Babylon the great
I always thought "a woman" mentioned in rev 12:1 is different from in rev17:3, this is because of all of the nations that the Bible mentions in Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Isaiah which gathered to battle against Israel at the end of days and take Jerusalem are currently Muslim nations, and now your website clearly confirmed it for me. Thus, as many writers did, representing city of Rom, Italy for the woman in rev 17:3 is wrong choice; Therefore, I write this to verify that if the name of the woman in rev 17:3 revealed to me or if it is just my imagination.
I took the woman in rev 12.1 is I believe Zion, (Isa66:8) "...for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children." Zion is city of God, (psalm 87:2-3) the city of righteousness, and the faithful city ;( Isa1:26) were sinners repent, transgresses punished and corrected, and those persist on doing unrighteousness pushed out to outside world, into the wilderness. Zion is Jerusalem and is the city of David, a transfer city in a journey to the heavenly Jerusalem.
The other woman which is in rev 17:3 is Babylon. Babylon is the satanic parody of Jerusalem; it is a transfer city in a journey to hell. Babylon the city of the beast sits on seven heads and seven mountains (17:9) and says "..., I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow." the even heads are seven kings (17:10) who crowned in heaven contrary to the ten horns crowned on earth (12:3, 13:1) which tell us, the seven heads are embodied felon angles. In Additional, the head, which is wounded and worshiped by those not written in the book of life of the Lamb, is come out of the bottomless pit(17:8).
1. Now the city which I think Babylon is have seven mountain and on the mountain seven memorial for the kings or for the seven (666) heads.
"The city has also been nicknamed "The City on Seven Hills" because the historic peninsula, the oldest part of the city, was built on seven hills (just like Rome), each of which bears a historic mosque".
2. The city says, "I sit a queen,"
One of old nicknames of the city is Vasilevousa Polis (the Queen of Cities)
3. The city says," shall see no sorrow."
Other nickname of the city is Der-i Saadet (the Door to Happiness)
4. "Great city." (17:18) or Babylon the great
Is Istanbul which means "in the city", "to the city"
"Istanbul Province has 39 districts (2009), of which 27 form the city proper of Istanbul, also called Greater Istanbul"
5. Isaiah "That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!"(14:4)
?stanbul is Hrisopolis (The Golden City),
6. The harlot
Turkey integrated with the Western world, mostly Christians and middle eastern the Muslims.
7."i am no widows"
I shall not sit [as] a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children: {47:9} But these two [things] shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: (Ezek 47:8-9)
Furthermore, in Istanbul Greek Orthodox Christians, Armenian Christians, Catholic Levantines and Sephardic Jews community resides. Likewise, the call "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." (18:4) is for them.
Hi joail. Since your name is blacked out I can only presume that you joined the forum and then revoked your own membership a couple of days later. I don't remember even seeing your post until resisting showed it to me today. Though we have both been a bit busy catching up with personal business lately.
If you did not revoke your own membership please contact me so I can know if there was a problem with the forum software (though that would be peculiar since we have been using it for a couple years with no such problem).
Quote from: joail on April 12, 2010, 04:56:35 PM
Babylon the great
I always thought "a woman" mentioned in rev 12:1 is different from in rev17:3, this is because of all of the nations that the Bible mentions in Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Isaiah which gathered to battle against Israel at the end of days and take Jerusalem are currently Muslim nations, and now your website clearly confirmed it for me. Thus, as many writers did, representing city of Rom, Italy for the woman in rev 17:3 is wrong choice; Therefore, I write this to verify that if the name of the woman in rev 17:3 revealed to me or if it is just my imagination.
The woman is Rev 12:1 is Israel. The woman in Rev 17:3 is, at least sofar as I can tell, the RCC.
Quote from: joail on April 12, 2010, 04:56:35 PM
I took the woman in rev 12.1 is I believe Zion, (Isa66:8) "...for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children." Zion is city of God, (psalm 87:2-3) the city of righteousness, and the faithful city ;( Isa1:26) were sinners repent, transgresses punished and corrected, and those persist on doing unrighteousness pushed out to outside world, into the wilderness. Zion is Jerusalem and is the city of David, a transfer city in a journey to the heavenly Jerusalem.
That verse is referencing Israel. With the twelve stars representative of the twelve tribes of Israel. The child being the promised Messiah. Revelation 12:5 puts this issue to rest.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
Obviously that child was Jesus. So that makes the woman with 12 stars Israel.
Quote from: joail on April 12, 2010, 04:56:35 PM
The other woman which is in rev 17:3 is Babylon. Babylon is the satanic parody of Jerusalem; it is a transfer city in a journey to hell. Babylon the city of the beast sits on seven heads and seven mountains (17:9) and says "..., I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow." the even heads are seven kings (17:10) who crowned in heaven contrary to the ten horns crowned on earth (12:3, 13:1) which tell us, the seven heads are embodied felon angles. In Additional, the head, which is wounded and worshiped by those not written in the book of life of the Lamb, is come out of the bottomless pit(17:8).
That woman in 17:3 is the whore of Babylon not the city of Babylon. All mystery religions find their origins in Babylon. The RCC has bedded down with many of those mystery religions in its' rituals and rites. Its' teachings have allowed untold hersies into the larger community as a whole and let us not forget the obvious description of the woman herself.
Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:4
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
What could be more abominable to God than to see a religion call itself Christian and wed itself with idolatry? That may seem harsh but it is true.
Quote from: joail on April 12, 2010, 04:56:35 PM
1. Now the city which I think Babylon is have seven mountain and on the mountain seven memorial for the kings or for the seven (666) heads.
"The city has also been nicknamed "The City on Seven Hills" because the historic peninsula, the oldest part of the city, was built on seven hills (just like Rome), each of which bears a historic mosque".
Well that is the known nickname of Rome. Since it sits on seven hills.
Quote from: joail on April 12, 2010, 04:56:35 PM
2. The city says, "I sit a queen,"
One of old nicknames of the city is Vasilevousa Polis (the Queen of Cities)
3. The city says," shall see no sorrow."
Other nickname of the city is Der-i Saadet (the Door to Happiness)
4. "Great city." (17:18) or Babylon the great
Is Istanbul which means "in the city", "to the city"
"Istanbul Province has 39 districts (2009), of which 27 form the city proper of Istanbul, also called Greater Istanbul"
5. Isaiah "That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!"(14:4)
?stanbul is Hrisopolis (The Golden City),
6. The harlot
Turkey integrated with the Western world, mostly Christians and middle eastern the Muslims.
Actually Turkey is 98% muslim.
Quote from: joail on April 12, 2010, 04:56:35 PM
7."i am no widows"
I shall not sit [as] a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children: {47:9} But these two [things] shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: (Ezek 47:8-9)
Furthermore, in Istanbul Greek Orthodox Christians, Armenian Christians, Catholic Levantines and Sephardic Jews community resides. Likewise, the call "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." (18:4) is for them.
I believe that is a universal call to all of those Christians in the false doctrines permeating Christianity. Specifically the RCC. With all that being said there is something interesting about Turkey.
Rev 2:12 ¶ And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
That Church named in verse 12 is located in Turkey. Funny how that works. Satan's dwelling place is at the border between Islam and the Western world.
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on April 14, 2010, 11:05:17 AM
Quote from: joail on April 12, 2010, 04:56:35 PM
Babylon the great
I always thought "a woman" mentioned in rev 12:1 is different from in rev17:3, this is because of all of the nations that the Bible mentions in Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Isaiah which gathered to battle against Israel at the end of days and take Jerusalem are currently Muslim nations, and now your website clearly confirmed it for me. Thus, as many writers did, representing city of Rom, Italy for the woman in rev 17:3 is wrong choice; Therefore, I write this to verify that if the name of the woman in rev 17:3 revealed to me or if it is just my imagination.
The woman is Rev 12:1 is Israel. The woman in Rev 17:3 is, at least sofar as I can tell, the RCC.
I agree with that, but wonder if the harlot in chapter 17 could also be a broader topic of phony churches throughout the history of mankind with the RCC as no insignificant player as it fits the details of the description so well. I say broader because I believe the scarlet beast to be a picture of mankind's spiritual condition throughout our history, as I believe the LBL beast of rev 13 to be about the physical and historical conditions of mankind throughout our history.
Scarlet Beast per Ellis Skolfield
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1264.0
QuoteI agree with that, but wonder if the harlot in chapter 17 could also be a broader topic of phony churches throughout the history of mankind with the RCC as no insignificant player as it fits the details of the description so well
Yeah I think that could be the case. The RCC is the first thing that pops into most peoples' heads when the word Christian is mentioned. I think this has been a major tool used by the enemy. And the RCC is the first time in history that heresy was introduced on such an instantaneous and grandiose scale. Without the RCC their would have been no reformation. No reformation would have meant no schism in the body of Christ to allow as many heretical branches as there are today. That is what I think is meant by the mother of harlots and abominations. But it is speculative.
Imagine being the 4th century ekklesia. The body of Christ had effectively used the scriptures to ferret out heresy and dispell them from the body for over 3 centuries. Then oneday Constantine approaches the local assembly in Rome and wants to "join". Under immense pressure the leaders in Rome accept his terms and bam before you know it the RCC is born and true Christianity is nearly completely swallowed. Imagine how disheartening it must have been for the other groups to hear the teachings being espoused in the name of Christ by the church in Rome.
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on April 14, 2010, 11:25:31 AM
QuoteI agree with that, but wonder if the harlot in chapter 17 could also be a broader topic of phony churches throughout the history of mankind with the RCC as no insignificant player as it fits the details of the description so well
Yeah I think that could be the case. The RCC is the first thing that pops into most peoples' heads when the word Christian is mentioned. I think this has been a major tool used by the enemy. And the RCC is the first time in history that heresy was introduced on such an instantaneous and grandiose scale.
Certainly on that scale, but John wrote about heresy in the ecclesia back in the late first century, including nicolaitianism of which the RCC provides an excellent example.
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on April 14, 2010, 11:25:31 AMWithout the RCC their would have been no reformation. No reformation would have meant no schism in the body of Christ to allow as many heretical branches as there are today. That is what I think is meant by the mother of harlots and abominations. But it is speculative.
I blame ALL who usurped the headship of Jesus Christ. There is no shortage of schism among protestants as a couple thousand denominations attest.
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on April 14, 2010, 11:25:31 AM
Imagine being the 4th century ekklesia. The body of Christ had effectively used the scriptures to ferret out heresy and dispell them from the body for over 3 centuries.
II wouldn't be so sure of that. Gnosticism was popular in the first century too.
"The use of the word "heresy" in the context of Christianity was given wide currency by Irenaeus in his tract Contra Haereses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Detection_and_Overthrow_of_the_So-Called_Gnosis) (Against Heresies) to describe and discredit his opponents in the early Christian Church. He described his own position as orthodox (from ortho- "straight" + doxa "belief") and his position eventually evolved into the position of the early Christian Church."
Dated about 180 AD.
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on April 14, 2010, 11:25:31 AMThen oneday Constantine approaches the local assembly in Rome and wants to "join". Under immense pressure the leaders in Rome accept his terms and bam before you know it the RCC is born and true Christianity is nearly completely swallowed. Imagine how disheartening it must have been for the other groups to hear the teachings being espoused in the name of Christ by the church in Rome.
QuoteI blame ALL who usurped the headship of Jesus Christ. There is no shortage of schism among protestants as a couple thousand denominations attest.
Yeah that was part of my point. I wasn't blaming all schisms on the RCC. I meant that the oppresiveness of the RCC that led to the reformation made such schisms more open and common.
QuoteI wouldn't be so sure of that. Gnosticism was popular in the first century too.
"The use of the word "heresy" in the context of Christianity was given wide currency by Irenaeus in his tract Contra Haereses (Against Heresies) to describe and discredit his opponents in the early Christian Church. He described his own position as orthodox (from ortho- "straight" + doxa "belief") and his position eventually evolved into the position of the early Christian Church."
Dated about 180 AD.
Yes that is true but they would not have been part of the ekklesia. I am referring to those groups that were earnestly contending for the faith. As for my use of heresy I use it for any teaching that is in direct conflict with the clear meaning of scripture.
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on April 14, 2010, 11:42:03 AM
Yes that is true but they would not have been part of the ekklesia. I am referring to those groups that were earnestly contending for the faith. As for my use of heresy I use it for any teaching that is in direct conflict with the clear meaning of scripture.
Indeed. My point was that it didn't start with the RCC, if someone reading your post got that impression. Earlier today RCC doctrine popped into my head as a good example.
Roman Catholic doctrine suggests that they give equal weight to scripture and tradition. This is of course, however, not possible. The obvious reason for such a declaration is to allow that every time their doctrine is found to run contrary to scripture, they place their traditions that have developed over the last 1700 years, above it.
As former nun Mary Ann Collins suggests a two headed dog can't hunt.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=432.0
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=scripture+tradition&aq=f&aqi=g5&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
The Episcopal Church takes it one step further to scripture, tradition and
reason, as if failed human logic can be allowed to nullify scripture. Some papers even calling for "meditation". The ordination of homosexuals as bishops is the fruit of that "reason".
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=scripture+tradition+and+reason&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=&oq=scripture+tradition+&gs_rfai=
I think the root of most false doctrines rests with man believing on some level that old lie,
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Men just love allowing there own perceptions shape their faith rather than allow their faith shape their perceptions.
I do wander if Rome is part of the fulfillment of this:
Psalm 110:1
1 The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."
Strange how all that pagan symbolism has now come to be used by Rome.
Though maybe not so strange.
Do you mean as the RCC put under Jesus' feet?
A little while ago I was reading the Book of Revelation. I am confident that The Roman Catholic Church is not the Beast of Babylon. It is called Babylon and not Rome. The Roman Catholic Church has always confessed The father and The Son, and while Rome sits on seven hills, so does Jerusalem and so does Mecca.
I asked God what He was doing with The Roman Catholic Church because at the same time I do see Rome as the Beast that gave authority to the three headed beast.
I envisioned a large golden box like a footstool in which where trapped all evils. I envisioned the monstrance that holds the Eucharistic Host, and that is the verse of scripture that came to me.
Psalm 110:1
1 The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."
Quote from: A Christian Brother on April 19, 2010, 02:41:38 PM
A little while ago I was reading the Book of Revelation. I am confident that The Roman Catholic Church is not the Beast of Babylon. It is called Babylon and not Rome. The Roman Catholic Church has always confessed The father and The Son, and while Rome sits on seven hills, so does Jerusalem and so does Mecca.
I asked God what He was doing with The Roman Catholic Church because at the same time I do see Rome as the Beast that gave authority to the three headed beast.
What three headed beast are you referring to?
I split off the subject and reply to the 7 hills into a separate subject here http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1288.0
I also believe Istanbul is the city referred to in Revelation 17 and 18 though I came to that conclusion quite differently than joail. I became a Christian in 1979 in a church that taught the Historicist view - that Mystery Babylon was a reference to the RCC. For many years I held that position. One day I had my first CD Rom on my pc and the luxury of 4mb of RAM. The CD drive came with a Groliers multimedia encyclopedia. One day I was playing with it and typed seven hills into the search engine. I expected Rome but was puzzled that it mentioned Istanbul. Even moreso when I read that Byzantium was chosen as the site of the new capital by Constantine because it had seven hills and it was called New Rome. Historicists make much of the western Roman Empire but I've never heard one mention the Eastern Roman empire. Anyway over a period of some years I learned more and more about the Byzantine Empire and thought to myself that it must be relelvent to prophecy but where did it fit in? Meanwhile hubby had questions about how the RCC could be mystery Babylon when it was the beast and the ten horns that hated the whore and burned her with fire. If the beast was the RCC and the harlot was the RCC it all got rather muddled. Anyway one day I tried to explain to hubby dear that I thought Mystery Babylon might possibly be the harlot. I was rather vague but just had a niggling feeling about it that didn't go away. I hadn't put together all the facts at that stage. Hubby dearest scoffed and our discussion quickly heated up and I wished I had never brought the subject up with him. He drew out his trump card, "Well then, how did the beast AND the ten horns hate the harlot and burn her with fire." In desperation - to shut him up more than anything I replied, "Piece of cake - Fourth Crusade." Instantly he went quiet and a light went on in my head and suddenly so many pieces fell into place.
I had been puzzled about how Rev 17 harmonized with Rev 18 - If the ten horns hated the whore and burned her with fire in chapter 17 - why were they weeping when they saw the smoke of her burning in chapter 18? But if Mystery Babylon was Constantinople/Istanbul then it fitted beautifully.
In the Fourth Crusade of 1204 the Latins hatred of Constantinople led to her sacking and plunder. The Latins carried away her wealth and enriched themselves on the plunder. Constantinople never fully recoverd from that blow. In 1453 the Ottomans besieged and took her. Then the pope and the Latins were literally weeping in grief and terror because Constantinople stood as a bulwark to the Islamic hordes. What was going to stop the Ottomans sweeping through Europe?
The final part of the prophecy is yet to happen. Scientists predict Istanbul will one day fall into the sea because the city sits on the North Anatolian fault line. What part the Turks will play in the future is speculation - we see through a glass darkly - Possibly Ezekiel 38 - the Ancient Turkish empire was called Gok-turk (Gog?) Meschech, Tubal and Magog are in Asia Minor and Turkey is just far enough away from Israel to miss being nuked if Zechariah 12 is a reference to Israel taking out her neighbours.
Oh and finally in Rev 16 it says the city will be divided into three parts. Check out any map of Istanbul - the great city (Istanbul is a megapolis) is divided into three parts.
There may be a bit of an obstacle to suggesting that Istanbul is the subject of chapter 18, as it would seem that scripture indicates a far broader subject.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Revelation 18:24 kai <2532> {AND} en <1722> {IN} auth <846> {HER [THE]} aima <129> {BLOOD} profhtwn <4396> {OF PROPHETS} kai <2532> {AND} agiwn <40> {SAINTS} eureqh <2147> (5681) {WAS FOUND,} kai <2532> {AND} pantwn <3956> {OF ALL} twn <3588> {THE} esfagmenwn <4969> (5772) {SLAIN} epi <1909> {ON} thV <3588> {THE} ghV <1093> {EARTH.}
Quote from: Peter on May 11, 2010, 06:45:13 AM
There may be a bit of an obstacle to suggesting that Istanbul is the subject of chapter 18, as it would seem that scripture indicates a far broader subject.
Not really because scripture clearly states in seven places that Babylon is a city and to say that it is more than that is to read more into scripture than is there.
I'm not saying I can understand how Istanbul is responsible for all the slain on the earth - but then neither is Jerusalem or New York or Baghdad.
There are a couple of possibilities. Compare Ezekiel 38:19 and 22 with Revelation 16:19. Both passages talk about a great earthquake followed by flooding rain, hailstones, fire and brimstone.
What makes God so angry? A coalition of nations attacking Israel. I mentioned in my first post that the earliest name of the Turks was Gok (Gog?) The history of the Turks is very interesting and I believe very relevent to understanding some prophecies - In particular Revelation 9 and Daniel 11. If we consider the Bible deals with Israel and the church. They first crossed the Euphrates and entered the Holy land in about the 11th century - I don't have the reference books in front of me so pls bear with me - That puts them in the picture. As the Ottoman Empire they controlled all of Israel/Judea and Asia Minor (where the seven churches of Rev 2 & 3 are located ) as well as Egypt Then they expanded west across North Africa and Northwest into Europe. In 1453 they captured Constantinople which became the capital of the Ottoman Empire.
I am certain that a search through history will reveal that as both the capital of the Byzantine and Ottoman empires much bloodshed can be attributed to that city. Take the case of the Armenians for example. This is quite interesting inasmuch as the Arminians were warned by "boy prophet" Efim Gerasemovitch Klubniken in the mid 1800s that disaster would come to their nation. Those who believed fled but over a million Arminians who stayed were massacred by the Turks.
Suppose Zechariah 12:6 is a reference to Israel taking out her near neighbours. The Islamic nations have repeatedly stated their objective is to destroy Israel. Bible prophecy predicts disaster for Damascus and Egypt. The next circle of Islamic nations includes Turkey, Libya, Iran and Sudan - three of which are mentioned in Ezekiel 38 as attacking Israel. Who is Gog? This attack will bring God's judgement on the earth - the blood of all the slain.
Quote from: Sab on May 14, 2010, 05:54:57 PM
Quote from: Peter on May 11, 2010, 06:45:13 AM
There may be a bit of an obstacle to suggesting that Istanbul is the subject of chapter 18, as it would seem that scripture indicates a far broader subject.
Not really because scripture clearly states in seven places that Babylon is a city and to say that it is more than that is to read more into scripture than is there.
Revelation also "clearly states" a reference to a woman in chapter 9 and another in chapter 17. Are they literally women?
It makes reference to a scarlet beast with 7 heads and 10 horns too. Is this a literal animal of some sort?
Quote from: Sab on May 14, 2010, 05:54:57 PM
I'm not saying I can understand how Istanbul is responsible for all the slain on the earth - but then neither is Jerusalem or New York or Baghdad.
That's right. Neither is Rome or any other literal city.
Quote
Revelation also "clearly states" a reference to a woman in chapter 9[sic] and another in chapter 17. Are they literally women?
It makes reference to a scarlet beast with 7 heads and 10 horns too. Is this a literal animal of some sort?
I take it you refer to the woman of chapter 12 not 9. The symbolism of the woman in chapter 12 point to Israel and that she gave birth to Christ. Also it makes it abundantly clear that the persecution of the Jews is inspired by Satan.
Scripture itself gives the interpretation of the
visions of the woman of Rev 17:5 and the beast.
Rev 16:19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.'
Rev 17:18 "And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."
Rev 18:10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.'
Rev 18:16 and saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls!
Rev 18:18 and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, 'What [is] like this great city?'
Rev 18:19 "They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.'
Rev 18:21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw [it] into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore.'
Dan 7:17 'Those great beasts, which are four, [are] four kings [which] arise out of the earth.
Rev 17:9 "Here [is] the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.
Rev 17:10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, [and] the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.
Rev 17:11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.
Rev 17:12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast."
Quote from: Sab on May 20, 2010, 06:06:42 AM
Quote
Revelation also "clearly states" a reference to a woman in chapter 9[sic] and another in chapter 17. Are they literally women?
It makes reference to a scarlet beast with 7 heads and 10 horns too. Is this a literal animal of some sort?
I take it you refer to the woman of chapter 12 not 9. The symbolism of the woman in chapter 12 point to Israel and that she gave birth to Christ. Also it makes it abundantly clear that the persecution of the Jews is inspired by Satan.
Scripture itself gives the interpretation of the visions of the woman of Rev 17:5 and the beast.
You missed the point. I wasn't looking for an explanation of the women. I was pointing out your suggestion that the book of Revelation "clearly states" something, when in fact it is written in the figurative language of a prophetic vision. To illustrate my point I pointed out the women that weren't literal women and the beast wasn't a literal beast.
You can say that since you want to believe that by Babylon is meant the narrow subject of Istanbul, so then it is convenient for you to believe that a single literal city is meant, but rather you seemed to suggest it is can only be a literal city as if it were some sort of proof of your chosen understanding, by suggesting that Revelation "clearly states" it.
Additionally you used it as an argument against
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints,
and of
all that were slain upon the earth.
But then you wrote
"I'm not saying I can understand how Istanbul is responsible for all the slain on the earth - but then neither is Jerusalem or New York or Baghdad."
To which I would suggest that then perhaps you should consider that a literal city is not meant. Just as literal women, and literal beasts, are not meant.
Perhaps something more like all men that share certain attributes are organized and living together in a spiritual sense.
I have been quite busy lately and admittedly have not stated all the reasons I believe Baylon to refer to Istanbul.
Firstly Istanbul was built on 7 hills and was the capital of the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) and Ottoman Empires. (The seven heads are seven hills and the woman that you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth)
The city was clothed in purple - literally - porphyry (purple) is a type of granite that was widely used in building Constantinople. Purple and scarlet indicate it is an imperial city. Only Roman rulers were allowed to wear purple at the time the prophecy was written. Fitting for an Imperial Roman city.
The woman was riding the beast - 'she' controlled the empire.
She had a cup of corruption in her hand. The woman of Rev 17 is the "mother" or source of the corruption/idolatry that entered the church in the 4th century. Mystery religions like Mithraism and the cult of Isis mixed with Christianity.
The beast and the 10 horns hate the whore. This is also documented in history.
QuoteThe aversion of the Latins and Greeks was nourished and manifested in the first three expeditions to the Holy Land. About ten or twelve years after the loss of Jerusalem the nobles of France were again summoned to the holy war, and their enterprise was supported by the powerful Venetians, who had large commercial interests in the East... ...the Latins again besieged and finally stormed Constantinople. Not content with the untold wealth which the pillage of the ancient metropolis yielded, the Latin victors victors wantonly committed atrocities upon its people, desecrated its sanctuaries, destroyed its works of art and burned its books. he literature of the Greeks had almost centered in the metropolis and without computing the extent of our loss, we may drop a tear over the libraries that perished in the triple fire of Constantinople.
(Gibbons decline and Fall of the Roman Empire – A Modern Abridgement. Hadas, Moses, editor; New York, Fawcett, 1987. – p 276-277)
QuoteConstantinople had been left naked and desolate, without a prince or a people. But she could be be spoiled of the incomparable situation which marks her for the metropolis of a great empire and the genius of the place will ever triumph over the accidents of time and fortune,
(Gibbon – p29)
This is a quote from Groliers Encyclopedia (Great Schism)
QuoteLater attempts to reunite the churches foundered on local feeling, and mutual hatred grew through selfish acts on both sides during some parts of the Crusades; the low point was the sacking of Constantinople in 1204 during the Fourth Crusade. The schism continues to the present, but recently serious attempts at mutual understanding have offered the hope of reconciliation.
I used to wonder why the 10 horns would burn her in Rev17:16 and in Rev18:9 weep when they see the smoke of her burning.
Yet if the city is Constantinople this is exactly what happened. Crusaders burned and looted her in 1204 and in 1453 when the Turks took Constantinople Western Europe was terrified that the Ottomans would push on into Europe. Constantinople had been a bulwark against Islam.
Check the following quotes:
Oxford Dictionary of Popes – Nicolas V, p 245
QuoteThen in June 1453 the news of the sack of Constantinople by the Turks (29 May) filled Europe with horror and dread.
QuoteThe importance of Constantinople was felt and magnified in its loss. The pontificate of Nicolas V however peaceful and prosperous, was dishonored by the fall of the Eastern empire and the grief and terror of the Latins revived, or seem to revive, the old enthusiasm of the crusades.Quote(Gibbon – p 299)
18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buys their
merchandise any more:
18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner of vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
18:13 And cinnamon, and odors, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
The following is a description of Constantinople from the December 1983 edition of National Geographic pg 723. Notice the similarity to the quote from Rev 18:12-13.
QuoteBut none of Justinian's cities matched the splendor of his Constantinople.
Medieval visitors from the rural west, where Rome had shrunk to a cow town, were struck dumb by this resplendent Metropolis, home to half a million, its harbor crowded with vessels, its markets filled with silks, spices, furs, precious stones, perfumed woods, carved ivory, gold and silver and enameled jewelry. "One could not believe there was so rich a city in all the world," reported the crusader Villahardouin.
Here is an entry from World Book Encyclopedia, under Byzantine Economy. Every item listed in Rev18:12-13 is listed here. Coincidence?
QuoteMost of the people of the Byzantine Empire lived in villages. They grew grapes, olives, and wheat or herded sheep. Merchants and craft workers practiced their trades in the towns and large cities. The Byzantines imported silks, spices, and luxury goods from China, and furs, slaves, and timber from Western Europe. Constantinople was a successful trading centre because of its ideal location on the Bosporus and its fine port.
The manufacture of silk textiles became an important Byzantine industry during the A.D. 500?s, when silkworms were introduced into the empire. These textiles were exported from Constantinople, along with carved ivory, enamel, glassware, and church doors made of bronze.
Rev 18:21 speaks of the overthrow of this city like an angel throwing a millstone into the sea. Constantinople has been rocked by many great earthquakes through the centuries. It is only 15 miles from the North Anatolian Fault line. Two recent National Geographics (July 2000 and October 2002) carry articles about the earthquake threat to Istanbul. The July 2000 one is titled "Wrath of the Gods" It should be "The Wrath of God". Rev 16:18 "Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake."
The second paragraph of the July 2000 Geographic article is similar:
"The earth came alive with shaking," he says. "The sky turned red, a sword of light flew out of the sea, and a wave as tall as a ship thundered toward us." (pg 36)
A map on pp 58-60 shows the geology of the area. Istanbul is shown to be sitting on an expansion zone. If the plates move apart she is poised to drop into the Sea of Marmara. The October 2002 article is called, "Istanbul on Edge."
Survivor of fires, sultans and plagues, Turkey's largest city navigates economic and political shoals, and braces for the next big quake. (p 112)
A map of Istanbul in the same magazine shows the city divided into three parts. (Rev 16:19)
Apart from this Constantinople was called "The Queen of Cities" as mentioned by Joail.
Quote from: Sab on May 20, 2010, 07:01:58 AM
I have been quite busy lately and admittedly have not stated all the reasons I believe Baylon to refer to Istanbul.
Why not start with how you believe that
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints,
and of
all that were slain upon the earth.
To me that suggests circumstances beginning when Cain slew Able. How about you?
I believe what Peter is trying to show you is that John was using the image of Babylon to illustrate the spirit behind that great evil. That is the only way it is responsible for all the slain. That evil may concentrate in some areas and really manifest itself but it is the spirit behind it we must recognize. I feel the way I do about the RCC because even today it keeps millions of people in spiritual bondage with the traditions that it exhalts over the Word of God. I believe there to be saved Christians in the RCC but I believe them to be saved in spite of it rather than because of it. The RCC has a prescence all over the world. Whether it be as a small mission in some third world country or as a massive Cathedral in a major city. What is worse than having an entity present a false gospel and a false salvation to the masses as the only true Church? I will tell you. Having them capitulate to the beast of Islam while doing it.
To clarify my statement above about a false gospel and false salvation I want to say that I don't believe they use other gospels than Matt, Mark, Luke and John but they do twist and malign them to squeeze out of them a false message. Like the infallibility of the pope or his direct descent from Peter OR the use of Mary as a mediator. Just wanted to clarify that.
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on May 20, 2010, 08:56:16 AM
I believe what Peter is trying to show you is that John was using the image of Babylon to illustrate the spirit behind that great evil. That is the only way it is responsible for all the slain. That evil may concentrate in some areas and really manifest itself but it is the spirit behind it we must recognize.
I believe that spirit is referred to clearly in chapter 12 as Satan - who is behind all lies - However it doesn't say that the interpretation of the woman in chapter 17 is a spirit it says it's a city.
IF we are going to labour the point of
all the earth we could also look at Acts 2 where itt says that Jews came from
every nation under heaven. - So does that mean there were Jews in China or among the American tribes or that they were among the Australian aborigines? And that they went to Jerusalem for Pentecost. That's what it says - Every nation under heaven.
Or we could say that the famine that was predicted in
all the world in Acts 11:28 included every single nation - as it says it happened in the days of Claudius Caesar. Is that correct?
So is Mystery Babylon is resposible for every single murder in history? because this seems to be your point. I don't believe we can hang this charge on Satan entirely either - Would "The Devil made me do it" stand as a defense in the final judgement?
We could try and see the big picture - that if it is a reference to Constantinople/Istanbul we could start by looking at the unrighteous decrees and persecutions that began when the Roman Emperors made paganised Christianity the state religion. Or the wars that were fought to defend her boundaries. Islam arose as a judgement on an idolatrous church - Rev 2:16 Repent or I will come against you with the sword of my mouth, and Rev 3: 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation - Both of these examples are judgement to come for idolatry. And this corrupted form of Christianity came from Constantine's church - based at Constantinople. - so judgement - death - for idolaters - every single person in the Roman Empire had to be a christian after Theodosius - but what sort of Christianity was it? A mix of paganism and Christianity - or you could say it was paganism given christian names - The cult of Isis was resurrected as the cult of Mary.
If we look at the history of Israel in the Old Testament death and judgement came on the nation for sin - particularly idolatry - so what was the cup of abomination Mystery Babylon gave to the world - idolatry is abomination in deuteronomy 7:25 - and in Corinthians we are warned to flee from idolatry - Constantinople embraced idols and relics and corrupted the 'whole world'. The RCC and the various Orthodox are still with us. Their doctrinal differences and jealousies between Rome and Constantinople led to wars. It was this idolatry that Mohammed fought against in the 7th century - ALL of North Africa came under Islamic domination - it had been paganised christianity - when the Ottomans arrived they attacked the same idolatrous system in Asia Minor and Constantinople itself - but the corruption continued - Moscow took on the mantle of third Rome - defender of Orthodoxy - Ivan the Great married the niece of the last Roman Emperor - Sophia Paleologus - The Russians believed God had punished Constantinople for betraying their faith and submitting to Rome - what followed was years of Turko Russian wars - leading right up to World War 1 - Russian Communist leaders tried to suppress this same religion but it went underground till Glasnost. Who was behind the pogroms? What idolatrous system was behind the Inquisition? The Reformation was a reaction to this same idolatry - what was the result? More wars. - so we've had century after century of wars - yes, we could say - The Devil did it - But if the things that happened to Israel were examples to the church - not to fall into the same error - why not see what happened in the history of 'the church' - it fell into exactly the same error. Idolatry has plagued the church since earliest times but it was institutionalised by the successors of Constantine - and what was his city???
Constantinople.
I just don't think it's particularly schorlarly to say it's an evil spirit simply because you're stuck on that one verse.
QuoteI believe that spirit is referred to clearly in chapter 12 as Satan - who is behind all lies - However it doesn't say that the interpretation of the woman in chapter 17 is a spirit it says it's a city.
And you are missing the point. John used symbols all throughout Revelation to make his point. And he did so using language his audience would have been familiar with. Such as the beast=kingdom imagery people would have seen in Daniel. There are indeed cities that manifest evil particularly well and Rome is one such city. At the time Rome was already known as the "whore of Babylon" by many Jews because of the idolatry and mystery religions that permeated her.
QuoteIF we are going to labour the point of all the earth we could also look at Acts 2 where itt says that Jews came from every nation under heaven. - So does that mean there were Jews in China or among the American tribes or that they were among the Australian aborigines? And that they went to Jerusalem for Pentecost. That's what it says - Every nation under heaven.[
Or we could say that the famine that was predicted in all the world in Acts 11:28 included every single nation - as it says it happened in the days of Claudius Caesar. Is that correct?
So is Mystery Babylon is resposible for every single murder in history? because this seems to be your point. I don't believe we can hang this charge on Satan entirely either - Would "The Devil made me do it" stand as a defense in the final judgement?
No. My point is that a system such as Catholicism as a whole, which is based and operates out of Rome, fits the description of all slain in the earth better than the city Constantinople. Which today is an Islamic city and not a pseudo-Christian entity whoring itself to the world like Rome is. Rome continues to fulfill this role better. It is really hard to attribute the blood of the martyrs to Constantinople when it wasn't even brought into the killing game until much later. Rome was killing martyrs from the moment they nailed Jesus to the cross. And if it wasn't for Rome birthing this pagan-Christianity and in turn creating all the branch off pagan Christianities that resulted from the schisms created by that system Constantinople wouldn't even be an issue right now.
QuoteAnd this corrupted form of Christianity came from Constantine's church - based at Constantinople. - so judgement - death - for idolaters - every single person in the Roman Empire had to be a christian after Theodosius - but what sort of Christianity was it? A mix of paganism and Christianity - or you could say it was paganism given christian names - The cult of Isis was resurrected as the cult of Mary.
Constantine's Church that he helped create is based in Rome and with the exceptions of a few bleeps in history(Avignone and the anti-pope scandal) has maintained its' base in Rome. It is still there still supporting his heresy.
QuoteIf we look at the history of Israel in the Old Testament death and judgement came on the nation for sin - particularly idolatry - so what was the cup of abomination Mystery Babylon gave to the world - idolatry is abomination in deuteronomy 7:25 - and in Corinthians we are warned to flee from idolatry - Constantinople embraced idols and relics and corrupted the 'whole world'. The RCC and the various Orthodox are still with us. Their doctrinal differences and jealousies between Rome and Constantinople led to wars. It was this idolatry that Mohammed fought against in the 7th century -
No. Mohammed fought to institute his own brand of idolatry. And because of him 1.2 billion people today bow to a black rock. He was an opportunist and used many of the same tactics Constantine did to help facillitate conversion. Primarily among them instituting pre-existing pagan practices into his new religion. The irony of your statement is that you mention the fact that the RCC is still with us and continue in there heresy yet it doesn't seem to occur to you that for that very reason, that Rome is still running the show, Constantinople is a poor fit. All of the physical features you have mentioned about Istanbul is true of Rome. The difference is Rome is still here as the spiritual capital of that false system and continues to keep 1 billion people in its' religious bondage. The kings of the earth historically have capitulated to Rome. Today we can see how Rome like it always has absorbs the culture around it in order to perserve itself. That is why you see the Pope endorsing false religions like Islam. Rome is a whore and always has been.
QuoteALL of North Africa came under Islamic domination - it had been paganised christianity - when the Ottomans arrived they attacked the same idolatrous system in Asia Minor and Constantinople itself - but the corruption continued - Moscow took on the mantle of third Rome - defender of Orthodoxy - Ivan the Great married the niece of the last Roman Emperor - Sophia Paleologus - The Russians believed God had punished Constantinople for betraying their faith and submitting to Rome - what followed was years of Turko Russian wars - leading right up to World War 1 - Russian Communist leaders tried to suppress this same religion but it went underground till Glasnost. Who was behind the pogroms? What idolatrous system was behind the Inquisition? The Reformation was a reaction to this same idolatry - what was the result? More wars. - so we've had century after century of wars - yes, we could say - The Devil did it - But if the things that happened to Israel were examples to the church - not to fall into the same error - why not see what happened in the history of 'the church' - it fell into exactly the same error. Idolatry has plagued the church since earliest times but it was institutionalised by the successors of Constantine - and what was his city??? Constantinople.
I agree with much of what you have said. But the system he created was and is based out of Rome. Despite how important Constantinople was it was never the capital of the religious system that Constantine created. It became the capital of his empire but never the "church". Later a branch off pseudo-christian system took it as there capital, namely the eastern orthodox, but the religious system Constantine founded was done so in Rome. And the papacy had influence that Constantine could never have because emporers come and go but the papacy has lasted.
From wikipedia
Rome remained the capital of the Papal States until its annexation by the Kingdom of Italy in 1870; the city became a major pilgrimage site during the Middle Ages and the focus of struggles between the Papacy and the Holy Roman Empire starting with Charlemagne, who was crowned its first emperor in Rome in 800 by Pope Leo III. Apart from brief periods as an independent city during the Middle Ages, Rome kept its status as Papal capital and "holy city" for centuries, even when the Papacy briefly relocated to Avignon (1309–1377).
Rome has and always will be the seat of the first great and persistent Christianized paganism. The eastern orthodox and others were born out of her. Hence Mother of Harlots.
QuoteI just don't think it's particularly schorlarly to say it's an evil spirit simply because you're stuck on that one verse.
I'm not stuck on that verse. And I have no problem revising my interpretation if I see a satisfactory case made for a more fitting interpretation. But the best case scenario for Constantinople being Mystery Babylon still pales in comparison to how well Rome and the false church she represents fits the bill.
God bless.
Quote from: Sab on May 20, 2010, 10:47:36 PM
I just don't think it's particularly schorlarly to say it's an evil spirit ....
We are saying babylon the great is a group - as a city - composed of men that have shared characteristics and were responsible for such as is described. As a spiritual condition of part of mankind. In context perhaps men that have been lured into the world, and into the things of this world, and away from the kingdom of God.
Broadly speaking, I see the LBL beast of Revelation 13 describing the
physical and historical
conditions that brought mankind to this point.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=12.0
From Israel (or Egypt) through Islamic empire dominance of the middle east, or John's whole "world".
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=13.0
I see the similarly described scarlet beast, detailing the
spiritual condition of mankind, through the same period. The 7 heads representing the same 7 kingdoms in both cases.
Quote from: Sab on May 20, 2010, 10:47:36 PM... simply because you're stuck on that one verse.
So then it
is "particularly scholarly" to simply ignore it?
Who are the children, of what fathers that killed the prophets, is
Jesus referring to here?
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which
killed the prophets.
Luk 11:47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
So when we read
Rev 18:24 And in her was found
the blood of prophets, and of
saints, and of
all that were slain upon the earth.
are we are supposed to say "Well verse 18.24 really means
except for the old covenant prophets because if they're included it doesn't fit what I've created for myself to believe."?
"And, well, for that matter I guess it can't include the new covenant prophets either."
Should we make a list of all of the prophets that were killed in Istanbul?
Deu 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with
ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them.
"Well it can't mean
those saints."
QuoteRev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
are we are supposed to say "Well verse 18.24 really means except for the old covenant prophets because if they're included it doesn't fit what I've created for myself to believe."?
"And, well, for that matter I guess it can't include the new covenant prophets either."
Should we make a list of all of the prophets that were killed in Istanbul?
Deu 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them.
"Well it can't mean those saints."
And exactly which Old Testament prophets were killed by Rome? or by any empire that we now see on earth? And does that mean by implication that there have been no prophets in the New Covenant era - that's pretty unfortunate for us all isn't it. But then we might as well completely ignore that it says in seven places that the woman is a city. That's not very Berean is it. So it isn't the continuous historic interpretation that is promoted here but the Spiritual/idealist one.
Quote from: Sab on May 23, 2010, 03:05:57 AM
QuoteRev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
are we are supposed to say "Well verse 18.24 really means except for the old covenant prophets because if they're included it doesn't fit what I've created for myself to believe."?
"And, well, for that matter I guess it can't include the new covenant prophets either."
Should we make a list of all of the prophets that were killed in Istanbul?
Deu 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them.
"Well it can't mean those saints."
And exactly which Old Testament prophets were killed by Rome? or by any empire that we now see on earth?
Maybe you are beginning to see the point. It can't be a single city, or a single empire - historical or present day - can it? The subject would seem much broader than that -
because it is described as being much broader than that. Rev 18:24 And in her was found
the blood of prophets, and of
saints, and of
all that were slain upon the earth.
That is why I explained babylon the great as follows, but you seem to have missed it.
"We are saying babylon the great is a group - as a city - composed of men that have shared characteristics and were responsible for [and are attracted to] such as is described. As a shared spiritual condition of part of mankind. In context perhaps men that have been lured into the world, and into the things of this world, and away from the kingdom of God."
That understanding is inclusive of when Cain slew Able, isn't it? It also includes ALL of the slain. ALL of the slain prophets, and ALL of the slain saints, doesn't it?
It describes a "generation" of men, in the Koine Greek metaphorical sense (group of men with shared attributes).
Maybe this will help
cityNew Testament Greek Definition:
4172 polis {pol'-is}
probably from the same as 4171, or perhaps from 4183;
TDNT - 6:516,906; n f
AV - city 164; 164
1) a city
1a) one's native city, the city in which one lives
1b) the heavenly Jerusalem
1b1) the abode of the blessed in heaven
1b2) of the visible capital in the heavenly kingdom, to come
down to earth after the renovation of the world by fire
1c) the inhabitants of a city
Does it help to see babylon the great, as the city that is the opposite of that city in heaven? The total of the kingdoms and people that are
of this world, as opposed to those in the kingdom of God? Particularly since the kingdoms of this world have been Satan's legal property ever since Adam's fall.
And you've yet to explain how Istanbul fits Rev 18.24. Why not give it a try?
How do you understand Istanbul fitting that verse?Quote from: Sab on May 23, 2010, 03:05:57 AMAnd does that mean by implication that there have been no prophets in the New Covenant era - that's pretty unfortunate for us all isn't it.
Not at all, by my understanding. The above explanation includes ALL of the new covenant prophets and saints that were slain as well!
Quote from: Sab on May 23, 2010, 03:05:57 AMBut then we might as well completely ignore that it says in seven places that the woman is a city.
We can't ignore it but rather have to understand it in context. But you seem to want to continue to ignore entire verses of that context.
We are stuck trying to understand what is meant, through the way it is described.
Look at what you wrote yourself. When, in a literal world, is a woman a city?
The volume of incidences of a term is irrelevant.
The term "temple of God" is mentioned a number of times in the New Testament too.
Does the sheer volume of incidents then, require that we understand it as a literal temple, for all of those references?
Quote from: Sab on May 23, 2010, 03:05:57 AMThat's not very Berean is it.
Trying to force scripture into one's personal, preconceived notion, is what is not very Berean.
Neither is treating verses as if they don't exist, because they don't fit what we wish to believe.
Quote from: Sab on May 23, 2010, 03:05:57 AMSo it isn't the continuous historic interpretation that is promoted here .......
It isn't a "promotion". There are categories for futurism and preterism available for folks that wish to defend those views. I used to be a futurist. So did resisting. I still have a box full of Jack Van Impe tapes. There isn't a category for Idealist, I guess because I personally never ran into one in all of my internet travels. Though some preterists did pretty good imitations (like their explanation of the false prophet).
Quote from: Sab on May 23, 2010, 03:05:57 AM.... but the Spiritual/idealist one.
Applying the continuous historic context to the book of Revelation suggests understanding that John's prophecy would be
fulfilled steadily, from the time John penned the book, until the return of Christ.
Just like the "beasts" of Daniel's prophetic dream unfolded steadily, in succession, spanning hundreds of years in Daniel's future.
I hold the continuous historic context uniformly, for both Old and New Testament prophecy. Through that context I understand that Mohammed is
the false prophet mentioned, and his Islamic empire the "beast" of Revelation 13, for example. This began to be fulfilled 1400 years ago. Though other aspects of that beast began to be fulfilled far longer ago than that.
And Daniel's beasts were not literal beasts just as John's beasts are not to be understood literally. They are described through the
figurative language of a prophetic vision.
In the middle ages there was a movement in the church to understood the book of Revelation literally too. They came to believe that John's beasts were literal and would roam the earth.
I showed you how your view didn't fit on one level, and then when you insisted, on how it doesn't fit through two more points, with all 3 points conveniently contained in a single verse. I only used that verse because that alone, would seem to make Istanbul, a non-starter.
But now you seem to be wanting to claim a "literal hermeneutic" in your effort to justify nullifying a verse you don't like. Futurists sometimes profess a literal hermeneutic too. The problem is that just about as soon as they make the rule, for the book of Revelation, they are compelled to break it. It goes something like this.
"Well the book of Revelation is to be taken literally. Except, of course, for the parts that don't fit John Nelson Darby's doctrine, then those parts are to be understood figuratively, with free license to assign any meaning I want to them that supports my doctrine, regardless of how the figures are otherwise defined through scripture."
Try this.
Please explain what
literal woman is it that is described in Revelation 9.6
QuoteTry this.
Please explain what literal woman is it that is described in Revelation 9.6
Rev 9:6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.
Quote from: SAB on May 26, 2010, 11:32:24 PM
QuoteTry this.
Please explain what literal woman is it that is described in Revelation 9.6
Rev 9:6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.
Indeed! I guess that was hard to figure out with my incorrect verse reference.
Rev 12:6 And
the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.
Is that a literal woman or do you hold, as you might suggest, a "Spiritual/idealist" view?
The woman/wife is always compared as the "spirit" of the people of God. No that doesn't mean "Israel" either ethnically or geographically. It means the "spirit" of the people, in other words, the church, its gospel, what it's meant to do. Ephesians 5:21-25, as well as the rest of the chapter for additional reading, compares the relationship between a man and his wife, and Christ and the church.
Now in the Old Testament, this entity of "God's people/church" is simultaneously called a harlot. The harlot is the corrupted aspect, the actions, behaviors, thoughts, of the people of God, or his church. In the Old Testament era, the church WAS Israel. All its members were Jews mostly living within it. But with the New Testament, the true doctrine was Christianity, and thus the wife became the Christian church and its members, while the corrupted part of that was the doppelganger, the harlot.
Now isn't it fitting that the harlot is a church sitting on seven-hills? Because the church of Rome has always sat on Rome, which is indeed on seven hills.
It's strange however, that JERUSALEM also sits on seven hills. The only issues are that the Christians and even Jews never "controlled the Earth" from Jerusalem and did not own it for too long either. Then there is 1 Peter 5:13. In it, Peter and Marcus send greetings to the people from the church of BABYLON. What could that mean? Well we know that Peter was the first bishop of Rome. It's understandable that Rome would thus be nicknamed "Babylon" by early Christians like Peter and John. And it fits in with the "corrupted church" thing. The Catholic church was still physically the "church of God" (always kept the structure and inheritance) and always will be. But no longer was it spiritually. I believe that it is this that is represented by the woman which was brought up into the wilderness for 1260 years. That the spirit of the church of God, it's true doctrines and full gospel was no longer on Earth for 1260 years.
Now someone said that the 12 stars on the woman's crown represent the twelve tribes which must mean that she is automatically Israel. It could be, but can't it also be the twelve apostles? Read this before accusing me of being wrong:
Revelation 5:6 — And i beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
These "spirits" are the bishops of the seven churches mentioned earlier in the book which are located in Anatolia AKA Asia Minor AKA Turkey. Now how important where these bishops to Christianity, enough to be symbolized as facial features of the Lamb himself? I don't know, but to me it seems that, since the book is actually more of an epistle sent to the churches in Asia Minor as the primary audience, then perhaps some of the symbolism would also be appropriate to the era. 12 stars meaning twelve apostles isn't impossible. Even if it meant "the church", twelve tribes wouldn't disprove that to mean "Israel" either. Furthermore, if the harlot is the Catholic church, then wouldn't the woman also be a church, based on the above understanding?