http://www.islamandthetruth.com/
THE QURAN ON SCRIPTURE
A printable foldable PDF tract of this subject available at this link (http://www.islamandthetruth.com/c9.pdf). More PDF tracts here (http://www.islamandthetruth.com/free_tracts.htm).
What does the Quran say about the bible? The following suras are from the popular Yusuf Ali English translation. Mohammed was instructed by Allah about where to get his advice if he had doubts:
Sura 10:94 If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
That verse was written hundreds of years after the bible had been translated into every popular language, and was being read all over the known world. Indeed we have over 5300 (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/bible_manuscript_errors_.htm) partial or complete manuscripts of God's Word that were penned prior to the 4th century AD.
Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
So Christian's are specifically instructed by Mohammed's "Allah" to judge - even Islam - according to what God has revealed to us in the Gospel. Perhaps the most widely quoted verse in the Gospel is:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
But the Quran says in surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
In Jesus words from the gospel of Matthew 26:28 (http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_matthew.htm#matthew_28) For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mohammed's "Allah"s message to Jews and Christians.
Sura 5:68 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
And Muslims are given similar instruction in sura 4:136 O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.
Have you gone "far, far, astray"? Have you ever even read the scriptures that came before Mohammed?
1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.
Some Muslims claim that the bible was corrupted but this would be going directly against the Quran, let alone an admission that Allah was ignorant to any bible corruption that took place over the many hundreds of years that passed after the scriptures were closed and before he inspired all of these verses.
Of course it would be absurd to suggest that all of the scriptures all around the world had somehow been changed after he inspired those verses, let alone that this would also imply "Allah"s ignorance that they would be corrupted in the future of all these "revelations".
Sura 48.29 ... This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.
Sura 80.13 (It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour, 14 Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,15 (Written) by the hands of scribes- 16 Honourable and Pious and Just.
That was written during Mohammed's early Mecca days, so the books he referred to are necessarily the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians.
Indeed Mohammed was to confirm and guard those Scriptures according to sura 5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety:...
But given sura 4:157 above, it wouldn't seem to have accomplished that.
...so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
Do you trust God to show you the truth?
Allah instructs to believe in the scripture that came before Mohammed. How could a Muslim obey Allah's commandment to: "Believe in ... the scripture which He sent to those before (him)." if you haven't read those scriptures (http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm)?
Sura 5:43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
Why indeed.
Surah 2:106 (Asad) Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?
Are we to believe that God was in such a state of confusion that He had to annul and replace (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.msg303#msg303) inspired verses in the Quran?
In the following pages the Gospel is copied from the King James Version which is the most widely quoted and respected English version in Christianity. It is also the version from which Ahmed Deedat used to quote. Why not read a little and trust Allah to "show you the truth of the matters"?
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10 I the LORD search the heart, try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings.
1Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
May God bless you and guide us ALL in ALL truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Link to the Gospel of John (http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm).
Here is an audio King James Bible that you can listen to for free. http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html (http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html)
You can listen with "Real Player".
Here is another audio version (http://www.audiotreasure.com/KJV/), (perhaps not quite as dynamic) but you can listen for free with Windows Media Player, and download in MP3. They mention "We have another KJV recording (http://store.audiotreasure.com/pd_the.cfm) that is voice only (in MP3) and can be legally copied for ministry use." ("These disc can be copied and given to others! (non-commercial use)) http://www.audiotreasure.com/KJV/
Here is an Arabic audio New Testament (http://www.arabicbible.com/bible/nt_audio.htm) and a text Bible translated into Arabic (http://www.arabicbible.com/), and much more.
Here is an online King James Bible that you can perform searches in for terms like "Son of God". http://www.blueletterbible.org
Here is a bible with many versions, and Strong's definitions, and a Textus Receptus Greek interlinear are just a click away.
http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm
Here is a 2 minute U-Tube (http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=4f23ccf34e40e03eafae) that proves the truth of God's Holy Word.
(Have you gone "far, far, astray"? Have you ever even read the scriptures that came before Mohammed?)
i think this is the center of this thread..You know at my age of 18 i started wondering and having interest about Bible and Christianity. So i decided to read atleast few verses of Bilble but when i opened the Bible at the first page of it, i read it and it was like a warning to the readers that it sounds like that the Bible is has serious errors or mistakes..Then why should i read it if even the Bible itself is committing a mistake in the content of bible...
Anyway i can print the part of the Bible i was saying and post it here if you want.
Quote from: fiannes on August 04, 2010, 07:53:53 AM
(Have you gone "far, far, astray"? Have you ever even read the scriptures that came before Mohammed?)
i think this is the center of this thread..You know at my age of 18 i started wondering and having interest about Bible and Christianity.
Hi fiannes, and welcome to the forum! :)
If your question was about Christianity, then I presume that you read from the Gospel.
Quote from: fiannes on August 04, 2010, 07:53:53 AMSo i decided to read atleast few verses of Bilble but when i opened the Bible at the first page of it, i read it and it was like a warning to the readers that it sounds like that the Bible is has serious errors or mistakes..
But you can see in the original post that even Mohammed declared
in the 7th century, long after the Bible had been copied thousands of times, into many languages, that ...
Sura 80.13
(It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour, 14 Exalted (in dignity),
kept pure and holy,15 (Written) by the hands of scribes- 16 Honourable and Pious and Just.
.... so you are perhaps just misunderstanding what you are reading.
Why don't you look at this copy and pasted KJV Gospel of John, that was penned toward the end of Yahweh's revelation to us, and see if you can come up with what you consider to be a mistake?
Portions of it are bolded and enlarged to help a little with your reading.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm
Are you a Muslim, fiannes?
A few questions have may have been answered in the thread at this link, in my chat with this young student.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=707.0
Quote from: fiannes on August 04, 2010, 07:53:53 AMThen why should i read it if even the Bible itself is committing a mistake in the content of bible...
Anyway i can print the part of the Bible i was saying and post it here if you want.
The Scriptures were revealed over 1600 years, through all of the prophets and witnesses that Yahweh chose to reveal Himself through. It stretches from when mankind consisted of little more than desert dwelling nomads, and continued on until we find a quite advanced 1st century civilization.
The Gospel according to John opens like this
(KJV) John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light. 9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
God "manifest" or revealed Himself to us in the flesh of Jesus (Yahshua), as a perfect and sinless man, to provide the perfect example for all mankind to follow.
The "John" mentioned in verse 6 is not the author, but is a reference to John the Baptist, that prepared the way for Yahshua.
Just as it was prophesied many hundreds of years in advance by the prophet Isaiah in the Old Testament.
Isaiah 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
The fulfillment of that prophecy we find in the the witness of Matthew in the New Testament.
Matthew 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
You see? The fulfillment of prophecy that was written about 700 years in advance of the actual event, is how we can rest assured that the Scriptures are true, and that God (Yahweh) inspired those Scriptures.
But if you really want to understand what you are reading, you have to pray to Yahshua, and sincerely ask Him to come into your heart and mind, to help and guide your study.
Did you ever see the movie "The Gospel of John"? It is available instantly as a streaming video on Netflix if you, or anyone else looking on, happens to subscribe to that service. Otherwise maybe you can rent it. It is a reasonably accurate depiction of what is expressed in the Gospel, and would be a fun and easy way to be introduced to the Gospel.
( http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm )
about to begin reading this brother pete..
Have you heard about the Awake Magazine dated Sept. 8, 1957??
is it true?
Quote from: fiannes on August 06, 2010, 07:14:50 AM
( http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm )
about to begin reading this brother pete..
Have you heard about the Awake Magazine dated Sept. 8, 1957??
is it true?
Digging back pretty far in time to dredge up the idle words of men aren't you?
In a quick search I see that it refers to a Jehovah's Witness article regarding their false perception - that is born of necessity - that the bible contains errors (beyond a handful of scribal errors that in no way change the passages in which they are found). Jehovah's Witness is a cult that follows a 19th century false prophet named Charles Taze Russell. Like Mormons and Muslims they must believe that Scripture was somehow corrupted, because it doesn't fit what their false prophets taught. The abundance of "recovery" sites for these cults attests to their relative truth and the brainwashing required to indoctrinate their followers.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1237.0
Their claims of Bible corruption show an ignorance to Hebrew scribal methodology, as well as to the 5700 partial or complete manuscripts we have of the Gospel that were penned prior to 300 AD, in every popular language in the known world. Let alone the perhaps tens of thousands of times Scripture had been copied by the time Mohammed's "Allah" supposedly gave him the "revelations" in the original post.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0
So are you suggesting that Mohammed lied in the verses in the original post?
Or that he didn't know the Scriptures had been corrupted?
Or that he lied when he said they had been "kept pure and holy"?
So are you suggesting that Mohammed lied in the verses in the original post?
Or that he didn't know the Scriptures had been corrupted?
Or that he lied when he said they had been "kept pure and holy"; )
Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says:
“...Not so the New Testament...There is condensation and editing; there is choice reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history...â€
Dr. Lobegott Friedrich Konstantin Von Tischendorf, one of the most adamant conservative Christian defenders of the Trinity was himself driven to admit that:
“[the New Testament had] in many passages undergone such serious modification of meaning as to leave us in painful uncertainty as to what the Apostles had actually writtenâ€
Dr. W Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, a prestigious Christian evangelical mission, says:
“..Yes, the Bible is human, although some out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men and bear in their style the characteristics of men….It is Human, Yet Divine,â€
Pete, Muhammed is not lying in the original post, in the original post Muhammed is pointing out a scripture who is written by scribes after Allah taken the soul of Jesus.The original one.
Pete you pointed out a scripture that are existing now which is copied and EDITED...'
Quote from: fiannes on August 06, 2010, 08:17:55 AM
( So are you suggesting that Mohammed lied in the verses in the original post?
Or that he didn't know the Scriptures had been corrupted?
Or that he lied when he said they had been "kept pure and holy"? )
I couldn't see your quotes until I pushed the quote function. Copy and pasting text that contains those little diamonds sometimes glitch the software.
You again comfort yourself with the words and opinions of men.
Can you not see that
by the 7th century, the Old and New Testament that the "people of the book" were following, is the same as it is today? It would be ridiculous to suggest otherwise.
Or are you suggesting that somehow, all those scriptures, translated into all those languages over centuries before Mohammed, were somehow changed
after the 7th century to become the
exact opposite of what it had been? The
exact opposite, as Mohammed taught you what
not to believe?
How many religions do you suppose there are, whose very basis, at their very core, instruct
what not to believe?
why my post is cannot posted fully?
Quote from: fiannes on August 06, 2010, 08:28:48 AM
why my post is cannot posted fully?
I explained it in the beginning of my post. If you want I can try to edit in your post. (Just screwed up my quoting of it by trying to copy and paste it there.)
yeah it is the same book that people are following now but the content of that book is not already
100% the same..it is edited..
Dr. Lobegott Friedrich Konstantin Von Tischendorf, one of the most adamant conservative Christian defenders of the Trinity was himself driven to admit that:
"the New Testament had in many passages undergone such serious modification of meaning as to leave us in painful uncertainty as to what the Apostles had actually written"
Pete, Muhammed is not lying in the original post, in the original post Muhammed is pointing out a scripture who is written by scribes after Allah taken the soul of Jesus.The original one.
Pete you pointed out a scripture that are existing now which is copied and EDITED.
Brother Pete, you believe that the Bible that is existing now is no errors?
or modified?
(disappeared then restored from database)
Quote from: fiannes on August 06, 2010, 08:35:55 AM
(So are you suggesting that Mohammed lied in the verses in the original post?
Or that he didn't know the Scriptures had been corrupted?
Or that he lied when he said they had been "kept pure and holy"? )
Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says:
“...Not so the New Testament...There is condensation and editing; there is choice reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history...â€
Dr. Lobegott Friedrich Konstantin Von Tischendorf, one of the most adamant conservative Christian defenders of the Trinity was himself driven to admit that:
"[the New Testament had] in many passages undergone such serious modification of meaning as to leave us in painful uncertainty as to what the Apostles had actually writtenâ€
Dr. W Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, a prestigious Christian evangelical mission, says:
“..Yes, the Bible is human, although some out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men and bear in their style the characteristics of men….It is Human, Yet Divine,â€
Pete, Muhammed is not lying in the original post, in the original post Muhammed is pointing out a scripture who is written by scribes after Allah taken the soul of Jesus.The original one.
Pete you pointed out a scripture that are existing now which is copied and EDITED...
[edit add - I was able to bring out the full quote by erasing the space in between the two lines that caused the failure and manually spacing it out again. Also the statement following this edit is
most egregiously wrong, confusing the Episcopal Church with the Anglican Church.
The men that you quoted did not support the conclusion that you reached.
We will discuss why it is you chose each of these 19th and 20th century men's textual criticism on an appropriate thread. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.msg7133#msg7133
This thread is about Mohammed's 7th century praise of the scriptures that preceded him. - end edit]
But you also quoted an Episcopalian and those guys even ordain homosexuals.
What Muslims often fail to understand is that just because someone is willing to say something doesn't make it so.
Quote from: fiannes on August 06, 2010, 08:39:33 AM
Brother Pete, you believe that the Bible that is existing now is no errors?
or modified?
We need to discuss the questions I asked of you before you present more. All we ask of members in here is that they engage in DIAlogue.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1704.msg7118#msg7118
Quote from: fiannes on August 06, 2010, 08:35:55 AM
yeah it is the same book that people are following now but the content of that book is not already
100% the same..it is edited..
Or are you suggesting that somehow, all those scriptures, translated into all those languages over centuries before Mohammed, were somehow changed after the 7th century to become the exact opposite of what it had been?
And not only edited to be less than "100%", but rather edited to become
the exact opposite of what the Gospel had been?
QuoteYou again comfort yourself with the words and opinions of men.
I comfort with a words and opinions from you too.
QuoteOr are you suggesting that somehow, all those scriptures, translated into all those languages over centuries before Mohammed, were somehow changed after the 7th century to become the exact opposite of what it had been?
Changed but not become the exact opposite of it.
QuoteBut you also quoted an Episcopalian and those guys even ordain homosexuals.
Is this a reason to not believe them?
Quote from: fiannes on August 06, 2010, 09:09:05 AM
QuoteYou again comfort yourself with the words and opinions of men.
I comfort with a words and opinions from you too.
QuoteOr are you suggesting that somehow, all those scriptures, translated into all those languages over centuries before Mohammed, were somehow changed after the 7th century to become the exact opposite of what it had been?
Changed but not become the exact opposite of it.
If you had continued to read the Gospel you would have realized that your claim is false. Islam is indeed the opposite of the Gospel. The following Scriptures are not "words and opinions" of mine.
You can read each of their accounts of this event at the following link.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1175.0
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Matthew 27:35 And
they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots:
that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.Mark 15:24 And when
they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
Luke 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death,
and have crucified him.John 19:23 Then the soldiers,
when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also [his] coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.
Just as it was prophesied about a thousand years in advance of the event.Psalms 22:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=22&v=16&t=KJV#16) For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me:
they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me. 18
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. Simply glance at these hundreds of verses from the Gospel.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=56.msg148#msg148
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=316.0
Matthew 3:17 And lo
a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Mark 1:11 And there came
a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Luke 9:35 And there came
a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
2Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when
there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Just as it was prophesied about 700 years in advance of the event.Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us
a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and
his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor,
The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
I earlier provided a link to the questions that you left unanswered. It works best to keep things organized in the order they are presented. Perhaps it would be easiest if we stick to a single point at a time.
Again, and embellishing further to help you understand the question ...
How many religions do you suppose there are, whose very basis - that at their very core - instruct their adherents as to what to disbelieve?
Even to the extent of disbelieving the specific and entire basis - the core - of a religion that preceded it.
Even while it is a religion that is based on the self-contradictory and thus heavily abrogated (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0) testimony, of a single self-proclaimed and self-serving "prophet", who not only contradicted but who was (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=53.0), and taught, the exact opposite of all of the prophets, apostles and witnesses of Yahshua.
And Yahweh's people, that Mohammed eventually railed against.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0
Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
After you have answered that question perhaps you can try this one.
Where did Mohammed ever claim the Gospel was corrupted?
Quote
If you had continued to read the Gospel you would have realized that your claim is false. Islam is indeed the opposite of the Gospel.
Not agreee, not ALL verse in Gospel is opposite of the Islam, there are verses which refers to Mohammed, but this is not what we are talking about. We are talking about a scripture before Mohammed, were somehow changed after 7th century.
Quote
How many religions do you suppose there are, whose very basis - that at their very core - instruct their adherents as to what to disbelieve?
This is not part of our discussion. <<--- I learned it from you..
QuoteAfter you have answered that question perhaps you can try this one.
Where did Mohammed ever claim the Gospel was corrupted?
Mohammed didn't. Who claim it? Christian Scholars.
Now,Brother Pete, do you believe that the Bible that is existing now have errors?
or modified? I think you don't even many Christians does.
You need to respond
to all the points in these replies, and in order. I am going to trust you to do that so I am going to make several replies at once to speed things up.
Please do not ignore any points. Chop the posts up into pieces to reply.
Quote from: fiannes on August 07, 2010, 02:31:32 AM
Quote
If you had continued to read the Gospel you would have realized that your claim is false. Islam is indeed the opposite of the Gospel.
Not agreee, not ALL verse in Gospel is opposite of the Islam, ......
Sorry my friend, but
the whole subject of the Gospel is
the opposite of Islam. The new covenant through the crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Yahsuha, and salvation through faith in His shed blood, is what the new covenant is all about. That is all that matters about the New Testament - all a person needs to know.
There has not been a single Christian over the course of the last nearly 2,000 years that has not believed that Yeshua sacrificed Himself to save the whole world through faith in His shed blood. If someone didn't believe that then they simply wouldn't be a Christian.
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
The name "Yahshua" means "Yahweh saves".
Yet Mohammed taught the EXACT OPPOSITE of the testimony of all of those witnesses of Yahshua.
I gave you links to hundreds of verses that declare Yahshua to be the Son of Yahweh and Yahweh to be His Father. Yet the jealous fallen angel that spoke through Mohammed deceived you into believing
the EXACT OPPOSITE of that.
You must REJECT ALL of the prophets, apostles and witnesses of that new covenant, to follow the STAND-ALONE 23 year 7th century record of A SINGLE self-proclaimed self-serving "prophet" Mohammed.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=53.0
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and
he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.You were
taught to DISbelieve the Gospel by Satan through his false prophet Mohammed, and you do disbelieve it, even though you've never read it.
When I ask Mohammed's followers
who did die on the cross, I get as many answers as Muslims that I ask. In other words Mohammed's followers are ".... full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow ...", while Christians have no doubt whatsoever, and even Jews believe that Yahsuha died. That's because
you were only taught WHAT TO DISBELIEVE.Yet the false prophet Mohammed comes along 500 years later and DECLARES THE EXACT OPPOSITE.
I would be amazed at the number of people that follow him, in spite of his personal behavior, but have come to understand the power of the spirit of antichrist.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=624.0
Quote from: fiannes on August 07, 2010, 02:31:32 AM....... there are verses which refers to Mohammed .........
There are indeed verses that refer to Mohammed, but not the ones you have been taught by Greek sophist styled entertainers and antichrist liars, like Ahmed Deedat.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=335.0
Are you in the habit of doing book reports on books you never read?Why don't you try reading the Gospel instead of relying on liars like that? Why don't you stop wasting your time, talking about something that you don't know about, and read it instead?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm
Much of the nonsense you have been taught about Mohammed in Scripture, by proven liars like Deedat, is covered in the category at this link.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=33.0
The fact is that Mohammed WAS, and taught, the EXACT OPPOSITE of Yahshua.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=53.0
Here are a few verses in the New Testament that
do refer to Mohammed, and to other false prophets, like those I mentioned previously that have deceived part of the "church".
Make no mistake, all unsound doctrine is the work of Satan.Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
But Mohammed didn't even bother with sheep's clothing, but came as a ravening wolf.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=53.0
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
The prophet Daniel defines the term "beast" as a kingdom. In this verse the "beast" is Mohammed's Islamic empire.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where
the beast and
the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=12.0
You are being carried to your destruction, my young friend. Forever is a very long time.
Quote from: fiannes on August 07, 2010, 02:31:32 AM...... there are verses which refers to Mohammed, but this is not what we are talking about. We are talking about a scripture before Mohammed, were somehow changed after 7th century.
You have still not answered to the subject of this thread. The Gospel is the same today as it was in the 7th century. How do you explain the verses in the original post?
Where in the Quran does Mohammed say the Gospel is corrupted?
Quote from: fiannes on August 07, 2010, 02:31:32 AM
Quote
If you had continued to read the Gospel you would have realized that your claim is false. Islam is indeed the opposite of the Gospel.
Not agreee,
You never even read the Gospel, so how are you in a position to agree or disagree? Consider the opposites at this link.
Quote from: fiannes on August 07, 2010, 02:31:32 AM.... not ALL verse in Gospel is opposite of the Islam, .......
Don't get lost in fringe details pretending that this verse here, or that verse there, might support Mohammed, because Christianity and Mohammedan could not be more opposite in their cores. Consider the difference in the fruit. Why do Sunnis target for slaughter innocent Shiite men, women and children? Why do parents kill their own children to preserve their "honor"?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=54.0
Quote from: fiannes on August 07, 2010, 02:31:32 AM
Quote
How many religions do you suppose there are, whose very basis - that at their very core - instruct their adherents as to what to disbelieve?
This is not part of our discussion. <<--- I learned it from you..
And now that you have "learned" it you must be able to understand that you must make a choice.
Between the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind through ALL of His prophets and apostles and witnesses, that His people have followed for 3500 years.
Scripture that instructs Yahweh's people in
what to believe.
But you believe the EXACT OPPOSITE that you have been taught, through the false prophet Mohammed that came along 500 years later, with thinly repackaged Arabian pagan worship. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1282.0
A STAND-ALONE 23 year record of a single self-proclaimed prophet whose "Allah" instructed his followers
what to DISbelieve.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=59.0
I even showed you that the crucifixion of Yeshua was prophesied 700 years in advance of the event.
Psalms 22:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=22&v=16&t=KJV#16) For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me:
they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me. 18
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. Now that you have learned that, you will be without excuse, when standing before the Son of Yahweh in judgment.
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Now that you have seen, you must decide. Between a faith that instructs what to believe through all of Yahweh's prophets and witnesses, or Mohammed and what to DISbelieve.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
Quote from: fiannes on August 07, 2010, 02:31:32 AM
QuoteAfter you have answered that question perhaps you can try this one.
Where did Mohammed ever claim the Gospel was corrupted?
Mohammed didn't. Who claim it? Christian Scholars.
So now you follow Christian scholars that specifically contradict Mohammed?
It would indeed be utterly ridiculous to suggest that the Gospel was changed AFTER the 7th century, when it had been copied tens of thousands of times, and was being read all over the known world. Particularly changed to become the EXACT OPPOSITE, of the rape, pillage and plunder that Mohammed engaged in and taught.
So how do you reconcile this?
(We can discuss those "scholars" you cited on the appropriate thread, where I already copied your post to, and posted my first few questions.)
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.30
Quote from: fiannes on August 07, 2010, 02:34:10 AM
Now,Brother Pete, do you believe that the Bible that is existing now have errors?
or modified? I think you don't even many Christians does.
I believe there perhaps are a small handful of scribal errors
that do not change the meanings of the passages in which they are found in any significant way whatsoever. One reason it has been handed down very much intact, as confirmed by the discovery of the dead sea scrolls, is Hebrew scribal methodology.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0
Since I am English speaking, and my King James Version is a translation from Hebrew and Greek (and a little Syriac), there are a few words that might have been translated better. That's why I use Greek/English and Hebrew/English interlinears and Strong's definitions to help me understand more fully. Though
none of these minor translation errors fundamentally change the passages in which they are found. The many many hundreds of passages, that
the WITNESSES of Yahshua penned, that are THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what the STAND-ALONE false prophet Mohammed contradicted 500 years later, are truth.
But a person doesn't need to be a scholar, or even to have read the whole Bible, since all a person
needs to know about the Gospel, and believe with their whole heart about Yahshua, is this one-verse summary of the Gospel ...
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And what about the Quran? Consider the false, and 7th and 8th century pure historical fiction, of Islam.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0
Even Mohammed knew what a mess he made of his own recitations.
2:106 (Asad) Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
Does that read like divine inspiration, or the changing whims of a self-serving "prophet", who even cut himself in for 1/5 of the property stolen from others, just like a Mafia Don.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=951.0
You have now been shown the only plausible answer to this thread. Mohammed's earlier recitations are rendered as nothing more than garbage, because they are abrogated by his later, violent ones. That's why
true Muslims are targeting innocents for murder all around the world, just like Mohammed did.
Verses like those in the original post must be ignored and contradicted.
That's why you suffer under the delusion that you can throw out 3/4 of the Gospel, and preposterously and falsely pretend that the remaining 1/4, that doesn't specifically and directly contradict Mohammed's STAND-ALONE RECORD, somehow serve Mohammedanism. Why not read the Gospel for yourself?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm
Try this. Why not start with the First Epistle of John, from the same version Deedat pretended to quote from, and see if you agree with Deedat that it confirms Mohammed as a true prophet, and not an antichrist.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=273.0
1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself:
he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
Mohammed is why most everywhere we find murder, mayhem and misery, all around the world today, we find Islam.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=52.0
"Gerd Puin, the world's leading specialist in Arabic calligraphy and Qur'anic paleography, studying the oldest manuscripts, speaks with disdain about the willingness of Muslims and non-Muslims alike, to accept Islamic dogma. He says: "The Qur'an claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or clear, but if you just look at it, you will see that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur'an is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur'an is not comprehensible, if it can't even be understood in Arabic, then it's not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid."
Discuss the Quran and Hadith in that category.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=41.0
I already gave you a link to our discussion regarding the textual criticism of your "scholars", already in progress.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.30
Regarding Mohammed's "inspiration" here
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=452.0
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Quote from: Peter on August 06, 2010, 08:39:52 AM
Pete, Muhammed is not lying in the original post, in the original post Muhammed is pointing out a scripture who is written by scribes after Allah taken the soul of Jesus.The original one.
Right. "The original one".
So where is this "original one"? Please show us.
If you can't show us the original, then you are admitting that Mohammed's "Allah" was ignorant to what the future would bring, when he inspired the verses in the original post.
Besides the necessary and preposterous notion, that somehow the entire Gospel became the exact opposite of what it had been,
after the 7th century when Mohammed recited those verses.
The Gospel was the same before, and the same after, my friend. CHRISTians have been Christians for almost 2,000 years. Followers of CHRIST THE Messiah - THE anointed one.
QuoteThe new covenant through the crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Yahsuha, and salvation through faith in His shed blood,
I understand that Jesus is your God who crucified, died, punish in order to save you. Lets make it clear
"God crucified" "God died" "God punish by his own slaves"
Is it ugly to hear?right? can you accept it that your God suffered like that?How powerless is He if that
the only way he can save us. We Muslims believe that the man who crucified and died is not Jesus.
QuoteYou were taught to DISbelieve the Gospel by Satan through his false prophet Mohammed
Chapter 16 verse 12-14
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.
Who He is referring? He is referring to Satan? thats what you are saying.
QuoteMohammed's followers are ".... full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow ..."
I dont think so that verse is referring to Mohammed's follower. I think it refers to you Pete.
QuoteYou are being carried to your destruction, my young friend. Forever is a very long time.
Let's see brother Pete.
Quote
You have still not answered to the subject of this thread. The Gospel is the same today as it was in the 7th century. How do you explain the verses in the original post?
Gospel is not the same today as it was in the 7th century. The verses in the original post like what i said it refers to the scripture that exist during the 7th century not today.
QuoteWhere in the Quran does Mohammed say the Gospel is corrupted?
"Jesus, I will take you back and raise you up to Me and purify you of those who are unbelievers. And I will place the people who follow you above those who are unbelievers until the Day of Resurrection..." (Qur'an, 3:55)
This verse says that Jesus is not dead nor died in the cross. The Gospel say Jesus died and crucified. So the Gospel is opposite of this. So the Gospel is not the same today as it was written at the very first time. So Gospel is now corrupted.
QuoteRight. "The original one".
So where is this "original one"? Please show us.
Im afraid i can't. Its lost
You can you show me the very source of it?what its look like before?
WHEN THE FIRST SCRIBES WROTE IT,WAS IT CALLED "KING JAMES VERSION"?
Who is Yahshua and Jesus? Are they the same?
When the name "Yahshua" translated in other languange become "Jesus".
So when your name Peter translated in other language what would be your name?
Quote from: fiannes on August 08, 2010, 03:30:01 AM
QuoteThe new covenant through the crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Yahsuha, and salvation through faith in His shed blood,
I understand that Jesus is your God who crucified, died, punish in order to save you. Lets make it clear
"God crucified" "God died" "God punish by his own slaves"
Yahweh doesn't keep slaves. Satan keeps slaves. You are a slave of Satan, my friend. That's why you understand "Allah" (the moon god) to be a slave driver.
The people that Yahshua sacrificed Himself to - more of Satan's slaves - were not the people that He sacrificed Himself
for - His children. His killers weren't in Yahweh's kingdom. Just like Yahweh's innocent people are being slaughtered by Muslims in much of Africa - by the million - and throughout the rest of the world today.
That's pretty ugly isn't it? That Muslims would slaughter, rape and subjugate innocent people to slavery. Yet they are only doing what Mohammed did.
Yet persecution has been the lot of Yahweh's people throughout the Christian era. Indeed it's what we were promised.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
Christians and Jews being slaughtered is ugly, but the reward is great. That's why Christians understand that
Phl 1:21 For to me to live [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain.
Quote from: fiannes on August 08, 2010, 03:30:01 AM
Is it ugly to hear?right? can you accept it that your God suffered like that?
I can, because He did. He suffered for me and everyone else that has faith in His shed blood.
I believe it because the records of Christians, Jews and the secular historical record also attest. You deny it because of A SINGLE 7th century murdering thief.
The Jews that had Him killed were expecting a great conquering king. Just like you would. That's why many Jews didn't recognize Him as the Messiah. He did indeed come as a conquering king, but what He conquered is death - for all those who have faith in His shed blood.
I am sorry but it is preposterous to suggest that Yahweh would send a murdering, prisoner raping thief along, 500 years later, to teach THE EXACT OPPOSITE of Yahshua through all of His prophets and witnesses. I showed you the verses that warn of that, as well as the fate of those who follow false prophets.
I can believe it because He died
and was resurrected after 3 days just like He indicated to His apostles He would be.
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them,
Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21
But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Yet you reject the blood and resurrection that would save you, to follow a reprobate false prophet, who died a wimpy death in bed finally succumbing to a prior poisoning, and whose corpse still lies rotting in it's shallow grave.
You cannot see the things of the Spirit of God, because you are of the flesh, and not the Spirit.
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
You are making your own god based on what is or is not "ugly to hear" through your carnal ears and mind, just like Mohammed did. A god of your own desires.
How did Yahshua's witnesses die? Here's a short video that details a few.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4rtYAO3UxA
They were slaughtered by Satan's people, the same way Yahweh's innocent followers are being slaughtered by Muslims all around the world today.
"Once again, women are the targets. In mid-March, rebels assaulted three women gathering firewood and cut off their ears, lips, and breasts."
"Starting in 2003, Janjaweed Arabs, a Sudan-backed militia, have driven 2 million villagers from their homes in ethnic-cleansing attacks designed to suppress local rebels."
"Eyewitness accounts detailing the militia attacks are horrifying. "They killed my 3-year-old son right in front of my eyes," one father from West Darfur said. Since last fall, women have reported more than 500 rapes. Three women said five militiamen beat and raped them last August. The women said, "After they abused us, they told us that now we would have Arab babies. And, if they would find any [more] women, they would rape them again to change the color of their children.""
QuoteJust like Yahweh's innocent people are being slaughtered by Muslims in much of Africa - by the million - and throughout the rest of the world today. That's pretty ugly isn't it? That Muslims would slaughter, rape and subjugate innocent people to slavery. Yet they are only doing what Mohammed did.
My dear brother Peter, Speaking of violence. Islam or Quran is teaching a good one. That people you are saying is not a Muslim, I think you know what is Muslim. Once a person is against or violate the law of Allah they were not Muslim. You are accusing Mohammed of this kind of violence,otherwise you are saying Mohammed is not a Muslim.
You are generalizing who is bad and good. I'll help you to generalize people. First find out what mostly the religion of ALL inmates in the whole world. I'll tell you in my country mostly,almost all of the violence is done by your co-Christians
Quote from: fiannes on August 08, 2010, 03:30:01 AMHow powerless .......
My friend, it is death that became powerless. How did Jesus weigh in on your suggestion?
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.Quote from: fiannes on August 08, 2010, 03:30:01 AM....... is He if that
the only way he can save us.
It's how Yahweh CHOSE to save us.
If He had wanted to, he could have appeared in front of each and every one of us, and continuously accompanied us throughout our daily lives, physically sat in a chair right beside us, couldn't He?
But that isn't how He chose to reveal Himself to us.
What was the alter in the temple for?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=519.0
Quote from: fiannes on August 08, 2010, 03:30:01 AMWe Muslims believe that the man who crucified and died is not Jesus.
Muslims have no idea whatsoever what to believe, because Satan - the jealous fallen angel, through the false prophet Mohammed
only taught you what to DISbelieve.
Look at the wide array of different views of your brethren "...who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow..." at this link.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=628.0
Whereas Christians have been in complete resolve for the last 2.000 years, that Yahshua was crucified died and was resurrected,.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=639.0
Quote from: fiannes on August 08, 2010, 07:56:11 AM
QuoteJust like Yahweh's innocent people are being slaughtered by Muslims in much of Africa - by the million - and throughout the rest of the world today. That's pretty ugly isn't it? That Muslims would slaughter, rape and subjugate innocent people to slavery. Yet they are only doing what Mohammed did.
My dear brother Peter, Speaking of violence. Islam or Quran is teaching a good one. That people you are saying is not a Muslim, I think you know what is Muslim. Once a person is against or violate the law of Allah they were not Muslim. You are accusing Mohammed of this kind of violence,otherwise you are saying Mohammed is not a Muslim.
My friend it is YOU that is not a Muslim. Islamic murderers all around the world are simply doing as the false prophet Mohammed did. Just like during the Islamic first jihad slaughter, rape, pillage and plunder all the way up to France and Austria.
Tabari VIII:35/Ishaq:464 "The Jews were made to come down, and Allah's Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina (it is still its marketplace today), and he had trenches dug in it.
He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men."
Mohammed and the boys enjoyed raping the surviving prisoners too.
Bukhari:V5B59N459 "I entered the Mosque, saw Abu, sat beside him and asked about sex. Abu Said said, '
We went out with Allah's Apostle and we received female slaves from among the captives. We desired women and we loved to do coitus interruptus.'"
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1564.0
Quote from: fiannes on August 08, 2010, 07:56:11 AM
You are generalizing who is bad and good. I'll help you to generalize people. First find out what mostly the religion of ALL inmates in the whole world. I'll tell you in my country mostly,almost all of the violence is done by your co-Christians
You are the one that needs to find out about Mohammedanism.
You are the peacenick apostate that those murderous reprobates in the middle east cradle of your religion -
that get Islam - would cut the head off of quicker than they would mine - and you know that.
Perhaps you could share what country you are speaking of and what violence is being perpetrated by Christians, IN AN APPROPRIATE THREAD. You have blown enough smokescreen in this thread to try to run and hide from the truth of the subject of this thread. Perhaps I need to move all of the unrelated posts, to related threads, so you don't keep trying to change the subject.
Quote from: fiannes on August 08, 2010, 03:30:01 AM
Quote
You have still not answered to the subject of this thread. The Gospel is the same today as it was in the 7th century. How do you explain the verses in the original post?
Gospel is not the same today as it was in the 7th century. The verses in the original post like what i said it refers to the scripture that exist during the 7th century not today.
I see. So then "Allah" was so clueless about the future that he didn't even know that the "original" Gospel would become extinct - that it would become the EXACT OPPOSITE of what it had been - when he told Christians to follow what "Allah" had revealed therein?
Why would he offer such a directive for a book that he should have known would not exist right after he offered the directive?
Quote from: fiannes on August 08, 2010, 03:30:01 AM
Quote
You have still not answered to the subject of this thread. The Gospel is the same today as it was in the 7th century. How do you explain the verses in the original post?
Gospel is not the same today as it was in the 7th century. The verses in the original post like what i said it refers to the scripture that exist during the 7th century not today.
So what happened to the tens of thousands of copies of Scripture, that had been translated into every popular language, and were being read all over the known world?
We know the various versions of the Quran had to be collected up and burned on 2 separate occasions.
But where is there a record of such a book burning in Christianity?
Quote from: fiannes on August 08, 2010, 03:30:01 AM
Quote
You have still not answered to the subject of this thread. The Gospel is the same today as it was in the 7th century. How do you explain the verses in the original post?
Gospel is not the same today as it was in the 7th century. The verses in the original post like what i said it refers to the scripture that exist during the 7th century not today.
How did Christians, all around the world, that had been following Yahshua for 650 years, all of a sudden start believing the EXACT OPPOSITE of the Gospel they had followed for 650 years?
Quote from: fiannes on August 08, 2010, 03:30:01 AM
Quote
You have still not answered to the subject of this thread. The Gospel is the same today as it was in the 7th century. How do you explain the verses in the original post?
Gospel is not the same today as it was in the 7th century. The verses in the original post like what i said it refers to the scripture that exist during the 7th century not today.
What century did the Gospel suddenly change in? The 7th century, right after "Allah" told Mohammed that Sura 80.13 (It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour, 14 Exalted (in dignity),
kept pure and holy,15 (Written) by the hands of scribes- 16 Honourable and Pious and Just.
Did the Gospel become the EXACT OPPOSITE in the 8th century? The 10th century? The 15th century? The 20th century?
Was "Allah" just that ignorant? Otherwise why else would he instruct of a book that he knew would soon disappear....
Sura 5:47
Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
What century? How did the switch take place?
After responding to each of the posts above, RELATED TO THIS THREAD, in order .....
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1704.msg7175#msg7175
..... please then respond to these replies provided to your post on textual criticism of Scripture.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.30
Quote from: fiannes on August 08, 2010, 03:30:51 AM
Who is Yahshua and Jesus? Are they the same?
When the name "Yahshua" translated in other languange become "Jesus".
So when your name Peter translated in other language what would be your name?
The name Yahshua is a transliteration of the original Hebrew name for the Messiah and means "YHWH saves" or "Yahweh saves". Why do you suppose Yahshua's name means that "Yahweh saves"?
Explored more at this link.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1728.0
Quote from: fiannes on August 08, 2010, 03:30:01 AM
QuoteWhere in the Quran does Mohammed say the Gospel is corrupted?
"Jesus, I will take you back and raise you up to Me and purify you of those who are unbelievers. And I will place the people who follow you above those who are unbelievers until the Day of Resurrection..." (Qur'an, 3:55)
This verse says that Jesus is not dead nor died in the cross. The Gospel say Jesus died and crucified. So the Gospel is opposite of this. So the Gospel is not the same today as it was written at the very first time. So Gospel is now corrupted.
I'm sorry but that verse does not say the Gospel is corrupted. You are making a self-serving false declaration, based on a false presumption, from a false reading of the verse. Find another. We are already well aware that the verses in the original post
contradict the Quran. That is not what I am asking for.
Mohammed is saying that Mohammed will put Yahshua's followers, above unbelievers. But what Mohammed decides is irrelevant.
Yahweh's people have followed Him through two covenants, by His 1600 year record through all of the prophets and witnesses, for the last 3500 years.
Quote from: Peter on July 30, 2010, 09:44:03 AM
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/
THE QURAN ON SCRIPTURE
A printable foldable PDF tract of this subject available at this link (http://www.islamandthetruth.com/c9.pdf). More PDF tracts here (http://www.islamandthetruth.com/free_tracts.htm).
What does the Quran say about the bible? The following suras are from the popular Yusuf Ali English translation. Mohammed was instructed by Allah about where to get his advice if he had doubts:
Sura 10:94 If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
That verse was written hundreds of years after the bible had been translated into every popular language, and was being read all over the known world. Indeed we have over 5300 (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/bible_manuscript_errors_.htm) partial or complete manuscripts of God�s Word that were penned prior to 300AD.
Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
So Christian's are specifically instructed by Mohammed's "Allah" to judge - even Islam - according to what God has revealed to us in the Gospel. Perhaps the most widely quoted verse in the Gospel is:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
But the Quran says in surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
WHERE IS THE CONTRADICTION THE BIBLE TALKS OF GIVING AND THE QURAN TALKS ABOUT...."KILLED HIM NOT"
ARE YOU MENTALLY CHALLENGED OR DO YOU NOT KNOW FALSEHOOD FROM TRUTH, HOW DO YOU RALATE ... "GIve his only begotten son the the verse? SO LET ME UNDERSTAND THIS CORRECTLY GOD (LORD OF THE UNIVERSE CREATOR OF LIFE< GAVE A SON HIS ONLY? (DOES THE BIBLE NOT SPEAK OF SONS OF GOD? < TO BE KILLED BY ROMAN SOLDIERS WHILE HE GOD LOOK ON? THE CONTRLLER AND FASHIONER OF THE UNIVERSE HAS NO POWER TO SHO US BUT BUT THROUGH AN ACT OF GROSS VIOLENCE AGAINST HIS OWN FAMILY? WHAT DOES BETTON MEAN< FATHERED? BUT YOU SAY JESUS IS THE FATHER? SO JESUS FATHERED HIMSELF, SO HOW IS HE HIS OWN SON?????
I USE UPPER CASE SO AS NOT TO FALL INTO YOUR MISGUIDED TRAP OF MAKING THINGS UPPER CASE TO MISLEAD OTHERS>
In Jesus words from the gospel of Matthew 26:28 (http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_matthew.htm#matthew_28) For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/
THE QURAN ON SCRIPTUREA printable foldable PDF tract of this subject available at this link (http://www.islamandthetruth.com/c9.pdf). More PDF tracts here (http://www.islamandthetruth.com/free_tracts.htm).
What does the Quran say about the bible? The following suras are from the popular Yusuf Ali English translation. Mohammed was instructed by Allah about where to get his advice if he had doubts:
Sura 10:94 If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then
ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
That verse was written hundreds of years after the bible had been translated into every popular language, and was being read all over the known world. Indeed we have over 5300 (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/bible_manuscript_errors_.htm) partial or complete manuscripts of God's Word that were penned prior to 300AD.
Sura 5:47
Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
So Christian's are specifically instructed by Mohammed's "Allah" to judge - even Islam - according to what God has revealed to us in the Gospel. Perhaps the most widely quoted verse in the Gospel is:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that
he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
But the Quran says in surah 4:157 That
they said (in boast), "
We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";-
but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow,
for of a surety they killed him not:-
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 24, 2010, 09:51:20 AM
WHERE IS THE CONTRADICTION THE BIBLE TALKS OF GIVING AND THE QURAN TALKS ABOUT...."KILLED HIM NOT"
It is transparent why you ignored the subject of this thread. Mohammed's alter ego "Allah" telling people of the Gospel to judge by what is revealed therein, and telling Mohammed if he had questions to ask of those before him, when he went ahead created his own laws - even his own sabbath day - just to spite the Jews.
The fact is those verses were from his ambling, more docile, dithering on days in Mecca, before he had his psychotic break and picked up the sword. (order of "revelation" (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=609.0))
Regarding the verse you did quote on, it's what makes Mohammedanism
the exact opposite of the Gospel which is
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0
all about
why God gave His only begotten Son.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
The witnesses. Reply there after reading the OP not here.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1175.0
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 24, 2010, 09:51:20 AMARE YOU MENTALLY CHALLENGED OR DO YOU NOT KNOW FALSEHOOD FROM TRUTH, HOW DO YOU RALATE ... "GIve his only begotten son the the verse?
One of 10 such verses. Covered on their own thread. Reply there not here.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=56.0
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 24, 2010, 09:51:20 AMSO LET ME UNDERSTAND THIS CORRECTLY GOD (LORD OF THE UNIVERSE CREATOR OF LIFE< GAVE A SON HIS ONLY? (DOES THE BIBLE NOT SPEAK OF SONS OF GOD?
And one unique Son of God conceived by a virgin by the express will of God. Yet you blaspheme The Messiah, the only person ever born of a virgin by the will of God, by declaring Him just another son of God. Subject covered on it's own thread. Reply there after reading the OP not here.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=611.0
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 24, 2010, 09:51:20 AM
< TO BE KILLED BY ROMAN SOLDIERS WHILE HE GOD LOOK ON? THE CONTRLLER AND FASHIONER OF THE UNIVERSE HAS NO POWER TO SHO US BUT BUT THROUGH AN ACT OF GROSS VIOLENCE AGAINST HIS OWN FAMILY?
If you repent maybe some day you can ask him the why's.
If you don't repent you will be separated from Him forever.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 24, 2010, 09:51:20 AMWHAT DOES BETTON MEAN< FATHERED?
Conceived by a virgin by the express will of YHWH the Father. Reply there after reading the OP not here.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=610.0
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 24, 2010, 09:51:20 AMBUT YOU SAY JESUS IS THE FATHER? SO JESUS FATHERED HIMSELF, SO HOW IS HE HIS OWN SON?????
Because that is how this mystery is progressively revealed through the Gospel. Reply there after reading the OP not here.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1175.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=40.0
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 24, 2010, 09:51:20 AM
I USE UPPER CASE SO AS NOT TO FALL INTO YOUR MISGUIDED TRAP OF MAKING THINGS UPPER CASE TO MISLEAD OTHERS>
Upper or lower case the verses, and their contexts, make the relationship clear. Reply there after reading the OP not here.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=610.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=611.0
Quote from: Mujaheed on October 24, 2010, 09:51:20 AM
In Jesus words from the gospel of Matthew 26:28 (http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_matthew.htm#matthew_28) For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Remission of sin through the blood of Jesus Christ that you reject, because the false Mohammed taught you that remission of sin is achieved by running back and forth between Safa and Marwah the way the pagan Arabian jinn-demon worshipers did.
Hbr 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy,
who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iAkcQhQNsaE#t=573s