Author Topic: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding  (Read 70651 times)

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2012, 03:21:05 PM »

[Quote from: Bornao on Today at 07:07:20 AM
Trust me. I can give many, many examples that proofs Quran is not a word of a man.

That couldn't be more false. All you presented was nonsensical "science" in the Quran that is all exposed on the link I provided.
Not a single person ever heard Gabriel or "Allah" give Muhammad a single "revelation". Yet you must reject all of the prophets and witnesses as revealed in the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind to follow Muhammad alone.

Then rather than ignore my last post, and my request, why don't you begin by providing us with some archaeological and historical evidence, that suggests that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD?][/color]

Sorry for that. I am just trying to stick on the subject. Didn’t mean to ignore you. At that link, if it says Mecca existed before the 4th century and want met o comment this. My answer is yes without reading them. Mecca existed before the 4th century. Even the Kaba existed before 4th century. (Before there was a city.) Here is Surah The Caw 2/127


127.   And remember Abraham and Ismail raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing."


96.   The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all the worlds.

The house which Adem has build for praying.

I think, you are asking how did Hz.Mumammed understand the language of Jabr. Is that right?
The answer is so easy that I am not sure I get the question right. If I got it wrong forgive me. Here is the answer: Jabr, it is Gabriel in English. Gabriel is the angel of vahiys.

Jabr was an ex-"christian" neighbor of Muhammad that Muhammad got much of his "revelation" from. So frequently did Muhammad get a "revelation" after a long chat with Jabr, that the Quraish nicknamed Jabr "holy spirit". Please visit that thread on the inspiration of the Quran.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=452.0

The angel who was created or who was charged for carrying the words of the Creator.

Even Muhammad knew that it was a demon that met him in that cave and tried to choke the life out of him three times. His wife Khadijah talked him out of his demon theory, but she wasn't even there.
2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Which language do you thing the angels are using? English? Spanish, Arabic? I thing your answer will be, “No.” The language they use is different from the human beings uses. But trust me, if an angel talk to you, you will understand. If that happens, I can’t imagine you saying to angel, “I have no idea what you are talking about.”

Trust me. Angels of the Lord don't go around making people feel like they are having the life choked out of them.

Muhammad Thought the Spirit in Cave Hira Was a Demon (DQ1-5) - Coptic priest Zakaria Botrous
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpsWnbApBNw

What Did Mohammed Do In the Cave Hira? (DQ1-3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNbzevID550

Muhammad Already Knew "Gabriel" Was a Demon (DQ-9)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk0dQCpglb4

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2012, 03:47:44 PM »
(I think it is the city Harran, in Turkey) No matter where it is, even it is in the middle of the North Pole I would say yes, he can make journey. We are talking about a prophet; who and whose family has showen miracles.

xxxxxxxxxxI was talking about Hz. Abraham(PBH) (The miracles of him and his suns exc...)



We even belive the cursed devil can travel araund the world faster then light. Can Creator's prophet travel? Yes. (Without a doubt)

You mean you believe in Muhammad's preposterous UNWITNESSED tale of riding on a flying donkey-mule from Mecca to Jerusalem to "paradise" and back to Mecca by morning. He even lied about praying the the temple in Jerusalem that had been torn down 500 years before Muhammad told his lie.
http://www.petewaldo.com/mohammeds_night_journey.htm

What riding on a flying donkey? Where do you find these kind of things? ;D Probably from a Jewish source.

I said flying donkey-mule. I got that from the Quran. Muhammad described his buraq (like the one the fabled Zoroastrian prophet rode) as being in size between a donkey and mule.

Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0309:
It is narrated on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I was brought al-Buraq Who is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place his hoof a distance equal to the range of vision. I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets. I entered the mosque and prayed two rak'ahs in it, and then came out and Gabriel brought me a vessel of wine and a vessel of milk.

The problem is that temple had been torn down 500 years before Muhammad lied about tying his buraq to it and praying in it. Yet it was decades before the Al-Aqsa mosque was built.

Here's a forum thread on the subject of Muhammad's night journey.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0
And on the mythical "buraq".
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1713.0

Because The tample which you are talkin about is Kubbetu's Sahra, not Mescid-i Aksa.

Surah, The Israelites 17/1
1.    Glory to (Allah) Who did take His Servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).

In the Quran, (not in translation) you can see the word Mescid-i Aksa.  :D

If you mean Al-Aqsa it did not exist until many decades after Muhammad died. In fact the historical record tells us that at the time that Muhammad lied about praying in a temple on the temple mount, the temple mount was being used as a garbage dump.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount#Sassanid_vassal_state_period

No...it is my keyboar I think. I couldn't make quote again. I put some x's. Sorry for that.


Brother, tell me the Surah and ayet number where, "flying donkey-mule." or "burak." passes. Than I answer. I have no idea who, "Sahih Muslim" or what, "Book 001, Number 0309:" is. Who ever he is, I can only give answers from the Quran. (insallah) I think it's Al-Aqsa in Enghish. Watch the word Ayet which I gave you. It dose not say IN the mescid-i Al-Aksa. Watch the word precincts. You get it? Translations are killing me. :)

temple on the temple mount? What is this? Brodher I would like to talk about Quran, not histor or some thing else.

By the way. As ı was writing these you posted 10 messages in a seccond. Is that normal?

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2012, 03:59:39 PM »
Brother, tell me the Surah and ayet number where, "flying donkey-mule." or "burak." passes. Than I answer. I have no idea who, "Sahih Muslim" or what, "Book 001, Number 0309:" is. Who ever he is, I can only give answers from the Quran.

That is from the Hadith, which are second only to the Quran. They are collections of things that Muhammad is supposed to have said. Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari are the two most respected collections of Muhammad's life in Islam. Without them nobody could have ever made any sense out of the Quran.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2860.0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith

(insallah) I think it's Al-Aqsa in Enghish. Watch the word Ayet which I gave you. It dose not say IN the mescid-i Al-Aksa. Watch the word precincts. You get it? Translations are killing me. :)

temple on the temple mount? What is this?

It is the mount where the one true God Yahweh had His people build a temple to him. Solomon's temple which was destroyed and later replaced by Herod's temple which was destroyed because Jesus' people are His temple today.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm
Wikipedia on temple mount
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount
more
http://www.historyofmecca.com/#temple
The temple mount is where the Al-Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock reside today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_Rock

Brodher I would like to talk about Quran, not histor or some thing else.

What I have shown you is there is no historical, archaeological or geographical reason to have anything to do with the Quran. What I went on to do was show you why there is no scriptural basis on which to believe the Quran, by answering your old post.
The FACT IS that Muhammad professed the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.
There is nothing more important than understanding this.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2748.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2749.0

By the way. As ı was writing these you posted 10 messages in a seccond. Is that normal?

No it's the first time I've ever done it. Sorry, I didn't see you were online and I thought you left for the day so I took the opportunity to post them so you would have plenty to read if you came back here in the middle of my night. I composed them this morning, but then you logged in, so I delayed posting them until we covered the topics we were discussing. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring your old post.

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2012, 04:22:14 PM »
I presented all that so there would be a lot of evidence for you to sort through, against Muhammad, and in favor of all of the prophets and witnesses of the bible.
But the most important thing we have to discuss is Jesus' crucifixion, which is the whole subject of the Gospel, and in actuality the whole bible. Please read that prior post again,
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2117.msg12503#msg12503

Please read this thread
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2641.0
or this web page
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

Note added a little later:
Bornao, I am sorry I was so blunt and matter-of-fact with you, throughout our exchange. It expressed only my concern, but not my love for you, and I sincerely regret that. Yet you remained civil, gentle and sweet the whole way through. We have dealt with some harsh Muslims so maybe it was force of habit, but that certainly isn't an excuse. I am sorry for how I posted, and I hope you can forgive me for it.

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2012, 02:13:01 AM »
Please, please, please look back at this thread before moving forward.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2117.msg12491#msg12491

In the following I chop your oldest post that hasn't been addressed yet, into several small, mostly one-subject posts. Please don't be alarmed by the volume. Simply start with the oldest one at the link above and then move one by one in order from this post down.

[Sorry. You can't have it both ways. Moses was inspired to write the account of Yahweh speaking to Abraham manifest as a man. So your prior post indicates you believe Moses was a liar because you believe Muhammad.]

At translation of Surah The Cow 2/285

285.   The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction .......

And that's the tragedy of it. Even you are required to believe that Jesus is the one and only Messiah. Required to believe Jesus is the only person ever to be born of a virgin by the will of God. You are required to believe that Jesus is sinless. You are required to believe that Jesus was lifted physically to heaven.

Brother, the real tragedy is ignoring what all the prophets are saying. Hz.Noah, Hz.Lut, Hz.Abraham... and also the ones whose names has not been mentioned in our books. And watch the word messengerS (prophetS) They are plural.

Surah The Rock 15/80
80.    The Companions of the Rocky Tract also rejected the messengers:

Surah The Poets 26/123 and 141
123.    The Noah's (people) rejected the messengers.

Surah 38/13

13.    And Tham�d, and the people of Lut, and the Companions of the Wood; - such were the Confederates.

I can go on and on...


Yet you are not allowed to make a distinction between THE sinless MESSIAH, and a sinful 7th century, imperialistic conquering, mass murdering, female prisoner abusing, child doing, self-admitted terrorist, and thief. A false prophet that professed the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.

Jesus was sinless. 7th century? You are talking about history right? Brother history is something which people write. It is all in the hands of people. And people are emotional creatures. You see? You try to mention islam people did wrong things. But according to my aspect and my historians you are the ones did wrong things. You are the one who started crusades. etc, etc... You are trying to tell me city of Mecca hasn't been existed before the 4th century. Even you are right what's about it? Quran dose not say Mecca existed before 4th century or something like that. Quran also underlines there was not a city called Mecca at the times of Hz.Abraham.

Surah Abraham 14/37


37.    "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer: so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits: so that they may give thanks.

I think this answer is okay for you. Brother, I realy don't like history. I am not ignoring you or trying to cover something. I just don't like and don't trust history. Okay?  :)

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2012, 02:26:24 AM »
....... (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

Yes, I can’t have both ways. But, there is only one way and muslims belive all the prophets of Creator is carring the same message.

Yet Muhammad professed the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel. He filled you with complete resolve, not as to what to believe, but specifically as to what to DISbelieve, DENY and REJECT.
You are compelled to DISbelieve the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, and to DENY that Jesus is the Son of God, and to REJECT the shed blood of the sinless Messiah that He shed to save you from your sins.

Islam is to the Gospel as the negative is to a photograph. Islam is the only anti-another-religion, religion. Islam is ANTICHRIST.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

Brother, these are all you thoughts. Don't expect me to comment these. I belive only God can judge me. That's what the Quran says. Thats why I can't judge you and please, don't judge me.

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2012, 02:43:26 AM »
No muslim is a muslim if he or she says Moses(Peace be upon him) or Jesus(puh) or Nuh(puh) or Lut(puh) or Abraham(puh) (or any other prophets) was a liar.

Simply parroting Ahmed Deedat won't make what you write magically come true. Are you lying now or were you lying before? You already rejected Moses prophecy to follow Muhammad. And you reject Jesus' prophecy to follow Muhammad.

I did a video on the lie that "Muslims believe in Jesus and all the prophets."
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2714.0
The simple fact of the matter is that Muslims believe IN Muhammad alone. The most that can be said about their belief in any of the prophets of the God of the Jews and Christians, is that they believe they existed, while rejecting the way they are revealed in the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind, to believe the EXACT OPPOSITE. Specifically to DISbelieve and reject them, because of your faith in Muhammad.

I don't reject any of the Creator's prophets. If I wrote something like that, this must be a grammar mistake or something. Please show it to me and I correct it. (Just a quote is enouh.) And who is Ahmed Deedat and Muslim Ahmed Mehmet bla bla blas? I am just here to talk about Quran. Don't expect magical words from me, I am not a prophet or something like that. And I am not trying to convert you.

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2012, 03:20:46 AM »
All of the prophets of the Creator are valuable for us.

That is empty lip service and a lie. You reject Jesus to follow Muhammad. To believe IN Jesus you have to believe that He was crucified, died and was resurrected, and that we are saved from sin by His shed blood. THE WHOLE SUBJECT OF THE GOSPEL and Old Testament prophecy.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

I don't reject Hz.Jesus. I belive he has no father, like Adam. He is a prophet. I don't belive he died because of anybodys sins. If so, what about the people of the past (B.C.) What about the ones who hasn't heard of any religion, old African tribes, Mayas, Native Americans, Aboriginals. What makes me better than them. Nothing. We all are humans. Am I lucky? No. This life is a test and everybody has different questions to answer. And what about Adam and Eve. They did something wrong and a sinless man, Hz. Jesus pay it. I don't think so. (These are all my thouths and the way I think.)

Surah The Food 5/116-117-118

116.    And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.   

117.    "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.   

118.    "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."

I hope Hz.Messiah save you there by praying for you.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 03:23:47 AM by Bornao »

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2012, 03:47:57 AM »
The point is the message which the bring has been changed.

That's a lie from straight out of the pit of hell. What it means is that you follow Satan who revealed the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, through his prophet Muhammad. Muhammad is the only "change".

Even if you take the translation of Quran as Quran the message is not he same. If you can speak an other languge other than English chose a song and try to translate it. You can’t clearly succeed.

That's false. It's easy to expose Muhammad in just a few verses. I offer a one-minute complete course on Islam, for Christians - Islam 101.
http://www.brotherpete.com


[If Muhammad was not a false prophet then ALL of the prophets of the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind were false - including Jesus.]


False? Who said that?

You did when you demonstrated that you rejected Moses's prophecy for the false prophet Muhammad. When you rejected Jesus' prophecy for the false prophet Muhammad.


At Surah The Food 5/47

47.   Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

So even Muhammad said Christians are to judge by what is revealed in the Gospel. By Muhammad's 7th century the Gospel had been translated into every popular language, had been copied tens of thousands of times, and had been read all over the known world for centuries. Here is a little of what it says:

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Matthew 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, 18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, 19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Christ crucified as was prophesied by the Old Testament prophets as well
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

I gave the answers of these at top. (False prophet... ect.)
Again, brodher I am not here to judge you. And yes, Surah The Food 5/47 is right.

And translations are not the original. Translation of Quran is an translation of Quran, it dosen't mean Quran. We still have ones which has been writen about 600's. The more important part of this, it has been memorized by thousands of people, latter by letter, word by word.
If you show me these chapters in the original of the Bible, that's ok. But versions and translations are not original.

I can poof it. Tell me which language can you talk rather than English.

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2012, 04:26:34 AM »

At Surah The Family of Imran 3/113

113.   Not all of them are alike: Among the People of the Book are a portion that stand (for the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.


The People of the book means: The people who call themselves Christian and Jewish.
Buy the way

Christians and Jews HAVE NEVER nor WOULD EVER, prostrate themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca - 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs - and pray in the "vain repetitions of the heathen" 5 times a day, as the Sabians did that Muhammad copied that from.


By saying the black stone you mean Kabe where are not worshiping it. ;D It's a direction. Do you know the directions of very old churchs? Come to Turkey with a compass. Did you know Hz. Abraham whashes his body parts before praying. Check the Bible. Did you know Hz.Jesus fells on his face when prayin? Check the Bible. If you say the Bible is original and I belive what it says, it's in your book. Did you know Hz.Abraham, Hz.Moses, Hz.Jesus circumcise, it's in your book than. You think there is only one Holy Land, what about Mayas and old Natives in Australia, etc. What makes us think we are special, or the loved ones. Brother, we only know what we have been told.

Ishaq:462/Tabari VIII:30 "The Jews said, 'We will never abandon the Torah or exchange it for the Qur'an.' Asad said, 'Since you reject this proposal of mine, then kill your children and your wives and go out to Muhammad and his Companions as men who brandish swords, leaving behind no impediments to worry you. If you die, you shall have left nothing behind; if you win you shall find other women and children.' The Jews replied, 'Why would we kill these poor ones? What would be the good of living after them?'"

Tabari VIII:35/Ishaq:464 "Huyayy, the enemy of Allah, was brought out. He was wearing a rose-colored suit of clothes that he had torn all over with fingertip-sized holes so that it would not be taken as booty. His hands were bound to his neck with a rope. When he looked at Muhammad he said, 'I do not regret opposing you. Whoever forsakes God will be damned.' He sat down and was beheaded."

The Banu Qurayza knew who to fear, and it wasn't Muhammad and his alter-ego - the Arabian pagan deity - "Allah".

http://www.petewaldo.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm

Surah The Cow 2/256

256.    Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Taghut (evil) and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

"No compulsion in religion" it says. And they did it when they are saying this. Funny history again. Look, the nations are converting. Which sward did we use upon Indonesia?

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #60 on: March 05, 2012, 05:00:52 AM »
In Quran Allah says, the ones who hasn’t heard the truth is no resposible.


[Matthew 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, 18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, 19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm]



Surah Marium (Mery) 19/33

33.   "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

That's nonsense. Jesus speaking as an infant Muhammad plagiarized from an Arabic apocryphal fable written in Egypt titled "First Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ" it said:
"...Jesus spake even when he was in the cradle, and said: 'Mary, I am Jesus the son of God. That word which thou didst bring forth according to the declaration of the angel..."
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=452.0

Millions are all going wrong and their number is increasing. Looks like our kids, maybe grand kids are going to be muslim. Come on brother, are all those people going wrong. I don't want to talk these kind of things. We believe what the original Bible says. Unfortunately what we have is versions and translations of it. Even the translation of Quran is not Quran. How can we trust on the versions.
Brother, I realy don’t care the thouht of you. (Don't take it negative. I mean the positive.) Please ask me questions like, It says bla bla bla in Quran and what dose it mean. I think you only have a translation of Quran and translations are not enough to understand. I can show you if you can tell me which language you can speak instead English. Ok?

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #61 on: March 05, 2012, 05:17:14 AM »
Brother, tell me the Surah and ayet number where, "flying donkey-mule." or "burak." passes. Than I answer. I have no idea who, "Sahih Muslim" or what, "Book 001, Number 0309:" is. Who ever he is, I can only give answers from the Quran.

That is from the Hadith, which are second only to the Quran. They are collections of things that Muhammad is supposed to have said. Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari are the two most respected collections of Muhammad's life in Islam. Without them nobody could have ever made any sense out of the Quran.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2860.0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith

Brother Hadith is not Quran. As you see, even original Quran existing today people can try to add something in it. But can't succeed because the original still remains. I know what Hadith (It's closer if we say hadis, With an s at the and.) Yes it helps to understand, but without it you can understand the minimal of the teachings and it's enough for any muslim. And at those Hadis books, the writers allways says, "I you find something which is opposite to Quran, deny mine." Ok?

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #62 on: March 05, 2012, 05:40:46 AM »

[Quote from: Bornao on Today at 07:07:20 AM
Trust me. I can give many, many examples that proofs Quran is not a word of a man.

That couldn't be more false. All you presented was nonsensical "science" in the Quran that is all exposed on the link I provided.
I answered that. Please explain it:

Surah The Ant27/88

88.    Thou seest the mountains and thinkest them firmly fixed: but they shall pass away as the clouds pass away: (such is) the artistry of Allah, who disposes of all things in perfect order: for He is well acquainted with all that ye do.

Tell me brother, did they   knew that mountains was moving. Please don't show me links etc. write you answer. (I prefer shot ones. You realy write so long an long)

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #63 on: March 05, 2012, 05:48:27 AM »


It is the mount where the one true God Yahweh had His people build a temple to him. Solomon's temple which was destroyed and later replaced by Herod's temple which was destroyed because Jesus' people are His temple today.

Brother I answered that at the top. The ayeth is not sayin in the mescid. It remarks the place (precincts We did bless)
Peace :)

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #64 on: March 05, 2012, 05:50:06 AM »

[Quote from: Bornao on Today at 07:07:20 AM
Trust me. I can give many, many examples that proofs Quran is not a word of a man.

That couldn't be more false. All you presented was nonsensical "science" in the Quran that is all exposed on the link I provided.
Not a single person ever heard Gabriel or "Allah" give Muhammad a single "revelation". Yet you must reject all of the prophets and witnesses as revealed in the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind to follow Muhammad alone.

Then rather than ignore my last post, and my request, why don't you begin by providing us with some archaeological and historical evidence, that suggests that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD?][/color]

Sorry for that. I am just trying to stick on the subject. Didn’t mean to ignore you. At that link, if it says Mecca existed before the 4th century and want met o comment this. My answer is yes without reading them. Mecca existed before the 4th century. Even the Kaba existed before 4th century. (Before there was a city.) Here is Surah The Caw 2/127


127.   And remember Abraham and Ismail raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing."


96.   The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all the worlds.

The house which Adem has build for praying.

I think, you are asking how did Hz.Mumammed understand the language of Jabr. Is that right?
The answer is so easy that I am not sure I get the question right. If I got it wrong forgive me. Here is the answer: Jabr, it is Gabriel in English. Gabriel is the angel of vahiys.

Jabr was an ex-"christian" neighbor of Muhammad that Muhammad got much of his "revelation" from. So frequently did Muhammad get a "revelation" after a long chat with Jabr, that the Quraish nicknamed Jabr "holy spirit". Please visit that thread on the inspiration of the Quran.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=452.0

The angel who was created or who was charged for carrying the words of the Creator.

Even Muhammad knew that it was a demon that met him in that cave and tried to choke the life out of him three times. His wife Khadijah talked him out of his demon theory, but she wasn't even there.
2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Which language do you thing the angels are using? English? Spanish, Arabic? I thing your answer will be, “No.” The language they use is different from the human beings uses. But trust me, if an angel talk to you, you will understand. If that happens, I can’t imagine you saying to angel, “I have no idea what you are talking about.”

Trust me. Angels of the Lord don't go around making people feel like they are having the life choked out of them.

Muhammad Thought the Spirit in Cave Hira Was a Demon (DQ1-5) - Coptic priest Zakaria Botrous
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpsWnbApBNw

What Did Mohammed Do In the Cave Hira? (DQ1-3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNbzevID550

Muhammad Already Knew "Gabriel" Was a Demon (DQ-9)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk0dQCpglb4

Again, these are just thoughts of you. No comment :)

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #65 on: March 05, 2012, 06:00:42 AM »
No it's the first time I've ever done it. Sorry, I didn't see you were online and I thought you left for the day so I took the opportunity to post them so you would have plenty to read if you came back here in the middle of my night. I composed them this morning, but then you logged in, so I delayed posting them until we covered the topics we were discussing. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring your old post.

 Even you hate us, you are a nice man.  :) If I shamed you, I am sorry for that. You are rihgt I was going to be off for two days. And my time is coming. (Which I can't be here anymore.) If anythink happens suddenly hope to see you in heavens.

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2012, 06:11:13 AM »
....... (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

Yes, I can’t have both ways. But, there is only one way and muslims belive all the prophets of Creator is carring the same message.

Yet Muhammad professed the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel. He filled you with complete resolve, not as to what to believe, but specifically as to what to DISbelieve, DENY and REJECT.
You are compelled to DISbelieve the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, and to DENY that Jesus is the Son of God, and to REJECT the shed blood of the sinless Messiah that He shed to save you from your sins.

Islam is to the Gospel as the negative is to a photograph. Islam is the only anti-another-religion, religion. Islam is ANTICHRIST.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

Brother, these are all you thoughts. Don't expect me to comment these. I belive only God can judge me. That's what the Quran says. Thats why I can't judge you and please, don't judge me.

Those are not my thoughts. It comes from the scriptures.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Please read the verse again and comment. Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God or do you deny it?

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

Here are hundreds of verses regarding God the Father and His Son.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=611.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=610.0

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #67 on: March 05, 2012, 06:14:47 AM »
Note added a little later:
Bornao, I am sorry I was so blunt and matter-of-fact with you, throughout our exchange. It expressed only my concern, but not my love for you, and I sincerely regret that. Yet you remained civil, gentle and sweet the whole way through. We have dealt with some harsh Muslims so maybe it was force of habit, but that certainly isn't an excuse. I am sorry for how I posted, and I hope you can forgive me for it.

Now I am ashamed. I read the Galileo Galilei thing which I wrote. I thougt someone was shouting at me, showing my face with his finger and sayin you did that and that bla bla bla. Brother, sometime when I write, I can't show my emotions correctly. (This is not my original langue.) But trust, when I was writing these all, I was smileing all the time. :)
Peace

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #68 on: March 05, 2012, 06:40:59 AM »
Note added a little later:
Bornao, I am sorry I was so blunt and matter-of-fact with you, throughout our exchange. It expressed only my concern, but not my love for you, and I sincerely regret that. Yet you remained civil, gentle and sweet the whole way through. We have dealt with some harsh Muslims so maybe it was force of habit, but that certainly isn't an excuse. I am sorry for how I posted, and I hope you can forgive me for it.

Now I am ashamed. I read the Galileo Galilei thing which I wrote.

We are more upset about the anti-Gospel and anti-intellectual nature of the Roman Catholic church - during the dark ages - than you are, because it acted contrary to the Gospel, and those Gospel-contrary actions prevent people from picking up and reading the Gospel unto this day.

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

You might have noticed our Arabic section, that includes links to an Arabic bible if that would make it easier for you to read. Also an Arabic audio Gospel that you can listen to:
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=71.0

Unfortunately Islam continues to be anti-intellectual as evidenced by it's madrassas. Look at the educational system of the Taliban. That is the future of Islam. Or whichever faction is more murderous, violent, oppressive and reprobate than the Taliban. The Muslim Brotherhood is inciting the burning of churches, and Christians are being murdered everywhere they have influence. Whichever Islamic faction becomes the most evil and violent is who will be ruling over Muhammad's followers - over you - and deep down I believe you understand that.

We are mad about the Roman Church crusades and it's other murders of millions of Jews, Muslims AND CHRISTIANS because it prevents people from reading the Gospel and coming to know the love of the one true God, because your impression is that the Gospel is the opposite of the love that it in fact expresses. Read the Gospel and see if you can find one place where Christians are called to do anything other than to love everyone. Here is our law in a nutshell

Mark 12:29  And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.  31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.  32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Whether those neighbors are Jews, Muslims or atheists.
And for how we are to treat our enemies?

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

There is nothing in the Gospel that contradicts the above verses.

Yet Islam continues it 1400 year reign of murder unto today with over 18,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world, just since 9-11.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com

Muhammad's true followers continue to engage in imperialistic conquest and murder as their prophet did, and commanded them to do.

Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Sura 9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

But Muhammad was ignorant to the Gospel or he would have known that the Gospel calls for Jesus' followers to love our neighbors, not fight and slay them. Thus he lied about the Gospel in that verse.

Qur'an Sura 33:26 Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things.

Muhammad's true followers continue to take down the "People of the Scripture Book", and cast terror into our hearts unto this day.
more here
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2983.0

I thougt someone was shouting at me, showing my face with his finger and sayin you did that and that bla bla bla. Brother, sometime when I write, I can't show my emotions correctly. (This is not my original langue.) But trust, when I was writing these all, I was smileing all the time. :)
Peace

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #69 on: March 05, 2012, 07:00:04 AM »
No muslim is a muslim if he or she says Moses(Peace be upon him) or Jesus(puh) or Nuh(puh) or Lut(puh) or Abraham(puh) (or any other prophets) was a liar.

Simply parroting Ahmed Deedat won't make what you write magically come true. Are you lying now or were you lying before? You already rejected Moses prophecy to follow Muhammad. And you reject Jesus' prophecy to follow Muhammad.

I did a video on the lie that "Muslims believe in Jesus and all the prophets."
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2714.0
The simple fact of the matter is that Muslims believe IN Muhammad alone. The most that can be said about their belief in any of the prophets of the God of the Jews and Christians, is that they believe they existed, while rejecting the way they are revealed in the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind, to believe the EXACT OPPOSITE. Specifically to DISbelieve and reject them, because of your faith in Muhammad.

I don't reject any of the Creator's prophets.

That's good. So then you don't reject Jesus' prophecy of his own crucifixion, death and resurrection, because that is all that is all one needs to believe about the Messiah to begin to seek a relationship with Him, and come to know the love of the one true God through our Savior, and be saved from our sins rather than being separated from God forever.

Matthew 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, 18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, 19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.

And you don't reject the prophet Jesus' stated purpose of it:

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

And you don't reject the other prophets accounts of Jesus death.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

That's good! There's hope for you yet!

If I wrote something like that, this must be a grammar mistake or something. Please show it to me and I correct it. (Just a quote is enouh.) And who is Ahmed Deedat and Muslim Ahmed Mehmet bla bla blas? I am just here to talk about Quran. Don't expect magical words from me, I am not a prophet or something like that. And I am not trying to convert you.

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2012, 08:03:59 AM »
I watch the Ahmed Deedat thing. (Remember the man you wrote?) I watch the,   http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=hct1MujfOWU
You know what I see. What I see is, they are not realy in a debate. Look at them. You can guess the answers and questions. And I am sure they both know that they can’t come to an agreement. This debate is not new between us. (This debate is about 1400 years old.) What I see is they are trying to make a call to all people. Like giving a message, “Wake up people. We all are created for purpose. We all gonna taste death and that’s not the end.” You know what I mean. They are trying to gain attention. There are sex clups around the world, drug dealers, rapists, kidnaping littel kids for their kidney,  alcoholism, and this and that. Debate is the best way to gain attention. You know… people love to take sides. Brother, are we, you and I, different? Yes, but not that much. We both trying to stay away from the sins. The way we believe can be different but we both know the eternal life is real. What I am trying to say, our real target (I am not sure if this word fits here) our real target must be the people who does not care gaining sins. 

What ever we say to each other, (You and me) none of us will convert our religions. Now if you realy want a fake debate with me I am in. I don’t have much time but I’m in. Tell me quikly than I erase this part.
(I prefere to answer your questions about Quran)

Peter

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2012, 08:30:11 AM »
I watch the Ahmed Deedat thing. (Remember the man you wrote?) I watch the,   http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=hct1MujfOWU
You know what I see. What I see is, they are not realy in a debate. Look at them. You can guess the answers and questions.

So don't waste your time with it but instead please review and address my three prior posts.
Tragically Ahmed Deedat is a proven liar, who even created his own phony bible verse that fooled his adoring bible-ignorant followers into believing that Muhammad was not antichrist, as I expose in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_4_tbN-b_A
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=335.0

That isn't debate - it is taqiyyah.

That 7th century Muhammad proclaimed the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, as revealed through all of the first century prophets and witnesses, isn't a debate but a matter of fact. Contrary to your claims, you must reject them all, to follow Muhammad alone.

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2012, 09:10:53 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_4_tbN-b_A

Brother is that you voice? You are younger than I thouht.  :)
I watched the video. I am not good at Bible, I am just checking because you asked me. Here I found this if you are interested, http://www.christnotes.org/bible.php?q=1+John+4&ver=kjv

By the way I searched the word taqiyyah in dictionary, but couldn't find it. What dose it mean?

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2012, 09:16:23 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_4_tbN-b_A

Brother is that you voice? You are younger than I thouht.  :)

Yes that's my voice, but I'm 61! Maybe I've just got a girly voice! ;D
But I am a new (young) Christian because I wasn't born again until 2003.


I watched the video. I am not good at Bible, I am just checking because you asked me.

You don't have to be good at anything. Simply listen to the verses I read and compare them against what Muhammad taught - which was the EXACT OPPOSITE.
Simply read the Gospel while asking Jesus for His help with a contrite spirit, and Jesus will reveal Himself to you as He did with these folks.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Muslims4Jesus#g/u

Here I found this if you are interested, http://www.christnotes.org/bible.php?q=1+John+4&ver=kjv

By the way I searched the word taqiyyah in dictionary, but couldn't find it. What dose it mean?

Taqiyyah is lying in the way of Allah. When Muslims can't advance the goal of Da'wah in any other way they are allowed to engage in subterfuge, as Ahmed Deedat did in that video. He told the same lie on other occasions, even though Christian ministers had repeatedly corrected him. He simply went on lying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKMMr4lZx2E
Regarding Taqiyyah
Web search

Bornao

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Re: Allah - the one ... who confounds all human understanding
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2012, 10:36:24 AM »


Yes that's my voice, but I'm 61! Maybe I've just got a girly voice! ;D
But I am a new (young) Christian because I wasn't born again until 2003.

61, unbelievable :) I would like to read your story sometime. (Becoming a Christian)

1 John 4

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Is that mean, the onse who does not believe Juses(PBH) come in the flesh, is from the devil? We believe he was a man. And Hz.Muhammed was not a man who speaks of world. Here is a proof:

If you search the word dunya, which means world

I passes 115 times

The word ahiret, (means other world) passes 115 times

Devil (Sheytan) 88
Angel (Melek) 88

Hell 77
Heaven 77

Woman 23
man 23

I can give lots of examples like that. Surah The Cow 2/200

200.    So when ye have accomplished your holy rites, celebrate the praises of Allah, as ye used to celebrate the praises of your fathers,- yea, with far more heart and soul. There are men who say: "Our Lord! Give us (Thy bounties) in this world!" but they will have no portion in the Hereafter.

I can give many...

Brodher, you realy don't like this Ahmed Deedat guy. Have you ever talk to him?