Islam, Muslim / Christian Forum - Welcome All
General Category => History, Archaeology, and Geography of Mecca & Islamic Faith => Topic started by: Peter on February 14, 2009, 09:41:38 AM
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Sorry this is so direct, but after years of Mohammed's followers posting blasphemy, citing support for that blasphemy from 7th and 8th century southwest Arabian desert created fiction, as if to suggest that it could possibly have any standing whatsoever against the 1600 year record that God gave us through all of the prophets and witnesses as revealed through His record, that His people have followed through 2 covenants for 3500 years, for those sorely deceived folks this thread is intended to serve as a slap upside the head and shake by the lapels.
Please don't just lash out, or post unsubstantiated fiction, as those examples below, but rather please bring a thoughtful point by point argument, that demonstrates that the content of this post is wrong. In other words, please bring us evidence to support your view.
Posts from other sections containing 7th and 8th century created Mohammedan fiction as an argument directly against scripture, posted by folks that refuse to, or fail to, support or explain the foundation of their sources, historically, archaeologically or geographically, may be moved to this thread.
This fiction is posted by folks that have duped themselves into actually believing that men could sit down in the 7th and 8th centuries AD, and write a prior 2600 year history of Islam, without any reference whatsoever to any actual historical or archaeological record that preceded the 4th century AD.
Folks so desperate to believe pure fictional tripe, that when presented with this sad matter of fact regarding Mohammed's religion, are left without defense, and even lash out in argumentum ad ignorantiam, or "argument from ignorance", in a last ditch effort.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
Putting forward the preposterous suggestion, that just because there is no historical or archaeological record of Mecca ever having existed prior to the 4th century AD, doesn't mean it didn't exist!
This even as they have been indoctrinated to believe, that Mecca has been the historical and geographical epicenter of Mohammed's religion, SINCE ADAM! This even as other, tiny and briefly inhabited ancient Arabian settlements from before the Christian era, are very well attested in the actual historical and archaeological records of Arabia.
What they in fact prove by resorting to argumentum ad ignorantiam is that they are incapable of linear thought. They cannot connect dots and draw the obvious conclusions.
Because of this inability it doesn't seem to occur to them that the very Arabians that preceded Mohammed, that they themselves would characterize as ignorant, could not, and indeed did not record, let alone the even more daunting task of having preserved, a historical record of Mecca maintained throughout the span of 2900 years that their 7th and 8th century created historical fiction is intended to masquerade as.
Folks incapable of connecting the dots, which illustrate that since there is no history of Mecca prior to the 4th century AD, all of the created historical fiction of the 7th and 8th century regarding Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael, having had anything to do with Mecca, is necessarily nothing more than fantasy.
This is even further confirmed by the archaeological and historical evidence, regarding just where Abraham did travel, compounding the evidence against the Mohammedans historical creation.
Continuing to compound the above is the fact that the actual historical record suggests that the first caravan route along the Red Sea connecting northern and southern Arabia, did not exist until about 900 years after Abraham, which makes it about 1000 years before Mecca ever existed. The geographical location of where Mecca was eventually built, is a whopping 1000 kilometers from anywhere that anyone has placed any of Abraham's travels. So in simple terms of geography the created Mohammedan fiction is not possible. Whereas the historical record in Scripture is not only perfectly plausible but is confirmed by the archaeological record.
So then moving to the next dot it becomes evident that the Kaaba could not have existed before the 4th century, since Mecca didn't exist, which would be consistent with the actual historical evidence that suggests that the Kaaba didn't appear in historical records until about the early 5th century AD, when pagan immigrants from Yemen built it for Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-demon worship.
Then the next dot to connect is the black stone. No Muslim can honestly deny that the black stone was one of 360 idols kept in the Quraish's kaaba. Indeed Mohammed's own uncle tended the Kaaba.
The next dot to connect is that the Quraish black stone idol, that Muslims from all over the world still bow toward 5 times a day, and travel to and circumambulate as the Arabian pagans did, did not appear in Mecca until brought there by those Yemeni immigrants. Since Mecca has no pre-4th century AD history, no other conclusion can be drawn regarding the kaaba and the black stone.
This unarguable truth is made even more obvious when comparing the absolute absence of record of Mecca, with the historical, archaeological and geographical confirmation of Jerusalem. In Israel - in THE Holy Land. With over a million artifacts just on display.
Folks so broken that they actually believe the Mohammedan contrived 7th and 8th century fictional history, and thinly repackaged pagan rituals that that Mohammed adopted and then adapted to his religion. As if Mohammed's stand-alone 23 year 7th century record, could somehow stand as a replacement for the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind, through all of His prophets and witnesses, that His people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years. A historical record whose dependability is evermore confirmed through archaeology, and whose geographical location is, of course, centered around THE Holy Land. Fully 1200 kilometers from where the pagans built their Kaaba in Mecca in the early 5th century AD.
Yet in spite of the above facts, Muslims go on and on posting this fictional history penned by a bunch of ignorant 7th century southwestern Arabian desert dwellers, as though it had any standing whatsoever, when all it has ever had going for it is illiterate and ignorant people that have been forced to believe it. First by the sword and then by the consequences brought to bear against Islamic "apostates".
Folks whose historical fiction teaches that Mohammed's alter ego "Allah" created the world, and that the Kaaba was built by Adam in the center of that world, and just below the gates of heaven. Yet somehow "Allah" planned things so poorly that when he created the location that his sacred (pagan) Kaaba was to be built on, it just happened to be on a flood plain, and thereby periodically inundated with floodwater contaminated with sewage.
It should be painfully obvious, as to just who was responsible for the Kaaba.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1376/1401247982_3db4faa70e.jpg)
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After watching a few of the videos below it would be instructive to go to YouTube and watch videos by converts to Islam (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=converted+to+islam&aq=0s).
converts islam (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=converts+islam&aq=2)
You will notice is that, almost universally, the converts of Islam believe they found God with their heads. Like they calculated, or otherwise figured out how to follow God, or follow God through their own human "logic". A quick way to understand that this is failed logic is to take a quick review of the "History of Islam (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0)" section of this forum as it's obvious they haven't been shown the whole picture, since there is absoutely nothing logical about following Mohammed.
Indeed, to employ "logic" or "reason" as a path to Islam, one must first divorce oneself from scripture (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0), history (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1138.0), archaeology (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1132.0) and geography (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1277.0), reducing one's mind to that of a 7th century illiterate, in order to do so.
You will notice those Muslim testimonies run in stark contrast to those below by men and women who found God through a personal relationship with Him. Many through dreams, visions or by being spoken to directly by Jesus Christ.
WHAT A HYPOCRITE YOU ARE< Human logic stems from his heart, what his heart believes is what the mind conceives and believes.DID YOU NOT ASK IN SEVERAL POSTS IF YOU MUST ABANDON LOGIC AND EVIDENCE TO FOLLOW MUHAMMAD"S RELIGION, and here you stating that all the converts accepted Islam by "employing logic" BIT OF A CONUNDRUM?
BEWARE THE HISTORY OF ISLAM SECTION IS ANYTHING BUT HISTORY BUT FILLED WITH UNFOUNDED CONCLUSIONS< CONJECTURE LIES ABOUT MOON_GODS AND QUOTATIONS OF PRE_ISLAMIC (JAHILIYYAH) DAYS AND VERY LITTLE ISLAMIC QUOTATIONS.
SO THE LOGIC OF ARCHEOLOGY (SUMERIANS TELLING US ABOUT THE AKKADIANS (SOME SAY ALIENS) WILL TEACH US ABOUT RELIGION, THE PYRAMIDS WILL TELL US ABOUT The GODS OSIRIS AND RAH AND ISIS HIS MOTHER AND SETH?
THE MAYANS WITH FLYING OBJECTS AND MEGALITHS Confirms the akkadians that tell US WE CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF ALIENS THAT COME FROM PLANETS X THAT ORBITS THE EARTH EVERY 3600 years and the evidence confirms the stories in the VEDAS of flying Gods waging war in the sky?
DID YOU KNOW THAT THE SUMERIANS HAVE SEVEN TABLETS OF CREATION, ONLY ONE HAS BEEN FULLY TRANSLATED?
Pieces of pottery and stone tells us about the belief, most of them tells us of destruction and anarchy that ensued, and war and invasions and oppressions and tyrant rulers does it not?
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After watching a few of the videos below it would be instructive to go to YouTube and watch videos by converts to Islam (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=converted+to+islam&aq=0s).
converts islam (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=converts+islam&aq=2)
You will notice is that, almost universally, the converts of Islam believe they found God with their heads. Like they calculated, or otherwise figured out how to follow God, or follow God through their own human "logic". A quick way to understand that this is failed logic is to take a quick review of the "History of Islam (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0)" section of this forum as it's obvious they haven't been shown the whole picture, since there is absoutely nothing logical about following Mohammed.
Indeed, to employ "logic" or "reason" as a path to Islam, one must first divorce oneself from scripture (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0), history (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1138.0), archaeology (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1132.0) and geography (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1277.0), reducing one's mind to that of a 7th century illiterate, in order to do so.
You will notice those Muslim testimonies run in stark contrast to those below by men and women who found God through a personal relationship with Him. Many through dreams, visions or by being spoken to directly by Jesus Christ.
WHAT A HYPOCRITE YOU ARE< Human logic stems from his heart, what his heart believes is what the mind conceives and believes.DID YOU NOT ASK IN SEVERAL POSTS IF YOU MUST ABANDON LOGIC AND EVIDENCE TO FOLLOW MUHAMMAD"S RELIGION, ........
The point I made, that you misstate is contained in the 3rd section of what you quoted.
........ and here you stating that all the converts accepted Islam by "employing logic" BIT OF A CONUNDRUM?
BEWARE THE HISTORY OF ISLAM SECTION IS ANYTHING BUT HISTORY BUT FILLED WITH UNFOUNDED CONCLUSIONS< CONJECTURE LIES ABOUT MOON_GODS AND QUOTATIONS OF PRE_ISLAMIC (JAHILIYYAH) DAYS AND VERY LITTLE ISLAMIC QUOTATIONS.
Simply saying something doesn't make it so. There would be no point in quoting from the fictional history you believe, that was created in the 7th and 8th centuries. Unless and until you provide us with historical or archaeological evidence of a pre-4th century Mecca, like the one that is available for lots of other ancient Arabian towns, you have no standing to peddle Mohammedan fiction, in light of the historical and archaeological evidence that does in fact exist.
SO THE LOGIC OF ARCHEOLOGY (SUMERIANS TELLING US ABOUT THE AKKADIANS (SOME SAY ALIENS) WILL TEACH US ABOUT RELIGION, THE PYRAMIDS WILL TELL US ABOUT The GODS OSIRIS AND RAH AND ISIS HIS MOTHER AND SETH?
THE MAYANS WITH FLYING OBJECTS AND MEGALITHS Confirms the akkadians that tell US WE CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF ALIENS THAT COME FROM PLANETS X THAT ORBITS THE EARTH EVERY 3600 years and the evidence confirms the stories in the VEDAS of flying Gods waging war in the sky?
DID YOU KNOW THAT THE SUMERIANS HAVE SEVEN TABLETS OF CREATION, ONLY ONE HAS BEEN FULLY TRANSLATED?
Pieces of pottery and stone tells us about the belief, most of them tells us of destruction and anarchy that ensued, and war and invasions and oppressions and tyrant rulers does it not?
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After watching a few of the videos below it would be instructive to go to YouTube and watch videos by converts to Islam (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=converted+to+islam&aq=0s).
converts islam (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=converts+islam&aq=2)
You will notice is that, almost universally, the converts of Islam believe they found God with their heads. Like they calculated, or otherwise figured out how to follow God, or follow God through their own human "logic". A quick way to understand that this is failed logic is to take a quick review of the "History of Islam (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0)" section of this forum as it's obvious they haven't been shown the whole picture, since there is absoutely nothing logical about following Mohammed.
Indeed, to employ "logic" or "reason" as a path to Islam, one must first divorce oneself from scripture (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0), history (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1138.0), archaeology (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1132.0) and geography (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1277.0), reducing one's mind to that of a 7th century illiterate, in order to do so.
You will notice those Muslim testimonies run in stark contrast to those below by men and women who found God through a personal relationship with Him. Many through dreams, visions or by being spoken to directly by Jesus Christ.
WHAT A HYPOCRITE YOU ARE< Human logic stems from his heart, what his heart believes is what the mind conceives and believes.DID YOU NOT ASK IN SEVERAL POSTS IF YOU MUST ABANDON LOGIC AND EVIDENCE TO FOLLOW MUHAMMAD"S RELIGION, ........
The point I made, that you misstate is contained in the 3rd section of what you quoted.
........ and here you stating that all the converts accepted Islam by "employing logic" BIT OF A CONUNDRUM?
BEWARE THE HISTORY OF ISLAM SECTION IS ANYTHING BUT HISTORY BUT FILLED WITH UNFOUNDED CONCLUSIONS< CONJECTURE LIES ABOUT MOON_GODS AND QUOTATIONS OF PRE_ISLAMIC (JAHILIYYAH) DAYS AND VERY LITTLE ISLAMIC QUOTATIONS.
Simply saying something doesn't make it so. There would be no point in quoting from the fictional history you believe, that was created in the 7th and 8th centuries. Unless and until you provide us with historical or archaeological evidence of a pre-4th century Mecca, like the one that is available for lots of other ancient Arabian towns, you have no standing to peddle Mohammedan fiction, in light of the historical and archaeological evidence that does in fact exist.
SO THE LOGIC OF ARCHEOLOGY (SUMERIANS TELLING US ABOUT THE AKKADIANS (SOME SAY ALIENS) WILL TEACH US ABOUT RELIGION, THE PYRAMIDS WILL TELL US ABOUT The GODS OSIRIS AND RAH AND ISIS HIS MOTHER AND SETH?
THE MAYANS WITH FLYING OBJECTS AND MEGALITHS Confirms the akkadians that tell US WE CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF ALIENS THAT COME FROM PLANETS X THAT ORBITS THE EARTH EVERY 3600 years and the evidence confirms the stories in the VEDAS of flying Gods waging war in the sky?
DID YOU KNOW THAT THE SUMERIANS HAVE SEVEN TABLETS OF CREATION, ONLY ONE HAS BEEN FULLY TRANSLATED?
Pieces of pottery and stone tells us about the belief, most of them tells us of destruction and anarchy that ensued, and war and invasions and oppressions and tyrant rulers does it not?
1. Jesus Has No History
1.1. No Primary Source (First-Person) Accounts of Jesus Exist
No historians of the time mention Jesus. Suetonius (65-135) does not. Pliny the Younger only mentions Christians (Paulists) with no comment of Jesus himself. Tacitus mentions a Jesus, but it is likely that after a century of Christian preaching Tacitus was just reacting to these rumours, or probably talking about one of the many other Messiah's of the time. Josephus, a methodical, accurate and dedicated historian of the time mentions John the Baptist, Herod, Pilate and many aspects of Jewish life but does not mention Jesus. (The Testimonium Flavianum has been shown to be a third century Christian fraud). He once mentions a Jesus, but gives no information other than that he is a brother of a James. Jesus was not an unusual name, either. Justus, another Jewish historian who lived in Tiberias (near Kapernaum, a place Jesus frequented) did not mention Jesus nor any of his miracles. It is only in the evidence of later writers, writing about earlier times, that we find a Jesus. What is more surprising (Jesus could simply have been unknown to local historians) is that academics note that the gospels themselves do not allude to first-hand historical sources, either!
“The four Gospels that eventually made it into the New Testament, for example, are all anonymous, written in the third person about Jesus and his companions. None of them contains a first-person narrative ("One day, when Jesus and I went into Capernaum..."), or claims to be written by an eyewitness or companion of an eyewitness. Why then do we call them Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? Because sometime in the second century, when proto-orthodox Christians recognized the need for apostolic authorities, they attributed these books to apostles (Matthew and John) and close companions of apostles (Mark, the secretary of Peter; and Luke, the travelling companion of Paul). Most scholars today have abandoned these identifications, and recognize that the books were written by otherwise unknown but relatively well-educated Greek-speaking (and writing) Christians during the second half of the first century.â€
"Lost Christianities" by Bart Ehrman (2003)1
Take the Gospel of John for example:
“The name John was common [...]. Even though the Gospel and Epistles of John do not claim to be written by someone of that name, the book of Revelations does (see Rev. 1:9). But the author does not claim to be John the son of Zebedee, one of Jesus' apostles. In fact, in one scene "John" has a vision of the throne of God surrounded by twenty-four elders who worship him forever (Rev. 4:4, 9-10). These twenty-four elders are usually taken to refer to the twelve patriarchs of Israel and the twelve apostles. But the author gives no indication that he is seeing himself. Probably, then, this was not the apostle. And so, the book is anonymous, later accepted by Christians as canonical because they believed the author was, in fact, Jesus' earthly disciple.â€
"Lost Christianities" by Bart Ehrman (2003)1
1.2. There is No Evidence for the Story of the Birth of Jesus
“Mostly derived from pagan myths, Jesus' birth stories are very dubious, and it very likely that all such beliefs were written retrospectively by the Roman gospel writers, or were assumed from the outset. There is no evidence or reason to believe that they actually occurred. Events such as King Herod's killing of every male child simply could not have gone unnoticed, these pagan myths were however assumed of all god-man saviours. Modern Christmas is a combination of pagan and ancient practices. Its eclectic nature makes it a multicultural event suitable for appropriation by nearly anyone, including staunch secularists. Jesus' existence remains a mystery, we cannot validate even the simplest facts about his birth, and this fact has led some scholars to cast doubt on Jesus' entire existence.â€
"The Birth of Jesus and the Christmas Story from the Bible Are Pagan and Unhistorical" by Vexen Crabtree (2000)
1.3. There is No Evidence for the Story of the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus
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The crucifixion story of Jesus Christ is mythical, based on pagan religions, and makes no sense:
There is a complete absence of evidence for the events described - no authors mention the phenomenal events that supposedly occurred at the time of Jesus' resurrection, and, there are no records of Jesus being crucified in the first place. This is despite there being multiple historians of the time who kept extensive records of events in that era, especially of unusual events and the misdeeds of rulers. The only records we have are those written by Christians themselves, the Gospels. And within each of those gospels nearly all details of the crucifixion and resurrection are different. Very important details, such as Jesus' last words, are so different that it appears they are simply being made up by the authors. The earliest Christians did not know simple details such as where Jesus was buried.
Most the details of Jesus' death and rebirth are similar to the existing myths surrounding god-men in that era. The similarities to the Christs of other pagan religions are shockingly detailed, so much so that early Church fathers had to defend themselves against pagan critics who said that the stories of Jesus were simply pagan stories with new names.
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Non-responsive post, turned to agnostic blasphemy that Jesus didn't exist, instead of replying to posts.
His claims of
BEWARE THE HISTORY OF ISLAM SECTION IS ANYTHING BUT HISTORY BUT FILLED WITH UNFOUNDED CONCLUSIONS< CONJECTURE LIES ABOUT MOON_GODS AND QUOTATIONS OF PRE_ISLAMIC (JAHILIYYAH) DAYS AND VERY LITTLE ISLAMIC QUOTATIONS.
Again in the following link and perhaps the most common Muslim delusion, that believes that just because he is willing to say something, makes it true. And particularly that just because Mohammed said something makes it true, in spite of the mess Mohammed made of the Quran.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1906.75
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Unrelated discussion split off and continued here
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1938.0
MY APOLOGIES, my nafs (inner demon, desires, own vanity, pride) overpowers my heart and logic occasionally, I err and I should have posted the following instead of being confrontational. I grew up in a society where evryoe lived more like family than neighbors (MUSLIM AND OTHER DENOMINATIONS, muslims were outnumbered.)
I HAVE TO (ACCORDING THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD) FULLY AGREE WITH YOU.
Imam Ahmad recorded from Ubayy bin Ka`b that the idolators said to the Prophet , "O Muhammad! Tell us the lineage of your Lord.'' So Allah revealed
ï´¿Ù‚Ùلْ Ù‡ÙÙˆÙŽ اللَّه٠أَØَدٌ - اللَّه٠الصَّمَد٠-
لَمْ ÙŠÙŽÙ„Ùدْ وَلَمْ ÙŠÙولَدْ - وَلَمْ ÙŠÙŽÙƒÙنْ لَّه٠كÙÙÙواً Ø£ÙŽØَدٌ ï´¾
(1. Say: "He is Allah") (2. "One".) (3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten".) (4. "And there is non comparable to Him.'') Similar was recorded by At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Jarir and they added in their narration that he said,
﴿الصَّمَدÙï´¾
(As-Samad) is One Who does not give birth, nor was He born, because there is nothing that is born except that it will die, and there is nothing that dies except that it leaves behind inheritance, and indeed Allah does not die and He does not leave behind any inheritance.
﴿وَلَمْ ÙŠÙŽÙƒÙنْ لَّه٠كÙÙÙواً Ø£ÙŽØَدٌ ï´¾
(And there is none comparable to Him.) This means that there is none similar to Him, none equal to Him and there is nothing at all like Him.'' Ibn Abi Hatim also recorded it and At-Tirmidhi mentioned it as a Mursal narration. Then At-Tirmidhi said, "And this is the most correct.''
Rights of Neighbors:
"And (be good) to the neighbor who is your relative and to the neighbor who is not a relative...."(Qur'an; 4:36)
Islam has great respect for the mutual rights and duties of neighbors. The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) has said "Gabriel always used to advise me to be generous with the neighbors, till I thought that Allah was going to include the neighbors among the heirs of a Muslim."
The rights of neighbors are not meant for Muslim neighbors only. Of course, a Muslim neighbor has one more claim upon us - that of Islamic brotherhood. As for the rights of neighbors are concerned, all are equal. Explaining it, the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) said "Neighbors are of three kinds;"
That one who has one right upon you; That one who has two rights upon you; That one who has three rights upon you.
The neighbor who has three rights upon you is the one who is also a Muslim and a relative. The neighbor who has two rights upon you is the one who is either a non-Muslim relative or a non-relative Muslim. The neighbor who has one right upon you is neither a Muslim nor a relative. Still he has got all the claims of neighborhood rights upon you.
The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) has said "The man is not from me who sleeps contentedly while his neighbors sleep hungry."
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Mujaheed, sugar coating blasphemy doesn't make it any less blasphemous. You will not be allowed to post Mohammedan blasphemy that springs from created 7th century Mohammedan fiction, as though it has standing to contradict the 1600 year record of the revelation of God to mankind, until you have made the historical and archaeological case, for Mecca ever having existed, before the Christian era. Your post has been moved here, as will every other post that contains contradictory Mohammedan blasphemy, against the Word of God.
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Mujaheed, sugar coating blasphemy doesn't make it any less blasphemous. You will not be allowed to post Mohammedan blasphemy that springs from created 7th century Mohammedan fiction, as though it has standing to contradict the 1600 year record of the revelation of God to mankind, until you have made the historical and archaeological case, for Mecca ever having existed, before the Christian era. Your post has been moved here, as will every other post that contains contradictory Mohammedan blasphemy, against the Word of God.
WHERE YOU MOVE THE POST DOES NOT MATTER TO THE TRUTH. THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD (MAY ALLAH BESTOW PEACE AND BLESSINGS UPON HIM AND HIS FAMILY)
You dont get it, do you, your conjecture and irrelavent argument of Makkah is of no consequence. I look at a man known as AL AMEEN (THE TRUTHFUL ONE AND I LOOK AT YOU AND RAFAT AMARI WITH nothing but opinions and conjecture, it is hardly a contest as who to believe, no one has given you the title of The truthful have they?
So keep you speculation and conjecture to yourself as you have not excavated Makkah nor have you read all the poetry in Arabic that stems from Jahiliya (ignorance) period nor have you even asked a single comment from a Meccan. So you came up with theory based on Pagan (roman) history of Arabia. VERY ACADEMIC AND SCIENTIFIC APPROACH. CLEARLY A COMPELLING CASE TO BE THROWN ON THE DUNG HEAP.
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Mujaheed, sugar coating blasphemy doesn't make it any less blasphemous. No more posting of Mohammedan blasphemy, that springs from created 7th century Mohammedan fiction, as though it has standing to contradict the 1600 year record of the revelation of God to mankind, until you have made the historical and archaeological case, for Mecca ever having existed, before the Christian era. Your post has been moved to that related thread, as will every other post that contains contradictory blasphemy, against the Word of God.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1912.0
I dont have to make case for any of my beliefs, it is written in BOOKS OF TRUTH, clear and self evident.
SHOULD YOU NOT CHANGE YOUR TITLE TO:
CLASSICAL (PAGAN OR EUROPEAN) WRITERS WITH References from AMERICAN SCHOLARS SHOW THAT MAKKAH DID NOT EXIST WITH NO ARAB POETS (PRE-ISLAM) AND EXCLUDING PERSIAN AND INDIAN WRITERS even consulted?
I read the fiction of RAFAT AMARI most of it is conjecture, opinions based on his assumptions.
MY POINT IS IT IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT WHAT YOU OR RAFAT AMARI SAYS AS WE ARE DISCUSSING WHAT ISLAM SAYS AND THE BIBLE SAYS NOT ARGUING ARCHEOLOGY (THAT YOU DONT HAVE) OR HISTORY (BIASED AND EURO-CENTRIC) WRITTEN AS IF THE ARABS HAS AN INFERIOR CIVILIZATION AND CULTURE TO THE IGNORANT PAGAN EUROPEANS AND AMERICANS.
THIS LINE OF ARGUMENT IS A WASTE OF EVERYONES IME AND NOT WORTH COMMENTING ON, NOT BECAUSE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE BUT NO_ONE CARES ABOUT OPINIONS AND CONJECTURE AS WILL CHANGE OVER TIME>
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Mujaheed, sugar coating blasphemy doesn't make it any less blasphemous. No more posting of Mohammedan blasphemy, that springs from created 7th century Mohammedan fiction, as though it has standing to contradict the 1600 year record of the revelation of God to mankind, until you have made the historical and archaeological case, for Mecca ever having existed, before the Christian era. Your post has been moved to that related thread, as will every other post that contains contradictory blasphemy, against the Word of God.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1912.0
I dont have to make case for any of my beliefs, it is written in BOOKS OF TRUTH, clear and self evident.
SHOULD YOU NOT CHANGE YOUR TITLE TO:
CLASSICAL (PAGAN OR EUROPEAN) WRITERS WITH References from AMERICAN SCHOLARS SHOW THAT MAKKAH DID NOT EXIST WITH NO ARAB POETS (PRE-ISLAM) AND EXCLUDING PERSIAN AND INDIAN WRITERS even consulted?
I read the fiction of RAFAT AMARI most of it is conjecture, opinions based on his assumptions.
MY POINT IS IT IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT WHAT YOU OR RAFAT AMARI SAYS AS WE ARE DISCUSSING WHAT ISLAM SAYS ........
That's right. The created fiction of 7th and 8th century AD ignorant, semi-literate, southwest Arabian desert dwellers convinced their ignorant followers to believe, to facilitate their theft of the property of others and rape and sexual enslavement of their wives, mothers and daughters.
Lying about scholars like Amari will not suddenly provide a 2900 year pre-4th century history of Mecca.
Let's start with this Wikipedia article. "Ancient Towns in Saudi Arabia"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Towns_in_Saudi_Arabia
Can you tell me what you observe about that list of ancient towns in regard to Mecca?
You are done posting slanderous and non-responsive posts. You are required to answer this question directly.
.......... AND THE BIBLE SAYS NOT ARGUING ARCHEOLOGY (THAT YOU DONT HAVE) OR HISTORY (BIASED AND EURO-CENTRIC) WRITTEN AS IF THE ARABS HAS AN INFERIOR CIVILIZATION AND CULTURE TO THE IGNORANT PAGAN EUROPEANS AND AMERICANS.
THIS LINE OF ARGUMENT IS A WASTE OF EVERYONES IME AND NOT WORTH COMMENTING ON, NOT BECAUSE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE BUT NO_ONE CARES ABOUT OPINIONS AND CONJECTURE AS WILL CHANGE OVER TIME>
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Mujaheed, sugar coating blasphemy doesn't make it any less blasphemous. No more posting of Mohammedan blasphemy, that springs from created 7th century Mohammedan fiction, as though it has standing to contradict the 1600 year record of the revelation of God to mankind, until you have made the historical and archaeological case, for Mecca ever having existed, before the Christian era. Your post has been moved to that related thread, as will every other post that contains contradictory blasphemy, against the Word of God.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1912.0
I dont have to make case for any of my beliefs, it is written in BOOKS OF TRUTH, clear and self evident.
SHOULD YOU NOT CHANGE YOUR TITLE TO:
CLASSICAL (PAGAN OR EUROPEAN) WRITERS WITH References from AMERICAN SCHOLARS SHOW THAT MAKKAH DID NOT EXIST WITH NO ARAB POETS (PRE-ISLAM) AND EXCLUDING PERSIAN AND INDIAN WRITERS even consulted?
I read the fiction of RAFAT AMARI most of it is conjecture, opinions based on his assumptions.
MY POINT IS IT IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT WHAT YOU OR RAFAT AMARI SAYS AS WE ARE DISCUSSING WHAT ISLAM SAYS ........
That's right. The created fiction of 7th and 8th century AD ignorant, semi-literate, southwest Arabian desert dwellers convinced their ignorant followers to believe, to facilitate their theft of the property of others and rape and sexual enslavement of their wives, mothers and daughters.
Lying about scholars like Amari will not suddenly provide a 2900 year pre-4th century history of Mecca.
Let's start with this Wikipedia article. "Ancient Towns in Saudi Arabia"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Towns_in_Saudi_Arabia
Can you tell me what you observe about that list of ancient towns in regard to Mecca?
You are done posting slanderous and non-responsive posts. You are required to answer this question directly.
.......... AND THE BIBLE SAYS NOT ARGUING ARCHEOLOGY (THAT YOU DONT HAVE) OR HISTORY (BIASED AND EURO-CENTRIC) WRITTEN AS IF THE ARABS HAS AN INFERIOR CIVILIZATION AND CULTURE TO THE IGNORANT PAGAN EUROPEANS AND AMERICANS.
THIS LINE OF ARGUMENT IS A WASTE OF EVERYONES IME AND NOT WORTH COMMENTING ON, NOT BECAUSE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE BUT NO_ONE CARES ABOUT OPINIONS AND CONJECTURE AS WILL CHANGE OVER TIME>
THE LIST IS SOMEONE'S Opinion, is it fact from some record of the area by a verified scholar handed down from one generation to the next?
It is not even verified by todays scholars, unassessed and none of the facts are checked (SAUDI PROJECT notwithstanding)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ancient_Towns_in_Saudi_Arabia
Saudi Arabia portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Saudi Arabia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Saudi Arabia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale.
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IT HAS SOMETHING IN COMMON WITH RAFAT AMARI"S COMMENTS DONT YOU THINK?
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IT HAS SOMETHING IN COMMON WITH RAFAT AMARI"S COMMENTS DONT YOU THINK?
I'm sorry, but if you look at the footnotes you will not find Dr. Amari cited - it has nothing to do with Amari.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Towns_in_Saudi_Arabia
Now answer the question. If you obfuscate again I will give you a 2 day chilling out period.
You can see other ancient towns in Arabia widely recognized - even as U.N. as world heritage sites. Towns like Mada'in Saleh, that enjoy rich archaeological and historical records.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mada%27in_Saleh
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Thamudi.jpg/250px-Thamudi.jpg)
Since you believe the 7th and 8th century AD created Mohammedan fiction, that Mecca has been around since Adam, why do you suppose it is that Mecca is absent from the list of ancient Arabian towns?
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IT HAS SOMETHING IN COMMON WITH RAFAT AMARI"S COMMENTS DONT YOU THINK?
I'm sorry, but if you look at the footnotes you will not find Dr. Amari cited - it has nothing to do with Amari.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Towns_in_Saudi_Arabia
Now answer the question. If you obfuscate again I will give you a 2 day chilling out period.
You can see other ancient towns in Arabia widely recognized - even as U.N. as world heritage sites. Towns like Mada'in Saleh, that enjoy rich archaeological and historical records.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mada%27in_Saleh
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Thamudi.jpg/250px-Thamudi.jpg)
Since you believe the 7th and 8th century AD created Mohammedan fiction, that Mecca has been around since Adam, why do you suppose it is that Mecca is absent from the list of ancient Arabian towns?
MAKKAH is not an ordinary Town, neither is Madina (Prophet Muhammad's City) and neither is Jerusalem (CITY of the Prophets)
What makes you (arrogantly) think that Muslims has to justify anything by you? The message of the QURAN is clear and unequivocal, worship the Creator of the Universe not the Creation. (YOUR LORD THE GOD IS ONE)
Ka'Ba has been Chosen, like Jerualem before (unfortunately the bad of the chosen ones made it fall), Madina is Honoured, where else does 8-10 million per annum travel to and 1,8 billion bow in the direction of? 1,8 billion people in our present time and counting, bowing down in the direction of the K'aba,
I have 1,8 billion that will testify on my truth, You have Rafat AMARI?
Worship in the manner The supreme GOD wants you to (NOT form your own opinion)
The evidence for THE GOD is in the worship and learning true knowledge, not the writings of unverified, unqualified self appointed scribes and scholars that are not even PIOUS or inclined to doing good.
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IT HAS SOMETHING IN COMMON WITH RAFAT AMARI"S COMMENTS DONT YOU THINK?
I'm sorry, but if you look at the footnotes you will not find Dr. Amari cited - it has nothing to do with Amari.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Towns_in_Saudi_Arabia
Now answer the question. If you obfuscate again I will give you a 2 day chilling out period.
You can see other ancient towns in Arabia widely recognized - even as U.N. as world heritage sites. Towns like Mada'in Saleh, that enjoy rich archaeological and historical records.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mada%27in_Saleh
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Thamudi.jpg/250px-Thamudi.jpg)
Since you believe the 7th and 8th century AD created Mohammedan fiction, that Mecca has been around since Adam, why do you suppose it is that Mecca is absent from the list of ancient Arabian towns?
MAKKAH is not an ordinary Town, neither is Madina (Prophet Muhammad's City)
Immaterial to answering the post question.
and neither is Jerusalem (CITY of the Prophets)
What makes you (arrogantly) think that Muslims has to justify anything by you?
Immaterial to answering the post question. Wikipedia article that doesn't recognize Mecca as an ancient city - isn't about me.
The message of the QURAN is clear and unequivocal, worship the Creator of the Universe not the Creation. (YOUR LORD THE GOD IS ONE)
Ka'Ba has been Chosen, like Jerualem before
Immaterial to answering the post question. And sadly the Quran is purely the false prophet Mohammed's STAND-ALONE 7th century rantings, embellished by later southwestern Arabian desert dwellers. Nowhere else supported.
(unfortunately the bad of the chosen ones made it fall), Madina is Honoured, .......
Immaterial to answering the post question. Honored by Mohammed's brainwashed antichrist followers that follow his 7th century rantings....... where else does 8-10 million per annum travel to .......
Immaterial to answering the post question. Three million travel to THE Holy Land every year. But volume is irrelevant.
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for WIDE [IS] THE GATE, AND BROAD [IS THE WAY, THAT LEADETH TO DESTRUCTION, and many there be which go in thereat:
....... and 1,8 billion bow in the direction of?
Pointing out mass delusion is immaterial to answering the post question.
Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
1,8 billion people in our present time and counting, bowing down in the direction of the K'aba,
Immaterial to answering the post question. Regarding Mohammedans bowing to the Quraish's black stone idol and your citing it as other than an indictment of Mohammedans.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1906.0
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1952.0
Just as the Quraish pagan Arabians before you, all bowing to, and circumambulating the same pagan black stone idol.
I have 1,8 billion that will testify on my truth,
Immaterial to answering the post question. You have 1.8 billion filled with the spirit of antichrist, that follow the father of lies as a result, that are even brainwashed into performing repackaged southwestern Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-demon worship rituals. You have Rafat AMARI?
Immaterial to answering the post question. Wikipedia article doesn't mention Mecca in it's list of ancient Arabian cities - it isn't about Dr. Amari.
This is why I also warned you about focusing on individuals in your transparent efforts to dodge the issues they raise.Worship in the manner The supreme GOD wants you to (NOT form your own opinion)
Immaterial to answering the post question. You worship in the rituals that the pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-demon worshipers did. Worship in the rituals that Mohammed's phony prisoner raping and slave prostituting alter ego "Allah" (satan) wants you to. In the rituals of pagan Arabia.
Specifically how satan programmed you in specifically what to DISbelieve. Thus denying the blood that would save you. The WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, to follow Satan. Even believing that running back and forth between Safa and Marwah the way the Arabian jinn-demon worshipers did, provides remission of sin instead.The evidence for THE GOD is in the worship and learning true knowledge, .....
Immaterial to answering the post question. The only "evidence" you have WAS ALL CREATED IN THE 7TH AND 8TH CENTURY.
You reject the record God gave us for the fiction entirely created in the 7th and 8th century because of one murdering, child doing, prisoner raping, thief.
....... not the writings of unverified, unqualified self appointed scribes and scholars that are not even PIOUS or inclined to doing good.
Immaterial to answering the post question. You were warned. 2 day ban to give you time to formulate a proper response to the question in the post. That question was http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1912.msg8386#msg8386
"Since you believe the 7th and 8th century AD created Mohammedan fiction, that Mecca has been around since Adam, why do you suppose it is that Mecca is absent from the list of ancient Arabian towns?"
When you return you will first address your accusation against resistingrexmundi. No beating around the bush or another 2 day ban.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1911.msg8394#msg8394
Then the question in the post on this thread that you ignored. A direct and succinct answer to that question or another 2 day ban.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1912.msg8386#msg8386
Then the thread regarding Daniel's kingdom "beasts" that you ran from in post after post. Any more obfuscation and another 2 day ban.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1938.msg8396#msg8396
When you return you will reply to A SINGLE THREAD AT A TIME , in linear conversation, until you have sufficiently demonstrated your willingness engage in an exchange, per forum rules.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=35.0
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I have 1,8 billion that will testify on my truth, You have Rafat AMARI?
I have just got to ask. Since when do numbers=truth. People all over the world used to believe the sun revolved around the earth. Even Muhammad thought along these lines believing it to settle in a pool at night. But that didn't make it true. It is this same logic that allows rapists in Islamic countries to get of scot-free because the victim cannot produce 4 witnesses to attest to her claim. As if rape is done in public view. Numbers do not imply truth. But if you want to go down that path there are approximately 2 billion self-proclaimed Christians in the world so that makes Christianity true by your logic. See what happens when you ignore facts and bend strictly to your passions?
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I have 1,8 billion that will testify on my truth, You have Rafat AMARI?
I have just got to ask. Since when do numbers=truth.
The exact reverse has always been the case, as has already been shown to him repeatedly.
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for WIDE [IS] THE GATE, AND BROAD [IS THE WAY, THAT LEADETH TO DESTRUCTION, and many there be which go in thereat:
Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
And he even admits to following Mohammed's 7th century "law", http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1955.0 through which he advocates murder, prisoner rape, and theft.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1934.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1930.0
We can address his posts more on his return from his 2 day ban. He should have gotten the idea by then that he will not be able to dodge questions and obfuscate any more.
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You have a 2 day ban on posting Mujaheed per instructions in the following link
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1912.msg8429#msg8429
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IT HAS SOMETHING IN COMMON WITH RAFAT AMARI"S COMMENTS DONT YOU THINK?
I'm sorry, but if you look at the footnotes you will not find Dr. Amari cited - it has nothing to do with Amari.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Towns_in_Saudi_Arabia
Now answer the question. If you obfuscate again I will give you a 2 day chilling out period.
You can see other ancient towns in Arabia widely recognized - even as U.N. as world heritage sites. Towns like Mada'in Saleh, that enjoy rich archaeological and historical records.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mada%27in_Saleh
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Thamudi.jpg/250px-Thamudi.jpg)
Since you believe the 7th and 8th century AD created Mohammedan fiction, that Mecca has been around since Adam, why do you suppose it is that Mecca is absent from the list of ancient Arabian towns?
MAKKAH IS THE HOLIEST CITY ON THE PLANET. Madina is Holy as is jerusalem (CITIS OF THE PROPHETS)
NO SCHOLAR BEFORE YOU EVER DISPUTED THE STORIES OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD
YOU DO NOT HAVE PROOF OF MAKKAH FROM MAKKAH
I DID NOT DRAW UP THE LIST AND I WOULD NOT LIKE TO SPECULATE (ASK THE PERSON THAT DREW UP THE LIST) IT IS ABSURD TO EXPECT ME TO ANSWER ON BEHALF OF SOMEONE ELSE (CONJECTURE IS NOT MY STYLE)
Google golden mean ratio of the earth
The only place on earth that generates positive energy
The conquest of Makkah was the most peaceful conquest in the history of Conquests
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IT HAS SOMETHING IN COMMON WITH RAFAT AMARI"S COMMENTS DONT YOU THINK?
I'm sorry, but if you look at the footnotes you will not find Dr. Amari cited - it has nothing to do with Amari.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Towns_in_Saudi_Arabia
Now answer the question. If you obfuscate again I will give you a 2 day chilling out period.
You can see other ancient towns in Arabia widely recognized - even as U.N. as world heritage sites. Towns like Mada'in Saleh, that enjoy rich archaeological and historical records.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mada%27in_Saleh
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Thamudi.jpg/250px-Thamudi.jpg)
Since you believe the 7th and 8th century AD created Mohammedan fiction, that Mecca has been around since Adam, why do you suppose it is that Mecca is absent from the list of ancient Arabian towns?
MAKKAH IS THE HOLIEST CITY ON THE PLANET.
THE "Holy Land" is unarguably the historical and geographical epicenter of YHWH's temple, prophets and witnesses.
Holy Land (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,25658,26637,26767,27404&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=holy+land&cp=6&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=0&aqi=g4g-o1&aql=&oq=holy+l&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=6e8733203d1b4e27)
Temple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem)
Mecca is the epicenter solely of Mohammedanism and it's lone "prophet" Mohammed. Your empty claim is made by those indoctrinated to follow Mohammed's 7th century religion. If you are claiming otherwise please support your claim.
Madina is Holy as is jerusalem (CITIS OF THE PROPHETS)
Simply saying something doesn't make it magically come true. What claim does Islam have on Jerusalem beside that which springs from Mohammed's unwitnessed story of his magic flying donkey-mule (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0), even as you blaspheme the record of the prophets to follow Mohammed's law (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1955.0).
Please support your contention regarding Medina.
JERUSALEM (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,25658,26637,26767,27404&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=artifacts+of+jerusalem&cp=9&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=artifacts+of+jerusalem&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=6e8733203d1b4e27)
The Holy City (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,25658,26637,26767,27404&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=jerusalem+holy+city&cp=13&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=0&aqi=g4g-o1&aql=&oq=jerusalem+hol&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=6e8733203d1b4e27)
NO SCHOLAR BEFORE YOU EVER DISPUTED THE STORIES OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD
You mean no ISLAMIC "scholar". That's because they are indoctrinated to believe 7th and 8th century created Mohammedan fiction, and in tern, indoctrinate others to it.
If you are speaking of other than Islamic "scholars", please support your claim.
It would be foolish to suggest other than that EVERY Christian scholar should dispute Mohammed because he rejected the shed blood of Jesus Christ. The whole subject of those that follow Jesus Christ. If a scholar that calls himself Christian advances Mohammedanism he is obviously not a Christian. Mohammed's holy land is Mecca and Muslims bow to and circumambulate the Quraish's black stone idol there. The RESULT of Mohammed's absurd "STORIES" (as you put it).
EVERY Jewish scholar should dispute Mohammed because he created his own law. Even causing his followers to bow toward and circumambulate the Quraish's black stone idol in Mecca as the pagans did. He even created his own "holy day" on Friday, instead of the Sabbath.
YOU DO NOT HAVE PROOF OF MAKKAH FROM MAKKAH
You mean that YOU "DO NOT HAVE PROOF OF MAKKAH FROM MAKKAH". Because it does not exist. You mean that no scholar before was EVER ABLE TO SUPPORT Mohammed and his boys 7th and 8th century created fiction. If it was supportable the internet would be full of such support. Just like it's full of Ahmed Deedat's lies.
I DID NOT DRAW UP THE LIST AND I WOULD NOT LIKE TO SPECULATE (ASK THE PERSON THAT DREW UP THE LIST) IT IS ABSURD TO EXPECT ME TO ANSWER ON BEHALF OF SOMEONE ELSE (CONJECTURE IS NOT MY STYLE)
Then why don't you search for another list? Why don't you make a list of your own? Why don't you bring us some archaeological and historical evidence that demonstrates that Mecca existed before the Christian era? Why would that be so difficult?
Google the archaeological and historical evidence of Jerusalem, for example. Why is there nothing for Mecca?
How about Wikipedia? Someone tried to put "tradition" in the "early history" section of the Mecca article, but I had to correct that.
The 7th and 8th century created Mohammedan fiction called "tradition" is not a substitute for, could never stand in for thousands of years of prior historical record.
Google golden mean ratio of the earth
Foolish Mohammedan nonsense. Even requires a Mercator projection - which is a distortion of the earth - then it requires selecting a starting point from many - and even then it misses Mecca.
http://www.goldennumber.net/earthphi.htm
You seek a sign because you do not know the Spirit of God.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
The only place on earth that generates positive energy
The conquest of Makkah was the most peaceful conquest in the history of Conquests
More irrelevant and unrelated poppycock.
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You were supposed to have limited yourself to this thread as part of the terms of your return, but you wandered off and got into trouble again.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1938.msg8521#msg8521
Please stick to this thread on your return. Why don't you take the 2 days amassing information that suggests that Mohammed's religion existed before Mohammed.
On your second return please begin by quoting and supporting each and every claim you made in the post above. I broke them down into individual subjects below.
Please respond in order. We'll discuss one topic at a time.
With 252 posts to your credit it's high time you learned how to quote before proceeding. For the posts below simply hit the blue word "Quote" and put all your text AFTER ALL the characters you see including after all [ ].
When you goof up a quote, all the quoting of your post, gets goofed up.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=39.0
If you goof up quoting, with your permission, I can edit your post and try to straighten out the mistake. I can do that for you in any of your prior posts as well with your permission.
After you are done supporting the claims you made in the post above, and we have discussed the support you offered for those claims, then we will start in on your earlier false claims and accusations, related to this forum section, and contained in this thread such as
"WHAT A HYPOCRITE YOU ARE< Human logic stems from his heart, what his heart believes is what the mind conceives and believes.DID YOU NOT ASK IN SEVERAL POSTS IF YOU MUST ABANDON LOGIC AND EVIDENCE TO FOLLOW MUHAMMAD"S RELIGION, and here you stating that all the converts accepted Islam by "employing logic" BIT OF A CONUNDRUM?
BEWARE THE HISTORY OF ISLAM SECTION IS ANYTHING BUT HISTORY BUT FILLED WITH UNFOUNDED CONCLUSIONS< CONJECTURE LIES ABOUT MOON_GODS AND QUOTATIONS OF PRE_ISLAMIC (JAHILIYYAH) DAYS AND VERY LITTLE ISLAMIC QUOTATIONS."
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1912.msg8157#msg8157
Please review forum decorum. Members are required to engage in exchange. Not simply make unsupported wild and false claims and accusations, and then move on to even more wild claims.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=35.0
DO NOT post in any another thread, before we have exhausted the many topics you raised that are contained in this thread, or it will be another instant, and lengthier time out. We will explore this thread in detail - each and every unaddressed claim you made.
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MAKKAH IS THE HOLIEST CITY ON THE PLANET.
THE "Holy Land" is unarguably the historical and geographical epicenter of YHWH's temple, prophets and witnesses.
Holy Land (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,25658,26637,26767,27404&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=holy+land&cp=6&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=0&aqi=g4g-o1&aql=&oq=holy+l&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=6e8733203d1b4e27)
Temple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem)
Mecca is the epicenter solely of Mohammedanism and it's lone "prophet" Mohammed. Your empty claim is made by those indoctrinated to follow Mohammed's 7th century religion. If you are claiming otherwise please support your claim.
If you try to obfuscate by posting a blizzard of multiple unrelated topics, or material unrelated to the question, it will go straight to spam. Support your claim directly and succinctly or you will deserve another time out.
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Madina is Holy as is jerusalem (CITIS OF THE PROPHETS)
Simply saying something doesn't make it magically come true. What claim does Islam have on Jerusalem beside that which springs from Mohammed's unwitnessed story of his magic flying donkey-mule (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0), even as you blaspheme the record of the prophets to follow Mohammed's law (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1955.msg8247#msg8247).
Please support your contention regarding Medina.
JERUSALEM (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,25658,26637,26767,27404&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=artifacts+of+jerusalem&cp=9&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=artifacts+of+jerusalem&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=6e8733203d1b4e27)
The Holy City (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,25658,26637,26767,27404&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=jerusalem+holy+city&cp=13&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=0&aqi=g4g-o1&aql=&oq=jerusalem+hol&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=6e8733203d1b4e27)
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NO SCHOLAR BEFORE YOU EVER DISPUTED THE STORIES OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD
You mean no ISLAMIC "scholar". That's because they are indoctrinated to believe 7th and 8th century created Mohammedan fiction, and in tern, indoctrinate others to it.
If you are speaking of other than Islamic "scholars", please support your claim.
It would be foolish to suggest other than that EVERY Christian scholar should dispute Mohammed because he rejected the shed blood of Jesus Christ. The whole subject of those that follow Jesus Christ. If a scholar that calls himself Christian advances Mohammedanism he is obviously not a Christian. Mohammed's holy land is Mecca and Muslims bow to and circumambulate the Quraish's black stone idol there. The RESULT of Mohammed's absurd "STORIES" (as you put it).
EVERY Jewish scholar should dispute Mohammed because he created his own law. Even causing his followers to bow toward and circumambulate the Quraish's black stone idol in Mecca as the pagans did. He even created his own "holy day" on Friday, instead of the Sabbath.
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YOU DO NOT HAVE PROOF OF MAKKAH FROM MAKKAH
You mean that YOU "DO NOT HAVE PROOF OF MAKKAH FROM MAKKAH". Because it does not exist. You mean that no scholar before was EVER ABLE TO SUPPORT Mohammed and his boys 7th and 8th century created fiction. If it was supportable the internet would be full of such support. Just like it's full of Ahmed Deedat's lies.
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I DID NOT DRAW UP THE LIST AND I WOULD NOT LIKE TO SPECULATE (ASK THE PERSON THAT DREW UP THE LIST) IT IS ABSURD TO EXPECT ME TO ANSWER ON BEHALF OF SOMEONE ELSE (CONJECTURE IS NOT MY STYLE)
Then why don't you search for another list? Why don't you make a list of your own? Why don't you bring us some archaeological and historical evidence that demonstrates that Mecca existed before the Christian era? Why would that be so difficult?
Google the archaeological and historical evidence of Jerusalem, for example. Why is there nothing for Mecca?
How about Wikipedia? Someone tried to put "tradition" in the "early history" section of the Mecca article, but I had to correct that.
The 7th and 8th century created Mohammedan fiction called "tradition" is not a substitute for, could never stand in for thousands of years of prior historical record.
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YOU DO NOT HAVE PROOF OF MAKKAH FROM MAKKAH
You mean that YOU "DO NOT HAVE PROOF OF MAKKAH FROM MAKKAH". Because it does not exist. You mean that no scholar before was EVER ABLE TO SUPPORT Mohammed and his boys 7th and 8th century created fiction. If it was supportable the internet would be full of such support. Just like it's full of Ahmed Deedat's lies.
This id futile argument created by you in an attempt to belittle the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad, this is not question ever raised in the time of the prophet nor objected to in the last 1000 years by any Christian Scholar. I believe that Nabi EESA is the messiah based on the Quran and the Hadith and not because of the unknown authors of the NT despite the complete lack of historical evidence. I believe what MuHammad (Messenger of ALLAH) is the source of PROPHETIC truth based on my belief that he is a Prophet sent by ALLAH (THE LORD OF ALL THE PROPHETS THAT CAME BEFORE) to correct the incorrect beliefs of mankind.
IN OTHER WORDS THE REQUEST FOR EVIDENCE IS DENIED, NOT BECAUSE IT DOES NOT EXIST BUT IT IS IRRELEVANT and ARGUMENT BASED ON CONJECTURE>
SEEKING EVIDENCE FOR THE LIGHT OF ALL SCRIPTURE IS ABSURD JUST AS SHOWING ME GOD IS. IT DEFIES THE VERY ESSENCE OF BELIEF>
IMAGINE TRYING TO FIND EVIDENCE FOR ALL THE SCRIPTURE!!!!, MADNESS IT S BASED ON BELIEF, not the twisted logic of unknown authors.
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YOU DO NOT HAVE PROOF OF MAKKAH FROM MAKKAH
You mean that YOU "DO NOT HAVE PROOF OF MAKKAH FROM MAKKAH". Because it does not exist. You mean that no scholar before was EVER ABLE TO SUPPORT Mohammed and his boys 7th and 8th century created fiction. If it was supportable the internet would be full of such support. Just like it's full of Ahmed Deedat's lies.
This id futile argument created by you in an attempt to belittle the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad, ......
Not at all. It's an attempt to show you that Mohammed is a false prophet - indeed THE false prophet - and his 7th century religion is a lie. The EXACT OPPOSITE of the Gospel.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2031.0
....... this is not question ever raised in the time of the prophet .......
Why would Mohammed's followers ask questions, when you could follow Mohammed and rape and sexually enslave the wives and children of the vanquished and steal their stuff? Why look a gift horse in the mouth?
Tabari VIII:38 "The Messenger of Allah commanded that all of the Jewish men and boys who had reached puberty should be beheaded. Then the Prophet divided the wealth, wives, and children of the Banu Qurayza Jews among the Muslims."
Ishaq:465 "When their wrists were bound with cords, the Apostle was a sea of generosity to us."
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....... nor objected to in the last 1000 years by any Christian Scholar.
Even if you could substantiate this claim, of what relevance would it be in this 21st century information age? Where is all the online info of a history of Mecca before that history was created in the 7th and 8th centuries? Where are the Mohammedan answers to this challenge?
This even as other tiny Arabian settlements are well attested in the historical and archaeological record.
I believe that Nabi EESA is the messiah based on the Quran and the Hadith ........
That's right. You believe Mohammed and his alter ego "Allah", in place of YHWH and His 1600 year record.
........ and not because of the unknown authors of the NT despite the complete lack of historical evidence. I believe what MuHammad (Messenger of ALLAH) is the source of PROPHETIC truth based on my belief that he is a Prophet sent by ALLAH (THE LORD OF ALL THE PROPHETS THAT CAME BEFORE) to correct the incorrect beliefs of mankind.
IN OTHER WORDS THE REQUEST FOR EVIDENCE IS DENIED, .......
Then DO NOT put verses of Mohammed in any threads in this forum, as though they have any standing against the 1600 year record of God to mankind.
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....... NOT BECAUSE IT DOES NOT EXIST ........
But if this were true then you could simply provide some links to it.
........... BUT IT IS IRRELEVANT and ARGUMENT BASED ON CONJECTURE>
You keep getting this backwards. Conjecture is the thousands of years of Mohammedan history that was all created in the 7th and 8th century. Indeed it is necessarily fiction.
The Scriptures are well attested (even confirmed through the Dead Sea scrolls) textually, historically, archaeologically and geographically.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0
Mohammed's 7th century religion fails epically on all of those counts.
SEEKING EVIDENCE FOR THE LIGHT OF ALL SCRIPTURE IS ABSURD JUST AS SHOWING ME GOD IS. IT DEFIES THE VERY ESSENCE OF BELIEF>
IMAGINE TRYING TO FIND EVIDENCE FOR ALL THE SCRIPTURE!!!!, MADNESS IT S BASED ON BELIEF, not the twisted logic of unknown authors.
It must be awful being in a position of having to try to believe in something, even as you have to rail against it and blaspheme it, because it's a requirement of following Mohammed.
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Please answer in order as requested in the terms of your return to the forum.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1912.msg8551#msg8551
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....... NOT BECAUSE IT DOES NOT EXIST ........
But if this were true then you could simply provide some links to it.
........... BUT IT IS IRRELEVANT and ARGUMENT BASED ON CONJECTURE>
You keep getting this backwards. Conjecture is the thousands of years of Mohammedan history that was all created in the 7th and 8th century. Indeed it is necessarily fiction.
The Scriptures are well attested (even confirmed through the Dead Sea scrolls) textually, historically, archaeologically and geographically.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0
Mohammed's 7th century religion fails epically on all of those counts.
SEEKING EVIDENCE FOR THE LIGHT OF ALL SCRIPTURE IS ABSURD JUST AS SHOWING ME GOD IS. IT DEFIES THE VERY ESSENCE OF BELIEF>
IMAGINE TRYING TO FIND EVIDENCE FOR ALL THE SCRIPTURE!!!!, MADNESS IT S BASED ON BELIEF, not the twisted logic of unknown authors.
It must be awful being in a position of having to try to believe in something, even as you have to rail against it and blaspheme it, because it's a requirement of following Mohammed.
DEAR PETER, WHEN YOU BASE YOUR ARGUMENTS ON ABSURD NOTIONS THE WORDS WILL FLOW FROM YOU LIKE THE MUSIC OF SATAN< I DONT HAVE THE ANSWERS TO THE ABSURD QUESTIONS< BUT IT IS IRRELAVENT TO BELIEF IN THE QURAN AND THE SUNNAH OF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD> I WOULD BELIEVE YOU AND RAFAT AMARI BUT YOU HAVE NOT PROVEN ANYTHING, YOU MAKE ABSURD CLAIMS BASED ON CONJECTURE IN THE RUDEST POSSIBLE TERMS AND LANGUAGE>
THIS MAKE YOU LOOK LIKE VILE HUMAN BEINGS TO ME, THE MORE I READ YOUR POSTS THE MORE I REALISE JUST HOW UNGODLY YOU ARE. YOU SOUND NOTHING LIKE JESUS YOU CLAIM TO FOLLOW!!!!
YOU DONT DISCUSS JESUS, JUST CONJECTURE, VERY VERY SAD
MAKKAH IS NOT A TOPIC FOR DISCUSSION WHEN YOU DONT EVEN UNDERSTAND THE BASICS OF ISLAM.
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Please answer in order as requested (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1912.msg8525#msg8525) in the terms of your return to the forum. You have several more unsubstantiated claims to support. Please start with your first claim in that post.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1912.msg8514#msg8514
MAKKAH IS THE HOLIEST CITY ON THE PLANET.
THE "Holy Land" is unarguably the historical and geographical epicenter of YHWH's temple, prophets and witnesses.
Holy Land (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,25658,26637,26767,27404&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=holy+land&cp=6&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=0&aqi=g4g-o1&aql=&oq=holy+l&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=6e8733203d1b4e27)
Temple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem)
Mecca is the epicenter solely of Mohammedanism and it's lone "prophet" Mohammed. Your empty claim is made by those indoctrinated to follow Mohammed's 7th century religion. If you are claiming otherwise please support your claim.
If you try to obfuscate by posting a blizzard of multiple unrelated topics, or material unrelated to the question, it will go straight to spam. Support your claim directly and succinctly or you will deserve another time out.
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Can't you see, my friend? The Holy Land is the Holy Land. A thousand to fourteen hundred kilometers from Mecca. Jerusalem is twelve hundred kilometers from Mecca.
The only reason you declare the UNholy city of Mecca - and the Quraish's kaaba and their black stone idol - to be holy, is purely because Mohammed's followers say they are. And this solely because of the false prophet Mohammed.
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Please answer in order as requested (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1912.msg8525#msg8525) in the terms of your return to the forum. You have several more unsubstantiated claims to support. Please start with your first claim in that post.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1912.msg8514#msg8514
MAKKAH IS THE HOLIEST CITY ON THE PLANET.
THE "Holy Land" is unarguably the historical and geographical epicenter of YHWH's temple, prophets and witnesses.
Holy Land (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,25658,26637,26767,27404&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=holy+land&cp=6&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=0&aqi=g4g-o1&aql=&oq=holy+l&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=6e8733203d1b4e27)
Temple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem)
Mecca is the epicenter solely of Mohammedanism and it's lone "prophet" Mohammed. Your empty claim is made by those indoctrinated to follow Mohammed's 7th century religion. If you are claiming otherwise please support your claim.
If you try to obfuscate by posting a blizzard of multiple unrelated topics, or material unrelated to the question, it will go straight to spam. Support your claim directly and succinctly or you will deserve another time out.
Your claims and mine are borne out of our belief in the Scripture we follow, I recognise the truth based on the little knowledge I have of the Quran and the Sunnah and the years of reading the Bible and listening to Bible stories and my understanding is that it is one long chain of Prophethood from ADAM to Muhammad.
Many interpretations abound and most cling to the very traditions of the forefathers all the Prophets came to warn mankind about.
I really have no feelings about banning or sending stuff to spam, it is as irrelavent as our conjecture on matters pertaining to THE GOD and the truth. The land is declared Holy as a matter of the actions of the nation that Occupies it, Bani Israel were chosen to leave their land for Egypt (Joseph) does that make EGYPT HOLY LAND? Then They were chosen to go to Jerusalem where the Scriptures descended, but due to the unholy actions and beliefs another nation (ARABS were chosen in their place) and everything was returned to the origin of worship MAKKAH AND THE KA"BA!
YOU CAN ONLY UNDERSTAND THE TERM HOLY IN LIGHT OF THE SCRIPTURE THAT IS REVEALED TO MANKIND. If any of this sounds foreign to you it may be because you have a Euro-centric approach to an AFRO-SEMITIC (AFRICAN< PALESTINIAN AND ARAB RELIGION>), EUROPEAN INTERPRETATIONS OF THE EVENTS AND HISTOY OF THE SEMITIC RELIGION ARE PAGAN BASED AND THEREFORE DISTORTED.
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Madina is Holy as is jerusalem (CITIS OF THE PROPHETS)
Simply saying something doesn't make it magically come true. What claim does Islam have on Jerusalem beside that which springs from Mohammed's unwitnessed story of his magic flying donkey-mule (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0), even as you blaspheme the record of the prophets to follow Mohammed's law (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1955.msg8247#msg8247).
Please support your contention regarding Medina.
JERUSALEM (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,25658,26637,26767,27404&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=artifacts+of+jerusalem&cp=9&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=artifacts+of+jerusalem&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=6e8733203d1b4e27)
The Holy City (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,25658,26637,26767,27404&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=jerusalem+holy+city&cp=13&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=0&aqi=g4g-o1&aql=&oq=jerusalem+hol&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=6e8733203d1b4e27)
ISLAM DOES NOT VIEW THE MUSLIMS AS A SEPARATE NATION THAT IS DIFFERENT FROM THE PREVIOUS PROPHETS, WE GIVE HONOUR AND REVERENCE TO ALL THE PROPHETS THAT CAME BEFORE< AND NATURALLY JERUSALEM IS THE EPICENTER OF MANY OF THE PROPHETS AS THEY WERE SENT TO THE BANI ISRAEL AS PROMISED BY ALLAH. THE BANI ISRAEL HOWEVER FORGOT THEIR PROMISE (COVENANT) AND BECAME DISOBEDIENT AND PLACED THEIR TRADITIONS AND CUSTOMS AND LAWS BEFORE THAT OF ALLAH DUE TO THEIR CONSTANT REJECTION OF SCRIPTURE< KILLING MANY PROPHETS THAT WERE SENT, THE LAST ONE BEING JESUS BORN OF MARY WHOM THE REJECTED AND WERE THUS REPLACED BY THE LINEAGE OF ISHMAEL. JERUSALEM IS MUCH MORE THAN JUST ONE NIGHT JOURNEY IN ISLAM, THE NIGHT JOURNEY WAS TO MASJIDUL AQSA.
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Please answer in order as requested (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1912.msg8525#msg8525) in the terms of your return to the forum. You have several more unsubstantiated claims to support. Please start with your first claim in that post.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1912.msg8514#msg8514
MAKKAH IS THE HOLIEST CITY ON THE PLANET.
THE "Holy Land" is unarguably the historical and geographical epicenter of YHWH's temple, prophets and witnesses.
Holy Land (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,25658,26637,26767,27404&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=holy+land&cp=6&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=0&aqi=g4g-o1&aql=&oq=holy+l&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=6e8733203d1b4e27)
Temple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem)
Mecca is the epicenter solely of Mohammedanism and it's lone "prophet" Mohammed. Your empty claim is made by those indoctrinated to follow Mohammed's 7th century religion. If you are claiming otherwise please support your claim.
If you try to obfuscate by posting a blizzard of multiple unrelated topics, or material unrelated to the question, it will go straight to spam. Support your claim directly and succinctly or you will deserve another time out.
Your claims and mine are borne out of our belief in the Scripture we follow, .......
Indeed. Mine are from ALL of the the prophets and witnesses of YHWH, and the Gospel of Jesus the Messiah. The only person in the history of the world to be conceived by a virgin by the will of God. The only sinless person in human history.
Yours are from Mohammed and the STAND-ALONE 23 year record of recitations of A SINGLE, 7th century, illiterate (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=452.0), pillaging (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=856.0), plundering (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-raid-caravans.htm), murdering (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=127.0), child doing (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=769.msg3047#msg3047), prisoner raping (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1564.0), stepson's only wife taking (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=929.0), sex slave prostituting (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=456.0), concubine fornicating (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=856.msg3411#msg3411), cheating (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=950.0), blood drenched (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=856.0), imperialistic (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geut2COmRLYsMAd.dXNyoA?p=history+islamic+first+jihad+poitiers+france+vienna+austria&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-832&sao=1), conquering (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=856.0), terrorist (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=953.0), thief (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=608.0). A man, and book that are THE EXACT OPPOSITE of Jesus and the New Testament.
........ I recognise the truth .....
A "truth" that you are at an abject loss to support scripturally, historically, archaeologically or geographically.
..... based on the little knowledge I have of the Quran and the Sunnah and the years of reading the Bible and listening to Bible stories and my understanding is that it is one long chain of Prophethood from ADAM to Muhammad.
Many interpretations abound and most cling to the very traditions of the forefathers all the Prophets came to warn mankind about.
I really have no feelings about banning or sending stuff to spam, ........
Then I would recommend that you don't join forums that require you to engage in an exchange, and support wild claims that you make.
........ it is as irrelavent as our conjecture on matters pertaining to THE GOD and the truth. The land is declared Holy as a matter of the actions of the nation that Occupies it, Bani Israel were chosen to leave their land for Egypt (Joseph) does that make EGYPT HOLY LAND? Then They were chosen to go to Jerusalem where the Scriptures descended, but due to the unholy actions and beliefs another nation (ARABS were chosen in their place) and everything was returned to the origin of worship MAKKAH AND THE KA"BA!
YOU CAN ONLY UNDERSTAND THE TERM HOLY IN LIGHT OF THE SCRIPTURE THAT IS REVEALED TO MANKIND. If any of this sounds foreign to you it may be because you have a Euro-centric approach to an AFRO-SEMITIC (AFRICAN< PALESTINIAN AND ARAB RELIGION>), EUROPEAN INTERPRETATIONS OF THE EVENTS AND HISTOY OF THE SEMITIC RELIGION ARE PAGAN BASED AND THEREFORE DISTORTED.
So far the only support you have offered are your empty and meaningless words, that you blather in here because you follow Mohammed, because Mohammed told you to.
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Madina is Holy as is jerusalem (CITIS OF THE PROPHETS)
Simply saying something doesn't make it magically come true. What claim does Islam have on Jerusalem beside that which springs from Mohammed's unwitnessed story of his magic flying donkey-mule (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0), even as you blaspheme the record of the prophets to follow Mohammed's law (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1955.msg8247#msg8247).
Please support your contention regarding Medina.
JERUSALEM (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,25658,26637,26767,27404&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=artifacts+of+jerusalem&cp=9&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=artifacts+of+jerusalem&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=6e8733203d1b4e27)
The Holy City (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,25658,26637,26767,27404&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=jerusalem+holy+city&cp=13&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=0&aqi=g4g-o1&aql=&oq=jerusalem+hol&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=6e8733203d1b4e27)
ISLAM DOES NOT VIEW THE MUSLIMS AS A SEPARATE NATION THAT IS DIFFERENT FROM THE PREVIOUS PROPHETS, ..........
We all understand what you WISH to believe you believe. But Mohammed WAS and taught the EXACT OPPOSITE of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. So what you WISH you believed, and what you DO believe are to separate and very opposite things.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0
.......... WE GIVE HONOUR AND REVERENCE TO ALL THE PROPHETS THAT CAME BEFORE< .......
But that's simply a repeat of the same wishful thinking. You don't intend to blaspheme them yet you follow Mohammed's ignorant and goofed up 7th century accounts of them and there-through blaspheme them, just as was prophesied of Mohammed's Islamic beast.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
........ AND NATURALLY JERUSALEM IS THE EPICENTER OF MANY OF THE PROPHETS AS THEY WERE SENT TO THE BANI ISRAEL AS PROMISED BY ALLAH. THE BANI ISRAEL HOWEVER FORGOT THEIR PROMISE (COVENANT) AND BECAME DISOBEDIENT AND PLACED THEIR TRADITIONS AND CUSTOMS AND LAWS BEFORE THAT OF ALLAH DUE TO THEIR CONSTANT REJECTION OF SCRIPTURE< KILLING MANY PROPHETS THAT WERE SENT, THE LAST ONE BEING JESUS BORN OF MARY WHOM THE REJECTED AND WERE THUS REPLACED BY THE LINEAGE OF ISHMAEL.
How can you make a ridiculous claim such as this, when even Mohammedans claim that Adam - the first man on earth - built the Kaaba (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1130.0)?
What religion was Adam "replacing"?
See what happens when you follow and simply regurgitate lies without thinking? You wind up in a tangle.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1130.0
Besides Mohammed having been a Hamite, from Yemen, whose ancestors migrated to Yemen from Ethiopia.
The Ishmaelites were never within around a thousand kilometers of Mecca.
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JERUSALEM IS MUCH MORE THAN JUST ONE NIGHT JOURNEY IN ISLAM, THE NIGHT JOURNEY WAS TO MASJIDUL AQSA.
Then please share with us. What other role did Jerusalem play IN THE FOUNDATION of Mohammed's 7th century religion, besides Mohammed's fanciful and UNWITNESSED night journey on a flying donkey-mule, and his lie that he prayed in a non-existent temple?
The only role Jerusalem played in Islam was much later on after being enslaved through Mohammedan conquest.
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Chat on the article regarding the home of the prophets not being the Holy Land, Jerusalem and Israel, but instead being Mecca, merged with that now-dedicated thread.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2057.0
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Best read at the following link
https://pjmedia.com/faith/2016/08/30/new-book-history-is-entirely-incompatible-with-islam/
An American Muslim who investigated the historical evidence for Islam and Christianity discovered an astounding truth: the evidence is "entirely incompatible" with Islam, while it supports the three greatest arguments for Christianity.
"It was not just that history did not support the traditional narratives of Islam, but rather that history proved to be entirely incompatible with Islamic origins," writes Nabeel Qureshi (emphasis his), author of the book No God But One: Allah or Jesus? A Former Muslim Investigates the Evidence for Islam & Christianity. The book, released Tuesday, provides a deep investigation of the key differences between the two faiths and delves into the historical evidence (or lack thereof) for each.
Qureshi investigates five basic claims, each disputed by either side. He asks the question of whether there is enough evidence that "an objective observer" would conclude in favor of Christianity or Islam. The arguments for Christianity: that Jesus died on the cross, that his disciples believed he rose from the dead, and that he claimed to be God. The arguments for Islam: that Muhammad is a prophet of Allah, and that the Quran is inspired by Allah.
[more at the link] (https://pjmedia.com/faith/2016/08/30/new-book-history-is-entirely-incompatible-with-islam/)
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Nabeel is one of the guys with Acts 17 Apologetics, that got arrested on public streets for spreading the Gospel, at the Arab Festival in Detroit.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3037.0
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"Sharia is believed by Muslims to be the divinely ordained legal system of Islam. It governs every aspect of life: politics, economics, hygiene, marriage and family relationships, diet, warfare, crime. Everything is covered."
There are four Sunni schools of Islamic law. I am currently reading an English translation of one of those schools. The book is Reliance of the Traveller by noted Islamic scholar Ahmed ibn Naqib al-Misri (translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller and published in 1999).
In the introduction, the author states, "The four Sunni schools of Islamic law, Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, and Hanbali, are identical in approximately 75 percent of their conclusions. ... The present volume [The Reliance of the Traveller] represents one of the finest and most reliable short works in Shafi'i jurisprudence."
"Just a few pages before this (pages 595-596), the Islamic law code says this about freedom of religion:
Leaving Islam is the ugliest form of unbelief (kufr) and the worst. It may come about through sarcasm, as when someone is told, "Trim your nails, it is sunna," and he replies, "I would not do it even if it were," as opposed to when some circumstance exists which exonerates him of having committed apostasy, such as when his tongue runs away with him, or when he is quoting someone, or says it out of fear.
When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostasizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed.
In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (or his representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed.
What other acts of faith (or non-faith) would invite capital punishment under Sharia? Here are just a few more (pages 596-597):
to speak words that imply unbelief such as 'Allah is the third of three,' or 'I am Allah'-- unless one's tongue has run away with one, or one is quoting another, or is one of the friends of Allah Most High in a spiritually intoxicated state of total oblivion ...
to revile Allah or His messenger ...
to deny the existence of Allah, His beginingless eternality, His endless eternality, or to deny any of His attributes which the consensus of Muslims ascribe to Him;
to be sarcastic about Allah's name, His command, His interdiction, His promise, or His threat;
to deny any verse of the Koran or anything which by scholarly consensus belongs to it, or to add a verse that does not belong to it ...
for a tyrant, after an oppressed person says, 'This is through the decree of Allah,' to reply, 'I act without the decree of Allah' ...
to revile the religion of Islam;
to deny the existence of angels or jinn or the heavens;
to be sarcastic about any ruling of the Sacred Law;
or to deny that Allah intended the Prophet's message ... to be the religion followed by the entire world. There are others, for the subject is nearly limitless.
While there are "secular" Muslims who believe that Sharia for the most part should not be binding on society, apparently many millions of Muslims seriously believe that this is the law that must be imposed upon all people everywhere all the time."
https://pjmedia.com/faith/2016/06/10/what-exactly-is-sharia-law-and-what-does-it-command/3/