Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. {in...: or, as for the Almighty God, in his seat he shall honour yea, he shall honour a god, whom, etc} {estate: or, stead} {pleasant: Heb. things desired} {forces: or, munitions: Heb. Mauzzim, or, God's protectors} 39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge [and] increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. {most...: Heb. fortresses of munitions} {gain: Heb. a price} 40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. {glorious...: or, goodly, etc.: Heb. land of delight, or, ornament} 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. {stretch...: Heb. send forth} 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians [shall be] at his steps. 44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. {glorious...: or, goodly, etc.: Heb. mountain of delight of holiness}
Quote from: Peter on April 28, 2010, 04:44:03 PM
Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; .....
Like Mohammed
Quote from: Peter on April 28, 2010, 04:44:03 PM.... and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god,.....
Like what Muhammad accomplished in the hearts and minds of Muslims for 1400 years and another 1.5 billion in the world today.
Quote from: Peter on April 28, 2010, 04:44:03 PM..... and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods,.....
Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 INDEED YE HAVE PUT FORTH A THING MOST MONSTROUS!
Surah 9.30 THE JEWS CALL "UZAIR A SON OF ALLAH, AND THE CHRISTIANS CALL CHRIST THE SON OF ALLAH..... ALLAH'S CURSE BE ON THEM: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "WE KILLED CHRIST Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- BUT THEY KILLED HIM NOT, NOR CRUCIFIED HIM, but so it was made to appear... FOR OF A SURETY THEY KILLED HIM NOT
Quote from: Peter on April 28, 2010, 04:44:03 PM.... and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers,.....
Indeed not. Of NOBODY'S father except moon god worshipers. The moon god of the Arabian Star Family.
Quote from: Peter on April 28, 2010, 04:44:03 PM.... nor the desire of women,......
Few men in history have cared less about the desires that women may have. With multiple wives and wife beating enshrined in the Quran, girls receiving 1/2 the inheritance of their brothers, women treated as chattel to be traded off to whomever the parents, or brothers, say they should marry, and on and on.....
http://beholdthebeast.com/women_in_islam.htm
Quote from: Peter on April 28, 2010, 04:44:03 PM...... nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Which is exactly what he accomplished.
Quote from: Peter on April 28, 2010, 04:44:03 PM38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces:.....
Who has done a better job of honoring that jealous fallen angel?
Quote from: Peter on April 28, 2010, 04:44:03 PM.... and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
All stolen from others as "spoils of war booty". Confiscating 1/5 of all plundered property, women, and girls, for himself and his "Allah".
Sura 8:69 But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good: but fear Allah: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Sura 8:41 And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war),
a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger...Surah 59:7
What Allah has bestowed on His Messenger (and taken away) from the people of the townships,- belongs to Allah,- to His Messenger and to kindred and orphans, the needy and the wayfarer; In order that it may not (merely) make a circuit between the wealthy among you. So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment.
Quote from: Peter on April 28, 2010, 04:44:03 PM{in...: or, as for the Almighty God, in his seat he shall honour yea, he shall honour a god, whom, etc} {estate: or, stead} {pleasant: Heb. things desired} {forces: or, munitions: Heb. Mauzzim, or, God's protectors} 39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge [and] increase with glory:......
Indeed. Through satanic deception he repackaged the moon god into a palatable wrapper and increased him with glory.
Quote from: Peter on April 28, 2010, 04:44:03 PM...... and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
He did over and over in spades. Dividing the land, property and newly enslaved between he and his fellow reprobates.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=856.0
Quote from: Peter on April 28, 2010, 04:44:03 PM{most...: Heb. fortresses of munitions} {gain: Heb. a price} 40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. {glorious...: or, goodly, etc.: Heb. land of delight, or, ornament} 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. {stretch...: Heb. send forth} 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians [shall be] at his steps.
Found a cool antique map just now with the first jihad separated by caliphates through 750 AD. The Islamic Empire had expanded further as you can see the location of Tours France on the map, where the First Islamic Jihad received it's death blow in 732, exactly 100 years after Mohammed died.
http://www.shadowedrealm.com/maps/political/
(http://petewaldo.com/075bc480.jpg)
Quote from: Peter on April 28, 2010, 04:44:03 PM44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. {glorious...: or, goodly, etc.: Heb. mountain of delight of holiness}
(http://www.beholdthebeast.com/1f5a3aa0.png)
Some prophesies have a double fulfillment is Scripture, and if Dan 11 was fulfilled somewhat by Muhammad, it certainly will be fulfilled again by the final anti-christ. The prophesy of Dan 11 continues on with Dan 12 which concerns what will happen at the end of the age to the Jewish people living in the land God gave to Abraham and his descendants.
I believe Dan 11-12 also parallels the prophesy of Zech 12-14 when/where the Lord Jesus will go forth to fight against the nations gathered against Jerusalem. "Everyone who is found written in the book (of life) will be rescued" (Dan 12:1).
Blessings
Quote from: John 10:10 on April 28, 2010, 11:22:05 PM
Some prophesies have a double fulfillment is Scripture, and if Dan 11 was fulfilled somewhat by Muhammad, it certainly will be fulfilled again by the final anti-christ. The prophesy of Dan 11 continues on with Dan 12 which concerns what will happen at the end of the age to the Jewish people living in the land God gave to Abraham and his descendants.
I believe Dan 11-12 also parallels the prophesy of Zech 12-14 when/where the Lord Jesus will go forth to fight against the nations gathered against Jerusalem. "Everyone who is found written in the book (of life) will be rescued" (Dan 12:1).
Blessings
If this "the" "antichrist", is a single man that you expect to come in the future, where else do you find reference to him? Anywhere in the New Testament, for example?
My understanding certainly isn't without warts, not the least of which is reference to "time of the end", unless we look at Mohammed as a shadow king still ruling. Nobody can deny that Mohammed (through Satan and the spirit of antichrist) is still in full control of the hearts and minds of 1.5 billion people - 1/4 of mankind even though his corpse still lies rotting in it's shallow grave. Who IS the second in command of Mohammedanism? Nobody.
This only just now occurred to me but it seems to bring some clarity to the passage.
I do view the Islamic kingdom "beast" as a single entity, and use the same male gender that Daniel assigned to his kingdom beasts.
Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth [were of] iron, and his nails [of] brass; [which] devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
For that matter, I also believe the Islamic empire is described as a "king" as well as "beast" in John's 8 "kings"/"beasts.
Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
"..... it is said, five of the seven Kings are fallen, and one is, and another is not yet come; and the Beast that was and is not, being wounded to death with a sword, he is the eighth, and of the seven: he was therefore a collateral part of the seventh." - Isaac Newton
(I understand that "wounding to death" as being the Battle of Tours which was the deathknell of the Islamic First Jihad, with the Islamic beast much later being "healed" through transfer of western wealth to the beast in oil development and subsequent purchase.)
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=83.msg216#msg216
http://beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#daniel_1335_days
To discuss this wounding and healing of the LBL beast please go to that thread
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=12.0
To discuss John's 8 beasts/kings please go to that thread.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=13.0
Halley's Bible Handbook (1927) "As to verses 36-45: Antiochus Epiphanes? Or Mohammedan Possession of Holy Land? Or Antichrist? Or all three?"
I believe Jesus spoke of this coming antichrist in Matt 24:15 which is a reference to Dan 9:27 which says,
"and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."
John 2:18 says, "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour."
I believe John reveals the "beast" of Rev 13 and 19 as this coming antichrist.
Time will tell if there will be a coming "single antichrist" who will fulfill Dan 7:25, and also fulfill the above prophesies. I just want to be prepared to be an overcomer as our Lord has called us to be.
Blessings
Quote from: John 10:10 on April 29, 2010, 10:12:08 AM
I believe Jesus spoke of this coming antichrist in Matt 24:15 which is a reference to Dan 9:27 which says,
"and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."
We learn from Mark that the abomination of desolation is an IT, not a him.
Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where
it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/abomination_of_desolation.htm
Quote from: John 10:10 on April 29, 2010, 10:12:08 AM
John 2:18 says, "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour."
I believe John reveals the "beast" of Rev 13 and 19 as this coming antichrist.
How so? In the very same verse he declares that even at the time he was writing there were many antichrists.
Look at it hermeneutically.
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as
ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
How could the above verse make any sense if the first use of the term antichrist were supposed to be an individual person as "The" "Antichrist", when six words later we learn there are many antichrists? This is the only verse of the only 4 verses that contain the term "antichrist" that can be construed to indicate a single individual. Let's develop our understanding by looking to another verse that also uses the term antichrist in a singular fashion:
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is
that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof
ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
You can see the singular "that", "spirit", "it" in this sentence and singular "antichrist", just like the singular "antichrist" in 1 John 2:18. The translators gave us a little extra push in 1 John 4:3 by inserting the word [spirit] a second time, further clarifying that the spirit of antichrist is this singular entity. Now look at how this makes the "little children" verse make perfect sense if, when you get to the first use of term antichrist, you understand it as THE SPIRIT OF antichrist:
John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that [the spirit of] antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Finally look also at how beautifully parallel these two verse snippets are:
"ye have heard that antichrist shall come"
"ye have heard that it should come"
Pretty clear to me that the singular use in the verse you cited is talking about the spirit of antichrist.
I believe going beyond that, is a great leap of presumption, for the purpose of making it conform to doctrine.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/antichrist.htm
Quote from: John 10:10 on April 29, 2010, 10:12:08 AM
Time will tell if there will be a coming "single antichrist" who will fulfill Dan 7:25, and also fulfill the above prophesies. I just want to be prepared to be an overcomer as our Lord has called us to be.
Blessings[/b]
But I believe that Darby's doctrine has done the opposite. We have 80 million evangelicals that believe that Jesus delays His return at least 7 years by virtue of the fact that they haven't been raptured yet. What this offers to unrepentant wanna be's, or wish they were's, is the allure of judgment deferred. Put off repenting until they see folks disappear in the "rapture". Folks believing that everyone in the world who is for a fabled antichrist must first get a computer chip implanted and other such fantastic nonsense. Like the whole world will see planes fall from the sky with no pilots, cars crash into trees with no drivers, and they somehow still wouldn't be expected to understand that they have exactly 7 years left before Jesus' return.
Compare that with an ethnographic view of John's whole "world". If that mark is the spirit of antichrist in the foreheads - minds - of Mohammed's followers, then virtually everybody in what was John's whole "world" already carries the mark of the beast.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=510.0
(http://www.beholdthebeast.com/1ead4250.png)
That means that enough prophecy has been fulfilled to herald the FINAL RETURN - FINAL JUDGMENT - of Jesus Christ right now! Isn't that the kind of view that
best prepares someone for the imminent return of Christ?
And prepares us for keeping on until then, by really understanding Islam as the end-time foe of God's people, instead of looking for some bogeyman of some distant future someday?
Strong's
worldNew Testament Greek Definition:
3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay}
feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by
implication of 1093); TDNT - 5:157,674; n f
AV - world 14, earth 1; 15
1) the inhabited earth
1a)
the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in
distinction from the lands of the barbarians1b)
the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire1c) the whole inhabited earth, the world
1d) the inhabitants of the earth, men
2) the universe, the world
I don't understand why you are so against the "possibility" of there coming an "antichrist" who will fulfill the prophesies of Dan 7:25, 2 Thess 2:8, becoming the "beast" of Rev 13 & 19?
I'm not sure what you mean by Darby's doctrine and "80 million evangelicals that believe that Jesus delays His return at least 7 years by virtue of the fact that they haven't been raptured yet." I believe Jesus comes once at the end of the age, and according to Matthew 13:41 & 49, the unrighteous are taken out first for judgment.
Blessings
Quote from: John 10:10 on April 29, 2010, 02:16:57 PM
I don't understand why you are so against the "possibility" of there coming an "antichrist" who will fulfill the prophesies of Dan 7:25, 2 Thess 2:8, becoming the "beast" of Rev 13 & 19?
It isn't about what I am for or against but rather what I believe scripture allows. However from where I stand today I can see how Darby's doctrine blinded the church and made Islam virtually invisible to it. Or at least certainly more invisible than their "The" "Antichrist" bogeyman. ALL unsound doctrine is the work of the enemy and I believe that's the fruit of this one.
I held Darby's 7 year tribulation doctrine myself for a dozen or so years. The bible tells us to "prove all things".
It is hermeneutically unsound to suggest that the "beast" is a man since scripture already defined it in the book of Daniel as a kingdom, at least when used in the figurative language of a dream or vision in prophecy.
Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth...
Particularly unsound since the figures of lion, bear and leopard are used together only twice in scripture, and both times they are in the context of a dream or vision.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=12.0
If you didn't get a chance to before, why don't you review those threads on beasts?
the LBL beast
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=12.0
John's 8 beasts/kings
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=13.0
Quote from: John 10:10 on April 29, 2010, 02:16:57 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by Darby's doctrine and "80 million evangelicals that believe that Jesus delays His return at least 7 years by virtue of the fact that they haven't been raptured yet."
Well the vast majority of that group hold a doctrine penned by a guy named John Nelson Darby in the mid-19th century. He borrowed concepts and pieces of it from dubious prior authors.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=499.0
An almost as vast majority also hold a pre-trib rapture doctrine which means they must believe that Jesus delays His second coming at least 7 years, because they haven't been "raptured" yet, and it will be 7 years after they are raptured that Jesus returns.
Unfortunately there is no historical evidence that the church held Darby's 7 year tribulation, or pre-trib rapture, etc. etc. prior to when it left Darby's pen in the mid 1800s.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=7.0
Quote from: John 10:10 on April 29, 2010, 02:16:57 PM
I don't understand why you are so against the "possibility" of there coming an "antichrist" who will fulfill the prophesies of Dan 7:25, 2 Thess 2:8, becoming the "beast" of Rev 13 & 19?
That "man of sin" of Thess 2:3 cannot be "The" "Antichrist" because he "sitteth in the temple of God". That has only been one location since the cross.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that
ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
While dreams and visions in prophecy are widely open to interpretation, the above verse is absolutely not.
man of sin
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=417.0
temple of god
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=103.0
I do believe from Thess 2:8 forward THE LIE that is discussed, and people deceived, may well be a reference to Mohammedanism.
Here's a verse by verse of Rev 13 as I understand it. (though that is a year or more ago that I wrote it and may likely revise it in light of what I continue to learn)
http://beholdthebeast.com/leopard_bear_lion_beast.htm
Who do you believe THE false prophet of Revelation to be?
Whoever the "lawless one" of 2 Thess 2:8 is, he will slain by the Lord at His 2nd coming.
Whoever the beast of Rev 13 & 19 is, this beast is seized and thrown into the lake of fire at our Lord's 2nd coming.
It's hard for me to see how the "lawless one" and the "beast" are not persons who are yet to arrive on the world's scene, and in fact could be the same person that many Christians consider will be the "final antichrist."
I fully recognize the danger of Islam as it has invaded our world for the past 1400 years, but tying Scriptural prophesies of Dan 7:25, 2 Thess 2:8, and Rev 13 & 19 to past Islamic fulfillment does not line up with events that will happen just prior to our Lord's 2nd coming where a "lawless one" will be slain, and a "beast" will be thrown into the lake of fire.
Blessings
Quote from: John 10:10 on April 29, 2010, 03:56:45 PM
Whoever the "lawless one" of 2 Thess 2:8 is, he will slain by the Lord at His 2nd coming.
Whoever the beast of Rev 13 & 19 is, this beast is seized and thrown into the lake of fire at our Lord's 2nd coming.
It's hard for me to see how the "lawless one" and the "beast" are not persons who are yet to arrive on the world's scene, and in fact could be the same person that many Christians consider will be the "final antichrist."
I fully understand that because I once stood in your shoes. But your quote "final antichrist", for example, certainly doesn't come from scripture.
However, today it is unimaginable to me that -
purely because of a 19th century doctrine that Christians have been taught - they
must necessarily exclude even from consideration that Mohammed could be THE false prophet, yet that's just what your doctrine
has absolutely prevented you from being allowed to believe.
This gets to the question you had earlier as to what I had against your doctrine. I see it as causing almost hopeless eschatological blindness in the body of Christ - whether preterists or futurists - purely because of these two doctrines that were popularized in the 20th century church.
But through the TRADITIONAL continuous-historic (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=14.0) context it is easy to see Mohammed as THE false prophet, and his murderous Islamic Empire as the kingdom "beast" John discusses, in light of Mohammed's 1400 year record of success, in leading millions to perdition specifically in the spirit of antichrist, while denying Jesus shed blood, as primary tenants of His 7th century antichrist religion. Claiming another 1.5 billion souls as I write. The perfect OPPOSITE of the Gospel (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0). The ONLY anti-another-religion, religion. Islam is to Christianity as the negative is to a photograph.
Quote from: John 10:10 on April 29, 2010, 03:56:45 PMI fully recognize the danger of Islam as it has invaded our world for the past 1400 years, but tying Scriptural prophesies of Dan 7:25, 2 Thess 2:8, and Rev 13 & 19 to past Islamic fulfillment does not line up with events that will happen just prior to our Lord's 2nd coming where a "lawless one" will be slain, and a "beast" will be thrown into the lake of fire.
Blessings
Are you maybe forgetting the resurrection of the dead at final judgment?
Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead,
both of the just and unjust.Revelation 19:20 And the beast {Islamic Empire} was taken, and with him {kingdom/beast is a "his" in Daniel} the false prophet [Mohammed] that wrought miracles [Quran] before him, [this means "in the presence of" the beast - Islam - Muslims] with which he deceived them {Muslims} that had received the mark {666} of the beast, and them {Muslims} that worshipped his image. {today's Islam and second Jihad in the image of the Islamic First Jihad. Jihad is the pinnacle of worship (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ei=nvzZS_mlF4H68AaupNlW&sa=X&oi=spellfullpage&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=2&ved=0CAYQvwUoAQ&q=jihad+pinnacle+worship&spell=1) in Islam} These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
In this rare instance, the NKJV does a little better job of this portion of this verse:
(NKJV) Revelation 19:20 ...and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence...
The Greek word "
semeion" translated as "miracles" and "signs" is defined in Strong's as "
that by which a person is distinguished from others and is known". That makes Mohammed a perfect fit for the false prophet, since he is his known for his Quran, and has without question been distinguished from others by it for 1400 years.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them {Muslims} was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast {Islamic Empire} and the false prophet {Mohammed} [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
http://beawatchman.blogspot.com/2008/10/ellis-skolfield-end-of-days-islam-and.html
Quote from: Peter on April 28, 2010, 04:44:03 PM
Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; .....
Quote from: Peter on April 28, 2010, 04:44:03 PM...... nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Which is exactly what he accomplished.
Peter you have said many of the things I considered the other day when I first read Daniel 11 in an attempt to answer the initial question. I feel like some expounding may be needed to help people understand things here and so I wish to share some verses from the koran that show that Muhammad did indeed magnify himself above all.
For all of his admissions about being subservient to God Muhammad constantly equated obedience to him with that of obedience to his Allah.
"O you who believe, obey All'h and His Messenger ... " (8:20) "Say: obey All'h and obey the Messenger ... " (24:54) He says, "Obey All'h and the Messenger and perhaps you will be shown mercy." (3:132) "If you obey him, you will be guided ... " (24:54) "Whoever obeys the Messenger has obeyed All'h ... " (4:79) "That what the Messenger brings you and leave what he forbids you ... " (59:7) "Whoever obeys All'h and the Messenger is with those whom All'h has blessed." (4:68) "We did not send any Messenger but for him to be obeyed by the permission of All'h." (4:63)
It was a clever plan. Once he had everyone convinced of Allah's supremacy he cut himself in on the power and authority. Just like when he cut himself in on the booty. Which is ludicrous to think God wants gold and silver to start with. What would he do with it? Ah, but Muhammad had plenty he could do with it.
Also I believe at some point this chapter deals less with Muhammad specifically and deals with what he perpetuated. Islam. And here is why.
Dan 11:26 Yea, they that feed 398 of the portion of his meat 6598 shall destroy 7665 him, and his army 2428 shall overflow 7857 : and many 7227 shall fall 5307 down slain 2491.
That is exactly how Muhammad met his end. Notice that the death of this king did not stop the expansion of his army or its' killing.
Dan 11:30 For the ships 6716 of Chittim 3794 shall come 935 against him: therefore he shall be grieved 3512 , and return 7725 , and have indignation 2194 against the holy 6944 covenant 1285: so shall he do 6213 ; he shall even return 7725 , and have intelligence 995 with them that forsake 5800 the holy 6944 covenant 1285.
This is very interesting too. I looked up Chittim and this is what came up.
Chittim or Kittim = "bruisers"
1) a general term for all islanders of the Mediterranean Sea
2) the descendants of Javan, the son of Japheth and grandson of Noah
The europeans have traditionally been believed to be descendants of Japeth. This finally where Islam was halted for the first time. And it makes sense that it would include the use of ships given that europeans were a naval power and arabians were not. In fact this ability to control the mediterranean was what kept the crusaders supplied in desperate times. Also note that knowledge will be gained from them that forsook the holy covenant. We see the fruits of this today when passages from the koran are lifted from the bible, mishna, and gnostic gospels.
Dan 11:31 And arms 2220 shall stand 5975 on his part, and they shall pollute 2490 the sanctuary 4720 of strength 4581, and shall take away 5493 the daily 8548 [sacrifice], and they shall place 5414 the abomination 8251 that maketh desolate 8074 .
Given what we know about the abomination of desolation from the preceding chapters of Daniel we know Muhammad was not alive for this and so by this point the chapter is dealing with Islam in general.
Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly 7561 against the covenant 1285 shall he corrupt 2610 by flatteries 2514: but the people 5971 that do know 3045 their God 430 shall be strong 2388 , and do 6213 [exploits].
This is exactly how converts were created in the earliest days of Islam. The only Jew who would follow Muhammad is one that has forsaken the holy covenant. And lying for the cause of Islam is mandated by the koran.
Dan 11:33 And they that understand 7919 among the people 5971 shall instruct 995 many 7227: yet they shall fall 3782 by the sword 2719, and by flame 3852, by captivity 7628, and by spoil 961, [many] days 3117.
Which has been the fate of Jews in Islamic countries for 1400 years.
Dan 11:42 He shall stretch forth 7971 his hand 3027 also upon the countries 776: and the land 776 of Egypt 4714 shall not escape 6413.
Islam did conquer this country and it is still in its' grip today housing the leading Islamic university, Al-Azhar
Dan 11:43 But he shall have power 4910 over the treasures 4362 of gold 2091 and of silver 3701, and over all the precious 2532 things of Egypt 4714: and the Libyans 3864 and the Ethiopians 3569 [shall be] at his steps 4703.
Libya has given in to Islam and Ethiopia is right on its' heels. Islam is the second largest religion in Ethiopia and growing.
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant 5193 the tabernacles 168 of his palace 643 between the seas 3220 in the glorious 6643 holy 6944 mountain 2022; yet he shall come 935 to his end 7093, and none shall help 5826 him.
I believe this to be referencing the mosques that have been established on the Temple mount.
What is interesting is if you pay attention to the tenses Daniel used it reads as something that progresses over time. Not a single spot on the historical map. Daniel reiterates a few times that this has to happen before the end time to drive the point home that this is happening over time.Daniel 11:27...for yet the end 7093 [shall be] at the time appointed 4150. ,:35...because [it is] yet for a time appointed 4150.
GREAT POST!
If you ever want an easy copy and paste that doesn't include the Strong's tags I use this site
http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm
But watch out since it is Nkjv by default. You can easily switch it to KJV in upper left
The context of Dan 7:25-27, 2 Thess 2:8, and Rev 19:20 concerns the time of great trouble that immediately precedes the 2nd coming of our Lord. If you want to believe these prophesies have already been fulfulled, that is your choice.
Eschatology beliefs are not essential to salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ. But for those who are or will live in the very last days that precede our Lord's 2nd coming, they will be essential in enabling us to be overcomers and endure to the end (Matt 24:13-14).
As for me, I believe these Scriptures still have a future tense fulfillment with a future tense "antichrist" type person fulfilling these prophesies.
Blessings
Quote from: John 10:10 on April 30, 2010, 09:55:59 AM
The context of Dan 7:25-27, 2 Thess 2:8, and Rev 19:20 concerns the time of great trouble that immediately precedes the 2nd coming of our Lord. If you want to believe these prophesies have already been fulfulled, that is your choice.
Eschatology beliefs are not essential to salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ. But for those who are or will live in the very last days that precede our Lord's 2nd coming, they will be essential in enabling us to be overcomers and endure to the end (Matt 24:13-14).
As for me, I believe these Scriptures still have a future tense fulfillment with a future tense "antichrist" type person fulfilling these prophesies.
Blessings
It is true that eschatological views are not essential to salvation. However the view that you cling to blinds the vast majority of believers to the dangers in our present. Not to mention it propogates the doctrine of judgement deferred. How many people do you suppose would wait until "the rapture" to get things right with the Lord? Furthermore how thick would even the most natural minded man have to be in order not to see the parallels between prophecy playing out in such a short period of time given the wide spread knowledge and accessability of the futurist doctrine? Those Left Behind books have really painted that view into a corner. Besides look at prophecies in Daniel that we know are fulfilled for fact because they are identified as such in the text. Those four beast kingdoms were prophecied waaaaay in advance and yet the fulfillment of those prophecies spanned hundreds of years. Why would God suddenly deviate from His method of fulfillment to wrap everything up in a way that directly conflicts with scripture? I ask you with all the horrible things that have happened in this last century alone, the holocaust, 2 million somolian christians killed, vietnam, the introduction of communism, the introduction of nazism,etc how bad do things have to get to qualify as tribulation? Perhaps explaining to the millions of Christians that live in Islamic countries that they should not fret because tribulation hasn't come yet will ease their suffering. Those people live in John's world. They are being persecuted ver batim as it was said Christians would be in Revelation.
Rev 1:9 - I John, who also am your brother,
and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Are you, as John put it, a companion in tribulation or not?
Please show me scriptural support for this seven year tribulation and antichrist figure and let us begin from there. Or you could go through the False Prophet. If you have done that then please lay out a point by point post of your scriptrual support for your doctrine and we can discuss it that way.A
God bless
Quote from: John 10:10 on April 30, 2010, 09:55:59 AM
The context of Dan 7:25-27, 2 Thess 2:8, and Rev 19:20 concerns the time of great trouble that immediately precedes the 2nd coming of our Lord. If you want to believe these prophesies have already been fulfulled, that is your choice.
Eschatology beliefs are not essential to salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ. But for those who are or will live in the very last days that precede our Lord's 2nd coming, they will be essential in enabling us to be overcomers and endure to the end (Matt 24:13-14).
As for me, I believe these Scriptures still have a future tense fulfillment with a future tense "antichrist" type person fulfilling these prophesies.
Blessings
You keep quoting the same verse numbers as if they support a futurist view, and as if nothing was written about them earlier in this thread, like for example the abomination of desolation being an "it" and such. Why don't you point out my error to me?
Is the abomination of desolation an "it" or not?
Is the corporate body of Christ the "temple of God" or not?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=103.0
Do you believe a future rebuilt physical temple is prophesied in scripture? If so why? If not what does your "The" "Antichrist" defile?
If these suddenly look like trick, or just difficult questions, why do you suppose that is?
Why do you suppose the doctrine that you hold was not to be found in the church before it left the pen of John Nelson Darby in the mid-19th century? Here is how a real heavyweight futurist that holds your doctrine put it:
"Dr. Harry Ironsid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_A._Ironside)e of Moody Bible Institute, himself an ardent supporter of the Ribera-Lacunza-Macdonald-Darby-Scofield eschatological scheme, admitted in his Mysteries of God, p.50: ". . .
until brought to the fore through the writings of . . . Mr. J. N. Darby,
the doctrine taught by Dr. Scofield [i.e., the Seven-Year Tribulation theory]
is scarcely to be found in a single book throughout a period of 1600 years. If any doubt this statement, let them search, as the writer has in measure done, the remarks of the so-called Fathers, both pre- and post-Nicene, the theological treatises of the scholastic divines . . . the literature of the reformation . . . the Puritans.
He will find the 'mystery' conspicuous by its absence."
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm#pseudo_ephraem
Darby isn't all the 19th century brought the church.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=80.0
Why do you suppose it is that people are Mormons, or Jehovah's Witness, or Christian Scientists?
Are we really to expect that:
Yet a different billion and a half people (1/4 of mankind) will also be specifically antichrist as a foundation of their religion ("shirk" - "God has no Son).
Yet a different billion and a half people will also follow a different, as yet unknown, also antichrist European false prophet.
Yet a different antichrist religion will also "wear out the saints (http://beholdthebeast.com/time_times_and_half.htm)" by murdering Jews and Christians - also by beheading. (Dan 7:25)
Yet a different religion will also change the times - by creating its own calendar. (Daniel 7:25)
Yet a different religion will also seek to change laws - by ignoring the Sabbath as well as imposing Sharia law, in the place of laws of legitimate sovereign nations, throughout the world. (Daniel 7:25) See "Time, Times and a Half"
Yet a different religion will also build yet another abomination on the Temple Mount that will:
1) Blaspheme God The Most High - for 1300 years with mosaic inscriptions inside and out of "Far be it from God's glory that he should have a Son".
2) Blaspheme God's name - blaspheme Yahweh by calling their god Allah.
3) Blaspheme God's tabernacle - by building the Dome of the Rock, with blasphemy written all over it, within 300 feet of where the Holy of Holies was kept, as well as blaspheme against God's true tabernacle, the body of Christ.
Yet a different religion will also be marked by the number 666 (http://beholdthebeast.com/#islam_666).
Yet a different religion will establish in a few years, what took Islam almost 1400 years to establish.
Or alternately are we really to believe that the 1.5 billion antichrist Muslims in the world today, will all convert to a different as yet unknown European antichrist religion, operated by some as yet unknown charismatic antichrist European leader, and this in a period of just a few years? This, even as we watch Europe fall to Islam?
Not surprisingly, as the church slides deeper into apostasy, or the "falling away" as 2 Thessalonians describes it, the Presbyterian church (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=presbyterian++divesting+israel&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8) is divesting of Israel and leaders even met with Hezbollah (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu72aJVxHQKIAkQRXNyoA?p=anglicans+divest+israel&fr=yfp-t-501&ei=UTF-8), perhaps the Anglicans (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu72aJVxHQKIAkQRXNyoA?p=anglicans+divest+israel&fr=yfp-t-501&ei=UTF-8) may not be far behind.
As I have explained to you several times, I do not believe in a rapture of the Church before a great tribulation time, then unbelievers on earth somehow getting right with God with a Church tucked away in heaven.
I believe in one 2nd coming of our Lord at the end of a great tribulation time (Rev 19), and final judgment at that time.
I do not believe Rev 20 sequentially follows Rev 19, but explains other events leading to the same final judgment which is described in both chapters.
I believe a bunch of bad dudes will be alive on earth during the time shortly before our Lord returns, including the "lawless one" of 2 Thess 2:8 "whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming."
As Jesus taught in the Matt 13 parables, I believe the wheat and the tares will grow and be alive on earth until the final harvest. The tares will be taken first for judgment, "then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that has ears, let him hear." (Matt 13:43).
These are my eschatology beliefs in a nutshell.
Blessings
Quote from: John 10:10 on April 30, 2010, 01:45:17 PM
As I have explained to you several times, I do not believe in a rapture of the Church before a great tribulation time, then unbelievers on earth somehow getting right with God with a Church tucked away in heaven.
I believe in one 2nd coming of our Lord at the end of a great tribulation time (Rev 19), and final judgment at that time.
I do not believe Rev 20 sequentially follows Rev 19, but explains other events leading to the same final judgment which is described in both chapters.
I believe a bunch of bad dudes will be alive on earth during the time shortly before our Lord returns, including the "lawless one" of 2 Thess 2:8 "whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming."
As Jesus taught in the Matt 13 parables, I believe the wheat and the tares will grow and be alive on earth until the final harvest. The tares will be taken first for judgment, "then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that has ears, let him hear." (Matt 13:43).
These are my eschatology beliefs in a nutshell.
Blessings
So what's the "abomination of desolation" in the Matt 24:15 verse that you referenced previously?
Quote from: John 10:10 on April 30, 2010, 01:45:17 PM
As I have explained to you several times, I do not believe in a rapture of the Church before a great tribulation time, then unbelievers on earth somehow getting right with God with a Church tucked away in heaven.
I believe in one 2nd coming of our Lord at the end of a great tribulation time (Rev 19), and final judgment at that time.
I do not believe Rev 20 sequentially follows Rev 19, but explains other events leading to the same final judgment which is described in both chapters.
I believe a bunch of bad dudes will be alive on earth during the time shortly before our Lord returns, including the "lawless one" of 2 Thess 2:8 "whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming."
As Jesus taught in the Matt 13 parables, I believe the wheat and the tares will grow and be alive on earth until the final harvest. The tares will be taken first for judgment, "then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that has ears, let him hear." (Matt 13:43).
These are my eschatology beliefs in a nutshell.
Blessings
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God
sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The temple of God is the body.
1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that
ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy,
which [temple] ye are. 2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for
ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
These verses are not open to interpretation. So the idea of a physical man of sin residing there is a little far-fetched.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
He was already at work in Paul's day.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
The man of sin resides in them that perish. Those who did not accept the truth. That man of sin is eradicated the moment Jesus enters into you.
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on April 30, 2010, 07:49:43 AM
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant 5193 the tabernacles 168 of his palace 643 between the seas 3220 in the glorious 6643 holy 6944 mountain 2022; yet he shall come 935 to his end 7093, and none shall help 5826 him.
I believe this to be referencing the mosques that have been established on the Temple mount.
Considering al-Aqsa Mosque is considered the third most holy mosque in Islam, and it is located between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea, and is built on the temple mount, I think you may well be right.
Regarding the plural...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mosques_in_Jerusalem
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on May 01, 2010, 08:47:39 AM
1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
These verses are not open to interpretation. So the idea of a physical man of sin residing there is a little far-fetched.
Might we be able to consider it in physical man sense, residing within the corporate body of Christ?
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Like this, for example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN9Ay4QAtW8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkEpQlL1GHo&NR=1
Quote from: Peter on May 01, 2010, 10:22:35 AM
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on May 01, 2010, 08:47:39 AM
1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
These verses are not open to interpretation. So the idea of a physical man of sin residing there is a little far-fetched.
Might we be able to consider it in physical man sense, residing within the corporate body of Christ?
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Like this, for example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN9Ay4QAtW8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkEpQlL1GHo&NR=1
I had considered that. Could be that false teaching and doctrine could be the defilement of the temple God warned of in 1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
However this would indicate multiple personages given the sweeping nature of the statement. If you want to see that spirit of lawlessness running rampant within the body of Christ go to Christian forums and comment on the deity of Jesus, homosexuality as a sin, or that the only way to God is through Jesus. I have been attacked on all of those fronts nearly every time I post there.
I did not explain myself very well in regard to Matt 24:15. Here is what I believe Jesus taught in this Olivet Discourse.
Jesus had just told His disciples that the Temple would be torn down, and "not one stone here shall be left upon another, which will not be torn down."
The disciples then asked Jesus three questions:
(1) Tell us when will these things be; i.e., when will the Temple be torn down?
(2) What will be the sign of Your coming?
(3) What will be the signs of the end of the age?
I believe Jesus answered the last question first in verses 4-14.
Then I believe Jesus answered the first question in verses 15-20.
Finally, I believe Jesus answered the second question in verses 21-51.
Therefore, I believe the "abomination of desolation" spoken about in Matt 24:15 happened during the time when Titus captured Jerusalem in 70 AD and the Temple was destroyed. This was a warning to the Jews who would still be living in Jerusalem at that time that it was time to flee for their lives.
Josephus records that 1.1 million Jews perished during the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and only 97,000 were carried away captive.
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 01, 2010, 10:57:16 AM
I did not explain myself very well in regard to Matt 24:15. Here is what I believe Jesus taught in this Olivet Discourse.
Jesus had just told His disciples that the Temple would be torn down, and "not one stone here shall be left upon another, which will not be torn down."
Therefore, I believe the "abomination of desolation" spoken about in Matt 24:15 happened during the time when Titus captured Jerusalem in 70 AD and the Temple was destroyed. This was a warning to the Jews who would still be living in Jerusalem at that time that it was time to flee for their lives.
Josephus records that 1.1 million Jews perished during the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and only 97,000 were carried away captive.
Here is the issue with that.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
By the very nature of that action nothing was standing where it shouldn't.
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 01, 2010, 10:57:16 AM
I believe Jesus answered the last question first in verses 4-14.
Then I believe Jesus answered the first question in verses 15-20.
Finally, I believe Jesus answered the second question in verses 21-51.
Do we have licence to switch around the chronology of scripture to fit our presumptions?
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 01, 2010, 10:57:16 AM
Therefore, I believe the "abomination of desolation" spoken about in Matt 24:15 happened during the time when Titus captured Jerusalem in 70 AD and the Temple was destroyed. This was a warning to the Jews who would still be living in Jerusalem at that time that it was time to flee for their lives.
Josephus records that 1.1 million Jews perished during the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and only 97,000 were carried away captive.[/b]
No question that was desolating to Jerusalem. But are you aware that another 750,000 Jews were killed in the Bar Kokhba revolt less than 70 years later? Desolated again. What about when the Islamic Kalif Omar marched in and took over in 639? All Gentile conquests - from the Romans to the Islamists.
Do you know how desolate Jerusalem was by the early 19th century?
In "A History of the Jews" Paul Johnson writes on page 321: "Between 1827 and 1839, largely through British efforts, the population of Jerusalem rose from 550 to 5,500 and in all Palestine it topped 10,000 - the real beginning of the Jewish return to the Promised Land. In 1838 Palmerston appointed the first western vice-consul in Jerusalem, W.T. Young, and told him 'to afford protection to the Jews generally'."
Even as late as 1867 Mark Twain described it thus: " ...[a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds-a silent mournful expanse....A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action....We never saw a human being on the whole route....There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country."
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,
until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.I believe those "times of the Gentiles" were fulfilled when the Jews took back control of Jerusalem in 1967.
I believe the Dome of the Rock is the symbol of the desolation of Jerusalem.
http://beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm
2 Thess 2:3 identifies that a "man of lawlessness" will come forth shortly before the coming of our Lord, "who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship" (vs 4).
Verse 8 again identifies him as "that lawless one, whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and wonders."
It hard for me to not believe that this man of lawlessness will not be a person who arises on the world's scene shortly before our Lord returns, "whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His coming."
Blessings
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 01, 2010, 11:16:20 AM
2 Thess 2:3 identifies that a "man of lawlessness" will come forth shortly before the coming of our Lord, "who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship" (vs 4).
Verse 8 again identifies him as "that lawless one, whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and wonders."
It hard for me to not believe that this man of lawlessness will not be a person who arises on the world's scene shortly before our Lord returns, "whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His coming."
Blessings
Then what "temple of God" does he "sitteth" in?
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 01, 2010, 11:16:20 AM
2 Thess 2:3 identifies that a "man of lawlessness" will come forth shortly before the coming of our Lord, "who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship" (vs 4).
Verse 8 again identifies him as "that lawless one, whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and wonders."
It hard for me to not believe that this man of lawlessness will not be a person who arises on the world's scene shortly before our Lord returns, "whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His coming."
Blessings
Could you please show me in that chapter where it indicates that this man of lawlessness was to come "shortly before the coming of our Lord"? It simply says that the day of the Lord wouldn't happen until after he had been revealed. But the same chapter said he was at work in Paul's day.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
And only if we let him. This is a common theme. Satan is limited so long as we resist him.
Would you like to see the man of lawlessness working as we type?
http://www.christianforums.com/t7462128-3/#post54598848 doubting Jesus' deity.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7462025-2/#post54576096 condoning homosexuality
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on May 01, 2010, 11:33:47 AM
Would you like to see the man of lawlessness working as we type?
Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3cLChnG_mE You can scroll to the 1:05 mark
Hard to imagine our point being better made than with the images (and sermon) in this video.
Quote from: Peter on May 01, 2010, 11:27:22 AM
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 01, 2010, 11:16:20 AM
2 Thess 2:3 identifies that a "man of lawlessness" will come forth shortly before the coming of our Lord, "who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship" (vs 4).
Verse 8 again identifies him as "that lawless one, whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and wonders."
It hard for me to not believe that this man of lawlessness will not be a person who arises on the world's scene shortly before our Lord returns, "whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His coming."
Blessings
Then what "temple of God" does he "sitteth" in?
I believe we all still know/see in part (1 Cor 13:9) in this Church age. When our Lord returns, the partial will be done away with (vs 10). As we get closer and closer to our Lord's return, then I believe we will see things better that we only see now in part.
Taking his seat in the temple of God could mean letting Satan empower him as "the man of lawlessness." I do not necessarily believe that a Temple must be built in Jerusalem for this to be fulfilled, as many Christians believe.
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on May 01, 2010, 11:33:47 AM
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 01, 2010, 11:16:20 AM
2 Thess 2:3 identifies that a "man of lawlessness" will come forth shortly before the coming of our Lord, "who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship" (vs 4).
Verse 8 again identifies him as "that lawless one, whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and wonders."
It hard for me to not believe that this man of lawlessness will not be a person who arises on the world's scene shortly before our Lord returns, "whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His coming."
Blessings
Could you please show me in that chapter where it indicates that this man of lawlessness was to come "shortly before the coming of our Lord"? It simply says that the day of the Lord wouldn't happen until after he had been reveale[/size]d. But the same chapter said he was at work in Paul's day.
Answer: The man of lawlessness in vs 3 is the same lawless one in vs 8 that is slain when the Lord returns. Therefore, I conclude that he comes on the world's scene very shortly before our Lord returns.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
And only if we let him. This is a common theme. Satan is limited so long as we resist him.
Would you like to see the man of lawlessness working as we type?
Answer: Yes, God has called the Church to hold back evil in the world, and to carry the gospel of the kingdom that Jesus is Lord to the ends of the earth. But there is coming a day when we can no longer hold back the events of the end of the age, and then God will send forth His angels to reap the final harvest. Matt 13:41
http://www.christianforums.com/t7462128-3/#post54598848 doubting Jesus' deity.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7462025-2/#post54576096 condoning homosexuality
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 01, 2010, 01:42:53 PM
Taking his seat in the temple of God could mean letting Satan empower him as "the man of lawlessness." I do not necessarily believe that a Temple must be built in Jerusalem for this to be fulfilled, as many Christians believe.
"Necessarily"? What would the purpose of a rebuilt temple be if we Christians are to believe that our Savior's work on the cross is a complete and sufficient? Why was the veil in the last temple rent at Jesus' death, and torn down 40 years later?
So then on what basis do you believe it is a single individual? Where is the "temple of God"? In one
single individual? No. In the body of Christ.
So as resist pointed out, the man of sin is working
now - and has been.
What I see is a church running over the hill with torches and pitchforks in hand, chasing after "that man of sin" of some future someday, when they are blinded to the fact that he may well be right there among them, in the body of Christ.
Futurists warn of some perceived pending future crisis, perpetrated by some future bogeyman, while they are blinded to this crises already being manifest around them - and increasingly so. I believe that blindness is the work of the enemy. Whether unclean spirits and demons in their church, or ecumenism, or blessing reprobate behavior, etc.
"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God"
What is all that is called God?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The bible warns to "try the spirits" but do Pentecostals generally do that?
It warns of reprobate minds from homosexuality yet the Episcopal Church ordains them as ministers.
In spite of all of the fulfilled prophecy of Jews being restored to their land, some Presbyterian leaders met with Hamas.
This while the Pope kisses the Quran and the Vatican Council explains how Mohammedan antichrists worship the same God as Christians and Jews.
Please watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3cLChnG_mE You can scroll to the 1:05 mark
Hard to imagine our point being better made than with the images (and sermon) in this video.
If not some future rebuilt temple,
then what temple is 2Thess talking about??? Please be specific.
We agree on this point. For the Jews to re-build a Temple in Jerusalem, and re-institute the old covenant sacrifice system would be a stench to the nostrils of God. Therefore, 2 Thess 2:4 must mean something other than the re-building of a physical temple. QuoteSo then on what basis do you believe it is a single individual?
On the basis of the plain language of 2 Thess 2:8-9 where Paul says a "lawless one" whose coming is in accord with the activity of satan with all power and signs and wonders will be slain by the appearance of our Lord's 2nd coming.
If others want to believe this is not an individual who comes on the world's scene just prior to our Lord's return, or that this has been fulfilled in past history, I don't have a problem if they want to believe this.
For me, I believe this will happen just prior to our Lord's 2nd coming, and it will be clearly evident for those Christians who are alive on earth when our Lord returns.
Blessings
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 02, 2010, 11:50:09 AM
We agree on this point. For the Jews to re-build a Temple in Jerusalem, and re-institute the old covenant sacrifice system would be a stench to the nostrils of God. Therefore, 2 Thess 2:4 must mean something other than the re-building of a physical temple.
THEN WHAT? Is it that difficult to locate the "temple of God"? have you noticed how you are avoiding the inevitable conclusion you will reach?
Where is the temple of God?Quote from: John 10:10 on May 02, 2010, 11:50:09 AM
QuoteSo then on what basis do you believe it is a single individual?
On the basis of the plain language ........
You say "plain language" even as you express that you don't have a clue as to where he sitteth.
If we are to understand this passage as the "plain language" that you express calls for a future single individual, then we are going to be left with little choice but to understand that the "man of sin" is Judas, since that's the only other reference to "son of perdition" in scripture. Do you believe this passage is a reference to Judas returning in the future?
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 02, 2010, 11:50:09 AM
If others want to believe this is not an individual who comes on the world's scene just prior to our Lord's return, or that this has been fulfilled in past history, I don't have a problem if they want to believe this.
I already explained the danger that so much of the church has succumbed to by being deceived into believing this is something that is of the future, rather than the past present and future.
Also that false doctrine prevents you from being able to explain to a Muslim how his fate is expressed in Bible prophecy. Often I even see Christians pointing out to Muslims that their "The" "Antichrist" is just like the "Dijal" detailed in the Quran,
that Muslims understand from the Quran is on their team and against Christians and Jews! Thus encouraging Muslims to believe the Quran is an inspired work of God!
What might sharing such a large concept or component in your eschatology with Islam, communicate to you about your doctrine?
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 02, 2010, 11:50:09 AM
For me, I believe this will happen just prior to our Lord's 2nd coming, and it will be clearly evident for those Christians who are alive on earth when our Lord returns.
Blessings[/b]
Because that's what you were first trained to believe, and then embellished in self-indoctrination. I did too.
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 02, 2010, 11:50:09 AM
On the basis of the plain language of 2 Thess 2:8-9 where Paul says a "lawless one" whose coming is in accord with the activity of satan with all power and signs and wonders will be slain by the appearance of our Lord's 2nd coming.
I just noticed that you may be insisting on what is likely an inserted word.
I've noticed this before, but I didn't realize the possible importance, because the passage works both ways for me. Not so for you.
8 kai <2532> {AND} tote <5119> {THEN} apokalufqhsetai <601> (5701) {WILL BE REVEALED} o <3588> {THE} anomoV <459> {LAWLESS [ONE],}
There is a reason that word [ONE] is in brackets. If it's inserted by the translators (that shared your doctrinal bias) then this verse may well be speaking about a whole group of people. I'd say 1.5 billion antichrists fits the passage pretty well. Or perhaps all the lawless.
Please visit this link. I worked a lot more into it today.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=415.msg5121#msg5121
Quote from: Peter on May 02, 2010, 12:53:44 PM
THEN WHAT? Is it that difficult to locate the "temple of God"? have you noticed how you are avoiding the inevitable conclusion you will reach? Where is the temple of God?
I said this earlier: Taking his seat in the temple of God could mean letting Satan empower him as "the man of lawlessness."
I confess I still see only in part, as did Paul. As we get closer to the 2nd coming of our Lord, events surrounding His coming will become much clearer, including the "lawless one" if there is such a future lawless one.
My eschatology views have changed considerably over the last 40 years. Now I look mostly to the teachings of Jesus in Matthew 13 and His Olivet Discourse to understand where we are in God's time table concerning the end of the age and our Lord's 2nd coming. Especially important are these words in Luke 21:36,
"But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."
Blessings
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 02, 2010, 03:34:14 PM
My eschatology views have changed considerably over the last 40 years. Now I look mostly to the teachings of Jesus in Matthew 13 and His Olivet Discourse to understand where we are in God's time table concerning the end of the age and our Lord's 2nd coming. Especially important are these words in Luke 21:36,
But even to accomplish that you admitted that you had to juggle it out of order.
Please click on the link I provided to 2 Thess above.
The main change I have made since my pre-trib rapture days of the late 1960's is to center my beliefs on the teachings of Jesus, not on prophesies that I may know only in part. The teachings of Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Paul and John are great for occasional studies, but I continue to rely on the Spirit of truth to show me what is to come. This I believe God will do as we have need of full understanding of what is to come.
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth ; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak ; and He will disclose to you what is to come." (John 16:13)
Blessings
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 02, 2010, 05:21:42 PM
The main change I have made since my pre-trib rapture days of the late 1960's is to center my beliefs on the teachings of Jesus, not on prophesies that I may know only in part. The teachings of Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Paul and John are great for occasional studies, but I continue to rely on the Spirit of truth to show me what is to come. This I believe God will do as we have need of full understanding of what is to come.
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth ; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak ; and He will disclose to you what is to come." (John 16:13)
Blessings
Did you ever read The False Prophet?
http://beholdthebeast.com/the_great_detective.htm
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 02, 2010, 05:21:42 PM
The main change I have made since my pre-trib rapture days of the late 1960's is to center my beliefs on the teachings of Jesus, not on prophesies that I may know only in part. The teachings of Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Paul and John are great for occasional studies, but I continue to rely on the Spirit of truth to show me what is to come. This I believe God will do as we have need of full understanding of what is to come.
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth ; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak ; and He will disclose to you what is to come." (John 16:13)
Blessings
Nearly a third of the Bible is prophecy. So I feel God wanted you to study it more than occasionally. Besides there are practical application to the teachings contained within them. Like the letter to the 7 churches for example.
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on May 03, 2010, 08:20:07 AMNearly a third of the Bible is prophecy. So I feel God wanted you to study it more than occasionally. Besides there are practical application to the teachings contained within them. Like the letter to the 7 churches for example.
I did not say I haven't studied extensively all the prophesies of the Bible in the past, for I have. I just said I spend more time today with the truth of John 10:27, listening to what our Lord wants me to do on earth before He returns.
Daniel has this to say about those who are alive on earth shortly before our Lord returns.
"Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand." (Dan 12:10)
Blessings
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 03, 2010, 10:34:39 AM
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on May 03, 2010, 08:20:07 AMNearly a third of the Bible is prophecy. So I feel God wanted you to study it more than occasionally. Besides there are practical application to the teachings contained within them. Like the letter to the 7 churches for example.
I did not say I haven't studied extensively all the prophesies of the Bible in the past, for I have. I just said I spend more time today with the truth of John 10:27, listening to what our Lord wants me to do on earth before He returns.
I realize we have taken you out of your comfort zone, but surely you can see you have been unable to answer to what we have been asking you about your view, remaining mute on the dangers to the church we have pointed out result from your view, and you haven't brought an argument against it.
We've given you very tangible answers that you haven't attempted to refute but rather ignore, and to support your view, substitute for answers to ours with:
"...I believe we will see things better that we only see now in part."
"I confess I still see only in part, as did Paul."
"....must mean something other than the re-building of a physical temple."
But never admitted to where the temple of God mentioned in 2 Thess is, for example. Your eschatology depends on the answer to that question.
Why not review the thread challenge yourself to answering a few of the questions, whether in here or to yourself?
Let me ask you a question. How long ago did you decide the futurists were wrong about a rebuilt temple? When did you stop holding that view?
I put some of my response in this thread John 10:10
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=415.msg5149#msg5149
Before we go any further I want to let you know that if I offended you it was not my intention. But you seemed to have indicated in your previous post that for 40 years now you have only taken an occasional look at prophecy. But given the events in Isreal in the last 40 years now is a time more important than any that preceded it to take a look at those books and for once leave our doctrinal baggage at the door and just let it say what it says. For example.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm
Please read that page. Or if that is a little too long.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=543.0
That doesn't go into as much detail as the first link but it still conveys what I am trying to point out.
Matthew Henry expressed the same thing you did, only as looking forward to our times
Matthew Henry expressed it:
"VI. That this prophecy of those times, though sealed up now, would be of great use to those that should live then, v. 4. Daniel must now shut up the words and seal the book because the time would be long ere these things would be accomplished: and it was some comfort that the Jewish nation, though, in the infancy of their return from Babylon, while they were few and weak, they met with obstructions in their work, were not persecuted for their religion till a long time after, when they had grown to some strength and maturity. He must seal the book because it would not be understood, and therefore would not be regarded, till the things contained in it were accomplished; but he must keep it safely, as a treasure of great value, laid up for the ages to come, to whom it would be of great service; for many shall then run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Then this hidden treasure shall be opened, and many shall search into it, and dig for the knowledge of it, as for silver. They shall run to and fro, to enquire out copies of it, shall collate them, and see that they be true and authentic. They shall read it over and over, shall meditate upon it, and run it over in their minds; discurrent-they shall discourse of it, and talk it over among themselves, and compare notes about it, if by any means they may sift out the meaning of it; and thus knowledge shall be increased. By consulting this prophecy on this occasion they shall be led to search other scriptures, which shall contribute much to their advancement in useful knowledge; for then shall we know if we follow on to know the Lord, Hos. 6:3. Those that would have their knowledge increased must take pains, must not sit still in slothfulness and bare wishes but run to and fro, must make use of all the means of knowledge and improve all opportunities of getting their mistakes rectified, their doubts resolved, and their acquaintance with the things of God improved, to know more and to know better what they do know. And let us here see reason to hope that, 1. Those things of God which are now dark and obscure will hereafter be made clear, and easy to be understood. Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that explication they are reserved. Therefore they are told us before, that, when they do come to pass, we may believe. 2. Those things of God which are despised and neglected, and thrown by as useless, shall be brought into reputation, shall be found to be of great service, and be brought into request; for divine revelation, however slighted for a time, shall be magnified and made honourable, and, above all, in the judgment of the great day, when the books shall be opened, and that book among the rest."
Discussion of FULFILLED prophecy, not speculation about some future someday. Isaac Newton expressed the same.
"This Prophecy is called the Revelation, with respect to the scripture of truth, which Daniel was commanded to shut up and seal, till the time of the end. Daniel sealed it until the time of the end; {Daniel 12:4, 9} and until that time comes, the Lamb is opening the seals:....
All which is as much as to say, that these Prophecies of Daniel and John should not be understood till the time of the end: .... But in the very end, the Prophecy should be so far interpreted as to convince many."
(Part II. Observations Upon the Apocalypse of St. John. Chap 1)
But sadly, the men above would have never guessed the state of the church today, choosing self-imposed blinders through the doctrines of men, with a virtual absence of Berean hearts. The stunning truth of Islam in bible prophecy being overshadowed by the heresy of a future rebuilt temple and a bogeyman. That fulfilled prophecy is replaced by idle speculation about some future someday.
The truth that Berean spirited Henry and Newton knew would surely come, replaced by fables of the silver screen.
And it's not like we weren't warned:
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 02, 2010, 11:50:09 AM
On the basis of the plain language of 2 Thess 2:8-9 where Paul says a "lawless one" whose coming is in accord with the activity of satan with all power and signs and wonders will be slain by the appearance of our Lord's 2nd coming.
The "plain language" of this area of scripture, is one of the few things you expressed anything related to certainty in, but what we find is that your understanding is dependent on a "helper" word that was added to the original Greek by the translators that were perhaps driven by a similar understanding as yours.
8 kai <2532> {AND} tote <5119> {THEN} apokalufqhsetai <601> (5701) {WILL BE REVEALED} o <3588> {THE} anomoV <459> {LAWLESS
[one
],} 9 ou <3739> {WHOSE} estin <2076> (5748) h <3588> {IS} parousia <3952> {COMING} kat <2596> {ACCORDING TO [THE]} energeian <1753> tou <3588> {WORKING} satana <4567> {OF SATAN} en <1722> {IN} pash <3956> {EVERY} dunamei <1411> {POWER} kai <2532> {AND} shmeioiV <4592> {SIGNS} kai <2532> {AND} terasin <5059> {WONDERS} yeudouV <5579> {OF FALSEHOOD,}
What we are trying to point out to you John, is that the only support it seems you have offered so far for your view, is your willingness to hold it.
Quote from: Peter on May 03, 2010, 11:21:08 AM
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 03, 2010, 10:34:39 AM
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on May 03, 2010, 08:20:07 AMNearly a third of the Bible is prophecy. So I feel God wanted you to study it more than occasionally. Besides there are practical application to the teachings contained within them. Like the letter to the 7 churches for example.
I did not say I haven't studied extensively all the prophesies of the Bible in the past, for I have. I just said I spend more time today with the truth of John 10:27, listening to what our Lord wants me to do on earth before He returns.
I realize we have taken you out of your comfort zone, but surely you can see you have been unable to answer to what we have been asking you about your view, remaining mute on the dangers to the church we have pointed out result from your view, and you haven't brought an argument against it.
We've given you very tangible answers that you haven't attempted to refute but rather ignore, and to support your view, substitute for answers to ours with:
"...I believe we will see things better that we only see now in part."
"I confess I still see only in part, as did Paul."
"....must mean something other than the re-building of a physical temple."
But never admitted to where the temple of God mentioned in 2 Thess is, for example. Your eschatology depends on the answer to that question.
Why not review the thread challenge yourself to answering a few of the questions, whether in here or to yourself?
Let me ask you a question. How long ago did you decide the futurists were wrong about a rebuilt temple? When did you stop holding that view?
On the contrary, I'm very comfortable listening to what my Lord is telling me, trusting He will let me know what I need to know if I'm still alive on earth when He returns.
I've explained this twice before, so here it is again. Taking his seat in the temple of God could mean letting Satan empower him as "the man of lawlessness."
As for deciding that a physical Temple does not have to be rebuilt before Jesus returns, these verses in Acts 15 helped me,
15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT,
17 SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'
David never built a Temple for God's presence, Solomon did. The temple David built was one of the heart. God is rebuilding a temple of praise and worship in the hearts of His children.
Blessings
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 04, 2010, 09:57:30 AM
I've explained this twice before, so here it is again. Taking his seat in the temple of God could mean letting Satan empower him as "the man of lawlessness."
So then are you saying you expect "The" "Antichrist" will be a regenerate individual? Will be a Christian? Will be a "temple of God"? Or that he will be seated within the Body of Christ?
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 04, 2010, 09:57:30 AM
On the contrary, I'm very comfortable listening to what my Lord is telling me, trusting He will let me know what I need to know if I'm still alive on earth when He returns.
So then the 80 million futurists
are not listening to what their "Lord is telling them"? The even greater number of partial preterists
are not listening to what the "Lord is telling them"? That resisting and I
are not listening to what our "Lord is telling us"?
Did you ever wonder why there are a couple thousand denominations? Alternatively do you believe that the "Lord is telling them" all
entirely different things in terms of eschatology, and yet somehow they are all correct?
Make no mistake about entirely different. One view of Revelation after chapter 3 has almost the entirety of the book of Revelation fulfilled by 70 AD, and the other popular view has it not having begun yet.
No surprise that NEITHER view is consistent with the way ALL CHRISTIANS AND JEWS understand that Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=14.0
Since your view is entirely unique, and unsupported thus far, did you ever stop to wonder why scripture says to
1Th 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Are you aware that proper exegesis,
does not allow you to rearrange the chronological order of scripture, as you did in order to force the Olivet Discourse to support your view? Do you believe the "Lord told you" to do that too?
Unbelievable bro. I am so sorry. I just deleted your post. It was a great post. This is the first time since I have been using the "Peter" ID instead of the regular member "Pete" identity, that I have pushed the "modify" button, rather than the "quote" button.
I removed everything I didn't want to quote and added this.
"I called brother Skolfield yesterday to ask about the translator, (not-so) "helper" word [one], in the Greek. We got cut off early but he did share that he believes 2.7 is a reference to the Holy Spirit, which was poured out on (not in) all flesh, and that it is the Holy Spirit that will be taken out of the way.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."
Only instead I really did remove everything. That whole great post. I don't suppose you had a copy saved in word or something do you?
I am so, so, sorry.
If you have another copy of the browser open you might find you can copy and paste it from there if it hasn't refreshed.
Quote from: Peter on May 04, 2010, 12:29:10 PM
Unbelievable bro. I am so sorry. I just deleted your post. It was a great post. This is the first time since I have been using the "Peter" ID instead of the regular member "Pete" identity, that I have pushed the "modify" button, rather than the "quote" button.
I removed everything I didn't want to quote and added this.
"I called brother Skolfield yesterday to ask about the translator, (not-so) "helper" word [one], in the Greek. We got cut off early but he did share that he believes 2.7 is a reference to the Holy Spirit, which was poured out on (not in) all flesh, and that it is the Holy Spirit that will be taken out of the way.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."
Only instead I really did remove everything. That whole great post. I don't suppose you had a copy saved in word or something do you?
I am so, so, sorry.
If you have another copy of the browser open you might find you can copy and paste it from there if it hasn't refreshed.
No problem Pete. I still had the post open and hilighted for copying and pasting.
So here it is.
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 04, 2010, 09:57:30 AM
On the contrary, I'm very comfortable listening to what my Lord is telling me, trusting He will let me know what I need to know if I'm still alive on earth when He returns.
I'm sure you did not intend it this way but statements like that imply that others are not listening to the Lord if they disagree with you. If we were discussing verses that are completely closed to interpretation or dealt with core doctrinal issues then it would be different.
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 04, 2010, 09:57:30 AM
I've explained this twice before, so here it is again. Taking his seat in the temple of God could mean letting Satan empower him as "the man of lawlessness."
And the question has yet to be addressed. How do you support a belief in a single antichrist that will reign on earth when scripture does not indicate on in this chapter or any other passage of scripture?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=415.0
It is important to note the core theme of this epistle. It was an exhortation to the church of Thessalonica for their charity and endurance in the face of tribulation. It was also meant to assure them that those who caused them tribulation would be held accountable on the day of Judgement. It is common in our walk with God to look around us and wonder why He allows so much evil to oppress us. But we have hope that one day that evil will be consumed in an unquenchable fire. For those who did not turn from their evil ways their fate is dismal indeed. This theme is covered in the opening verses of chapter 1.
2Th 1:1 ¶ Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:3 ¶ We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
You will see that the perpetrators of this tribulation are mentioned plurally. Because it is at the hands of many people that the churches were meeting their persecution. Paul then took the time to expound upon the driving force of this persecution to add perspective to the tribulation the church was experiencing and assure them that it was necessarily going to happen before Jesus' return.
2Th 2:1 ¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Let's take the time to see how this word was used in the original greek.
that man anthropos-a human being, whether male or female
a) generically, to include all human individuals
b) to distinguish man from beings of a different order
1) of animals and plants
2) of from God and Christ
3) of the angels
c) with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led into a mistake or prompted to sin
d) with the adjunct notion of contempt or disdainful pity
e) with reference to two fold nature of man, body and soul
f) with reference to the two fold nature of man, the corrupt and the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God
g) with reference to sex, a male
2) indefinitely, someone, a man, one
3) in the plural, people
4) joined with other words, merchantman
If Paul had wish to convey the meaning that this would be a single individual he had a more appropriate word to use.
deina-1) such a one, a certain one, i.e. one whose name I cannot call on the instant, or whose name it is of no importance to mention
Or
arr?n-1) a male
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
himself-1) himself, herself, itself, themselves
The same holds true for the word he in this verse. Paul used autos...
he-1) himself, herself, themselves, itself
2) he, she, it
3) the same
...instead of tis.
tis-1) a certain, a certain one,2) some, some time, a while
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
This verse tells us that the work of that man of sin is constantly at work and was already at work then. The only way he can manifest himself is if we let him, and he will continue to do so until that sinful nature is conquered once and for all.
he that now arti-1) just now, this moment
2) now at this time, at this very time, this moment
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
This verse gives the location of where the man of sin operates. WITHIN those that perish who would not recieve the love of the truth.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
This verse reaffirms what the verses preceding have already said. That those who allowed the man of sin to work would be judged accordingly. Knowing all of this how do you suppose that a single figure is the embodiment of that man of sin when Paul said that it was working in his day, was in those who rejected the truth, used words to convey that it was applied generally, and the use of similiar literary devices in other epistles. ie.
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Are we to believe there is only one natural man that cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God?
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 04, 2010, 09:57:30 AM
As for deciding that a physical Temple does not have to be rebuilt before Jesus returns, these verses in Acts 15 helped me,
15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT,
17 SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'
David never built a Temple for God's presence, Solomon did. The temple David built was one of the heart. God is rebuilding a temple of praise and worship in the hearts of His children.
Blessings [/b]
Why then do you insist on a single man of sin when nowhere in this passage does it indicate a single individual.
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on May 04, 2010, 12:39:59 PM
No problem Pete. I still had the post open and hilighted for copying and pasting.
So here it is.
YEA!!!!!!!!!!!
I know it must have taken you between a half hour and hour to compose it.
Quote from: Peter on May 04, 2010, 10:50:22 AM
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 04, 2010, 09:57:30 AM
I've explained this twice before, so here it is again. Taking his seat in the temple of God could mean letting Satan empower him as "the man of lawlessness."
So then are you saying you expect "The" "Antichrist" will be a regenerate individual? Will be a Christian? Will be a "temple of God"? Or that he will be seated within the Body of Christ?
I believe this person spoken about in 2 Thess 2 will be one who is "born/filled with the spirit of Satan."
I do not believe he will be a Christian by any definition someone may want to give him.
Jesus warned us in Matt 13 that "the birds of the air will come and nest in its branches" (vs 32), speaking of the kingdom of heaven during the age of the Gentiles. I believe this speaks of children of Satan coming to nest in the Church during the Church age. A true mustard seed can never grow into a tree, but this one does. I am content to remain and be the true mustard seed within the kingdom of heaven.
Blessings
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 04, 2010, 12:49:20 PM
I believe this person spoken about in 2 Thess 2 will be one who is "born/filled with the spirit of Satan."
I do not believe he will be a Christian by any definition someone may want to give him.
Then how can he "sitteth in the 'temple of God'", when you believe as we, that location is a regenerate individual and the Body of Christ?
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 04, 2010, 12:49:20 PM
Jesus warned us in Matt 13 that "the birds of the air will come and nest in its branches" (vs 32), speaking of the kingdom of heaven during the age of the Gentiles. I believe this speaks of children of Satan coming to nest in the Church during the Church age. A true mustard seed can never grow into a tree, but this one does. I am content to remain and be the true mustard seed within the kingdom of heaven.
Blessings
[edit add] I didn't spend enough time reading your reply. Sorry.
So then you seem to be pretty well stuck believing your "The" "Antichrist" will have to come out of the Body of Christ.
Did you spend any time in the 2 Thess thread that we've been working on for the last couple of days?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=415.0
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on May 04, 2010, 03:15:15 AM
I put some of my response in this thread John 10:10
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=415.msg5149#msg5149
Before we go any further I want to let you know that if I offended you it was not my intention. But you seemed to have indicated in your previous post that for 40 years now you have only taken an occasional look at prophecy. But given the events in Isreal in the last 40 years now is a time more important than any that preceded it to take a look at those books and for once leave our doctrinal baggage at the door and just let it say what it says. For example.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm
Please read that page. Or if that is a little too long.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=543.0
That doesn't go into as much detail as the first link but it still conveys what I am trying to point out.
No offence taken. Israel is certainly the key to when the final events of the end of the age will take place. Israel is always in my prayers. Pray for the peace of Jeruslaem (Psa 122:6) and for Rom 11:25-27 to be fulfilled to Israel and the Jewish people.
Blessings.
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 04, 2010, 12:49:20 PM
Quote from: Peter on May 04, 2010, 10:50:22 AM
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 04, 2010, 09:57:30 AM
I've explained this twice before, so here it is again. Taking his seat in the temple of God could mean letting Satan empower him as "the man of lawlessness."
So then are you saying you expect "The" "Antichrist" will be a regenerate individual? Will be a Christian? Will be a "temple of God"? Or that he will be seated within the Body of Christ?
I believe this person spoken about in 2 Thess 2 will be one who is "born/filled with the spirit of Satan."
I do not believe he will be a Christian by any definition someone may want to give him.
Jesus warned us in Matt 13 that "the birds of the air will come and nest in its branches" (vs 32), speaking of the kingdom of heaven during the age of the Gentiles. I believe this speaks of children of Satan coming to nest in the Church during the Church age. A true mustard seed can never grow into a tree, but this one does. I am content to remain and be the true mustard seed within the kingdom of heaven.
Blessings
Let us assume for a moment that what you say is accurate concerning Matt 13.
Mat 13:31 - Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat 13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
The word bird is PLURAL. Still not indicating any one person. Furthermore in this parable Jesus seems to be emphasizing that the kingdom of Heaven will be strong enough to support all who come to rest in it. Not to mention that sinful people do not inherit the kingdom of God.
1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
2 Thess. does not say anyone is born with the spirit of satan. We all are born into sin and as such are all susceptible to that man of sin until we accept the truth. Which is just the point of 2 Thess.
Quote from: Peter on May 04, 2010, 12:55:11 PM
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 04, 2010, 12:49:20 PM
I believe this person spoken about in 2 Thess 2 will be one who is "born/filled with the spirit of Satan."
I do not believe he will be a Christian by any definition someone may want to give him.
Then how can he "sitteth in the 'temple of God'", when you believe as we, that location is a regenerate individual and the Body of Christ?
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 04, 2010, 12:49:20 PM
Jesus warned us in Matt 13 that "the birds of the air will come and nest in its branches" (vs 32), speaking of the kingdom of heaven during the age of the Gentiles. I believe this speaks of children of Satan coming to nest in the Church during the Church age. A true mustard seed can never grow into a tree, but this one does. I am content to remain and be the true mustard seed within the kingdom of heaven.
Blessings
[edit add] I didn't spend enough time reading your reply. Sorry.
So then you seem to be pretty well stuck believing he will have to come out of the Body of Christ.
Did you spend any time in the 2 Thess thread that we've been working on for the last couple of days?
I believe this person may come out of being falsely planted in the Church, but he certainly will not be a true Christian belonging to The Body of Christ.
I believe true Christians are "born again of the Holy Spirit", and that false Christians and unbelievers can be born again of an unholy spirit, the spirit of Satan, living within the temple of the human heart..
Blessings
QuoteI believe this person may come out of being falsely planted in the Church, but he certainly will not be a true Christian belonging to The Body of Christ.
I believe true Christians are "born again of the Holy Spirit", and that false Christians and unbelievers can be born again of an unholy spirit, the spirit of Satan, living within the temple of the human heart..
Blessings
But you still have failed to support this being a single individual.
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on May 04, 2010, 01:14:51 PMMat 13:31 - Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat 13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
The word bird is PLURAL. Still not indicating any one person. Furthermore in this parable Jesus seems to be emphasizing that the kingdom of Heaven will be strong enough to support all who come to rest in it. Not to mention that sinful people do not inherit the kingdom of God.
Jesus has already interpreted who the birds are, "the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in the heart" (Matt 13:19).
I believe the evil one does this directly and indirectly thru the lives of his children. It's not a question of whether or not the kingdom of heaven is strong enough to support all who come to rest in it. It's a question of who's seed they are, Christ's or Satans!
Blessings
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 04, 2010, 01:35:13 PM
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on May 04, 2010, 01:14:51 PMMat 13:31 - Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat 13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
The word bird is PLURAL. Still not indicating any one person. Furthermore in this parable Jesus seems to be emphasizing that the kingdom of Heaven will be strong enough to support all who come to rest in it. Not to mention that sinful people do not inherit the kingdom of God.
Jesus has already interpreted who the birds are, "the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in the heart" (Matt 13:19).
I believe the evil one does this directly and indirectly thru the lives of his children. It's not a question of whether or not the kingdom of heaven is strong enough to support all who come to rest in it. It's a question of who's seed they are, Christ's or Satans!
Blessings
Sorry but that is a seperate parable than the one of the mustard seed. It deals with people's understanding of teachings about the kingdom of heaven. Not the kingdom itself. Jesus does not define the birds as satan or ministers of satan in the parable you originally mentioned.
Mat 13:18 - Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
And "one" is once again a scribal addition. It is not in the original text. So that still implies plurality.
Mat 13:31 - Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat 13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
Show me how bird is defined as satan or a minister of satan in THIS parable. Jesus set the parameters of each parable. You are reading into that verse what you wish to be there.
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on May 04, 2010, 01:21:47 PM
QuoteI believe this person may come out of being falsely planted in the Church, but he certainly will not be a true Christian belonging to The Body of Christ.
I believe true Christians are "born again of the Holy Spirit", and that false Christians and unbelievers can be born again of an unholy spirit, the spirit of Satan, living within the temple of the human heart..
Blessings
But you still have failed to support this being a single individual.
I have explained several times that someone whom Paul calls "that lawless one" (2 Thess 2:8-9) whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power, signs and false wonders will be slain at the coming of our Lord. If you choose to believe that this is not a single individual, time will tell who is correct in their beliefs.
Blessings
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 05, 2010, 10:00:36 AM
I have explained several times that someone whom Paul calls "that lawless one" (2 Thess 2:8-9)....
And we have explained several times, that Paul ACTUALLY said "lawless", and that the "one" is a bracketed word
THAT WAS ADDED TO PAUL'S WORDS by the translators who, little doubt, shared your doctrinal bias.
You can PROVE NOTHING through your claim. Indeed your claim IS NOT SUPPORTED by the original Greek.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=415.msg5121#msg5121
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on May 04, 2010, 01:57:45 PMSorry but that is a seperate parable than the one of the mustard seed. It deals with people's understanding of teachings about the kingdom of heaven. Not the kingdom itself. Jesus does not define the birds as satan or ministers of satan in the parable you originally mentioned.
Show me how bird is defined as satan or a minister of satan in THIS parable. Jesus set the parameters of each parable. You are reading into that verse what you wish to be there.
Jesus interpreted only two parables, the parable of the sower and the parable of the wheat and tares. My understanding of Scripture is that whenever God uses His Word to interpret Scripture He has given previously, we are to use His interpretations everywhere else in Scripture where these same words are used. So when Jesus said in Matt 13:4 & 19 that birds/the evil one comes to snatch away seed that has been sown, the same truth applies to the birds in the parable of the mustard seed (vs 32) that can only grows into a bush, but grows into an un-natural tree. I certainly don't believe these are songbirds, as some have said.
If you disagree with this principle of interpreting Scriputre, that is your choice.
Blessings
Quote from: Peter on May 05, 2010, 10:21:05 AM
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 05, 2010, 10:00:36 AM
I have explained several times that someone whom Paul calls "that lawless one" (2 Thess 2:8-9)....
And we have explained several times, that Paul ACTUALLY said "lawless", and that the "one" is a bracketed word THAT WAS ADDED TO PAUL'S WORDS by the translators who, little doubt, shared your doctrinal bias.
You can PROVE NOTHING through your claim. Indeed your claim IS NOT SUPPORTED by the original Greek.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=415.msg5121#msg5121
Someone or some thing comes upon the world's scene just before our Lord returns, "whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved" (vs 8-10).
If you believe this is not an individual person, that is your belief, but not mine.
Blessings
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 05, 2010, 10:21:44 AM
Quote from: resistingrexmundi on May 04, 2010, 01:57:45 PMSorry but that is a seperate parable than the one of the mustard seed. It deals with people's understanding of teachings about the kingdom of heaven. Not the kingdom itself. Jesus does not define the birds as satan or ministers of satan in the parable you originally mentioned.
Show me how bird is defined as satan or a minister of satan in THIS parable. Jesus set the parameters of each parable. You are reading into that verse what you wish to be there.
Jesus interpreted only two parables, the parable of the sower and the parable of the wheat and tares. My understanding of Scripture is that whenever God uses His Word to interpret Scripture He has given previously, we are to use His interpretations everywhere else in Scripture where these same words are used. So when Jesus said in Matt 13:4 & 19 that birds/the evil one comes to snatch away seed that has been sown, the same truth applies to the birds in the parable of the mustard seed (vs 32) that can only grows into a bush, but grows into an un-natural tree. I certainly don't believe these are songbirds, as some have said.
If you disagree with this principle of interpreting Scriputre, that is your choice.
Blessings
What you are referring to is hermeneutics. And I believe firmly in the use of hermenuetics. However you are isolating a single word to make your case rather than looking at the parable as a whole. These are two seperate parables about two different, though interelated, subjects. The first parable that mentions the birds is in reference to how the wicked work to steal the knowledge of the kingdom of heaven away.
Mat 13:4 And when he sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one](this word is not in the original text., and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
So within the context of that parable Jesus interpreted birds as the wicked. People work constantly all the time to do this. Whether it is promoting the evolution agenda or the new age movement. But to isolate that single word and apply it to every subsequent verse despite context is ludicrous. I will show you why.
Mat 13:31 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat 13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
Even if we were to understand this to be the wicked lodging in the branches of the kingdom it is still used plurally undermining the entire argument of a "the antichrist". Secondly it is contradictory to the rest of scripture.
1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
The wicked could not lodge in the kingdom because they will not be there. Now to the main part of my point. The next parable reads thus...
Mat 13:33 ¶ Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Other mentions of the word leaven in scripture defines leaven as corrupt doctrine and sin.
leaven-1) leaven 2) metaph. of inveterate mental and moral corruption, viewed in its tendency to infect others
Mat 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Mat 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake [it] not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade [them] not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Mar 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and [of] the leaven of Herod.
Luk 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
1Cr 5:6 Your glorying [is] not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Cr 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.
Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
The Apostle Paul went on to explain that like leaven a little sin can cause great corruption to grow. So we must be unleavened. Are we to believe then that Jesus likened the kingdom of heaven to sin and corrupt doctrine? NO. Because that is a contradiction in terms. But if you isolate a single word without taking into consideration what is being said and what else scripture brings to bear on the subject you are forced to that conclusion. Now this has been off topic so try and answer my original question which you left out from my previous post.
QuoteLet us assume for a moment that what you say is accurate concerning Matt 13.
Mat 13:31 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat 13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
The word bird is PLURAL. Still not indicating any one person. Furthermore in this parable Jesus seems to be emphasizing that the kingdom of Heaven will be strong enough to support all who come to rest in it. Not to mention that sinful people do not inherit the kingdom of God.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt on your interpretation of bird as the wicked originally and you have still failed to show support for a single individual. All of the uses of wicked, birds, so on and so forth are plural. Stop isolating a single verse and look at the entire passage as a complete thought.
God bless
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 05, 2010, 10:40:40 AM
Quote from: Peter on May 05, 2010, 10:21:05 AM
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 05, 2010, 10:00:36 AM
I have explained several times that someone whom Paul calls "that lawless one" (2 Thess 2:8-9)....
And we have explained several times, that Paul ACTUALLY said "lawless", and that the "one" is a bracketed word THAT WAS ADDED TO PAUL'S WORDS by the translators who, little doubt, shared your doctrinal bias.
You can PROVE NOTHING through your claim. Indeed your claim IS NOT SUPPORTED by the original Greek.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=415.msg5121#msg5121
Someone or some thing comes upon the world's scene just before our Lord returns, "whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;......
The "thing" is just what it says. "that wicked" or "the lawless" that is revealed. Mohammed's Islamic empire - following Mohammed's "laws" of murder, thievery, broken contracts, lies, and rape of captives - for openers.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them {Muslims} was
cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast {Islam} and
the false prophet {Mohammed} [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You suppose that qualifies as destruction?
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 05, 2010, 10:40:40 AM........ that is, the one .....
What "one"? You did it again. Do you see the power of indoctrination?
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 05, 2010, 10:40:40 AM...... whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, ........
You don't suppose the following qualifies as Satan's work in them?
Surah 9.30
The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say.
Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";-
but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Can you see that the
EXACT OPPOSITE OF THE GOSPEL might qualify?
That 1.5 billion people ARE ANTICHRISTS as the single most important fundamental of Mohammed's religion?
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 05, 2010, 10:40:40 AM....... with all power ......
Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and
the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=12.0
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 05, 2010, 10:40:40 AM...... and signs .......
Now dig this. The Greek word "semeion" is translated as "signs" in 2 Thess, and in the verse in Revelation that says the false prophet "wrought miracles" before (that is "in the presence of") the Islamic "beast".
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles [semeion] before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Are you ready?
signs New Testament Greek Definition:
4592
semeion {say-mi'-on}
from a presumed derivative of the base of 4591; TDNT - 7:200,1015; n n
AV - sign 50, miracle 23, wonder 3, token 1; 77
1)
a sign, mark, token 1a)
that by which a person or a thing is distinguished from
others and is known 1b) a sign, prodigy, portent, i.e. an unusual occurrence,
transcending the common course of nature
1b1) of signs portending remarkable events soon to happen
1b2) of miracles and wonders by which God authenticates the men
sent by him, or by which men prove that the cause they are
pleading is God's
Mohammed's Quran is
A PERFECT FIT!
Mohammed is distinguished from others by his Quran and has been known for the last 1400 years for it!
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 05, 2010, 10:40:40 AM....... and false wonders, .....
Go online or on YouTube and look up Islamic sites and channels on the "science" of the Quran. You won't believe the ridiculous nonsense you see. They believe that science proves the Quran even as Mohammed claimed the sun set in a spring of murky water!
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 05, 2010, 10:40:40 AM...... and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, .........
In large measure because the church is blind to their plight, or doesn't bother to care, or even encourages them down their path to perdition the way the Pope and Vatican Council have.
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 05, 2010, 10:40:40 AM......... because they did not receive the love of the truth .......
I am stunned you haven't seen enough of this in the formermuslim forum to truly see it manifest.
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 05, 2010, 10:40:40 AM....... so as to be saved"[/i] (vs 8-10).
If you believe this is not an individual person, that is your belief, but not mine.
Blessings [/b]
You hold your belief on an unsupported premise, as we have shown from the Greek, while it blinds you from the truth.
Let alone that your own personal "The" "Antichrist" has to come from the Body of Christ - which is certainly a first for me.
So what do you imagine? Some fake Christian is going to rise, in a Europe that is today rapidly falling to Islam. And this guy is going to convert the 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, or 1/4 of mankind in Islam alone, in what, 3-1/2 years, or is it 7? What do they convert to? A fake Christianity? You and I know they are really prone to Christian conversion, aren't they?
Preaching from what? A soap box, since you tossed the rebuilt temple part of your doctrine aside?
Why is it that this conversation seems so one-sided. Why aren't you pointing out what you perceive as errors and implausibility, or hermeneutic rule compromising, of the few elements that we have shown you of what we believe?
If you put forth just 1/10 the effort at understanding, that you are currently putting into clutching onto your doctrine, I believe you could find yourself just a blessed as resisting and I have been, by understanding Revelation through the traditional continuous-historic context, in which we all - Christians and Jews - understand Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled.
Particularly when you have to re-author the order of scripture in order to force it to conform to your view.
I've explained to you how I rely more on the teachings of our Lord Jesus to understand what will happen on earth shortly before He returns, rather than relying on what you and others consider to be a correct understanding of other prophetic Scriptures. The teachings of Jesus are very plain to me, and gives me clear understanding how we are to carry on His work on earth until He returns. If I have need to understand perfectly the prophesies that I now see only in part, I believe my Lord will give me that understanding when it's time to get on that train. Until then, let Luke 21:36 be our guide.
Blessings
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 06, 2010, 07:35:09 PM
I've explained to you how I rely more on the teachings of our Lord Jesus to understand what will happen on earth shortly before He returns, rather than relying on what you and others consider to be a correct understanding of other prophetic Scriptures. .
That is odd you should say that considering Revelation is the teaching of Jesus to us specifically about the prophetic timing of the end times.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 06, 2010, 07:35:09 PM
The teachings of Jesus are very plain to me, and gives me clear understanding how we are to carry on His work on earth until He returns. If I have need to understand perfectly the prophesies that I now see only in part, I believe my Lord will give me that understanding when it's time to get on that train. Until then, let Luke 21:36 be our guide.
Blessings
Luk 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Yes and what better way to prepare people than to show them the dangers of waiting for that future boogie man while they stay blind to the dangers of the present spirit of satan that is plaguing our society today.
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 06, 2010, 07:35:09 PM
I've explained to you how I rely more on the teachings of our Lord Jesus to understand what will happen on earth shortly before He returns, rather than relying on what you and others consider to be a correct understanding of other prophetic Scriptures.
That claim rings hollow since you once held John Nelson Darby's 19th century futurism, lock, stock and barrel. Nobody could come to the conclusions of that inverted pyramid of pile-on presumption on their own. You admitted to having been indoctrinated into it by admitting to later having overcome parts of it. Yet it would seem you have deluded yourself into believing that you somehow arrived at it by "relying on the teachings of our Lord Jesus".
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 06, 2010, 07:35:09 PMIf I have need to understand perfectly the prophesies that I now see only in part, I believe my Lord will give me that understanding when it's time to get on that train.
Why would you expect to be given an understanding when you aren't genuinely seeking truth? You overcame a couple components of Darby's doctrine that you were taught,
expressly because you recognized they were false through scripture, but in spite of that you tenaciously cling to the pieces of it that you have left, even risking creating
your own personal Gospel, by rearranging the order of scripture to to conform it to the broken remnant of what you have left of Darby's doctrine.
We aren't looking for you to "rely" on anything we have shown you. Though we had hoped you would at least try to understand what we are showing you. But you instead choose self-imposed blindness to it, as if we had not written a thing in this thread, as if we are invisible.
Do you understand that by rearranging the Olivet Discourse you are effectively making the claim that you know better what Jesus said, than His three witnesses Matthew, Mark and Luke did? How could they be so wrong? How could they get things so out of order?
Do you really think that is what "the Lord is showing you"?
When you can come to say as did Paul in 1 Cor 2:16,
"For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ,"
then maybe you will find out that you do not have all of the mind of the Lord on matters of eschatology, and others know some things that you do not.
Until then,
Blessings
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 07, 2010, 10:30:30 AM
When you can come to say as did Paul in 1 Cor 2:16,
"For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ,"
then maybe you will find out that you do not have all of the mind of the Lord on matters of eschatology, and others know some things that you do not.
Until then,
Blessings
Did anyone up here claim to have all the answers? In fact I am composing an alternate possibility for the application of Daniel 11. However there are things we can PROVE scripturally and things we CANNOT. Like the existence of single antichrist is something we cannot prove. Especially given that Jesus never identified any one figure as particularly evil in the last days but used the term "wicked". Which as we showed you was used plurally in parables and as direct teachings. Paul uses the same plurality in his epistles. All of the "one"'s that you see in those verses are scribal additions. Those helper words obscure the true meaning of scripture sometimes.
So let us start with something we can prove.
Revelation 12:6 (KJV): And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.
Most agree that Israel, is the "woman" in the context of this verse. If we then consider that the end of the 1260 "days" was when Israel came out of "the wilderness" (of the people Ezekiel 20:35), or out from being scattered among the nations, returning home and declaring her independence in 1948, and subtract 1260 years ("each day for a year"), we arrive at 688 AD.
A quick Yahoo search reveals that this is widely understood to be the founding year of the construction of the Islamic mosque, the Dome of the Rock.
Next let's try a verse that involves 42 "months" in prophecy.
There are 365.24 days in our modern solar year, or John's 1st century Julian (365.25) year, divided by 12 months = 30.44 average days in a month:
Revelation 11:2: But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.
The city of Jerusalem was under the foot of, or controlled by, Gentiles until the Israelis took back the holy city in 1967. 42 months x 30.44 days = 1278.5 days (as years). Subtracting this from 1967 we arrive at 688.5. Once again, the founding year of the Dome of the Rock.
Let's explore Daniel's 1290 "days" in prophecy, that he penned over 500 years before John authored the problems from Revelation above:
(KJV) Daniel 12:11: And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(Tanach) - Daniel 12:11 And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety.
Sacrifices were suspended three times in the Old Testament: once before Daniel (Chronicles 28:24-25), once during the Babylonian captivity in 583 BC (Chronicles 36:19 and Ezra 3:6), and once, about four hundred years later, by the Greek king Antiochus Epiphanies. Let's try the 583 date considering that Daniel would write about the abolition of sacrifices with which he was directly familiar.
Old Testament - day = year "language" is suggested in Genesis' account of the flood as 30 day months pointing to a 360 day prophetic year, each year being equal to .9857 solar year (360/365.24) of or our modern historical record that the event dating comes from. 1290 x .9857 = 1271.5 solar years. Subtracting 583 we arrive again at 688.5 AD. The founding year of The Dome of the Rock - THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION.
Daniel and John's prophecies were written over 500 years apart, yet the two books unite with mathematical precision - both pinning the year 688 AD - that was hundreds of years in John's future and over a thousand years in Daniel's future!
Revelation 13:5: And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.
Again using the average of 30.44 days in a month, multiplied by 42 months = 1278.5 days (as years). Subtracting this from 1967, the year of Israel's regaining of Jerusalem, we arrive again at 688.5. The founding year of the Dome of the Rock.
Daniel 9:24-26: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Quoting from "The False prophet": "Almost 100 years after Gabriel spoke to Daniel, a special decree was granted by Artaxerxes I to Nehemiah (444-445 BC). This is the ONLY decree recorded in the Bible that gave the Jews permission to 'restore Jerusalem and rebuild its walls'. The Messiah, Jesus, was "cut off" or crucified in 32 or 33AD."
Much of Christianity understands these 69 weeks to be 69 sevens of years. So we have 69 x 7 or 483 prophetic 'years'." Again, uniformly using our multiplier of .9857 to reconcile this 360-day year "language" (per Genesis) with the solar year units of our modern historical record, yields: 483 x .9857 = 476 solar years. Artaxerxes' decree in 444 BC + 476 years = 32 AD, the cross right to the year!
Again quoting from The False Prophet: "But what about those six points that were supposed to be fulfilled during these 70 weeks? Ah-ha! All but one were fulfilled at the cross. Did not Jesus (1) finish transgression eternally, (2) make an end of sin,(John 1:29) (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, (4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and (6) anoint the Most holy with His own precious blood? Of course, praise the Lord! Point (5), however, was left out: 'Seal up vision and prophecy'. This is where those peculiar 7 weeks and 62 weeks come in:
7 x 7 years in prophecy = 48.3 Solar years. 444 BC - 48.3 = 395.7 BC, Malachi was inspired to write the last book of the Old Testament.
"The Scripture to the Jews was complete, and no more was written until the New Testament era! So Old Testament vision and prophecy were indeed 'sealed up'. As one dear Rabbi lamented in about 200 BC, 'The Holy Spirit has departed from Israel,' and until this very day, the Jews, as a nation, have not been permitted to see any further. The Lord has blinded their eyes so they could not recognize Jesus as their Messiah (Romans 11:8, 2 Corinthians 3:15)."
Earlier you mentioned allowing scripture to interpret scripture and I concur. Let us start with Daniel's beasts.
Daniel 7:4 The first [was] like a lion, and had eagle's wings...
Daniel 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear...
Daniel 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard...
Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly...
The first was reference to Babylon, the second was Medo-Persia, the third was Greece, and the fourth was Rome.
Now in Revelation we see beast pop up again. Following the hermeneutic rule it means empire or kingdom.
Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
The seats of the ancient successive kingdom beasts of Daniel's lion, bear and leopard which are Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, are occupied today by the countries of Iraq, Iran, and Syria/Lebanon. The dragon in the verse above is Satan. All of the land that made up those kingdoms is controlled by and united by Islam. Which explains perfectly why the beast in Revelation is 1 beast made of three beasts already mentioned in scripture. Islam is driven by the very spirit of antichrist. You know that.
Please read the False Prophet. Just as a favor to see where we are coming from. Here is a link http://www.beholdthebeast.com/preface_tfp.htm
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 07, 2010, 10:30:30 AM
When you can come to say as did Paul in 1 Cor 2:16,
"For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ,"
then maybe you will find out that you do not have all of the mind of the Lord on matters of eschatology,.....
Of course I would be the last to claim that I did. Particularly after having been indoctrinated into futurist eschatology, and then blessedly having overcome it, by simply seeking out and following the truth. Indeed exactly through a willingness to understand, that something that I believe, could be in error.
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 07, 2010, 10:30:30 AM..... and others know some things that you do not.
No question. But you failed to count yourself among those "others" by failing to demonstrate the truth of your beliefs through scripture - indeed but rather demonstrated an abuse of scripture - and yet you did not lodge the first criticism against what we have been trying to explain to you. Indeed if you had been watching the 2 Thess thread you would have found that resisting and I are still very much learning. Evermore, everyday.
Quote from: John 10:10 on May 07, 2010, 10:30:30 AM
Until then,
Blessings[/b]
Instead of engaging in a personal attack, why don't you instead explain how you believe you have been given license to rearrange the order of the Olivet Discourse, to fit your unique eschatology?
You said: "I've explained to you how I rely more on the teachings of our Lord Jesus to understand what will happen..."
But what you are attempting is to modify futurist
doctrine that you were taught, with preterist
doctrine that you were taught. It won't work because there is a gulf of 1900 years that separates the two doctrines.
And in case you didn't notice, resisting and I are pointing out our understanding of what
did happen, regarding
fulfilled prophecy, not idly speculating about the future.
"The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets.
By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things,
but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence." - Sir Isaac Newton
Instead of personal attacks, why don't you try to understand what we have been advancing, and then criticize the portions you find problematic, as we did yours?
The easiest way is to understand it in it's entirety, as a brick by brick empirical argument, as presented in "The False Prophet" by Ellis Skolfield.
http://beholdthebeast.com/the_great_detective.htm
However if you put your effort into MISunderstanding, or try page by page to wring it through the filter of your futurist/preterist hybrid doctrine, you likely won't get very far. Why not consider this entire traditional continuous historic context - with which you are well familiar in regard to Old Testament prophecy but not at all familiar in regard to New Testament prophecy - entirely on it's own merit?