Author Topic: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding  (Read 70652 times)

Peter

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Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« on: December 01, 2010, 11:56:36 AM »
Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding.

Isn't it peculiar that they can say they believe this, yet when they come to this forum they act as though "Allah" should be as simple to understand as could be conceived by the mind of an illiterate 7th century southwest Arabian desert dweller.

That they can't even afford to try to begin to understand the mystery of God solely because of Mohammed.
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

resistingrexmundi

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2010, 12:05:49 PM »
Frankly nothing surprises me about my encouters with them anymore. I have yet to have a single muslim explain to me why it is that we as humans are so complex that we are made of 3 parts (mind, body, spirit) that have three distinct functions (process, facilitate, inform) and yet God would not be even more complex.
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2012, 09:45:45 AM »
Brother resistingrexmundi, no muslim can answer that. Because muslims think Creator is much more complex than the any created one can ever imagine.  ;)

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2012, 10:19:09 AM »
Hi Bornao, and welcome to the forum! :)

Brother resistingrexmundi, no muslim can answer that. Because muslims think Creator is much more complex than the any created one can ever imagine.  ;)

Then you can answer, and you did answer. You agreed with him that God is even more complex than man who is composed of 3 parts. I realize you addressed this to resisting, so just let me know if you want me to defer to him.

I'm sure we all agree that the only way we can know about God is through the way he revealed Himself to us. Otherwise - so you don't have to wait for him to answer if you want to chat now - my question for you is, do you believe "Allah" has a spirit?

Sura 32.9: But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!

Sura 15.29: "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2012, 12:24:57 PM »
Thanks for the nice welcome. :) I am open to all friendly comments. And yes, I belive in Creator. ‘Allah’ in the quran, ‘Elah’ in the Bible or call Lord or use any good names you want.
And my answer no, Creator has THE spirit, not has A spirit. Don’t get me wrong, I am not trying to correct you, but this is the answer. 
Please, go on...

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2012, 02:59:00 PM »
Thanks for the nice welcome. :) I am open to all friendly comments. And yes, I belive in Creator. ‘Allah’ in the quran, ‘Elah’ in the Bible or call Lord or use any good names you want.
And my answer no, Creator has THE spirit, not has A spirit. Don’t get me wrong, I am not trying to correct you, but this is the answer. 
Please, go on...

THE spirit is fine with me - even better. It's nice we begin in agreement. We both believe in two parts of the Godhead. God and His Spirit. Jews do too.

Exd 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Are you familiar with this passage when God manifest, or revealed Himself, to Moses through a burning bush?

Exodus 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, [even] to Horeb.   2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed.   3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.   4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here [am] I.   5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest [is] holy ground.   6 Moreover he said, I [am] the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=3&v=1&t=KJV#1

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2012, 02:15:57 AM »
It’s nice to have an agreement, but we couldn’t have. Creator is much more complex than we can ever imagine. Let's say we are talking about the sun. In the middle of the daytime it’s everywhere. It’s THE light of the sun. Light is not a thing, and you can’t count, and it is not a part of the sun. Even we can say it’s a part of the sun, we can’t say the parts of the sun is sun and the sunlight. I mean, we can’t say sun= sun+sunlight. And we are talkin about the Creator which is not a thing, which has no atoms, no protons etc… It’s is everwhere and it’s surrounds every created ones. I mean we can’t even say Creator is one. In Quran Surah Ihlas 112/1,  it says, “Kul huvallahu ehad. Not, “Kul huvallahu vahd.”  Vahd means, one. Ehad word does not have an exact meaning in English, but the closer meaning is, one and only. I can see you are a clever person and I am sure you can understand what I mean when you think about it. Sorry for writing to much.  :) Sometimes my fingers dosen't know where to stop.

And my answer to your question is, yes, I am familiar with the passage.

Please go on...

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2012, 05:46:14 AM »
It’s nice to have an agreement, but we couldn’t have. Creator is much more complex than we can ever imagine.

I agree.

Let's say we are talking about the sun. In the middle of the daytime it’s everywhere. It’s THE light of the sun. Light is not a thing, and you can’t count, and it is not a part of the sun. Even we can say it’s a part of the sun, we can’t say the parts of the sun is sun and the sunlight. I mean, we can’t say sun= sun+sunlight. And we are talkin about the Creator which is not a thing, which has no atoms, no protons etc… It’s is everwhere and it’s surrounds every created ones. I mean we can’t even say Creator is one. In Quran Surah Ihlas 112/1,  it says, “Kul huvallahu ehad. Not, “Kul huvallahu vahd.”  Vahd means, one. Ehad word does not have an exact meaning in English, but the closer meaning is, one and only.

Same as in the Gospel: Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

I can see you are a clever person and I am sure you can understand what I mean when you think about it. Sorry for writing to much.  :) Sometimes my fingers dosen't know where to stop.

And my answer to your question is, yes, I am familiar with the passage.

Please go on...

I'm going to get a little bit long here myself, but just so things are as clear as I can make them. In that passage God revealed Himself to Moses through a burning bush. It didn't make Him any less God, and God didn't stop being God to turn into a burning bush instead, it's just a way He chose to reveal Himself to Moses, when He wanted to communicate with Him.

Are you familiar with the Genesis 18 passage in which the Lord appeared to Abraham?

Genesis 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

Checking Strong's definitions
http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

And the LORD
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
03068 Y@hovah {yeh-ho-vaw'}
from 01961; TWOT - 484a; n pr dei
AV - LORD 6510, GOD 4, JEHOVAH 4, variant 1; 6519
Jehovah = "the existing One"
1) the proper name of the one true God
1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136

"LORD" translated from the Hebrew, "Jehovah" the "existing One", that is, God Himself "appeared" to Abraham.
Before the Jews surrendered to a first century doctrine in which men declared that the name Yahweh was too sacred to say or write, the tetragrammaton YHWH occurred in this spot, and in 6,827 other places in Hebrew scripture. "YHWH" is the name of God.

2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

Three "men" stood by him.

men
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
0582 'enowsh {en-oshe'}
from 0605; TWOT - 136a; n m
AV - man 520, certain 10, husbands 3, some 3, merchantmen 2,
persons 2, misc 24; 564
1) man, mortal man, person, mankind
1a) of an individual
1b) men (collective)
1c) man, mankind

So Abraham "bowed himself toward the ground".....

3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

My Lord
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
0136 'Adonay {ad-o-noy'}
am emphatic form of 0113; TWOT - 27b; n m
AV - Lord 431, lord 2, God 1; 434
1) my lord, lord
1a) of men
1b) of God
2) Lord - title, spoken in place of Yahweh in Jewish display of reverence

As in the prior case with the name Jehovah substituting for Yahweh, the substitute title "Adonay" is used in this spot. It can mean THE Lord or lower case lord as in master. Whether Yahweh or Adonay occurred in the original Hebrew is obviously a moot point considering the context makes obvious who Abraham is meeting with.

3 And said, My Lord, {Adonay} if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

Some suggest that the "man" in our passage was an angel but are we to believe that Abraham thought himself a "servant" of an angel, rather than Yahweh, particularly considering all the direct contact Abraham had with Yahweh? No. Nor do the titles used in this passage allow it.
Abraham continues....

4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: 5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.

Water is not only fetched so these men can wash their feet, but Abraham offers the men food, and they accept.

8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set [it] before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

And so these men - one unquestionably being Yahweh Himself - did eat. Later in the passage we read...

22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. {Jehovah (Yaweh)} 23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

So who has the power to destroy a city of men?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that [are] therein? 25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Who was the "man", that Abraham recognized as God, that is "the Judge of all the earth"? The same one that dined.

26 And the LORD {Jehovah (Yaweh)} said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

Who had the power and authority to spare Sodom? The answer is obvious. Abraham did not see God, but Abraham did have a face to face meeting with Yahewh as He manifest, or revealed Himself, through the flesh of a man. God was no less God, and He didn't turn into a man instead of God, it was just a way He chose to show Himself to Abraham.

Here's a good study tool if you want to check Strong's definitions to see which original word was translated, and much more: http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2012, 09:03:40 AM »
 Some suggest that the "man" in our passage was an angel but are we to believe that Abraham thought himself a "servant" of an angel, rather than Yahweh, particularly considering all the direct contact Abraham had with Yahweh? No. Nor do the titles used in this passage allow it.
Abraham continues....

Quran says, they were the Messengers. Here is the translation of that part.

69.   There came Our Messengers to Abraham with glad tidings. They said, "Peace!" He answered, "Peace!" and hastened to entertain them with a roasted calf.

70.   But when he saw their hands not reaching towards the (meal), he felt some mistrust of them, and conceived a fear of them. They said: "Fear not: We have been sent against the people of Lut."

71.   And his wife was standing (there), and she laughed: But We gave her glad tidings of Isaac, and after him, of Jacob.

72.   She said: "Alas for me! shall I bear a child, seeing I am an old woman, and my husband here is an old man? That would indeed be a wonderful thing!"

73.   They said: "Dost thou wonder at Allah's decree? The grace of Allah and His blessings on you, o ye people of the house! for He is indeed worthy of all praise, full of all glory!"

74.   When fear had passed from (the mind of) Abraham and the glad tidings had reached him, he began to plead with Us for L�t's people.

75.   For Abraham was, without doubt, forbearing (of faults), compassionate, and given to penitence.

76.   O Abraham! Seek not this. The decree of thy Lord hath gone forth: for them there cometh a chastisement that cannot be turned back!

77.   When Our Messengers came to Lut, he was grieved on their account and felt himself powerless (to protect) them. He said: "This is a distressful day."

78.   And his people came rushing towards him, and they had been long in the habit of practicing abominations. He said: "O my People! Here are my daughters: they are purer for you (if ye marry)! Now fear Allah, and cover me not with disgrace about my guests! Is there not among you a single right-minded man?"

79.   They said: "Well dost thou know we have no need of thy daughters: indeed thou knowest quite well what we want!"

80.   He said: "Would that I had power to suppress you or that I could betake myself to some powerful support."

81.   (The Messengers) said: "O Lut! We are Messengers from thy Lord! By no means shall they reach thee! now travel with thy family while yet a part of the night remains, and let not any of you look back: but thy wife (will remain behind): To her will happen what happens to the people. Morning is their time appointed. Isn't it the morning close?"

This translation is pretty close to Quran. As you see they were only messenger of the Creator. They looked like men and Hz.Abraham was the servant of the massage, not servant of them. He stopped arguing with them as soon as he understood that they were only carrying the message of the Creator.
      

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2012, 02:53:38 PM »
Because of the hard snow and work I couldn’t have change to finish my comment. If you excuse me I would like to comment tomarrow.

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2012, 06:54:30 PM »
This translation is pretty close to Quran. As you see they were only messenger of the Creator.

At least we can agree that one account is necessarily false. Thus either Moses was a false prophet, or Muhammad who came along 2,000 years later and contradicted him, was a false prophet.

Either the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind, as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses, that his people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years is false.

Or lone Muhammad's stand-alone 23 year 7th century record is false.

As you already know this passage isn't the only difference, since 600 years after the crucifixion of Christ Muhammad professed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel, as revealed through the apostles, disciples and witnesses of the Messiah in the Gospel.

Let's begin investigating the differences by exploring the evidence. The archaeological evidence ever increasingly confirms the scriptures to be a reliable record of ancient history (we have a section devoted to this that is just beginning to be populated with threads).
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=68.0

Ancient Arabian towns are also well attested in the historical and archaeological records of Arabia, even including tiny towns that came and went within a couple centuries before the Christian era.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1132.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1138.0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Towns_in_Saudi_Arabia

Please present some historical and archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca existed prior to the 4th century AD.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2012, 07:46:17 PM »
Because of the hard snow and work I couldn’t have change to finish my comment. If you excuse me I would like to comment tomarrow.

No need to even mention it. The nice thing is we can come an go as our schedules allow, and the conversation will be available for us to continue, in days or weeks - barring any more Islamist cyber terror attacks.

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2012, 10:07:20 AM »
At least we can agree that one account is necessarily false. Thus either Moses was a false prophet, or Muhammad who came along 2,000 years later and contradicted him, was a false prophet.



First of all, yes, Allah talked to Hz.Moses. And yes, talking to man dose not make Allah less or something bad, it showes how much valuable Hz.Moses is. (Not was, Peace be upon him, Hz.Moses is stil valuable and will be for ever.)
If you are interested, here is the translation of Surah Taha 20/9-18 (It is a translation, not Quran.)

Starts like this…

9.   Has the story of Moses reached thee?
   
10.   Behold, he saw a fire: So he said to his family, "Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; perhaps I can bring you some burning brand therefrom, or find some guidance at the fire."

11.   But when he came to the fire, he was called: "O Moses!
   
12.   "Verily I am thy Lord! therefore put off thy shoes: thou art in the sacred valley Tuw�.

13.   "I have chosen thee: listen, then, to the inspiration (given to thee).

14.   "Verily, I am Allah. There is no god but I: So serve thou Me (only), and establish regular prayer for My remembrance.

15.   "Verily the Hour is coming - I have almost kept it hidden - for every soul to receive its reward by the measure of its Endeavor.

16.   "Therefore let not such as believe not therein but follow their own lusts, divert thee therefrom, lest thou perish!"..

17.   "And what is that in thy right hand, O Moses?"

18.   He said, "It is my rod: on it I lean; with it I beat down fodder for my flocks; and in it I find other uses."

…and goes on…

Translation of Surah Woman 4/164

164.   Of some messengers We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses Allah spoke direct;-


I can give more examples of this, but non of them says Allah taked the shape of a man, an animal or a tree or something else.

Moses (Peace be upon him) was not a false prophet, just like Muhammed (Peace be upon him.)
The subject was about the Creator, if you want to change the subject to the books that’s okay form me. I can give lots of evidence which proofs that Quran is not a word of a human being. Like Surah Ya seen 36/39-40

39.   And the Moon,- We have measured for her stations (to traverse) till she returns like the old (and withered) lower part of a date-stalk.
 
Check this link: http://www.bpastro.org/index.php?page=what-if-anything-is-standing-still you can easily see the orbit of the moon is not round.

40.   It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).

Does Sun swims? Do they know that at that time, in 600? With which telescope can they see that?

At Surah Cow 2/29

29.   It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Then He turned to the heavens, and skys made them into seven layers; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

At Surah Nuh 71/15

15.   "'See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens, sky one above another,

At Surah The Scatterers 51/7

7.   By the Sky with (its) numerous Paths,

I can go and on… How did they know that sky has layers? Interesting isn’t it?

At Surah The Companies 39/5

5.   He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law): each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power - He Who forgives again and again?

If you check in Quran you will see the word, “yukevviru” Which means covering something round. In the years 1600 Church was going to hang Galileo Galilei because of saying the “The World is round.”

At Surah The Prophets 21/32

32.   And We have made the skies, as a canopy well guarded: yet do they turn away from the Signs which these things (point to)!

Well guarded skies… they must realy have good telescopes.

At Surah The Iron 57/25 gökler

25.   We sent aforetime our messengers with Clear Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance (of Right and Wrong), that men may stand forth in justice; and We sent down Iron, in which is great might, as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His messengers: For Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might.

Did you know our world, even our star, the Sun can’t produce iron and it’s out of our solar system. 

At Surah The Night Comer 86/1-4

1.   By the Sky and the Night-Visitant (therein);-
 
2.   And what will explain to thee what the Night-Visitant is?-
 
3.   (It is) the Star of piercing brightness;-
 
4.   There is no soul but has a protector over it.

Check what the pustar is.


Surah The Covering Up 81/17-18

17.   And the Night as it dissipates;
 


18.   And the Dawn as it breathes away.   

How did the know the nature starts breathing in morning?

At Surah The Prophets 21/31

31.   And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with them, and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: that they may find their way.


At Surah The Rock 15/22

22.   And We send the fecundating winds, then cause the rain to descend from the sky, therewith providing you with water (in abundance), though ye are not the guardians of its stores.


Firm mountains and fecundating winds? At that time somebody most realy have fun with these. But now a days we can’t. Check your geography lessons.

Trust me. I can give many, many examples that proofs Quran is not a word of a man.

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2012, 10:13:08 AM »
Ya. Quran's "miracles"
http://www.islam-watch.org/Amarkhan/Miracles-of-Quran-Exposed.htm
Pure taqiyyah perpetrated by abusing an honest scientist William W Hay on Quran phony miracles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7znvH95HZVI

Does Sun swims?

Apparently it would have to learn how to pretty quickly since it sets in a pool of murky water:
Surah18.85 One (such) way he followed, 86 Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
and ants talk
Quran 27.17 And before Solomon were marshalled his hosts,- of Jinns and men and birds, and they were all kept in order and ranks.18 At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."
http://www.petewaldo.com/fables_fantasies.htm

Moses (Peace be upon him) was not a false prophet, just like Muhammed (Peace be upon him.)

Sorry. You can't have it both ways. Moses was inspired to write the account of Yahweh speaking to Abraham in the form of a man. Abraham referred to the man using the NAME of the ONE true God of the scriptures YHWH - NOT as some "messenger" as you suggest. Nor did a "messenger" have the power to destroy Sodom.
So your post necessarily indicates you believe Moses was a false prophet, because you believe Muhammad instead of Moses.

If Muhammad was not a false prophet then ALL of the prophets as revealed in the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind were false - including Jesus.

Matthew 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, 18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, 19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.

There is no subject we can discuss that is more important than Muhammad's/your denial of the whole subject of the Gospel, and rejection of the blood that would save you. Jesus was crucified just as prophesied by Jesus Himself in the prior verses, as well as by Old Testament prophets.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

Nothing else matters as long as you deny the subject of the Gospel.


Trust me. I can give many, many examples that proofs Quran is not a word of a man.

Then rather than ignore my post, and my request, why don't you begin by providing us with some archaeological and historical evidence, that suggests that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD? If you can find no evidence, then simply admit that there is no such evidence available, and we can move forward.

Regarding the Quran not being the word of men, Muhammad even tacitly admitted that Jabr helped him write much of the Quran - just as the Quraish rightly accused him of - when Muhammad added a sura to deny that fact in a transparent attempt at damage control.

Sura 16.103 We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.

As if Muhammad could have spent all those long hours with a foreigner - Jabr - if Jabr hadn't spoken Arabic as a second language.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=452.0

Authors of the Quran:
http://inthenameofallah.org/Authors%20of%20the%20Quran.html

There is no point in quoting further from a book filled with blasphemy that directly contradicts the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind, until you can show good reason that we should reject ALL of the prophets and witnesses as revealed in the scriptures, and the whole subject of the Gospel, to follow Muhammad.
Again, please start with historical evidence that suggests that Mecca existed prior to the 4th century AD.

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2012, 11:04:09 AM »
The historical record contained in scripture, that is confirmed by the archaeological evidence, tells us that Abraham's travels were in the opposite direction of, and never within 1200 kilometers of, where Mecca was eventually settled in the 4th century AD.
After you present historical and archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD, could you:

1. please explain to us how and why Abraham wandered across 1200 kilometers of harsh, barren, desert with his wife Sarah's handmaiden Hagar, from the home Abraham shared with his wife Sarah and Isaac in Hebron, to where Mecca was eventually built, a thousand years before the historical record tells us the first caravan was able to make the trip along the Red Sea?

2. While you are at it perhaps you can also explain how Ishmael wandered across the same 1200 kilometers of harsh, barren, untraveled, unexplored desert, in time to help Isaac bury Abraham near his home in Hebron.




resistingrexmundi

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2012, 01:51:32 PM »
Quote
In the years 1600 Church was going to hang Galileo Galilei because of saying the “The World is round.”

The issue wasn't the roundness of the earth it was the centrality of the earth as opposed to a heliocentric model of the solar system. Furthermore, I would not throw stones in a glass house when according to Muhammad the sun sets in a muddy pool. And the Bible already covered the issue of the earth's round shape.

Isa 40:22    It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2012, 02:30:11 PM »
Quote
In the years 1600 Church was going to hang Galileo Galilei because of saying the “The World is round.”

The issue wasn't the roundness of the earth it was the centrality of the earth as opposed to a heliocentric model of the solar system. Furthermore, I would not throw stones in a glass house when according to Muhammad the sun sets in a muddy pool. And the Bible already covered the issue of the earth's round shape.

Isa 40:22    It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

And that from a guy in perhaps the most anti-intellectual organization in world history, that remains so to this day, as evidenced by the madrassas.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=814.0

The anti-intellectualism of the Roman Church is indeed one of the parallels it shared with Islam.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=512.0
"In an age of barbarism the popes led the pack, in an age of enlightenment they trailed the field." - Peter de Rosa -  Vicars of Christ

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2012, 05:32:22 AM »
[Sorry. You can't have it both ways. Moses was inspired to write the account of Yahweh speaking to Abraham manifest as a man. So your prior post indicates you believe Moses was a liar because you believe Muhammad.]

At translation of Surah The Cow 2/285

285.   The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."


Yes, I can’t have both ways. But, there is only one way and muslims belive all the prophets of Creator is carring the same message. No muslim is a muslim if he or she says Moses(Peace be upon him) or Jesus(puh) or Nuh(puh) or Lut(puh) or Abraham(puh) (or any other prophets) was a liar. All of the prophets of the Creator are valuable for us. The point is the message which the bring has been changed. Even if you take the translation of Quran as Quran the message is not he same. If you can speak an other languge other than English chose a song and try to translate it. You can’t clearly succeed.


[If Muhammad was not a false prophet then ALL of the prophets of the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind were false - including Jesus.]


False? Who said that?


At Surah The Food 5/47

47.   Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.


At Surah The Family of Imran 3/113

113.   Not all of them are alike: Among the People of the Book are a portion that stand (for the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.


The People of the book means: The people who call themselves Christian and Jewish.
Buy the way

159.   Of the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth.



You are responsible of what you believe. You are thinking about the nonmuslim people. What about the others who hasn’t heard of any religion. In Quran Allah says, the ones who hasn’t heard the truth is no resposible.


[Matthew 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, 18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, 19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm]



Surah Marium (Mery) 19/33

33.   "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!



Sometimes translations are really guiding wrong. Watch the sentence, “The day that I die.” I am sure he is still alive. And I am sure he will come and guide us again.


[Quote from: Bornao on Today at 07:07:20 AM
Trust me. I can give many, many examples that proofs Quran is not a word of a man.

Then rather than ignore my last post, and my request, why don't you begin by providing us with some archaeological and historical evidence, that suggests that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD?]


Sorry for that. I am just trying to stick on the subject. Didn’t mean to ignore you. At that link, if it says Mecca existed before the 4th century and want met o comment this. My answer is yes without reading them. Mecca existed before the 4th century. Even the Kaba existed before 4th century. (Before there was a city.) Here is Surah The Caw 2/127


127.   And remember Abraham and Ismail raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing."


96.   The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all the worlds.

The house which Adem has build for praying.

I think, you are asking how did Hz.Mumammed understand the language of Jabr. Is that right?
The answer is so easy that I am not sure I get the question right. If I got it wrong forgive me. Here is the answer: Jabr, it is Gabriel in English. Gabriel is the angel of vahiys. The angel who was created or who was charged for carrying the words of the Creator. Which language do you thing the angels are using? English? Spanish, Arabic? I thing your answer will be, “No.” The language they use is different from the human beings uses. But trust me, if an angel talk to you, you will understand. If that happens, I can’t imagine you saying to angel, “I have no idea what you are talking about.” 

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2012, 05:42:58 AM »
I tougt, we were going to comment one by one. Please be patient. Let me respond and than make a comment. Now my commet is under yours which I haven't read. :)

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2012, 06:18:29 AM »
I tougt, we were going to comment one by one.

By that do you mean one person or one topic?

Please be patient. Let me respond and than make a comment.

When you joined the forum you agreed to:

"When you begin, post a thread or comment, or even a couple, trying to include just a point or two, then wait for a response, and then reply to responses. In other words don't just spam away while ignoring replies of other members to your posts."

Way back at this post
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2117.msg12444#msg12444
I requested that you
"Please present some historical and archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca existed prior to the 4th century AD."

Please revisit that post and please respond to that request now, before posting anything else.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2117.msg12444#msg12444

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2012, 07:14:54 AM »
Ya. Quran's "miracles"
http://www.islam-watch.org/Amarkhan/Miracles-of-Quran-Exposed.htm
Pure taqiyyah perpetrated by abusing an honest scientist William W Hay on Quran phony miracles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7znvH95HZV
I checked the link. The funny part which I have been saying from the begining every book, even songs has translatin problems. I will only commed the first one which I saw. At surah The Cow 2/29

At Surah Cow 2/29

29.   It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Then He turned to the heavens, and skys made them into seven layers; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

Ask any Arab what the word seven exactly in your language. He will not say, “seb” is just a number. It is also means “lots off.”
So can’t read all that link. If you have any questions about it ask me directly. I would be happy to answer if I know the answer.




Does Sun swims?

Apparently it would have to learn how to pretty quickly since it sets in a pool of murky water:
Surah18.85 One (such) way he followed, 86 Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
and ants talk
[/quote]
Wrong Surah number, but that’s ok. It looks meaningless in English. (Funny buy the way.) But it’s not meaningless in Arabic. The point he stopped at the end of his journey to the east, (which he doesn’t want to go any further) what he saw the sun is setting at he horizon line of a murky water. It’s meaningless going any further if you see that. By the way the word murky is not exactly right there. It’s more like “muddy.” Any way…
Another point here the sun can also mean, “The truthness.” Like: he stopped at the point where he saw the mud is trying to cover the truthness.” If you go on reading that part you can get it.



Quran 27.17 And before Solomon were marshalled his hosts,- of Jinns and men and birds, and they were all kept in order and ranks.18 At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."
http://www.petewaldo.com/fables_fantasies.htm

Don’t get me wrong, but I am really a busy person. I can’t read all that links. Please be kind to write your short comment. And than I answer it.

Moses (Peace be upon him) was not a false prophet, just like Muhammed (Peace be upon him.)

Sorry. You can't have it both ways. Moses was inspired to write the account of Yahweh speaking to Abraham in the form of a man. Abraham referred to the man using the NAME of the ONE true God of the scriptures YHWH - NOT as some "messenger" as you suggest. Nor did a "messenger" have the power to destroy Sodom.
So your post necessarily indicates you believe Moses was a false prophet, because you believe Muhammad instead of Moses.

If Muhammad was not a false prophet then ALL of the prophets as revealed in the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind were false - including Jesus.

Matthew 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, 18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, 19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.

There is no subject we can discuss that is more important than Muhammad's/your denial of the whole subject of the Gospel, and rejection of the blood that would save you. Jesus was crucified just as prophesied by Jesus Himself in the prior verses, as well as by Old Testament prophets.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

Nothing else matters as long as you deny the subject of the Gospel.


Trust me. I can give many, many examples that proofs Quran is not a word of a man.

Then rather than ignore my post, and my request, why don't you begin by providing us with some archaeological and historical evidence, that suggests that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD? If you can find no evidence, then simply admit that there is no such evidence available, and we can move forward.

Yes, Mecca existed before the 4th century.
Surah The Caw 2/127


127.   And remember Abraham and Ismail raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing."


96.   The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all the worlds.

The house which Adem has build for praying.


Regarding the Quran not being the word of men, Muhammad even tacitly admitted that Jabr helped him write much of the Quran - just as the Quraish rightly accused him of - when Muhammad added a sura to deny that fact in a transparent attempt at damage control.

Sura 16.103 We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.

As if Muhammad could have spent all those long hours with a foreigner - Jabr - if Jabr hadn't spoken Arabic as a second language.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=452.0

Authors of the Quran:
http://inthenameofallah.org/Authors%20of%20the%20Quran.html

There is no point in quoting further from a book filled with blasphemy that directly contradicts the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind, until you can show good reason that we should reject ALL of the prophets and witnesses as revealed in the scriptures, and the whole subject of the Gospel, to follow Muhammad.
Again, please start with historical evidence that suggests that Mecca existed prior to the 4th century AD.
I commented those ones. If you think I missed any, please remind me.

Please read inside of it. It looks all looks like a quote. (I think I got a keybord problem or something…)

[/quote]


Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2012, 07:28:06 AM »
I tougt, we were going to comment one by one.

By that do you mean one person or one topic?

Please be patient. Let me respond and than make a comment.

When you joined the forum you agreed to:

"When you begin, post a thread or comment, or even a couple, trying to include just a point or two, then wait for a response, and then reply to responses. In other words don't just spam away while ignoring replies of other members to your posts."

Way back at this post
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2117.msg12444#msg12444
I requested that you
"Please present some historical and archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca existed prior to the 4th century AD."

Please revisit that post and please respond to that request now, before posting anything else.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2117.msg12444#msg12444

All I mean if you want me to comment, please slow down. It’s just a request. If you don’t any answers from me, go a head, rule as ever you like. I am not here to judge you, or trying to convert you or something like that. I am just chating and giving the anwers which I know.

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2012, 07:32:25 AM »
Yes, Mecca existed before the 4th century.
Surah The Caw 2/127

127.   And remember Abraham and Ismail raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing."

96.   The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all the worlds.

The house which Adem has build for praying.

I'm sorry, but that is not historical or archaeological evidence. That is parroting an illiterate 7th century SW Arabian desert dweller.

The ENTIRETY of what you believe about any pre-4th century Mecca, is a FICTION, that was CREATED in the 7th to 10th centuries AD by a bunch of SW Arabian desert dwellers - WITHOUT REFERENCE to any ACTUAL historical record from before the 5th century AD. How did those men know what went on thousands of years before Muhammad? Study in the Quraish pagan's "Library of Mecca"? That's why Muhammad's followers can only refer to that fiction as "tradition" - because it has nothing to do with the ACTUAL HISTORICAL RECORD.

What you have been taught to believe is a LIE that is EXACTLY CONTRARY to the scriptures of the ONE true God of the Jews and Christians - Yahweh. A lie that is an epic failure whether considered on the basis scripture, history, archaeology and geography.

Now please present some historical or archaeological EVIDENCE in your next reply. Why don't you try starting with a Yahoo search like - history archaeology mecca -
Or visit my website here: http://www.historyofmecca.com
http://www.historyofmecca.com/historical_claims.htm

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2012, 07:40:57 AM »
If you want some help with quoting I explain how I do it at the following link. Also don't be afraid to break a post down into several posts, and address point by point.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=39.0

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2012, 08:11:08 AM »
If you want some help with quoting I explain how I do it at the following link. Also don't be afraid to break a post down into several posts, and address point by point.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=39.0

Thank you are so polite. I am in Turkey now, but in French we comment one by one. And I am sorry I got you wrong. I touht you were saying Mecca existed before the 4th century. (that is what I belive, too.) Now, if you want any historical evidence about Mecca I can’t give any. We are talking about the times of Adem. I also can’t proof Adam has been existed. (I mean historicaly) I mean it’s a long long times ago. And even I can proof it or you proof it, what’s bout it?

(Please, please short answers)