutely no idea how Jesus Prayed, how he fstaed, how he fell on his face and Prayed, how his miracles are possible, how his disciples followed him and spread the true Injeel.
A prophet is marked by the fact that his coming changes the course of history and ushers in a period of peace (golden age) Muhammad's coming has clearly brought about the much needed change in the world from the 7-14th century. Reread the true history of the world.
Jesus second coming will mark his period of peace on earth. jesus did not die on the cross
The cross is a symbol of execution not and object of veneration unless you a pagan, Satan wants to see human blood being spilt not animal blood, Satan wants none of the divine laws for humans and Satan waants to digrace you by making you commit the greatest sin a human being can commit (ascribing partners to GOD)
There is none worthy of worship but ALLAH, Muhammad is the prophet and final messenger of ALLAH.
May ALLAH guide us to the Straight path, Ameen
Edward Gibbon writes about the Kaaba and its existence before the Christian era in his book: "The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era: in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad." Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia. 'And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians.'
G E von Grunebaum says: "Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary."
Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia
Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - by Aditi Chaturvedi
Many centuries before prophet Muhammad and the destructive advent of Islam, Arabia or Arabistan was an extremely rich and glorious center of Vedic civilization. It is the prophet Muhammad and the followers of Islam who are fully responsible for the dissemination and destruction of this once glorious culture.
In learning about this most ancient heritage, let's begin with the word Arabistan itself. Arabistan in Sanskrit terms is Arvasthan which means The Land of Horses. Since time immemorial proponents of the Vedic culture used to breed exceptional horses in this region. Thus eventually the land itself began to be called Arva (Horses) -Sthan (place). The people who lived in this land were called Semitic. Semitic which in Sanskrit is Smritic. Arabs followed the ancient Vedic Smritis such as Manu-Smriti as their revered religious guides and thus they were identified as Smritic.
At that time the Uttarapath (Northern Highway) was the international highway to the North of India. It was via Uttarapath that Arabia and other Middle Eastern countries drew their spiritual, educational and material sustenance from India. Besides, this Sea-links were formed with India at least 800 years before the advent of Islam. Basra was the ancient gateway to India because it was at this port that the Arab lands recieved Indian goods and visitors.
"Aya muwarekal araj yushaiya noha minar HIND-e Wa aradakallaha manyonaifail jikaratun"
"Oh the divine land of HIND (India) (how) very blessed art thou! Because thou art the chosen of God blessed with knowledge"
"Wahalatijali Yatun ainana sahabi akha-atun jikra Wahajayhi yonajjalur -rasu minal HINDATUN "
"That celestial knowledge which like four lighthouses shone in such brilliance - through the (utterances of) Indian sages in fourfold abundance."
"Yakuloonallaha ya ahal araf alameen kullahum Fattabe-u jikaratul VEDA bukkun malam yonajjaylatun"
"God enjoins on all humans, follow with hands down The path the Vedas with his divine precept lay down."
"Wahowa alamus SAMA wal YAJUR minallahay Tanajeelan Fa-e- noma ya akhigo mutiabay-an Yobassheriyona jatun"
"Bursting with (Divine) knowledge are SAM &YAJUR bestowed on creation, Hence brothers respect and follow the Vedas, guides to salvation"
"Wa-isa nain huma RIG ATHAR nasayhin Ka-a-Khuwatun Wa asant Ala-udan wabowa masha -e-ratun"
"Two others, the Rig and Athar teach us fraternity, Sheltering under their lustre dispels darkness till eternity"
This poem was written by Labi-Bin-E- Akhtab-Bin-E-Turfa who lived in Arabia around 1850 B.C. That was 2300 years before Mohammed!!! This verse can be found in Sair- Ul- Okul which is an anthology of ancient Arabic poetry. It was compiled in 1742 AD under order of the Turkish Sultan Salim.
That the Vedas were the religious scriptures to which the Arabs owed allegiance as early as 1800 B.C. proves not only the antiquity of the Vedas but also the existence of Indian rule over the entire region from the Indus to the Mediterranean, because it is a fact of history that the religion of the ruler is practised by his subjects.
Vedic culture was very much alive just before the birth of Muhammad. Again let's refer to the Sair-Ul-Okul. The following poem was written by Jirrham Bintoi who lived 165 years before the prophet Muhammed. It is in praise of India's great King Vikramaditya who had lived 500 years before Bintoi. (found in the Ka'aba)
"Itrasshaphai Santul
Bikramatul phehalameen Karimun
Bihillahaya Samiminela
Motakabbenaran Bihillaha
Yubee qaid min howa
Yaphakharu phajgal asari
nahans Osirim Bayjayholeen
Yaha sabdunya Kanateph natephi
bijihalin Atadari Bilala masaurateen
phakef Tasabahu. Kaunni eja majakaralhada
walhada Achimiman, burukan, Kad, Toluho
watastaru Bihillaha yakajibainana baleykulle amarena
Phaheya jaunabil amaray Bikramatoon" - (Sair-ul-Okul, Page 315)
"Fortunate are those who were born during King Vikram's reign, he was a noble generous, dutiful ruler devoted to the welfare of his subjects. But at that time, We Arabs oblivious of divinity were lost in sensual pleasures. Plotting & torture were rampant. The darkness of ignorance had enveloped our country. Like the lamb struggling for its life in the cruel jaws of a wolf, we Arabs were gripped by ignorance. The whole country was enveloped in a darkness as intense as on a New moon night. But the present dawn & pleasant sunshine of education is the result of the favor of that noble king Vikram whose benevolence did not lose sight of us foreigners as we were. He spread his sacred culture amongst us and sent scholars from his own land whose brilliance shone like that of the sun in our country. These scholars & preceptors through whose benevolence we were once again made aware of the presence of god, introduced to his secret knowledge & put on the road to truth, had come to our country to initiate us in that culture & impart education."
Thus we can see that Vedic religion and culture were present in Pre-Islamic Arabia as early as 1850 B.C., and definitely present at the time of Mohammed's birth. (AT THE KA'ABA
In his book Origines, Volumes 3 & 4", Sir W. Drummond adds:
"Tsabaism was the universal language of mankind when Abraham received his call, their doctrines were probably extended all over the civilized nations of Earth."
Tsabaism is merely the corruption of the word Shaivism which is Vedic religion. On page 439 of this book, Sir Drummond mentions some of gods of pre-Islamic Arabs, all of which were included in the 360 idols that were consecrated in the Kaba shrine before it was raided and destroyed by Muhammad and his followers. Here are some of the Vedic deities and their original Sanskrit names:
Arabic Sanskrit English
Al-Dsaizan Shani Saturn
Al-Ozi or Ozza Oorja Divine energy
Al-Sharak Shukra Venus
Auds Uddhav -
Bag Bhagwan God
Bajar Vajra Indra's thunderbolt
Kabar Kuber God of wealth
Dar Indra King of gods
Dua Shara Deveshwar Lord of the gods
Habal Bahubali Lord of strength
Madan Madan God of love
Manaph Manu First Man
Manat Somnath Lord Shiv
Obodes Bhoodev Earth
Razeah Rajesh King of kings
Saad Siddhi God of Luck
Sair Shree Goddess of wealth
Sakiah Shakrah Indra
Sawara Shiva-Eshwar God Shiva
Yauk Yaksha Divine being
Wad Budh Mercury
The Kaba temple which was misappropriated and captured by Muslims was originally an International Vedic Shrine. The ancient Vedic scripture Harihareswar Mahatmya mentions that Lord Vishnu's footprints are consecrated in Mecca. An important clue to this fact is that Muslims call this holy precint Haram which is a deviation of the Sanskrit term Hariyam, i.e. the precint of Lord Hari alias Lord Vishnu. The relevant stanza reads:
"Ekam Padam Gayayantu
MAKKAYAANTU Dwitiyakam
Tritiyam Sthapitam
Divyam Muktyai Shuklasya Sannidhau"
The Shiv Ling at The Kaba. It was broken in seven places and now is held together by a silver band.
The Black Stone which is the Shiv Emblem (also known as Sange Aswad which is a corrupted form of the Sanskrit word Sanghey Ashweta--meaning non-white stone) still survives in the Kaba as the central object of Islamic veneration. All other Vedic Idols could be found buried in the precincts or trampled underfoot in labyrinthine subterranean corridors if archaeological excavations are undertaken. The Black Stone has been badly mutilated, its carved base has disappeared and the stone itself is broken at seven places. It's parts are now held together by a silver band studded with silver nails. It lies half buried in the South Eastern portion of the Kaba Wall. The term Kaba itself is a corruption of the Sanskrit word Gabha (Garbha + Graha) which means Sanctum.
In addition, in the inscriptions from Hajja and its neighborhood was found a votive vessel dedicated by members of two tribes called Rama and Somia. Rama and Soma are Vedic deities, Rama is of the Solar dynasty and Soma is of the Lunar Dynasty. The moon god was called by various names in pre-Islamic times , one of them was Allah. Allah had 3 children, Al-Lat, Al-Uzza and Manat. Al-Lat and Al-Uzza were both feminine deities. Alla is another name for the Hindu goddess Durga. It is obvious that the goddess Al-Lat was Alla (Durga) and Al-Uzza was Oorja (energy or life force also known as Shakti). Manat was none other than Somnath which is another name for Lord Shiva. One significant point to note that Soma in Sanskrit means Moon and Nath means Lord. Thus the Kaba itself was dedicated to the Moon God Somnath alias Shiv and the word Somnath was corrupted to Manat. The famous Black Stone is none other than the ShivLing of Makkeshwar alias Mecca. Lord Shiva is always shown with a crescent Moon on his head and every Shiva temple is supposed to have a sacred water spring representing the Ganges. The Crescent Moon pinnacle of the Kaba and the Zamzam spring (actually Zamza from Ganga) are irrefutable testaments to the Vedic origins of the Kaba.
Maqam-E-Ibrahim or more appropriately the pedestal of Brahma.
Muslims from all over the world pay homage to this shrine. This shrine is actually the pedestal of Brahma. Notice that the word, Ibrahim is actually a corruption of the word, Brahma. The octogonal grill which is a Vedic design, protects the holy footprints which represent the start of the creation nearly 2000 million years ago. Before it was captured by the Muslims it was an international shrine of the Vedic trinity.
In fact the names of the holiest of Muslim cities Mecca and Medina come from the Sanskrit words Makha-Medini which means the land of Fire-Worship. Even the most ancient names of these 2 cities were Mahcorava-which came from Mahadeva (Lord Shiva) and Yathrabn - which came from Yatra-Sthan (place of pilgrimage).
Islam came into being about 1372 years ago. It is well known that over 7500 years ago, at the time of the Mahabharat War, Kurus ruled the world. The scions of that family administered the different regions. Prophet Muhammed himself and his family were adherents of Vedic culture. The Encyclopedia Islamia admits as much when it says: "Muhammed's grandfather and uncles were hereditary priests of the Kaba temple which housed 360 idols!"
According to Arab traditions, Muhammad is a title. We do not know what name his parents had given him. We do however know that the central object of worship which survives at the Kaba today is a Shivling. That was allowed to remain there because that was the faceless family deity of Muhammad's family. One of the original names of Lord Shiv is Mahadev (The Great God) therefore it is entirely possible Muhammad came from Mahadev. This appears fairly certain because the Arabs still have a Mahadevi sect. Moreover the title Mehdi of a Muslim chief is also a malpronounciation of the term Mahadeva. According to Sanskrit etymology the term Muhammad implies 'a person of great inspiration' - 'Mahan
Muhammad's uncle was one of the resident priests of the Shiv temple known as "Kaaba". This sacred sanctum was decorated in an extremely rich and beautiful fashion. The Kaaba was astronomically oriented to face the winds. The minor axis of the rectangular base of the Kaaba was solistically aligned towards summer sunrise and winter sunset. It contained 360 statues of Vedic deities and was a shrine primarily associated with sun worship. The temple was an architectural representation of an interlocking set of theories covering virtually all creation and comprehending chemistry, physics, cosmology, meteorology and medicine. Each wall or corner of the Kaaba was associated with a specific region of the world. Thus this glorious Hindu temple was made to symbolically represent a microcosm of the universe. The Arabs would face east when praying. This representation of a microcosm demonstrated by the eight directional structure was derived from the Tantric pattern (Refer to Figure 1) of Hinduism. Right at the centre of the Kaaba was the octogonal pedestal of Bramha the creator. Today this very pedestal is called Maqam-E-Ibrahim by the Muslims. A tantric pattern defines the structure of Kaaba
Muhammad destroyed all 360 idols, but even he could not summon the courage to completely obliterate the Shivling in the Kaaba. He entered the temple and kissed the black stone. The Shivling was so sacred that the man who so detested idol- worship ended up kissing the largest idol in the Kaaba. Later his followers in a fit of piety broke the Shivling and then out of remorse repatched it together again. Today it lies broken at seven places and held together by a silver band studded with silver nails, bearing the name "Sangey Aswad" which came from the Sanskrit Ashwet meaning non-white or black stone.
On 1st January AD 630, the Prophet of Islam and 10,000 of his followers set out on the expedition to conquer Mecca. Their sole purpose of mind was to subvert all traces of the ancientmost religion of their forefathers. Nothing was to be considered sarcosanct, anything that was connected with Arabia's glorious Vedic heritage was to be defiled and distorted. Before setting out for Mecca, Muhammad had managed to turn his father-in-law and previous enemy Abu Sofian, leader of the Quraysh, into a traitor. Abu Sofian rode ahead of the Prophet's army into Mecca. Upon reaching he screamed at the townspeople, "Muhammad is coming, Muhammad is coming, he will be here with a force that we cannot resist".
Note: The Works "The Life & times of Muhammad" by Sir John Glubb, "Mohammed & the Rise of Islam" by D. S. Margoliouth, "The Art of Jordan" by Piotr Bienkowski, "Deities & Dolphins" by Nelson Glueck and "Hindu Temples: What Happened to Them?- Volume 2" by Sita Ram Goel have been used to compose this article.
I answered your Question on the black stone and you send it to spam because you dont like the answer!!!
The black stone is evidence that ALLAH had sent prophets to Arabia and that certain of the pagan worship was based on older scripture, have a look at the Vedic claims that Ka'aba used to be a Hindu temple and the black stone central to the worship. Muhammad mere continued in prophetic tradition and venerated the black stone as the previous prophets did.
Islamic scholars believe that 125000 prophets were sent to mankind over time from Adam, we do not know all there names, all their traditions and revelations.
The ones we do no are recorded in Scripture Approximately 25, all with the same message worship the ONE GOD and the ONeness of GOD!! only
Was the very same black stone, venerated by Arab pagans before Mohammed, or not?
Did Arab pagans circumambulate the kaaba and black stone in ceremony or not?
Yes or No?
See how easy it would make things if you simply answered YES? Since you know and I know that is the truth?
The fact is you bow toward and circumambulate the very same black stone that the pagans circumambulated.
That's a simple matter of fact, isn't it?
Why do you suppose you are so reluctant to admit it? Are you ashamed of the 5th pillar of Islam now that you have seen it's pagan origins?
Quote
Was the very same black stone, venerated by Arab pagans before Mohammed, or not?
Did Arab pagans circumambulate the kaaba and black stone in ceremony or not?
Yes or No?
See how easy it would make things if you simply answered YES? Since you know and I know that is the truth?
The fact is you bow toward and circumambulate the very same black stone that the pagans circumambulated.
That's a simple matter of fact, isn't it?
Why do you suppose you are so reluctant to admit it? Are you ashamed of the 5th pillar of Islam now that you have seen it's pagan origins?
Dear Peter, well actually thank you Peter
You have been inspirational, I started to ask questions and found very interesting answers
Yes the stone is venerated by all Muslims and I have to ask why and the reason is that the pagans did it and where did they get it from, well apparently the Indians have the answer,
Is GOD unfair, well no, did GOD not send prophets and warners to everyone on earth? well yes he did, is the rituals Muhammad's own doing, he never participated in anything other than the placing back of the stone .....
...... and never venerated it until commanded to!!
Tawaaf aorund the ka'aba was changed, as commanded by ALLAH and so it goes on, all the practices based on earlier prophetic, traditions,
belief and conviction of Abraham, his sacrifice, his Journey, his wife running for water, the water, .....
......Moses and the Pharoah and the Prophetic laws (all Islamic Laws Now)
Wisdom of Solomon
Faith of Job (through trials and tribulations)
Faith of Jonas
David and Goliath (One man against the falsehood of the day)
Handsome like Joseph
Jesus Messiah born of mary(teaching love Hope and Charity) all Islamic laws
Muhammad gave us the wisdom and the prayers of all the prophets
ITs not pagan worship, or plagiarized or stolen or imitated, .......
......... or falsified or soothsaying, or poetry competitions or the beast ......
....... or the mark of the beast, .......
...... it is simply a guide to perfecting your character, by perfecting your relationship with ALLAH.
And ALLAH knows best.
Quote "Allah" is the name of the pagan moon god. It will never be a NAME of God. |
Quote"Allah" is the name of the pagan moon god. It will never be a NAME of God.
Surely you cannot be that ignorant of the language of the prophets and Jesu, ......
.... well if you are a simple minded ......
..... example might help to clear things up for you:
al elah(ALLA) The GOD, AL the one and only elah(GOD) <br />from the first scripture revealed to the Cross, elah elah (al elah) ALLAH
Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".
The Christian Arabs of today have no other word for "God" than &"Allah".[6]
(Even the Arabic-descended Maltese language of Malta, whose population is almost entirely Roman Catholic, uses Alla for "God";.) Arab Christians for example use terms All?h al-?ab (???? ????) meaning God the Father, All?h al-ibn (???? ?????) mean God the Son, and All?h al-r?? al-quds (???? ????? ?????) meaning God the Holy Spirit (See God in Christianity for the Christian concept of God).
... you only listen to European and Americanized logic and that makes you a racist, you refute evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians that the Ka'aba existed long before Christianity...
Two points I would like to address.
1. At what point does disagreeing with someone make them a racist?
2. You haven't presented any evidence. You have just shared opinion and presupposition. When confronted with verses from the koran and hadith that have consistently shown Muhammad to be immoral and his religion a pagan rip-off you obfuscate instead of actually answering questions.
In the future keep personal attacks to yourself or at least be prepared to give evidence of their validity.
Posted on: July 05, 2010, 04:28:34 PM Posted by: AnnaMuslim
Dear Peter
Everything I type is relevant and not spam, ......
...... you have so little understanding that I have to begin at the basics in order for you to grasp simple Religious concepts, before you are able to understand your role as a human being.You are not a person that listens to logic, you only listen to European and Americanized logic and that makes you a racist, ........
...... you refute evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians that the Ka'aba existed long before Christianity, ......
........ you present opinions as evidence.
Most disturbing is that you quote from the Quran and Hadith out context and verses you have no knowledge of, you act out of ignorance, and your disrespect is not dialogue.
PICTURE YOURSELF IN THE YEAR 610 SURROUNDED BY THE KIND OF SLAVE WHIPPING, CHILD MURDERING, TRIBAL DISCRIMINATION, .......
....... JEWISH EXPLOITATION ......
..... (JEWS OUTNUMBERED ARABS IN MADINA) IN AN IDOL WORSHIPPING REGION. WHERE THE ONLY PLACE THEY DIDNT KILL YOU WAS AROUND THE KA'ABA.
Picture a place that attracted people from Africa, .......
Dear Peter
Everything I type is relevant and not spam, you have so little understanding that I have to begin at the basics in order for you to grasp simple Religious concepts, before you are able to understand your role as a human being.You are not a person that listens to logic, you only listen to European and Americanized logic and that makes you a racist, you refute evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians that the Ka'aba existed long before Christianity, ........
......... you present opinions as evidence. Most disturbing is that you quote from the Quran and Hadith out context and verses you have no knowledge of, you act out of ignorance, and your disrespect is not dialogue.
Let me clear up the Black stone story for you.
I for one don't venerate it, ...........
Dear Peter, well actually thank you Peter
You have been inspirational, I started to ask questions and found very interesting answers
Yes the stone is venerated by all Muslims and I have to ask why and the reason is that the pagans did it and where did they get it from, well apparently the Indians have the answer,
YOU have not once prayed for me in this FORUM, shows ho little you care for the advice of Jesus.
Dear Peterhttp://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1079.msg6416#msg6416
Everything I type is relevant and not spam, you have so little understanding that I have to begin at the basics in order for you to grasp simple Religious concepts, before you are able to understand your role as a human being.You are not a person that listens to logic, you only listen to European and Americanized logic and that makes you a racist, you refute evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians that the Ka'aba existed long before Christianity, you present opinions as evidence. Most disturbing is that you quote from the Quran and Hadith out context and verses you have no knowledge of, you act out of ignorance, and your disrespect is not dialogue.
The historians cannot find evidence for Makkah because they are believing the wrong people, any evidence would be destroyed, not preserved .....
..... you refute evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians that the Ka'aba existed long before Christianity ...In the end, instead of bringing the evidence to support your false accusatioin, you change the subject and announce that you don't want to pursue the subject of the history of Islam - of course for obvious reasons - because there isn't any that isn't pure 7th and 8th century fiction.
"..... you only listen to European and Americanized logic and that makes you a racist,...."
The worship you talk about is not of the Black Stone....
Was the black stone one of the 360 idols that the pagans venerated (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1050.0) at the kaaba before Mohammed?
Yes or no?
I seek refuge in ALLAH from satan
I begin in the name of ALLAH the most merciful the most benefcent
All praise is due to ALLAH the creator of the entire Univerese
Dear peter
I obviously dont know how to answer you,....
.....regarding historical and archeological evidence from pagans, it is obviously a test of my emaan (faith) and a clear indication of your (Kufr) you do not present evidence that Makkah did not exist othre than the speculations of Dr Amari that he gets from pagan greek and Roman writers, and many scholars differ from his opinion and contradict everything he says:
QuoteOtherwise you are under obligation to present the "....evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians that the Ka'aba existed long before Christianity ...." that you claimed I "refuted".
DID YOU READ THE HINDU ACCOUNTS OF HOW THEY BELIEVE THE KA'ABA TO BE A HINDU TEMPLE FROM ABOUT 7000 YEARS AGO, THAT ARABIA ONCE WAS PART OF THE HINDUSTAN EMPIRE????
Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
- Reply #44 on: July 06, 2010, 09:29:24 AM �
Quote
Quote from: AnnaMuslim on July 05, 2010, 04:28:34 PM
... you only listen to European and Americanized logic and that makes you a racist, you refute evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians that the Ka'aba existed long before Christianity...
Two points I would like to address.
1. At what point does disagreeing with someone make them a racist?
2. You haven't presented any evidence. You have just shared opinion and presupposition. When confronted with verses from the koran and hadith that have consistently shown Muhammad to be immoral and his religion a pagan rip-off you obfuscate instead of actually answering questions.
In the future keep personal attacks to yourself or at least be prepared to give evidence of their validity.
Quote
Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
- Reply #44 on: July 06, 2010, 09:29:24 AM �
Quote
Quote from: AnnaMuslim on July 05, 2010, 04:28:34 PM
... you only listen to European and Americanized logic and that makes you a racist, you refute evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians that the Ka'aba existed long before Christianity...
Two points I would like to address.
1. At what point does disagreeing with someone make them a racist?
2. You haven't presented any evidence. You have just shared opinion and presupposition. When confronted with verses from the koran and hadith that have consistently shown Muhammad to be immoral and his religion a pagan rip-off you obfuscate instead of actually answering questions.
In the future keep personal attacks to yourself or at least be prepared to give evidence of their validity.
MY POINT WITH MY COPYING AND PASTING IS THAT MANY SY MANY THINGS WITHOUT MERIT LIKE DR RAFAT< IW ASTED MY TIME READING HIS OPINION OF GREEK AND ROMAN WRITERS THAT HAVE BOOKS FRO CHURCH SCOLARS THAT HAS HAD TIME TO ALTER COPIES OF DOMENTS THAT ARE NOT EXISTENCE. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE Required, Your word can hardly standup against the word of the MAN that has the tilte of ALAMEEN.
Reading Dr Rafat Amari's highly opinionated (he says that he comes to conclusions) based on inconclusive evidence of pagan Greek and roman writers work that has been copied by scholars and translated by others,edited and in many cases interpretted (phrases like we assume that the writer means this or that place) with no cklarity wahtso, ever,....
Baseless slander of the Quran and the Hadith does not make you scholar it makes you a slanderer and a liar.