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Topics - Phill

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Books / Qur'anic Geography by Dan Gibson 2011
« on: December 16, 2011, 04:29:10 PM »

Dan Gibson in this recent book explores the Geography of the Qur'an and associated Islamic documents. The theory is that Petra was the original Islamic Holy Mecca rather than where it is today. The evidence is well documented and presented and is a must read for any serious person wishing to study the history of Islam. Dan Gibson lived with the Beduin and in the Middle East for many years and is associated with the http://nabataea.net/ website.

http://books.google.com.au/books/about/Quranic_Geography.html?id=d4P7tgAACAAJ&redir_esc=y


The below link provides a PDF of some chapters contained in the book.

http://searchformecca.com/meccaquestion.html

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General Discussion / Was Mohammad from MECCA
« on: June 24, 2011, 08:30:41 PM »


Part 1

We all know from Hadith that says Mohammad was born and raised in Mecca and all Muslims believe this to be true and even most non Muslims as well. However, it has been well established that the life of Mohammad was first penned by IBN ISHAK in which his writings attributed to him are the only ones the world has to go by to know who Mohammad was.

Since even early Islamic scholars called Ishak a fraud, is it possible that Mohammad’s early life in Mecca has also been fabricated?. To find out these answers one has to put aside the Hadith and writings about the life of Mohammad and solely look at the Koran and evidence from non Islamic writings about him.

So can we geographically place Mohammad just by using the Koran as a guide and by using non Islamic sources ?. I believe we can!!.

Most will know that the Koran is broken up into two parts being the Meccan verses and Medina verses. Mohammad allegedly began his ministry in 610 A.D in Mecca and the verses are allegedly directly aimed at the pagans of Mecca. The current Geography of modern day Mecca probably isn’t all that different in Mohammad’s time, it’s hot, harsh and rocky with little rainfall most of the time. In Mohammad’s time agriculture in Mecca was non existent as it pretty much is today where everything has to be trucked in.

Let’s have a look at the Koran to see what Mohammad was preaching to his fellow Meccan’s to see what type of lives they lived.

The following verses are all Meccan verses:

Sura 6-141: It is He Who produceth gardens, with trellises and without, and dates, and tilth with produce of all kinds, and olives and pomegranates, similar (in kind) and different (in variety): eat of their fruit in their season, but render the dues that are proper on the day that the harvest is gathered. But waste not by excess: for Allah loveth not the wasters.

Sura 13:4 And in the earth are tracts (diverse though) neighbouring, and gardens of vines and fields sown with corn, and palm trees - growing out of single roots or otherwise: watered with the same water, yet some of them We make more excellent than others to eat. Behold, verily in these things there are signs for those who understand!

Sura 16:11 With it He produces for you corn, olives, date-palms, grapes and every kind of fruit: verily in this is a sign for those who give thought.

Sura 16:10 It is He who sends down rain from the sky: from it ye drink, and out of it (grows) the vegetation on which ye feed your cattle.

Sura 16:66 And verily in cattle (too) will ye find an instructive sign. From what is within their bodies between excretions and blood, We produce, for your drink, milk, pure and agreeable to those who drink it.


Sura 18:32 Set forth to them the parable of two men: for one of them We provided two gardens of grape-vines and surrounded them with date palms; in between the two We placed corn-fields.

Sura 23:19 With it (rain) We grow for you gardens of date-palms and vines: in them have ye abundant fruits: and of them ye eat (and have enjoyment.

Sura 23:19 With it We grow for you gardens of date-palms and vines: in them have ye abundant fruits: and of them ye eat and have enjoyment.

Sura 23:20 Also a tree springing out of Mount Sinai, which produces oil, and relish for those who use it for food.

Sura 23:21 And in cattle (too) ye have an instructive example: from within their bodies We produce (milk) for you to drink; there are, in them, (besides), numerous (other) benefits for you; and of their (meat) ye eat.

Sura 36:34 And We produce therein orchard with date-palms and vines, and We cause springs to gush forth therein:

Sura 80:27 – 80-32 And produce therein corn, And Grapes and nutritious plants, And Olives and Dates, And enclosed Gardens, dense with lofty trees, And fruits and fodder, For use and convenience to you and your cattle.
 
So here we have numerous verses in relation to what Mohammad’s polytheist opponents did for a living that Mohammad was trying to get through to. They appear to be farmers and agriculturalists in an area that would need to be rich and fertile.

It is rather striking when one looks at where Mecca is today that none of the activities mentioned in the above verses could ever occur in this vicinity even today let alone in Mohammad’s time.

Up next I will discuss the Geographical/Historical evidence from the Koran for clues as to where Mohammad started his ministry.

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We all know that the year of the Elephant is the year in which Mohammad was allegedly born. The year Islam credits for this event is the year 570 A.D. Islamic tradition says that another major event took place in the same year which is narrated in Sura 105 “The Elephant”, and what happened to the army that was marching on Mecca to destroy it and the Kaaba.
In a nutshell Allah sent flights of birds pounding the army of Abraha and his elephants with stones of baked clay and totally annihilated Abraha’s army and Mecca and the Kaaba were saved by the grace of Allah.
Abraha apparently escaped with serious injuries and died a short time later from them.

Lets have a look at real history through archaeology to see if this event really happened !!



The above rock carving was found in SaudiArabia and it talks about Abraha’s military expedition against he Arabs. Below is a translation of the event:

The inscription is now dated 552ce and reads:

"With the power of the Almighty, and His Messiah King Abraha Zeebman, the King of Saba'a, Zuridan, and Hadrmaut and Yemen and the tribes (on) the mountains and the coast wrote these lines on his battle against the tribe of Ma'ad (in) the battle of al-Rabiya in the month of "Dhu al Thabithan" and fought all of Bani A'amir and appointed the King Abi Jabar with Kinda and Al, Bishar bin Hasan with Sa'ad, Murad, and Hadarmaut in front of the army against Bani Amir of Kinda. and Al in Zu Markh valley and Murad and Sa'ad in Manha valley on the way to Turban and killed and captured and took the booty in large quantities and the King and fought at Halban and reached Ma'ad and took booty and prisoners, and after that, conquered Omro bin al-Munzir. (Abraha) appointed the son (of Omro) as the ruler and returned from Hal Ban (halban) with the power of the Almighty in the month of Zu A'allan in the year sixty-two and six hundred."

As one can clearly see, there is no mention of Mecca or Elephants for that matter and actually ended very badly for the Arabs as Abraha was victorious over all the Arab tribes he came up against.

A far greater problem for the Islamic traditions is that the Sabean date on this inscription is 552 A.D. According to the most recent scholarship, Abraha died in 553 A.D. or shortly thereafter – but, according to the Muslims, Muhammad was born in 570 A.D. So, if we want to believe the Muslim traditions concerning Abraha, we have to push Muhammad's birth back 15, 16 or even 18 years. This has enormous consequences for much of early Islamic history. If Muhammad was born 18 years earlier, when did Muhammad begin to receive revelations? When did the Hijrah occur? When did Muhammad die? When did various battles take place, and when did the first four Caliphs reign? This is potentially messing up everything that Muslims believe about their early history. Moreover, this may cast doubt on much of the Islamic Traditions. The accuracy of their so-called "Sahih" Hadiths cannot be trusted because the "chains of transmission" may now be broken - most events in the life of Muhammad has been pushed back 18 years and gaps are bound to open up somewhere in the chains between Muhammad and the time of Bukhari, Muslim, and the other collectors.

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General Discussion / Islam not for me song
« on: July 10, 2010, 12:23:17 AM »

Wondering if any has heard this song. It's quite well done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dsd_79XPPc

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I have read how you mention that the Ishmaelites have "dissapeared". Can you assist in defining how this came about ?.

Did they actually dissapear all together...ie extinct/died out, or have the descendants of Ishmael branched off to such an extent that the waters are to muddy to follow them or who they are today ?.

God said that he would bless Ishmael and make him a great nation, although we all know he has no part of the promise for Israel. But he did say he would prosper greatly and be un-numbered like sand (or something like that).

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General Discussion / Hi there
« on: April 09, 2010, 09:22:45 PM »

Hi, have been registered for a while but this is my first post. This forum is an amazing source of info, especially on the falsehood of Islam. Have been studying Islam for a bit and pretty much have come to the same conclusions as mentioned in the threads here. Well done and congrats on compiling an authoritive well based fact sheet so to speak on Islam and it's origins.

Regards
Phill

Canberra, Australia

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