[edit note on 4-26. While this thread started out as a result of our chat on anti-Zionism I have Michael2 (youtube username hillbillybushcraft) to thank for introducing me to Arnold Murray's serpent seed line cult. Since most of the later chat regards the subject of serpent seed, and I had additional chats with more in Murray's cult as a result of my serpent seed video, I consolidated the chat and moved it here so they could all be together.]
(This chat didn't start off this heated. We moved here after a lengthy back-and-forth on a YouTube video that is copy and pasted here http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3134.0 )
Michael2 PM'd
Here is some truth. The Rabbi tells all.
sent with Rabbi: "Zionists have hijacked the Jewish religion"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXjP1xdqbmE
"Here is some truth. The Rabbi tells all."
Isn't all you are saying is that you found a Rabbi that agrees with your point of view?
A Rabbi that is so naive that he actually believes that Muslims can live peacefully beside the very people they have vowed to "wipe off the map" and "drive into the sea"?
The only way Muslims have ever allowed Christians or Jews to live in their midst is as their oppressors and masters under the slavery of dhimmitude. At this link you will find what it is like to be a non-muslim living among Muslims.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2482.0
Even as you see the Muslim Brotherhood taking over, and churches in Egypt burning, let alone all around the world - at the hands of Muhammad's true followers, the best you can do is trot out a Jew expressing personal opinions?
That Jews may have forgotten the subject of the attached video, but Muhammad's true followers still consider it one of the most blessed moments in Islamic history.
sent with JIHAD!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9FYYo5EINU
Even from the start you may have noticed that one is from the U.S. another from Canada, and "originally from Palestine" meaning that NONE of them live in Israel. They don't HAVE TO live with the terror of Hamas rockets raining down on them, and market and bus suicide bombers.
Even his use of the term "Palestine" well demonstrates his ignorance as well as just how much of a Jew he is.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2403.0
Sure Turkey has always been "exemplary hosts" of Jews. That must be why it is 99% Muslim, eigh?
Gee, Turkey is so open that the only Christians they allow are Greek Orthodox Christianity, Armenian Orthodox.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3103.0
Indeed 3 Christians just had their throats slit for participating in a play of the Passion of Christ.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFTGNGja6vI
sent with Quran proclaims the EXACT OPPOSITE of Gospel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCE_sti-uZc
Why not see if you can keep an open mind, and follow along, either with this text version
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm
Or in the video.
sent with THE "BEAST" OF REVELATION 13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJODE7Q2KcM
He says that Zionism has only been around for 100 years, expressing his abject ignorance of history, regarding the restoration of Jews to their land.
No surprise since anti-zionists run like little girls from the actual history of Zionism, and the restoration that began in the early 19th century after 1600 years of Islamization had rendered Israel physically, as well as spiritually, desolate. With a population of Jerusalem reduced to just 550.
A hat and curls does not make that history-ignorant dude a Jew.
sent with Zionism in Modern History (p1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT5VHU-LA4o
@PeteWaldo I have registered as Michael2. But I work a lot and study a lot. I will try to be part of this forum. However I don't know that I can always reply to everything but will try. Thanks
QuoteWhen I include the YouTube chat, do you want me to change your YouTube ID, to the ID you selected for this forum?
It really don't matter to me.
As I said it looks like you got most of the conversation already inserted. I see no need to do it again.
We can just continue with the last post. I understand why you want it like that but this conversation has just started it would appear.
I have another question for you. On top of my last post. You must be part of the any moment crowd? i.e. Jesus could return at any moment.
No not ONE Jew. MANY Jews express his same "opinion". If you had looked in the side column of that video you would have seen many more videos that have the same content. What I am telling you is that the real Jews that are Torah Jews know the truth behind false Zionism. They know their identity has been hijacked! To push an agenda. I know you think everyone that is against this false Zionism is pro Islam but you are dead wrong. I don't care about Islam or Muhammad! And I agree the Muslim brotherhood is dangerous to everyone. I do NOT take up for these people becasue I know their track record, but look at this. Hussein, protected Christianity! Fact! It was legal to worship Jesus in Iraq before he was taken out of power. Assad also gives the freedom to worship Jesus. But when he is removed the Muslim brotherhood will come in and Christians will have to Move again. The powers that be in Israel are pushing the US to remove these Kings to make the transition to the NWO easier! At the cost of Christians everywhere. Do you think American Christians would support these wars if they knew their brethren were being booted or martyred? In complete blindness " supposed Christians" support Israel no matter what just because the name and they don't even know who they are.
When he said Palestine he is talking about Israel! Yes they know the horror that is going on there. What he is saying is that if they wouldn't have hijacked the name if Judaism for there cause they wouldn't have the support that they have. He is telling you the truth, that all of this is a lie. Those false Zionist are NOT real jews.
Again he is talking about FALSE Zionism. Not the real zionism of old that we read of in the old testament. And he is absolutely correct about this particular form of zionism. It had only been conceived about 100 years ago.
Ok I watched your video. And yes the Muslim faith is wickedness, and they have done a lot of bad things and they are definitely NOT Christian but I don't know any of the zionist Jews that are Christian either. But is it the final beast system. Absoluty unequivocally NO. My suggestion to you is to look at what Babylon was. As well as the other beast systems you mentioned. But more particularly Babylon not just WHO was running Babylon, that is were I think you are confused. You think just because it was Aramaic peoples then it still is. It is NOT. Mystery Babylon is a Mystery for a reason and the false Zionist calling themselves "Jews" are behind it all. They give our brother Judah a bad name. Muslims today don't have the ability to be a world power no matter how much you want them to be able to. The final beast system is false Zionism! World control. The NWO. The word of God defines it's self and we don't have to guess at these things. It is still a mystery to many but it will be revealed to ALL before long. And I know I have said this before but really. You have to stop quoting the Quran! You make the claim that Muhammad is the FP and you teach his word like it is the Gospel truth. Can you can you see the conflict there?
One more thing Rev says the FP had two horns like the lamb. Those two horns are King of Kings and Lord of Lords! Muhammad was not deified! So once again this proves he can NOT be the FP. But then I already proved this with Mat 24. The FP comes right before the True Christ. As I warned before be careful about this teaching. It is just as dangerous as a pre-trib teaching. Telling people the FP has already come will confuse them when he does show up, and he will. Coming very soon.
[[[[No not ONE Jew. MANY Jews express his same "opinion". If you had looked in the side column of that video you would have seen many more videos that have the same content. What I am telling you is that the real Jews that are Torah Jews know the truth behind false Zionism.]]]]
Sure. The 6 million Jews in Israel just don't get it. Apparently, as far as you're concerned 2500 years of persecution while being scattered among the nations just wasn't enough, was it?
Torah Jews are also Zionists. You yourself can see a church split right in two on the subject.
I don't find it a surprise that the ecumenical part of the church is on your side, Presbyterians whose leaders praised Hezbollah, along with the World Council of Churches and every other apostate political group that pretends to be Christian.
It's the prophesied "falling away"/apostasy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism#Christian
I'm glad I'm not going to stand in judgment with this part of the "church".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinvestment_from_Israel#Churches
Again, it isn't a hat and curls that determine what a Jew is.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
[[[[[They know their identity has been hijacked! To push an agenda. I know you think everyone that is against this false Zionism is pro Islam but you are dead wrong. I don't care about Islam or Muhammad!]]]]
That's why you you don't care that you are engaged in the Islamic conquest of the world. Cheering on the subjugation of your heirs to prostrating to a black stone idol in Mecca.
It's why you are helping Muslims turn the only democracy in the Middle East - where Christians and Muslims enjoy more freedom than they do in any Islam controlled country on earth - into just another female circumcising, sharia law ruled, Christian beheading, wife beating Islamist slave state.
[[[[And I agree the Muslim brotherhood is dangerous to everyone. I do NOT take up for these people ......]]]]
That is EXACTLY what you do. You are on their side. You are aiding in the Islamic conquest of the world.
[[[[[...... becasue I know their track record, but look at this. Hussein, protected Christianity! Fact!]]]]
Well gee, then I guess it follows that every country on earth needs to be run by a maniacal brutal dictator and his insane sons who torture kill all political dissidents and anyone else that disagreed with them.
[[[[It was legal to worship Jesus in Iraq before he was taken out of power. Assad also gives the freedom to worship Jesus. But when he is removed the Muslim brotherhood will come in and Christians will have to Move again.]]]]]
Exactly! If you hadn't been blinded by your ridiculous doctrine you would understand that this is all just as prophesied of THE false prophet Muhammad and his Islamic "beast" kingdom.
[[[[The powers that be in Israel are pushing the US to remove these Kings to make the transition to the NWO easier! At the cost of Christians everywhere.]]]]
No. It's people like you that are advancing the cause of Islam that is to the detriment of God's people. Only someone whose mind is completely broken could argue with Benjamin Netanyahu when he said:
"If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel"
THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE. But as we learned, the creeps that cheered on Israel's giving away Gaza - that they built from desert wasteland over 50 years - were actually only working to give the Islamists a platform closer to Jerusalem for them to launch their rockets into.
Not a single "deal" with Israel was ever honored by Muhammad's followers. That's because Muhammad told them that if a better deal comes along then simply break your oath.
"...if I take an oath and later find something else better than that. then I do what is better and expiate my oath.' "
Sahih Bukhari 7:67:427
But folks like you would rather work with Muslims toward the genocide of Jews. Nothing new. Muhammad mass murdered Jews, and the Islamic Mufti of Jerusalem worked hand in hand with Hitler, with 2 Islamic panzer divisions in Hitler's army. And you run with Nazis today!
Why do you find Nazis, skinheads, Muslims, Soviets, the KKK & David Duke on your anti-zionist side? Doesn't that make you feel even a little uncomfortable?
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
[[[[Do you think American Christians would support these wars if they knew their brethren were being booted or martyred?]]]]
Because of false doctrine and waiting around for some future boogieman, and some "future" "tribulation", the "church" didn't seem to notice tribulation in which 2 million - many Christian brethren - slain or displaced in the Sudan alone by THE false prophet Muhammad's antichrists.
Or the thousand Christians killed on the Ivory Coast of Africa recently by the new Muslim government there.
Or the 18,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world, just since 9-11
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
[[[[ In complete blindness " supposed Christians" support Israel no matter what just because the name and they don't even know who they are.]]]]
Even secular humanists are smart enough to want to defend freedom, democracy, self-rule and the right to self-determination for citizens - rather than the Christian beheading, female circumcising, wife beating, sharia law ruled, Jew genocidal, Islamist slave state, that you are cheering on for the future of Israel.
sent with Islamization of Sweden
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIrcNL9PfUU
[[[[Ok I watched your video. And yes the Muslim faith is wickedness, and they have done a lot of bad things and they are definitely NOT Christian but I don't know any of the zionist Jews that are Christian either.]]]]
Let me help you here since apparently you were unaware that Jews and Christians share the same God. We share the Old Testament.
You are working with Islam toward the Islamic conquest of Israel (and genocide of Jews), just as they are fulfilling the 1400 year Islamic goal of the conquest of the world and subjugation of all people to Muhammad's followers.
[[[[But is it the final beast system. Absoluty unequivocally NO.]]]]
Sure. It's Judaism we are supposed to hate and not the false prophet Muhammad's Islam.
[[[[My suggestion to you is to look at what Babylon was. As well as the other beast systems you mentioned. But more particularly Babylon not just WHO was running Babylon, that is were I think you are confused. You think just because it was Aramaic peoples then it still is. It is NOT. Mystery Babylon is a Mystery for a reason and the false Zionist calling themselves "Jews" are behind it all.]]]]
That's ridiculous. It is secular Jews that you have the problem with - like Hollywood types - that are located all around the world.
[[[[They give our brother Judah a bad name. Muslims today don't have the ability to be a world power no matter how much you want them to be able to. The final beast system is false Zionism! World control. The NWO. The word of God defines it's self and we don't have to guess at these things. It is still a mystery to many but it will be revealed to ALL before long. And I know I have said this before but really. You have to stop quoting the Quran!]]]]
You didn't say that, but it doesn't surprise me that you would want to keep me from showing blind, deaf and dumb "Christians" like you who want to keep your head stuck in the sand rather than come to terms with who the REAL ENEMY IS because it goofs up your false doctrine so! You're afraid to loose your focus off of hating Zionist Jews eigh?
[[[[I can see how You make the claim that Muhammad is the FP and you teach his word like it is the Gospel truth.]]]]
You are so ignorant that you couldn't see that the verses that I quoted are the ones that demand his followers fight and kill Christians and Jews. HIS FOLLOWERS UNDERSTAND IT AS THE GOSPEL TRUTH.
BECAUSE YOU WERE IGNORANT AS A BOX OF HAMMERS TO ISLAM, YOU JOINED THEM IN THEIR CONQUEST OF ISRAEL.
Those who teach the Quran like it is the Gospel truth, are futurists that hold your doctrine, and draw parallels between Darby's future boogeyman "The" "Antichrist" and Muhammad's one-eyed Islamic future boogeyman in the same role.
This should instead help Christians that hold that false understanding of a future "The" "Antichrist", realize it is a pile of crap because Muhammad's followers are waiting for the same thing!
[[[[Can you can you see the conflict there?]]]]
Not in the least, but I can well understand your fear of learning Muslims are the final foe of God's people causing you to have to overcome your false doctrine. I believed in the future boogeyman myself, until the Lord helped me overcome Darby's heresy.
[[[[[One more thing Rev says the FP had two horns like the lamb.]]]]
No it doesn't. It says the second BEAST had two horns.
False prophets are people, just as prophets are. People don't have horns.
[[[[[Those two horns are King of Kings and Lord of Lords!]]]]
Perhaps the most evil and misguided exegesis of scripture I have come across. Though no surprise coming from you.
Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he SPAKE AS A DRAGON. 12 And HE exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein TO WORSHIP THE FIRST BEAST, whose deadly wound was healed.
Being "like a lamb" but speaking "as a dragon" regards the false Roman Church crusades and the "Christian" British Empire that held power briefly "before" or in the presence of the first Islamic kingdom "beast".
The deadly wound of the Islamic beast was when its First Jihad had conquered nearly the whole known world all the way up to France and Austria, but then suffered a crushing defeat at the hands of Charles Martel. That deadly wound was healed by western wealth transfer to finance the Second Islamic Jihad that is currently engaged in conquest all around the world. Through terrorism as well as rabid populating.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/leopard_bear_lion_beast.htm#two_horned_beast
[[[[Muhammad was not deified!]]]]
The reason you aren't quoting scripture is because your eschatology is an ever veering toward blasphemy frightening mess. However your point would still be wrong. Muhammad and his alter-ego "Allah" are who Muhammadans place their faith in and worship. They are required to recite Muhammad's name dozens of times a day. It isn't about what Muhammad said, but what he accomplished. Their faith is in "Allah" and Muhammad was his messenger. There was no "Allah" - there was only ever Muhammad.
[[[[So once again this proves he can NOT be the FP. But then I already proved this with Mat 24. The FP comes right before the True Christ.]]]]
It is only your false doctrine that makes you believe that
[[[[As I warned before be careful about this teaching. It is just as dangerous as a pre-trib teaching.\]]]]]
But as you have shown repeatedly, your blindness from following John Nelson Darby's 7 year tribulation, even has you siding with 1.5 billion antichrists toward the genocide of God's people in Israel.
[[[[Telling people the FP has already come will confuse them ....]]]]
Confuse? You believe a satanic beast that speaks as a dragon is wearing Jesus as horns, and you are worried about others being confused???
The anti-zionist filth you spread along with Nazis, skinheads, Muslims, the KKK & David Duke and you consider yourself in a position to give advice to a Christian?
[[[[[.... when he does show up, and he will. Coming very soon.]]]]
It's Jesus Christ that will be coming soon, and He will find you on the side of 1.5 billion of the false prophet Muhammad's antichrists, working shoulder to shoulder toward genocide of His chosen people. Working to convert Israel into another Christian beheading, child doing, female circumcising, sharia law ruled, wife beating Islamic slave state.
You need to seriously consider what Jesus will think of that, if He were to come TODAY.
Sent with John's 8 kings / beasts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6GXi0KU_WQ
You don't listen very well or just can't read. I DO NOT SIDE WITH MUSLIMS or their cause. Do you understand. Nor ANY religion that is not of Jesus Christ. You are the one quoting quran!
You are completely diluted! You are wrong on so many levels. So now you claim that not all that claim to be a jew are jews? "Again, it isn't a hat and curls that determine what a Jew is." Right? If so then you a re learning. And for the last time I do not stand with any other than Christians. Also as far as Christian martyrdom goes. Yes Islam has killed many. Unfortunately Catholics has done the same. Do you know why? It is because instead of following the Church like you do. They studied the word of God for their self. I don't see how you can't see the four hidden dynasties that are being ran by the powers that be. And NO it is not Islam. It is false Zionist! You are completely blind to truth. As I said before Pushing the US to do these things will only further hurt Christians in the region. And blind support because of a name is ignorance! There are none of the things you mentioned going on in Israel. Nor ever will be. Did you know that when Israel became a state they almost outlawed Christianity? They decided not to because they wouldn't have American support! Fact.
And if you don't believe that the anti-christ is coming then your denying the very words of Jesus!
LOL this is the funniest reply yet.
"No it doesn't. It says the second BEAST had two horns.
False prophets are people, just as prophets are. People don't have horns."
Rev 16:13 (KJV) "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet."
Rev 19:20 (KJV) "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
Rev 20:10 (KJV) "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
Again maybe I didn't phrase that just right. Jesus' two horns are king of Kings and Lord of Lords. It says the FP had two horns LIKE the lamb. Surely you understand that.
And NO i do NOT follow John Darby. You make one tiny little association and assume everything. It is rediculous. By the way. Why would a Christian be offended by the word like you are? LOL
LOL this is the funniest reply yet.
"No it doesn't. It says the second BEAST had two horns.
False prophets are people, just as prophets are. People don't have horns."
Rev 16:13 (KJV) "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet."
Rev 19:20 (KJV) "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
Rev 20:10 (KJV) "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
Again maybe I didn't phrase that just right. Jesus' two horns are King of Kings and Lord of Lords. It says the FP had two horns LIKE the lamb. Surely you understand that.
And NO i do NOT follow John Darby. You make one tiny little association and assume everything. It is rediculous. By the way. Why would a Christian be offended by the word like you are? LOL
I would add that yes it is the second Beast but that second beast is defined by the same book as the FP. That alone destroys the majority of what you teach!
You must be part of the any moment crowd? i.e. Jesus could return at any moment.
Has anybody ever told you that you are eccentric? And Dead wrong about the Bible! LOL
OK no problem. Let's move forward.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 05:19:33 PM
Has anybody ever told you that you are eccentric? And Dead wrong about the Bible! LOL
They have, until they were asked to be specific, and then they come up short.
Muslims make a lot of hollow claims so I am used to it.
I am Christian! So I hope you are not referring to me as Muslim.
I like the quote. I use it as well.
Few understand what it means do you?
"Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed." ~ William Blake
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 05:29:26 PM
I am Christian! So I hope you are not referring to me as Muslim.
I like the quote. I use it as well.
Few understand what it means do you?
"Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed." ~ William Blake
No, not referring to you as a Muslim. Please forgive me for creating the misunderstanding. I tried and tested the traditional continuous-historic context (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm) of prophecy that I hold (advanced by Ellis Skolfield for the last 30 years) in Christian forums for 1-1/2 to 2 years, full time.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 05:24:41 PM
With the other set of questions I seen no need to. I still asked the question if you will look at the bottom! Lets get on with the debate already.
So that we aren't talking about 2 separate things. I think it's important for us to first agree on a definition of Zionism. Here's one.
Zionism (Hebrew: ×¦×™×•× ×•×ªâ€Ž, Tsiyonut) is a form of nationalism of Jews and Jewish culture that supports a Jewish nation state in territory defined as the Land of Israel.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
another
"Zionism, the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims."
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/zionism.html
Unfortunately I am going out to dinner soon so I have to bread until later. Here's a website that you can browse in the meantime. http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_great_detective.htm
Quote
"Zionism, the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims.
I agree with defining terms. But I think we should back up another step and define "Jew"
I hope you are a Strong's user
OT Jew #3064 desc. of Judah Judaite
NT Jew # 2453 From #2448 a country Judean Belonging to Jehudah
#2448 Judah or of place in Palestine.
Not all are of the tribe of Judah.
Also according to Deut 5 trough 7 Israel is God' chosen people.
That is.. All 12 tribes. Not one.
As far as zionism
I am not sure we will agree on a definition. Because your view and my view are different. That is a lot of this debate.
False Zionism is the final beast system. They are the NWO.
?? Zionism of old we agree on but today we do not.
QuoteI tried and tested the traditional continuous-historic context of prophecy that I hold (advanced by Ellis Skolfield for the last 30 years) in Christian forums for 1-1/2 to 2 years, full time.
You study with Skolfield?? That answers a lot!
Is there any way you can make this board so after you post you return to the end of the thread instead of the mail page?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 05:44:07 PMAs far as zionism
I am not sure we will agree on a definition. Because your view and my view are different. That is a lot of this debate.
False Zionism is the final beast system. They are the NWO.
?? Zionism of old we agree on but today we do not.
This is not going to be very constructive if you create your own definition of a term that is well defined. I gave you two definitions and all of the rest will be similar.
Do you support the restoration of the Jews to the land of Israel or not?
Do you support their right to freedom and self-determination and self-rule in Israel?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 05:47:53 PM
QuoteI tried and tested the traditional continuous-historic context of prophecy that I hold (advanced by Ellis Skolfield for the last 30 years) in Christian forums for 1-1/2 to 2 years, full time.
You study with Skolfield?? That answers a lot!
You believe in a future "The" "Antichrist" and in a future false prophet.
Do you believe in a 7-year tribulation during which they will be revealed?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 05:49:05 PM
Is there any way you can make this board so after you post you return to the end of the thread instead of the mail page?
I've never heard of that happening to anybody in the 3 or so years we have been online.
Maybe if you close your browser and reopen it it will fix it.
[edit add] I think I just realized what you meant. If you mean it goes to the top of the thread page and you have to scroll back to the bottom, I think that's just the way it works (cookie crumbles!)
I'll be back within the hour.
QuoteDo you support the restoration of the Jews to the land of Israel or not?
Again. Define Jew?? It is that important!
Quote
Do you support their right to freedom and self-determination and self-rule in Israel?
I support Everyones right to freedom. In Israel?? Again it depends on how you define Jew??
If it is of the tribe of Judah. Yes!
Aa far as a fake. Well... Like I said before, not all that claim to be of the tribe of Judah are. And with that being said. No I don't support those in particular. Rev 2:9 and 3:9 as well as MANY places through out the NT these are talked about.
I know this is all very confusing if you havnt heard of it before but this is the truth.
I would rather all of Israel return when Christ returns.
QuoteYou believe in a future "The" "Antichrist" and in a future false prophet.
Do you believe in a 7-year tribulation during which they will be revealed?
7 year trib NO! Here is why.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Shorted to what. It says it will be as it was in the days of Noah. Here is part of the big secret. Noah was on the Ark for 1 year. It rained 40 days and 40 nights.
The flood was upon the face of the earth for 150 days. And that is the Key.
The flood that is coming is a flood of lies! 150 divided by 30 is 5!!
The days have been shorted to a five month period.
The days of Satans tribulation!
I would also point out that the season of the Locust army spoken of in Rev. is Five months. More specifically in nature. And I shouldn't have to tell you that God uses nature to show us things. The locust season is May though Sept. 5 months.
Again. I know what John said about being our brother in tribulation but ...
Jesus said in Mat 24:29 Immediately after
the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Again this is the tribulation of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Jesus is very specific and it can not refer to an earlier point in time.
QuoteI've never heard of that happening to anybody in the 3 or so years we have been online.
Maybe if you close your browser and reopen it it will fix it.
[edit add] I think I just realized what you meant. If you mean it goes to the top of the thread page and you have to scroll back to the bottom, I think that's just the way it works (cookie crumbles!)
When I post it takes me here
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=73.0
Is that suppose to happen? I was hoping it would just take me to the end of the thread. But I can live with it.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 06:19:27 PM
QuoteI've never heard of that happening to anybody in the 3 or so years we have been online.
Maybe if you close your browser and reopen it it will fix it.
[edit add] I think I just realized what you meant. If you mean it goes to the top of the thread page and you have to scroll back to the bottom, I think that's just the way it works (cookie crumbles!)
When I post it takes me here
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=73.0
Is that suppose to happen? I was hoping it would just take me to the end of the thread. But I can live with it.
Yea it takes me there too. It doesn't though if you are
editing a post, but it does for initiating a post.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 06:15:20 PM
QuoteYou believe in a future "The" "Antichrist" and in a future false prophet.
Do you believe in a 7-year tribulation during which they will be revealed?
7 year trib NO! Here is why.
So what do you expect your future "The" "Antichrist" to do?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 06:15:20 PM
Again this is the tribulation of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Jesus is very specific and it can not refer to an earlier point in time.
What is the abomination of desolation?
Quote from: Peter on March 17, 2012, 08:09:36 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 06:15:20 PM
QuoteYou believe in a future "The" "Antichrist" and in a future false prophet.
Do you believe in a 7-year tribulation during which they will be revealed?
7 year trib NO! Here is why.
So what do you expect your future "The" "Antichrist" to do?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 06:15:20 PM
Again this is the tribulation of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Jesus is very specific and it can not refer to an earlier point in time.
What is the abomination of desolation?
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
This is a reference to Daniel 12:11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. “
It is used as the equivalent for a special Idol as it was in Deut 7:26 “Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing. “ and in 1 Kings 11:7 “Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.†Compared to 2 Thes 2:4 “Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.â€
Anti-Christ well show the world that he is god! He is the false Messiah. He will claim that he is a descendant of David. Just like the false Zionist do today.
Also Check this out!!
Dan 12:12 “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.†Do you understand?
This is talking about those that do not get deceived by the anti-Christ during his tribulation. That is to follow satan but are patient and wait on the Lord!
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 06:06:11 PM
QuoteDo you support the restoration of the Jews to the land of Israel or not?
Again. Define Jew?? It is that important!
Quote
Do you support their right to freedom and self-determination and self-rule in Israel?
I support Everyones right to freedom. In Israel?? Again it depends on how you define Jew??
If it is of the tribe of Judah. Yes!
Come on, what about the Levites?
What about Jews like me that are grafted in?
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and
with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 06:06:11 PM
Aa far as a fake. Well... Like I said before, not all that claim to be of the tribe of Judah are.
Sorry, but anybody from the tribe of Judah that is secular, agnostic or atheist isn't a Jew.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 06:06:11 PMAnd with that being said. No I don't support those in particular. Rev 2:9 and 3:9 as well as MANY places through out the NT these are talked about.
I know this is all very confusing if you havnt heard of it before but this is the truth.
You mean is that it is what you believe to be truth, but I don't think you understand what a Jew is.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 06:06:11 PM
I would rather all of Israel return when Christ returns.
You can
rather the tooth fairy, but what does scripture indicate?
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 08:28:17 PMThes 2:4 “Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.â€
Anti-Christ well show the world that he is god! He is the false Messiah.
So what temple is that?
What does the abomination desolate?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 08:28:17 PMHe will claim that he is a descendant of David. Just like the false Zionist do today.
What about the faithful descendents of David that can honestly make that claim?
Are you in favor of them ruling and reigning over Israel?
Quote from: Peter on March 17, 2012, 08:33:22 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 06:06:11 PM
QuoteDo you support the restoration of the Jews to the land of Israel or not?
Again. Define Jew?? It is that important!
Quote
Do you support their right to freedom and self-determination and self-rule in Israel?
I support Everyones right to freedom. In Israel?? Again it depends on how you define Jew??
If it is of the tribe of Judah. Yes!
Come on, what about the Levites?
What about Jews like me that are grafted in?
Levites?? They are Israel. We are specifically talking about Jews! And once again they are not all of Israel! That is fact!
Quote
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 06:06:11 PM
Aa far as a fake. Well... Like I said before, not all that claim to be of the tribe of Judah are.
Sorry, but anybody from the tribe of Judah that is secular, agnostic or atheist isn't a Jew.
I disagree. Spiritually this is correct. But physically that is not true. If the blood lines didn't matter God would not have kept them in his word. Actually it is very important. God hated Esau because he sold his birth right. Remember?
Quote
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 06:06:11 PMAnd with that being said. No I don't support those in particular. Rev 2:9 and 3:9 as well as MANY places through out the NT these are talked about.
I know this is all very confusing if you havnt heard of it before but this is the truth.
You mean is that it is what you believe to be truth, but I don't think you understand what a Jew is.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 06:06:11 PM
I would rather all of Israel return when Christ returns.
You can rather the tooth fairy, but what does scripture indicate?
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
I understand and have put many years into understand the Jew. I once thought as you when it comes to this particular subject believe it or not! Then the Holy Spirit showed me the truth. I have to admit it was a hard pill to swallow. But the more I read I confirmed it.
And yes the scripture indicates ALL Israel will return to the Holy Land win Jesus returns! Christ is returning to the Mount of Olives and that is were we will meet him.
Quote from: Peter on March 17, 2012, 08:40:17 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 08:28:17 PMAnti-Christ well show the world that he is god! He is the false Messiah.
So where does he do that from? The back of a pick-up truck?
Did You read the post I posted?? 2 Thes 2 tells you were from. Which is what I have been telling you. Jerusalem!!
Quote
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 08:28:17 PMHe will claim that he is a descendant of David. Just like the false Zionist do today.
What about the faithful descendents of David that can honestly make that claim?
Are you in favor of them ruling and reigning over Israel?
I don't have a problem with it. But most Torah Jews do have a problem with that. Despite what you think and what you are taught.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 08:46:13 PM
Quote from: Peter on March 17, 2012, 08:33:22 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 06:06:11 PM
QuoteDo you support the restoration of the Jews to the land of Israel or not?
Again. Define Jew?? It is that important!
Quote
Do you support their right to freedom and self-determination and self-rule in Israel?
I support Everyones right to freedom. In Israel?? Again it depends on how you define Jew??
If it is of the tribe of Judah. Yes!
Come on, what about the Levites?
What about Jews like me that are grafted in?
Levites?? They are Israel. We are specifically talking about Jews! And once again they are not all of Israel! That is fact!
Quote
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 06:06:11 PM
Aa far as a fake. Well... Like I said before, not all that claim to be of the tribe of Judah are.
Sorry, but anybody from the tribe of Judah that is secular, agnostic or atheist isn't a Jew.
I disagree.
You aren't disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with Paul.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 08:46:13 PMSpiritually this is correct. But physically that is not true. If the blood lines didn't matter God would not have kept them in his word. Actually it is very important. God hated Esau because he sold his birth right. Remember?
Now you're arguing like a Muslim. They don't want to draw a distinction between the old covenant and the new covenant either. As Paul explained in the following verses (that you even quoted) in the Christian era, THE ONLY JEW is a faithful Jew.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 08:46:13 PM
Quote
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 06:06:11 PMAnd with that being said. No I don't support those in particular. Rev 2:9 and 3:9 as well as MANY places through out the NT these are talked about.
I know this is all very confusing if you havnt heard of it before but this is the truth.
You mean is that it is what you believe to be truth, but I don't think you understand what a Jew is.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 06:06:11 PM
I would rather all of Israel return when Christ returns.
You can rather the tooth fairy, but what does scripture indicate?
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
I understand and have put many years into understand the Jew. I once thought as you when it comes to this particular subject believe it or not! Then the Holy Spirit showed me the truth.
Ted Pike thought the Holy Spirit showed him the truth too.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 08:46:13 PMI have to admit it was a hard pill to swallow. But the more I read I confirmed it.
Maybe you meant that once you started seeking a particular outcome, wouldn't you know it, the scriptures accommodated!
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 08:46:13 PM
And yes the scripture indicates ALL Israel will return to the Holy Land win Jesus returns! Christ is returning to the Mount of Olives and that is were we will meet him.
No you are wrong. This is not an accommodation issue. When I realized the truth it slapped me in the face. Many of the groups that you mention never make the distinction I make. Again there is a difference. And No I do not disagree with Paul at all. You don't understand what Paul is saying, as most Christians do not. Paul was a scholar in his time. When he writes there are many that either only understand the elementary level of what he taught or not at all. They are perpetually confused. The only Jew is a faithful Jew to what??
How can a man argue like a Muslim. When he has accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior?? They argue the birth right of Ishmael I argue the blood right of Isaac!! Why do you think Christ Genealogy is listed in Mat 1?? It DOES matter. Then and Now.
Quote from: Peter on March 17, 2012, 09:13:45 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 08:48:53 PM
Quote from: Peter on March 17, 2012, 08:40:17 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 08:28:17 PMAnti-Christ well show the world that he is god! He is the false Messiah.
So where does he do that from? The back of a pick-up truck?
Did You read the post I posted?? 2 Thes 2 tells you were from. Which is what I have been telling you. Jerusalem!!Quote
Didn't the verse you quoted say he sitteth in the temple of God?
Where do you think the temple of God is?? It is in Jerusalem!
Which temple of God in Jerusalem?
Come on. Really.... are we going to play word games. You know very well what temple. I know it was partially destroyed in 70 A.D. but taht is still God's Favorite place. Right there in Jerusalem.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 09:20:30 PM
Come on. Really.... are we going to play word games.
No we're going to respect the scriptures.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 09:20:30 PMYou know very well what temple. I know it was partially destroyed in 70 A.D. but taht is still God's Favorite place. Right there in Jerusalem.
The temple WAS NOT
PARTIALLY destroyed. It was thrown down - every stone -
just as Jesus prophesied it would be. All that's left is the mount.
So where does the antichrist sitteth?
So what does the abomination desolate?
Quote from: Peter on March 17, 2012, 09:23:16 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 09:20:30 PM
Come on. Really.... are we going to play word games. You know very well what temple. I know it was partially destroyed in 70 A.D. but taht is still God's Favorite place. Right there in Jerusalem.
The temple WAS NOT PARTIALLY destroyed. It was thrown down - every stone - just as Jesus prophesied. All that's left is the mount.
So where does the antichrist sitteth?
So what does the abomination desolate?
LOL NO not hardly. Do you know what it means to not have one stone left standing upon another?? It means it will be turned into sand!!!
The walls are still standing. It has not been destroyed as it will be destroyed like Christ was talking about.
QuoteSo where does the antichrist sitteth?
Right where Paul said he would.
Quote
So what does the abomination desolate?
The desolator makes desolate the Children. He will make them apostate!
Just as he did before!!
Rev 12
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 09:25:38 PM
Quote from: Peter on March 17, 2012, 09:23:16 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 09:20:30 PM
Come on. Really.... are we going to play word games. You know very well what temple. I know it was partially destroyed in 70 A.D. but taht is still God's Favorite place. Right there in Jerusalem.
The temple WAS NOT PARTIALLY destroyed. It was thrown down - every stone - just as Jesus prophesied. All that's left is the mount.
So where does the antichrist sitteth?
So what does the abomination desolate?
LOL NO not hardly. Do you know what it means to not have one stone left standing upon another?? It means it will be turned into sand!!!
The walls are still standing.
I've seen people go through preposterous machinations to try to make a false doctrine work, but I've never seen the likes of that. I suspect you may be the only person on earth that doesn't recognize the temple was removed - every stone.
Sorry my friend but the dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa mosque are the only two things standing on the temple mount.
If there were remnants of walls standing, are you saying the antichrist would be sitting on the temple mount in among a ruin?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 09:25:38 PMIt has not been destroyed as it will be destroyed like Christ was talking about.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 09:29:00 PM
QuoteSo where does the antichrist sitteth?
Right where Paul said he would.
Quote
So what does the abomination desolate?
The desolator makes desolate the Children. He will make them apostate!
Just as he did before!!
Rev 12
But just a minute ago you were trying to make the case for a partial temple that the antichrist defiles, and now you seem to be saying it is children he desolates.
So what's the abomination?
Is it a man sitting?
Quote from: Peter on March 17, 2012, 09:32:58 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 09:25:38 PM
Quote from: Peter on March 17, 2012, 09:23:16 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 09:20:30 PM
Come on. Really.... are we going to play word games. You know very well what temple. I know it was partially destroyed in 70 A.D. but taht is still God's Favorite place. Right there in Jerusalem.
The temple WAS NOT PARTIALLY destroyed. It was thrown down - every stone - just as Jesus prophesied. All that's left is the mount.
So where does the antichrist sitteth?
So what does the abomination desolate?
LOL NO not hardly. Do you know what it means to not have one stone left standing upon another?? It means it will be turned into sand!!!
The walls are still standing.
I've seen people go through preposterous machinations to try to make a false doctrine work, but I've never seen the likes of that. I suspect you may be the only person on earth that doesn't recognize the temple was removed - every stone.
Sorry my friend but the dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa mosque are the only two things standing on the temple mount.
If there were remnants of walls standing, are you saying the antichrist would be sitting on the temple mount in among a ruin?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 09:25:38 PMIt has not been destroyed as it will be destroyed like Christ was talking about.
I knew for the last several post you were trying to get me to say he would be sitting in the Mosque. LOL
LOL Your going to have to get up a little earlier than that to get me.
And NO I am not the only one that says that. MANY MANY good Christian Scholars say the same. You do know that the "Jews" are doing their best to get that temple rebuilt don't you? It turns out after many years of surveying they say the Temple was actually situated to the north of the Mosque and could be built without destroying the Mosque. Although I am not sure if they will actually build it or not. And of course they will have the full support of Christians like your self. That means the support of the US military if needs be.
Quote from: Peter on March 17, 2012, 09:39:59 PM
So what's the abomination?
Is it a man sitting?
I already answered that. In an earlier post. Satan is the abomination that makes desolate. Just as he did in Rev 12. When I said Children I hope you know I am talking about the Children of God?? Don't You. Do I really have to be that specific??
And the word of God says he will sit in the temple of God showing himself that he is god. Not ME! Do you really think that sitting in the temple is the only thing that he will make desolate. Do you know what the word means?
Strong's 8074 Desolate
A primitive root; to stun (or intransitively, grow numb), i.e. Devastate or (figuratively) stupefy (both usually in a passive sense) -- make amazed, be astonied, (be an) astonish(-ment), (be, bring into, unto, lay, lie, make) desolate(-ion, places), be destitute, destroy (self), (lay, lie, make) waste, wonder.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 09:43:21 PM
Quote from: Peter on March 17, 2012, 09:39:59 PM
So what's the abomination?
Is it a man sitting?
I already answered that. In an earlier post. Satan is the abomination that makes desolate. Just as he did in Rev 12. When I said Children I hope you know I am talking about the Children of God?? Don't You. Do I really have to be that specific??
And the word of God says he will sit in the temple of God showing himself that he is god. Not ME! Do you really think that sitting in the temple is the only thing that he will make desolate. Do you know what the word means?
Didn't Christ tell us that the abomination is an it that is standing? Is an it that is standing the same as a he that sitteth? Wouldn't an it be inanimate object. Didn't Daniel say it was setup? I thought Paul said it was the man of sin that sitteth in the temple of God? Didn't John tell us about antichrists? Are you confusing the two?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 09:40:40 PM
Quote from: Peter on March 17, 2012, 09:32:58 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 09:25:38 PM
Quote from: Peter on March 17, 2012, 09:23:16 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 09:20:30 PM
Come on. Really.... are we going to play word games. You know very well what temple. I know it was partially destroyed in 70 A.D. but taht is still God's Favorite place. Right there in Jerusalem.
The temple WAS NOT PARTIALLY destroyed. It was thrown down - every stone - just as Jesus prophesied. All that's left is the mount.
So where does the antichrist sitteth?
So what does the abomination desolate?
LOL NO not hardly. Do you know what it means to not have one stone left standing upon another?? It means it will be turned into sand!!!
The walls are still standing.
I've seen people go through preposterous machinations to try to make a false doctrine work, but I've never seen the likes of that. I suspect you may be the only person on earth that doesn't recognize the temple was removed - every stone.
Sorry my friend but the dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa mosque are the only two things standing on the temple mount.
If there were remnants of walls standing, are you saying the antichrist would be sitting on the temple mount in among a ruin?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 09:25:38 PMIt has not been destroyed as it will be destroyed like Christ was talking about.
I knew for the last several post you were trying to get me to say he would be sitting in the Mosque. LOL
LOL Your going to have to get up a little earlier than that to get me.
Not at all.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 09:40:40 PM
And NO I am not the only one that says that. MANY MANY good Christian Scholars say the same. You do know that the "Jews" are doing their best to get that temple rebuilt don't you? It turns out after many years of surveying they say the Temple was ......
"was" being the operative word. Just like I said, it was removed, every stone.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 09:40:40 PM....... actually situated to the north of the Mosque and could be built without destroying the Mosque.
Here a little bit ago you were trying to say walls were partially standing, and now you admit that it was so completely removed that there are differences of opinion as to where it stood.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 09:40:40 PMAlthough I am not sure if they will actually build it or not. And of course they will have the full support of Christians like your self. That means the support of the US military if needs be.
My friend, it is futurist Christians like you and Hagee that are expecting a rebuilt temple.
Christians like me recognize that Jesus rebuilt the temple just as He promised.
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21
But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
So as you can see, the only place we should be looking for "that man of sin" to "sitteth" is in THE temple of God - the corporate body of Christ.
And even in an individual.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm
No not at all. You are. I don't know if you started from the beginning of the thread but you really should if you didn't.
As far as the it. I gave the different examples of that. The man of sin the son of perdition. That is satan. Perdition means to perish and Satan is the only one that has been Judged. There for it could be no other!
QuoteHere a little bit ago you were trying to say walls were partially standing, and now you admit that it was so completely removed that there are differences of opinion as to where it stood.
The walls are standing! LOL
You can turn on the news just about any day of the week and see the Jews praying at it! Why do you think they pray there and what do you think that wall is?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 09:59:33 PM
QuoteHere a little bit ago you were trying to say walls were partially standing, and now you admit that it was so completely removed that there are differences of opinion as to where it stood.
The walls are standing! LOL
You can turn on the news just about any day of the week and see the Jews praying at it!
As I corrected you earlier, that is the temple mount, not the temple.
Or are you saying that the antichrist will remove a couple of those big stones from the side, dig out the dirt and set up shop inside the temple mount and defile that?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 09:59:33 PMWhy do you think they pray there and what do you think that wall is?
It is the temple MOUNT. If any part of the temple were still standing, how come there is disagreement about where it WAS located?
Now you said it was the abomination that Jesus said was spoken of by the prophet Daniel, yet Daniel's abomination is an "it" that "stands" in the holy place.
But your antichrist abomination "sitteth" in the temple of God.
That is what Marturian was pointing out.
Look Pete. Get to the point here. If you wanted me to come to convert me your wasting your time. The Rock I stand on is unshakable!
If you brought me here to try to stump me. Good Luck. You might get me on a point or two. Overall your theology is wrong. I love to discuss the word but all this is. is an argument. So what are you getting at. I have proven in the word Muhammad is NOT THE false prophet. Is he A false prophet yes but like you said there are many of those. But not the one spoken of in Rev. Oh and the Second Beast IS the false Prophet. The First Beast of Rev 13 is The NWO (false Zionism). It is their new tower of Babylon. Why is that so hard for you to get? Is it yet future. Definitely!
Quote from: Peter on March 17, 2012, 10:05:50 PM
Now you said it was the abomination that Jesus said was spoken of by the prophet Daniel, yet Daniel's abomination is an "it" that "stands" in the holy place.
But your antichrist abomination "sitteth" in the temple of God.
That is what Marturian was pointing out.
Yes and I explained it. Some of this has to do with translation. I am a KJ man but you guys do know it is a translation right?
Many scholars translated Mat24 HE! Standing where HE ought not!
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 10:07:11 PM
Look Pete. Get to the point here. If you wanted me to come to convert me your wasting your time. The Rock I stand on is unshakable!
If you brought me here to try to stump me. Good Luck. You might get me on a point or two. Overall your theology is wrong. I love to discuss the word but all this is. is an argument. So what are you getting at. I have proven in the word Muhammad is NOT THE false prophet. Is he A false prophet yes but like you said there are many of those. But not the one spoken of in Rev. Oh and the Second Beast IS the false Prophet. The First Beast of Rev 13 is The NWO (false Zionism). It is their new tower of Babylon. Why is that so hard for you to get? Is it yet future. Definitely!
Doesn't the inspired word of God ttell us beasts are kingdoms? Hasn't history proven God's word true and that beasts are kingdoms? Wasn't Daniels lion beast Babylon, the bear Medo=Persia and the leopard Greece? Can you show us where God's inspired word changed that definition?
Here is another place Daniel talked about "IT".
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 10:07:11 PM
Look Pete. Get to the point here. If you wanted me to come to convert me your wasting your time. The Rock I stand on is unshakable!
If you brought me here to try to stump me. Good Luck. You might get me on a point or two. Overall your theology is wrong. I love to discuss the word but all this is. is an argument. So what are you getting at.
I already did way back in this post.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3128.msg12911#msg12911
The ONLY temple of God in the Christian era is the corporate body of Christ and perhaps individual Christians. Period.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 10:07:11 PMI have proven in the word Muhammad is NOT THE false prophet.
How did you "prove" something like that when you didn't even know where the temple of God is?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 10:07:11 PMIs he A false prophet yes but like you said there are many of those. But not the one spoken of in Rev. Oh and the Second Beast IS the false Prophet. The First Beast of Rev 13 is The NWO (false Zionism). It is their new tower of Babylon. Why is that so hard for you to get? Is it yet future. Definitely!
Just like Hagee you believe in:
1. A future tribulation (even though John is my companion in THE tribulation (you will find the definite article "THE" in the Greek).
2. A future antichrist
3. A future false prophet
4. A future role for a physical temple in Jerusalem.
My friend, you may not want to admit that your eschatology springs from John Nelson Darby's, but if that's the case, why do you suppose it is that you share so many fundamentals in common with futurists/dispensationalists?
Quote from: Marturion on March 17, 2012, 10:12:42 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 10:07:11 PM
Look Pete. Get to the point here. If you wanted me to come to convert me your wasting your time. The Rock I stand on is unshakable!
If you brought me here to try to stump me. Good Luck. You might get me on a point or two. Overall your theology is wrong. I love to discuss the word but all this is. is an argument. So what are you getting at. I have proven in the word Muhammad is NOT THE false prophet. Is he A false prophet yes but like you said there are many of those. But not the one spoken of in Rev. Oh and the Second Beast IS the false Prophet. The First Beast of Rev 13 is The NWO (false Zionism). It is their new tower of Babylon. Why is that so hard for you to get? Is it yet future. Definitely!
Doesn't the inspired word of God ttell us beasts are kingdoms? Hasn't history proven God's word true and that beasts are kingdoms? Wasn't Daniels lion beast Babylon, the bear Medo=Persia and the leopard Greece? Can you show us where God's inspired word changed that definition?
Yep you are correct. But we also must take everything in context!
Revelation 13:
11Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. 12He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. 14Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
That is the Anti-Christ/False Prophet! Seems pretty straight forward to me.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 10:22:30 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 17, 2012, 10:12:42 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 10:07:11 PM
Look Pete. Get to the point here. If you wanted me to come to convert me your wasting your time. The Rock I stand on is unshakable!
If you brought me here to try to stump me. Good Luck. You might get me on a point or two. Overall your theology is wrong. I love to discuss the word but all this is. is an argument. So what are you getting at. I have proven in the word Muhammad is NOT THE false prophet. Is he A false prophet yes but like you said there are many of those. But not the one spoken of in Rev. Oh and the Second Beast IS the false Prophet. The First Beast of Rev 13 is The NWO (false Zionism). It is their new tower of Babylon. Why is that so hard for you to get? Is it yet future. Definitely!
Doesn't the inspired word of God ttell us beasts are kingdoms? Hasn't history proven God's word true and that beasts are kingdoms? Wasn't Daniels lion beast Babylon, the bear Medo=Persia and the leopard Greece? Can you show us where God's inspired word changed that definition?
Yep you are correct. But we also must take everything in context!
Revelation 13:
11Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. 12He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. 14Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
That is the Anti-Christ/False Prophet! Seems pretty straight forward to me.
The false prophet isn't a kingdom "beast". Prophet is always defined as an individual.
If it did what does the false prophet have to do with a lion, bear and leopard?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 10:22:30 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 17, 2012, 10:12:42 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 10:07:11 PM
Look Pete. Get to the point here. If you wanted me to come to convert me your wasting your time. The Rock I stand on is unshakable!
If you brought me here to try to stump me. Good Luck. You might get me on a point or two. Overall your theology is wrong. I love to discuss the word but all this is. is an argument. So what are you getting at. I have proven in the word Muhammad is NOT THE false prophet. Is he A false prophet yes but like you said there are many of those. But not the one spoken of in Rev. Oh and the Second Beast IS the false Prophet. The First Beast of Rev 13 is The NWO (false Zionism). It is their new tower of Babylon. Why is that so hard for you to get? Is it yet future. Definitely!
Doesn't the inspired word of God ttell us beasts are kingdoms? Hasn't history proven God's word true and that beasts are kingdoms? Wasn't Daniels lion beast Babylon, the bear Medo=Persia and the leopard Greece? Can you show us where God's inspired word changed that definition?
Yep you are correct. But we also must take everything in context!
Revelation 13:
11Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. 12He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. 14Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
That is the Anti-Christ/False Prophet! Seems pretty straight forward to me.
And who/what do you think is the beast from Rev13:2? If beasts have always been kingdoms in fulfilled prophecy then why would God change that in Rev? Doesn't John tell us the Word was God?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Isn't God unchanging?
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not;....
So if a beast was a kingdom in Daniel then shouldn't it be a kingdom in Rev? Did the Word/God change or is it the doctrine of men that changes it?
QuoteJust like Hagee you believe in:
1. A future tribulation (even though John is my companion in THE tribulation (you will find the definite article "THE" in the Greek).
2. A future antichrist
3. A future false prophet
4. A future role for a physical temple in Jerusalem.
My friend, you may not want to admit that your eschatology springs from John Nelson Darby's, but if that's the case, why do you suppose it is that you share so many fundamentals in common with futurists/dispensationalists?
LOL Hagee?? Don't put me in with him you are DEAD wrong again.
He believes in a pre-trib rapture! I DO NOT!
What you teach is just as dangerous as what he teaches.
You teach the same pretty much just backwards from what he teaches.
Believe it or not I have NEVER read or heard any of Darby's teachings. I think you hear some small similarity and assume the rest.
Here is how I proved Muhammad is NOT the false prophet.
You said the second beast of Rev is Not the false prophet. Well I'm with your friend. The word defines it's self.
Rev 19:20 (KJV) "And the beast was taken,
and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
Do you see that?? The second beast IS the false prophet. It really is that simple.
May be I should have added scripture in with the last post.
Rev 13:11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
I accidentally post NIV from the internet last time sorry. I don't use that version nor would I.
I am sleepy maybe we will do this some more tomorrow!
By the way Pete. You never did answer my question about your quote. Most don't understand what it means. I want to hear your thoughts on it's meaning.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 10:31:29 PM
QuoteJust like Hagee you believe in:
1. A future tribulation (even though John is my companion in THE tribulation (you will find the definite article "THE" in the Greek).
2. A future antichrist
3. A future false prophet
4. A future role for a physical temple in Jerusalem.
My friend, you may not want to admit that your eschatology springs from John Nelson Darby's, but if that's the case, why do you suppose it is that you share so many fundamentals in common with futurists/dispensationalists?
LOL Hagee?? Don't put me in with him you are DEAD wrong again.
He believes in a pre-trib rapture!
That's not a fundamental of futurism. That was an added frill thanks to Margaret MacDonald. There are lots of futurists that don't believe in a pre-trib rapture.
Yet outside of the minor detail of the length of the tribulation, you share Hagee's eschatology to the T.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 10:31:29 PMI DO NOT!
What you teach is just as dangerous as what he teaches.
You teach the same pretty much just backwards from what he teaches.
No. Pretty much the opposite of what you and Hagee teach, is preterism.
They believe that virtually all of Revelation was fulfilled in, and by, 70 AD and the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
My view is the TRADITIONAL continuous-historic context that ALL Jews and Christians understand Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled in, and what the Reformers understood New Testament prophecy and the book of Revelation was being fulfilled in. It was only 20th century pop doctrines like you hold that differ from it.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm
Perhaps worst of all is your abuse of prophecy as if it were intended for you to use it to predict the future.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 10:31:29 PMBelieve it or not I have NEVER read or heard any of Darby's teachings. I think you hear some small similarity and assume the rest.
You couldn't have come up with it on your own, because you can't make any more sense of it than Hagee could, if I were engaged in the same conversation with him.
Indeed I think it is at least borderline blasphemy for a Christian not to recognize themselves and the corporate body of Christ to be THE ONLY temples of God in the Christian era.
To suggest that any temple that did get rebuilt, could be desolated, would be to suggest that it could be sanctified in the first place. But it couldn't because JESUS ALREADY REBUILT THE TEMPLE OF GOD.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 10:31:29 PM
Here is how I proved Muhammad is NOT the false prophet.
You said the second beast of Rev is Not the false prophet. Well I'm with your friend. The word defines it's self.
Rev 19:20 (KJV) "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
Do you see that?? The second beast IS the false prophet. It really is that simple.
Read it again. I enlarged the font to help you out.
Two separate entities. The beast (Muhammad's followers - his "kingdom") and the false prophet (Muhammad).
LOL. Your wrong about my belief and Hagee. I really don't know Darby's work. Sorry. And as far as the Second beast being the fasle Prophet. There are TWO entities specifically in Rev 13 and then in the Verse I quoted. WITH HIM yes... that done all the things (miracles) the second beast did.... DID you catch that?? This is beyond theology guys. This has become about reading comprehension skills! I have to go to bed. I will talk to you guys tomorrow. One more thing Pete. We can disagree and still be friends. However just because you don't agree don't mean you should throw insults like Blasphemy around at me. I have not said it. But I think to not be able to see the FUTURE false Christ is to already have the mark of the Beast. In other words you believe the LIE. By the way. If you think the majority of Rev has already happened. What was the Mark of the Beast. Many great scholars have tried to figure that one out for 2000 years. I guess they should have just ask you huh?
LOL
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 10:31:29 PM
QuoteJust like Hagee you believe in:
1. A future tribulation (even though John is my companion in THE tribulation (you will find the definite article "THE" in the Greek).
2. A future antichrist
3. A future false prophet
4. A future role for a physical temple in Jerusalem.
My friend, you may not want to admit that your eschatology springs from John Nelson Darby's, but if that's the case, why do you suppose it is that you share so many fundamentals in common with futurists/dispensationalists?
LOL Hagee?? Don't put me in with him you are DEAD wrong again.
He believes in a pre-trib rapture! I DO NOT!
What you teach is just as dangerous as what he teaches.
You teach the same pretty much just backwards from what he teaches.
Believe it or not I have NEVER read or heard any of Darby's teachings. I think you hear some small similarity and assume the rest.
Here is how I proved Muhammad is NOT the false prophet.
You said the second beast of Rev is Not the false prophet. Well I'm with your friend. The word defines it's self.
Rev 19:20 (KJV) "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
Do you see that?? The second beast IS the false prophet. It really is that simple.
I asked earlier if you could show where the definition of a beast changed. If you are referring to me when you said "Well I'm with your friend." then you have misunderstood me. I believe boh beasts in Rev13 (the one from the sea and the one from the earth) are kingdoms. 2 separate kingdoms, but both are still kingdoms.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 11:01:15 PM
LOL. Your wrong about my belief and Hagee. I really don't know Darby's work.
I even numbered them for you. You are a futurist like Darby and Hagee. You Darby and Hagee believe in
1. A future tribulation (even though John is my companion in THE tribulation (you will find the definite article "THE" in the Greek).
2. A future antichrist
3. A future false prophet
4. A future role of a physical temple in Jerusalem.
You Darby and Hagee believe that prophecy was intended for us to predict the future. I'm in the Isaac Newton and Matthew Henry camp on that one.
"
The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence." - Sir Isaac Newton
The difference between you and them is that you were so busy dividing people up by race, like Hitler before you, that you never stopped long enough to understand what a Jew is in this Christian era. As a grafted in Jew, Israel is
my land along with faithful ethnic Jews.
Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8
And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger,
all the land of Canaan, for an
everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 11:01:15 PMSorry. And as far as the Second beast being the fasle Prophet. There are TWO entities specifically in Rev 13 and then in the Verse I quoted.
Yes there are. In Revelation 13 they are both kingdom "beasts".
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/leopard_bear_lion_beast.htm#two_horned_beast
In the second case there is a kingdom "beast" and a false prophet.
the
false prophetNew Testament Greek Definition:
5578 pseudoprophetes {psyoo-dop-rof-ay'-tace}
from 5571 and 4396; TDNT - 6:781,952; n m
AV -
false prophet 11; 111) one who, acting the part of a divinely inspired prophet, utters
falsehoods under the name of divine prophecies
2) a false prophet
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 11:01:15 PMWITH HIM yes... that done all the things (miracles) the second beast did.... DID you catch that??
Ya I did. If you were familiar with the Koine Greek word translated as "miracles" in this verse you would understand that Muhammad's Quran is a perfect fit.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/islam__quran_and_666.htm#the_tragedy
miraclesNew Testament Greek Definition:
4592
semeion {say-mi'-on}
from a presumed derivative of the base of 4591; TDNT - 7:200,1015; n n
AV - sign 50, miracle 23, wonder 3, token 1; 77
1) a sign, mark, token
1a)
that by which a person or a thing is distinguished from others and is known1b) a sign, prodigy, portent, i.e. an unusual occurrence,
transcending the common course of nature
1b1) of signs portending remarkable events soon to happen
1b2) of miracles and wonders by which God authenticates the men
sent by him, or by which men prove that the cause they are
pleading is God's
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/islam__quran_and_666.htm#the_tragedy
Let alone that one Islamic cult is providing a warning to Jews, Christians AND Muslims, by proclaiming 666 to be their holy number. Try this link.
http://www.66619.org/thequran.htm
"The number 666 is highly publicized all over the world and it is associated with evil and danger.
However, it is not what it seems. It was a Satanic trick.
The trick was to prevent the people approaching the 666.
Satan knew that the 666 is the book of GOD and the people should be kept away from it.
According to his plan, he placed a bad image to the number 666."
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 11:01:15 PMThis is beyond theology guys. This has become about reading comprehension skills!
Indeed it has. But the bible wasn't revealed in English but in Koine Greek. (By the way, which bible translation are you quoting from? If you had used the KJV you may not have wandered so far astray.)
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=81.msg203#msg203
OK now try to read and comprehend
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm
(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Revelation 1:9 | egw <1473> {I} iwannhV <2491> {JOHN,} o <3588> {WHO} kai <2532> {ALSO} adelfoV <80> {BROTHER} umwn <5216> {YOUR} kai <2532> {AND} sugkoinwnoV <4791> {FELLOW PARTAKER} en <1722> {IN} th <3588> {
THE} qliyei <2347> {TRIBULATION} kai <2532> {AND} en <1722> {IN} th <3588> {THE} basileia <932> {KINGDOM} kai <2532> {AND} upomonh <5281> {ENDURANCE} ihsou <2424> {OF JESUS} cristou <5547> {CHRIST,}....
Definite article
THE. The same tribulation John was in.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm#judah
There is a more intense period indicated within it though, peaking with 8 million Jews marched like lambs to the slaughter by Hitler and
the Islamic Mufti of Jerusalem enjoining Muslims, with the shared goal of genocide of Jews, including 2 Islamic panzer divisions in Hitler's army. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sk3fKY9PhY (or do you deny the holocaust along with the other anti-zionists you run with like Ahmadenijhad?)
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#times_gentiles
(http://www.petewaldo.com/119f44d0.jpg)
(http://www.petewaldo.com/118f46c0.jpg)
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 11:01:15 PMI have to go to bed. I will talk to you guys tomorrow. One more thing Pete. We can disagree and still be friends. However just because you don't agree don't mean you should throw insults like Blasphemy around at me. I have not said it.
When you degrade the price that you know Jesus paid on the cross - His finished work - by recognizing other than THE ONLY temple of God in the Christian era - the body of Christ - particularly if suggesting that any other physical temple on earth could be desolated, I think you need to be really concerned.
I called it "borderline" blasphemy because I know you did it through ignorance. If you continue to do it in full knowledge of where you know the ONE temple is, in the Christian era, what would you call it?
Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
The single concept of the "temple of God" relegates your whole (in your case uniquely embellished) futurist idea, to the dustbin of false doctrine.
There's ONE PLACE we need to be on guard for "that man of sin" in the Christian era.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/man_of_sin.htm
And the more I have engaged anti-zionists in YouTube, the more I have been drawn to ponder the "synagogue of satan", and "that man of sin" that sitteth in the temple of God.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 11:01:15 PMBut I think to not be able to see the FUTURE false Christ is to already have the mark of the Beast. In other words you believe the LIE.
No, I understand, as scholars do, that bible prophecy is ethnographic. So when John speaks of
his "whole world" I understand it isn't about Peoria Illinois, but about the Holy Land and surrounding lands
as John knew the world.
Strong's explains: 3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay} 1) the inhabited earth 1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians 1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
What does John's whole world look like today?
(http://www.beholdthebeast.com/1f5a3aa0.png)
As we can see, virtually John's whole world has already received the name of the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic "beast" kingdom, as they are Islamic. They must reject the Son of God and His crucifixion.
Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark,
or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
The most devout among Muhammad's antichrists even marked physically from praying in the "vain repetitions of the heathen" 5 times a day!
(http://www.beholdthebeast.com/2a12cbb0.jpg)
But you're waiting around for some future boogieman, while there are 1.5 billion antichrists in Islam alone.
You're so busy attacking Jews you can't even see that you've taken the Islamic beast's side in regard to MY land of Israel. And make no mistake there are only two sides.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2984.0
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 11:01:15 PMBy the way. If you think the majority of Rev has already happened. What was the Mark of the Beast. Many great scholars have tried to figure that one out for 2000 years. I guess they should have just ask you huh?
LOL
What is the seal of God in Christians foreheads? A different microchip?
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not
the seal of God in their foreheads.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mark_of_the_beast.htm
Anti-zionists want to pretend that Muhammadans are different now than they were a hundred years ago, because of Zionism, but that simply isn't so. They have been the same for 1400 years because they have always been antichrists, indoctrinated by THE false prophet Muhammad not into what to believe, but specifically to DISbelieve the whole subject of the Gospel. To DENY the Son of God and REJECT the blood that would save them. How many religions do you know of that are specifically anti-another religion directly from the books they go by? A the negative is to a photograph? No surprise that their goal has always been the conquest of all the kingdoms of the world - Satan's kingdoms - and subjugation of all people to Muhammad's followers. To Satan's followers. I've shown you through their books, that fighting and slaying non-muslims is binding on all true followers of Muhammad - in the Quran.
If you think the Jews spoiled the Muslims as your fellow anti-zionists do, here's how Winston Churchill weighed in on Muhammad's followers about 112 years ago.
“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live…The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities…but the influence of the religion paralyzes the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa…and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.†- by Sir Winston Churchill - The River War, Vol. II, pp. 248-50, London; Longman, Green & Co., 1899
Quite prophetic words as we watched the dechristianization and secularization of Europe, with Islam handily filling the vacuum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlG75wb7lLw
Here's how Islam Spreads
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9WbSCsi1eU
Here are the demographics you need to see regarding 1/4 of mankind - 1.5 billion people - as opposed to your fear of 0.2% of the world's population that are ethnic Jews.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 05:18:10 PMYou must be part of the any moment crowd? i.e. Jesus could return at any moment.
Of course I am. Here's why.
2Pe 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
What about those that proclaim that Jesus delays His coming? Those that say "Jesus can't come yet because the temple isn't rebuilt" or "Jesus can't come yet because the future boogieman/antichrist hasn't arrived on the scene" or "Jesus can't come yet because the future false prophet hasn't come and converted 1.5 billion Muslims from the false prophet Muhammad, to some other, future, false prophet not yet revealed"
What about those that say that Jesus delays His return because they are looking for a boogieman instead of looking for Jesus?
Mat 24:48 But
and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50
The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
How do you suppose that bodes for those that support Hamas, at the expense of Yahweh's servants?
You said that you believe that Jerusalem, and the temple mount, still have significance for Jesus. What would you call a building - that is an "IT" not a he...
Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
...that "STANDS" on the temple mount - in the holy place - just as Jesus said the AoD would ..........
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/abomination_of_desolation.htm
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#daniel_1290_days), stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
Strong's - stand
New Testament Greek Definition:
2476 histemi {his'-tay-mee}
a prolonged form of a primary stao {stah'-o} (of the same
meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); TDNT - 7:638,1082; v
AV - stand 116, set 11, establish 5, stand still 4, stand by 3,
misc 17, vr stand 2; 158
1) to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set
1a) to bid to stand by, [set up]
1a1) in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges,
before members of the Sanhedrin;
1a2) to place
1b) to make firm, fix establish
1b1) to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place
1b2) to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape
in safety
1b3) to establish a thing, cause it to stand
1b31) to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything
1c) to set or place in a balance
1c1) to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before
the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed)
2) to stand
2a) to stand by or near
2a1) to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm
2a1a) of the foundation of a building
etc. etc.
....and what if all around the outside eave of that building in Mosaic, and all around the inside, and in plaques at the portals, were written founding verses like:
"The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a Messenger of Allah, and His Word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not 'Three' - Cease! (it is) NE better for you! - Allah is only One God. Far be it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son."
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:
Continuing on in the words of that abomination "We believe in God and that which was revealed unto Muhammad and that which the Prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him"
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/copper.html
You see, Muslims are not allowed to make a distinction between Jesus, the sinless Messiah, the Lamb of God - or any of the prophets in scripture - from the false prophet Muhammad who their own books reveal as a mass murdering (http://www.petewaldo.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm), female prisoner abusing (http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=coitus&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all), lying (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=952.0), oath breaking (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=950.0), child doing (http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=aisha+nine+years&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all), self-admitted terrorist (http://www.searchtruth.com/search.php?keyword=terror&chapter=&translator=2&search=1&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all) and murderous (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1573.0), thief (http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=booty&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all).
Is it safe to say you would you call that AN abomination?
(http://www.beholdthebeast.com/16ca4190.jpg)
Here are a few math problems in prophecy that pin its founding date:
1260 days, 42 months, and 1290 days. Please click on the link.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#revelation_1260_days
Ah but you're too busy chasing boogiemen, to stop even for a moment, and consider how terribly wrong you could be, aren't you? Too busy dissing Jews and siding with Hamas and anti-zionist Nazis, skinheads, Muslims, Soviets and the KKK & David Duke.
It is Jerusalem that was desolated through 1200 years of Islamization, and by the early 1800's was rendered a physically and spiritually desolated, treeless desert wasteland with the population reduced to just 550.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2982.0
Fulfilled, just as was prophesied.
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains...
You need to repent my friend, and quit chasing boogiemen, instead of awaiting the coming of our blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Enough bible prophecy has been fulfilled to herald His coming TODAY. Do you really want to be joined with Muslims in coming against Yahweh's people when Jesus returns? What if you die of an aneurism this very day? Which side will He find you on?
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
The side advancing the freedom, independence, self-determination and rule of Yahweh's people in the land He gave us - including some of the most innovative and productive people in the world.
Or the side of the Islamic antichrists that you yourself admit were better off being ruled by iron-fisted, murderous, maniacal dictators, than they are now that the MAJORITY of the CITIZENS in all of the countries in this "Arab Spring" - in this so-called "democratization" of these countries of the Middle East - elect the Muslim Brotherhood and internationally recognized terrorist organizations like Hamas to run the show?
The side of unproductive sloth, whose primary export is terrorism and whose domestic product is indoctrinating their children into hating Jews. Whose sole asperation is "death for Allah" - that is dying while slaughtering Yahweh's people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4d9HPw4a_k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhbHVEGnYD8
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=islam+indoctrination+children&oq=islam+indoctrination+children&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=3&gs_upl=164l3587l0l3817l21l21l0l0l0l0l222l2185l6.14.1l21l0
Jesus will find you on the side of those that are working hard to turn Israel into just another sharia law ruled, female circumcising, child doing, wife beating, Christian beheading, Islamic terrorist, slave state.
Verse by verse Revelation 13
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/leopard_bear_lion_beast.htm
Verse by verse Olivet Discourse
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm
QuoteWhen you degrade the price that you know Jesus paid on the cross - His finished work - by recognizing other than THE ONLY temple of God in the Christian era - the body of Christ - particularly if suggesting that any other physical temple on earth could be desolated, I think you need to be really concerned.
I called it "borderline" blasphemy because I know you did it through ignorance. If you continue to do it in full knowledge of where you know the ONE temple is, in the Christian era, what would you call it?
Full Knowledge. Who's knowledge Pete.. YOURS???
Let me quote my self here..
QuoteYou do know that the "Jews" are doing their best to get that temple rebuilt don't you? It turns out after many years of surveying they say the Temple was actually situated to the north of the Mosque and could be built without destroying the Mosque. Although I am not sure if they will actually build it or not.
I know full well the body of Christ is the Church.
Like I said before reading Comprehension skills!!
I said nothing about the fact that they should nor it being a necessity. I said they (Jews) are doing their best to rebuild the temple. And I agree there is no need.
And as I said PAUL said he will stand in the Temple of God showing himself that he is god. You can deny that if you like but it is denying the inspired word of God! As I have stated from the beginning I deal only in truth. That truth being the word of God Not Pete’s truth nor Skolfeild. You however can believe what ever you like. I will do the same.
I ONLY and I do Mean ONLY use a King James version. However I realize it is a translation as you should and some things don't always carry through in the translation. I said I had accidentally posted from the NIV I would never use that version. It is why I reposted. Which version do you use The Skolfield??
Now back to the Second Beast in Revelation I see no need in reposting all of this again. The first beast is a political beast. The second is a religious beast. I hope we can at least agree on that. Then in Rev 16:13 19:20 20:10 Are ALL referring to the second Beast. If you don’t see that then you can not read. It is as simple as that. Why did the Lord put it like this? May be to give a side profile of what it is your looking at. But no matter the Second Beast IS BEYOND ANY DOUBT THE fasle prophet spoken of HERE in Rev!
OK Now MaRK 13 “itâ€
As I said before he is quoting Dan 9:27 and it is compared to 12:11
Lets read.
Daniel 9: 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Daniel 12: 11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 9 it is pretty clear we are talking about a HE not an IT. If you look that word up you will see that IT can be he she or it… it really depends on how it is being presented in context.
Set up does not necessarily mean propped up as you would suggest but brought to power.
Repent??? For repeating the word of God?
Any moment crowd. LOL
1 Thes 1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Maybe you should consider taking ALL the word into context! I think Paul is pretty clear about this. It will come as a theif because when the anti-christ comes YOU and other like you will accept him because you think he is Jesus. That is why Christ gave the warning.
Mat 24: 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Do you know what that means?? He is warning you not to be unfaithful. To be a virgin spiritually when he returns!!! THAT IS VERY IMPROTANT. If you follow after the first messiah that returns then well…
It will be as a theif when the true Christ returns. BECAUSE you think he is already here.
By the way the next verse in that passage is a warning of being harvested out of season!
Jesus is pretty plain about this.
THEN AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAY THEN will you see the son of Man coming with great power!!Understand
Brother Pete I think you need to repent! LOL
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 10:46:14 AM
QuoteWhen you degrade the price that you know Jesus paid on the cross - His finished work - by recognizing other than THE ONLY temple of God in the Christian era - the body of Christ - particularly if suggesting that any other physical temple on earth could be desolated, I think you need to be really concerned.
I called it "borderline" blasphemy because I know you did it through ignorance. If you continue to do it in full knowledge of where you know the ONE temple is, in the Christian era, what would you call it?
Full Knowledge. Who's knowledge Pete.. YOURS???
Let me quote my self here..
QuoteYou do know that the "Jews" are doing their best to get that temple rebuilt don't you? It turns out after many years of surveying they say the Temple was actually situated to the north of the Mosque and could be built without destroying the Mosque. Although I am not sure if they will actually build it or not.
I know full well the body of Christ is the Church.
Like I said before reading Comprehension skills!!
I said nothing about the fact that they should nor it being a necessity. I said they (Jews) are doing their best to rebuild the temple. And I agree there is no need.
And as I said PAUL said he will stand in the Temple of God showing himself that he is god.
Is that what Paul said?
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God
sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 10:46:14 AMYou can deny that if you like but it is denying the inspired word of God!
Yes, and words matter my friend. The AoD stands in the holy place, while that "man of sin" sitteth in the corporate body of Christ.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 10:46:14 AMAs I have stated from the beginning I deal only in truth. That truth being the word of God Not Pete’s truth nor Skolfeild. You however can believe what ever you like. I will do the same.
I ONLY and I do Mean ONLY use a King James version. However I realize it is a translation as you should and some things don't always carry through in the translation. I said I had accidentally posted from the NIV I would never use that version. It is why I reposted. Which version do you use The Skolfield??
That's funny! And Ironic too! The fellow of the 20th century annotated bible, most responsible for bringing John Darby's futurist heresy that you hold into the 20th century church's name was Cyrus S
cofield.
Ellis S
kolfield is the author of "The False Prophet", and has written about the role of Islam as the end-time enemy of God's people for over 30 years.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_great_detective.htm
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 10:46:14 AM
Now back to the Second Beast in Revelation I see no need in reposting all of this again.
That's right. No need. The location of the temple of God in the Christian era nullified your eschatology.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 10:46:14 AMThe first beast is a political beast. The second is a religious beast. I hope we can at least agree on that. Then in Rev 16:13 19:20 20:10 Are ALL referring to the second Beast. If you don’t see that then you can not read. It is as simple as that.
It isn't a children's book. It isn't as simple as that. That's why we have to stick with how the scriptures define things. And a beast is a kingdom in the figurative language of a dream or vision in prophecy, and a false prophet is a false prophet.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 10:46:14 AMWhy did the Lord put it like this?
He didn't. Your doctrine does.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 10:46:14 AMMay be to give a side profile of what it is your looking at. But no matter the Second Beast IS BEYOND ANY DOUBT THE fasle prophet spoken of HERE in Rev!
OK Now MaRK 13 “itâ€
As I said before he is quoting Dan 9:27 and it is compared to 12:11
Lets read.
Daniel 9: 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#daniel_70_weeks
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 10:46:14 AM
Daniel 12: 11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Daniel's 1290 "days"
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#daniel_1290_days
Is confirmed by John's 1260 days and 42 months in the day-year language of prophecy. Mathematically as well as textually.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#revelation_1260_days
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#court_without
1335 days
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#daniel_1335_days
But then if we run with the reformers and those of the "former age" it doesn't give us as good of an opportunity to beat on the Jews. Heck being persecuted while scattered among the nations for 2500 years wasn't near enough, was it.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 10:46:14 AM
Dan 9 it is pretty clear ........
Your suggestion that the most contentious passage in scripture is "clear", particularly from someone who holds a uniquely embellished version of Darby's futurism that folded like a house of cards on the temple of God, pretty much says it all.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 10:46:14 AM......... we are talking about a HE not an IT.
Indeed that passage is:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/69_weeks.htm
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 10:46:14 AMIf you look that word up you will see that IT can be he she or it… it really depends on how it is being presented in context.
But you didn't even resolve the conflict in your two passages where the AoD "sitteth" in one and "stands" in another.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 10:46:14 AM
Set up does not necessarily mean propped up as you would suggest but brought to power.
Repent??? For repeating the word of God?
For suggesting that a physical temple on earth could be desolated,
when it would rendered desolate (2,000 years ago)
before the first stone would ever laid.Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 10:46:14 AM
Any moment crowd. LOL
1 Thes 1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Maybe you should consider taking ALL the word into context! I think Paul is pretty clear about this. It will come as a theif because when the anti-christ comes YOU and other like you will accept him because you think he is Jesus. That is why Christ gave the warning.
Mat 24: 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Do you know what that means?? He is warning you not to be unfaithful. To be a virgin spiritually when he returns!!! THAT IS VERY IMPROTANT. If you follow after the first messiah that returns then well…
That's the one you and the Muslims are looking for. Yet it won't even give you pause to wonder hat Darby's prophecy suggests a "The" "Antichrist" figure just as the false prophet Muhammad's prophecy does?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 10:46:14 AM
It will be as a theif when the true Christ returns. BECAUSE you think he is already here.
By the way the next verse in that passage is a warning of being harvested out of season!
Jesus is pretty plain about this.
THEN AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAY THEN will you see the son of Man coming with great power!!Understand
So sad that it has made you so blind to the suffering of our brothers and sisters around the world, that you took sides with their oppressors.
www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 10:46:14 AM
Brother Pete I think you need to repent! LOL
Did it ever occur to you to write that mess down that you hold? Back when I was a futurist I started writing about Darby's doctrine I wound up with more questions than answers.
It would be a good exercise for you if you haven't.
If you have perhaps you can share it with us so we can all exegete it together.
I just browsed over your Olivet discourse and went to 24:19 You skipped a few verse then just made something up to fit YOUR way of thinking. Which by the way is wrong. LOL Will the Muslim play there part in this end time scenario YES but not like you say they will. Did you happen to notice how long it took us to subdue Iraq by any chance? LOL
Quote
Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Even beyond Judea these instructions would aptly apply to all of the fallen cities and states where Christians and Jews were slaughtered and enslaved by Muslims during the rape, pillage and plunder of the 152 years (5 prophetic months) of the imperialistic Islamic first Jihad conquest of nearly the whole world, until stopped in Tours France by Charles Martel in the Battle of Tours.
The following report was chronicled near the zenith of the First Jihad as the Islamic armies moved up through Europe ".... according to one unidentified Arab, 'That army went through all places like a desolating storm.' sacking and capturing the city of Bordeaux, and then defeating the army of Duke Odo of Aquitaine at the Battle of the River Garonne - where the western chroniclers state, 'God alone knows the number of the slain'-[3] and Odo fled to Charles Martel, seeking help." Link
(link to this spot)
LOL I answered the other verses in my last post
These....
Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Are a since of urgency. What Christ is saying is when you see these things the end is that close, (that "END" being his return)
and you want need to turn back for anything. That would also disprove your theory about all these things having already happened.
Why don't you share with us what you would like for Israel?
As much as your U.S. hat and curls guy would like to pretend that Jews and Muslims could live freely, side by side in the middle east, the difficulty is that Muslims don't seem to be able to do that anywhere in the world.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1143.msg4475#msg4475
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 12:59:42 PM
I just browsed over your Olivet discourse and went to 24:19 You skipped a few verse then just made something up to fit YOUR way of thinking. Which by the way is wrong. LOL Will the Muslim play there part in this end time scenario YES but not like you say they will. Did you happen to notice how long it took us to subdue Iraq by any chance? LOL
Quote
Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Even beyond Judea these instructions would aptly apply to all of the fallen cities and states where Christians and Jews were slaughtered and enslaved by Muslims during the rape, pillage and plunder of the 152 years (5 prophetic months) of the imperialistic Islamic first Jihad conquest of nearly the whole world, until stopped in Tours France by Charles Martel in the Battle of Tours.
The following report was chronicled near the zenith of the First Jihad as the Islamic armies moved up through Europe ".... according to one unidentified Arab, 'That army went through all places like a desolating storm.' sacking and capturing the city of Bordeaux, and then defeating the army of Duke Odo of Aquitaine at the Battle of the River Garonne - where the western chroniclers state, 'God alone knows the number of the slain'-[3] and Odo fled to Charles Martel, seeking help." Link
(link to this spot)
LOL I answered the other verses in my last post
These....
Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Are a since of urgency.
As in get the heck out of Dodge or your 9 year old daughter will get pressed into sexual service in the harem of some Muhammadan.
Bukhari:V5B59N459 "I entered the Mosque, saw Abu, sat beside him and asked about sex. Abu Said said, 'We went out with Allah's Apostle and we received female slaves from among the captives. We desired women and we loved to do coitus interruptus.'"
Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old. (Book #58, Hadith #236)
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 12:59:42 PMWhat Christ is saying is when you see these things the end is that close, (that "END" being his return)
and you want need to turn back for anything. That would also disprove your theory about all these things having already happened.
QuoteSo sad that it has made you so blind to the suffering of our brothers and sisters around the world, that you took sides with their oppressors.
www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm
The only thing that is sad is if their are more that believe like you do! And I have told you before about accusing. Lets not forget who is the accuser. It would appear you get mad because you don't understand and just accuse. I didn't take sides with any other than Christ!
Like I have said. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. This means ALL.
And let me ask you! What about the Christian Palestinians?? What of them. Not the Muslims but the Christians? Should we just disregard those because they do not say they are Jews?
And my mistake. I do not like Scofeild at all and I thought that is what you were referring to. So you have based your entire way of thinking on ONE mans BOOK which is Skolfeild? WOW Like I said I will trust the Lord you keep your book! But thank You for the clarification.
Also... As far as what Paul said "sitteth". My bad. Jesus said Stand Paul said sit!
Makes no matter they are still talking about the same thing.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 01:16:36 PM
QuoteSo sad that it has made you so blind to the suffering of our brothers and sisters around the world, that you took sides with their oppressors.
www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm
The only thing that is sad is if their are more that believe like you do! And I have told you before about accusing. Lets not forget who is the accuser. It would appear you get mad because you don't understand and just accuse.
You were the one that ignored virtually all of what I wrote - but no need to trouble yourself.
But to suggest I am mad would indicate that I am engaging in this chat for your benefit. I have chatted with enough anti-zionists to understand there is little point in that. Like this guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKTyvIh2rN4
I engage in discussion with you, for the benefit of those anti-zionists that have begun to understand the difficulty with taking the same side, that happens to also be taken by Nazis, skinheads, Muslims, Hamas, the KKK and David Duke, and that part of the "church" that includes the Presbyterian Church (leaders that championed Hezbollah), World Council Churches (try the word "marxist" after it in your search), New England Conference United Methodist Church, with Anglican and Episcopal churches having considered divestment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinvestment_from_Israel#Churches
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 01:16:36 PMI didn't take sides with any other than Christ!
Like I have said. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. This means ALL.
And let me ask you! What about the Christian Palestinians?? What of them. Not the Muslims but the Christians? Should we just disregard those because they do not say they are Jews?
And of course confirming the risk in taking the side of the the false prophet Muhammad's followers (that behead Christians in Islamic countries for sharing the Gospel).
"Palestinian Christians lived free under Israeli rule but now are being slaughtered and run out of of town by their fellow Palestinian Muslims."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaYmPmoIpS8&feature=player_embedded#!
http://barenakedislam.com/2009/01/12/palestinian-christians-suffer-under-palestinian-rule/
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 01:16:36 PMAnd my mistake. I do not like Scofeild at all and I thought that is what you were referring to. So you have based your entire way of thinking on ONE mans BOOK which is Skolfeild? WOW Like I said I will trust the Lord you keep your book!
That study is consistent with the Reformers and others "of the former age" while your heresy is consistent with John Nelson Darby's 19th century heresy which was a modified version of 15th century Roman Catholic Jesuit Manuel Ribera's futurism that he created in an anti-reformation effort.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/end_time_myth.htm
And how many share your uniquely embellished futurism?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 01:16:36 PMBut thank You for the clarification.
And to clarify one more thing for the last time. I don't think I was too clear on this before.
What I said about you quoting the Quran. What I am saying is YOU believe Muhammad is the false Prophet yet you quote him like it is the Gospel. If he were the false prophet which he is not. That would make him a liar. That is what the false prophet is!! Don't get me wrong here Muhammad is wrong but Not THE false prophet. It would be kind of like you quoting Satan as the Gospel truth. If you don't see the problem with that then you have more problems than I thought!
How can a Liar have any truth?
John 8:44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Why in the world would you take the word of a Liar as truth?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 01:41:06 PM
And to clarify one more thing for the last time. I don't think I was too clear on this before.
What I said about you quoting the Quran. What I am saying is YOU believe Muhammad is the false Prophet yet you quote him like it is the Gospel.
No, as you well know I quote him to show Islam ignorant people like you that Muhammad professed the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.
That the most egregious and only unpardonable sin in Muhammad's religion is committed when a Muslim confesses that Jesus is the Son of God.
And to show that Muhammad and his followers were among the blackest-hearted moral reprobates in the world.
I think with you mean is you wish is you had not come to learn the truth about Muhammadan Islam, because theirs is the side you have chosen when it comes to Israel.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 01:41:06 PMIf he were the false prophet which he is not. That would make him a liar. That is what the false prophet is!!
That's why we don't quote is
prophecy except to show it is false.
Yet you are eagerly awaiting your John Darby boogieman, just as Muslims are waiting for Muhammad's future boogeyman, because they believe Muhammad's prophecy.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 01:41:06 PMDon't get me wrong here Muhammad is wrong but Not THE false prophet. It would be kind of like you quoting Satan as the Gospel truth.
I guess you didn't realize this, but when I quote the Quran I am quoting Satan. But to illustrate that it is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the truth.
But since you don't want to see that, I understand your confusion.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 01:41:06 PMIf you don't see the problem with that then you have more problems than I thought!
How can a Liar have any truth?
John 8:44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Why in the world would you take the word of a Liar as truth?
I don't other than to show how their own words incriminate them. Yet you effectively consider Muhammad to be a prophet because he called for a boogieman too. You don't have to look far on YouTube to find an abundance of Christians that actually use Muhammad's prophecy as support for Darby's "The" "Antichrist".
Your ignorance to Islam, is how you wound up running with Muhammad's followers, against the Israelis.
Also I had to go and look this up because you kept accusing me of following Darby. Which I do not even know. LOL
However I think I may see YOUR confusion now. Is it the use of the word Rapture??
If so then I apologize. I do not like that word either. I ONLY use it because if you say the Gathering unto Christ the unlearned look at you like your crazy. Most everybody understands the word Rapture as the gathering. However FEW understand it is his second coming.
Most think of a rapture THEN the second coming later. LOL Which is why I keep warning you of the way you teach. It is THE SAME just backwards. I think the SDA teaches kinda the same thing.
Anyhow I went and Googled it and this is what I found on one site about his belief.
QuoteOrigins of the Rapture
The Rapture seems to have been invented by a British religious figure named John Nelson Darby (1800-1882). He was ordained in the Church of Ireland and worked there to convert Catholics away from their folly. He was extremely pessimistic about what he saw as the state of the world and the state of the Church. He eventually left it, joining a dissident group called the Plymouth Brethren of which he soon became a prominent leader.
About 1830, he began teaching that Jesus’ coming at the end of time would be preceded by a “rapture of the saints.†Some members of his own Brethren community objected that this was not biblicaly founded, but Darby dismissed any criticism. It had, he claimed, been revealed to him by God.
That is just a small part of it. I can tell you beyond any doubt you are dead wrong! I do not believe what is in the above statement.
I am still reading it. LOL it would appear that scofield used some of Darbys teachings. LOL and You think I think like that> ROTF
I have nothing to do with the Scofield.
Anyhow as I said YES we will gather unto the Lord. He will return to the mount of Olives and the second advent and not a day before.
That is nothing like I have seen of Darby. So Wrong again.
Did you know it also says he converted to Judaism later in life!
QuoteYour ignorance to Islam, is how you wound up running with Muhammad's followers, against the Israelis.
I don't "run against Israelis" Just those that say they are Jews and do lie but are of the synagogue of Satan!
I don't know why that is so hard for you to get.
As stated MANY times now. I love our brother Judah. And the other 11 tribes.
You really don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. Just assuming.
I don't need to know what the Muslim faith believes. Just my God!
You keep your Quran! and Ellis Skolfield. I will take the Bible! LOL
May be you could explain Rev 2:9 and 3:9 for me. I mean being I am so ignorant and all!
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 01:41:06 PM
And to clarify one more thing for the last time. I don't think I was too clear on this before.
What I said about you quoting the Quran. What I am saying is YOU believe Muhammad is the false Prophet yet you quote him like it is the Gospel. If he were the false prophet which he is not. That would make him a liar. That is what the false prophet is!!
And if we didn't investigate what he said we would just have to depend on the Muslims saying "We believe in Jesus and all the prophets"
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2714.0
What reason would you have to doubt them? Indeed perhaps you believed them before you learned a little more about WHAT MUHAMMAD SAID which is what the ENEMIES OF NON-MUSLIMS BELIEVE.
But when we can see WHAT THEY REALLY BELIEVE which is WHAT THE FALSE PROPHET WROTE only then can we judge that Muhammad was false prophet.
Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
That is what the lying antichrist said. So now we don't have to take his poor deluded followers word for it - who actually believe they believe in Jesus and all the prophets - but now we can discern that they believe the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.
I can inform Islam ignorant people like you, that take Muhammad's followers side against the Israelis, exactly whose team you are really on.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 01:41:06 PMDon't get me wrong here Muhammad is wrong but Not THE false prophet. It would be kind of like you quoting Satan as the Gospel truth. If you don't see the problem with that then you have more problems than I thought!
If you beat that dead horse one more time, any sane person reading this thread, will understand exactly who you just described.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 01:41:06 PMHow can a Liar have any truth?
John 8:44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Why in the world would you take the word of a Liar as truth?
I don't. I presented his lies that HIS FOLLOWERS FOLLOW so you could quit taking the word of his deluded followers of that liar as to what they THINK is the truth, so you could understand what they are actually required to follow, and see whose side you have taken against the Israelis.
QuoteDid you know it also says he converted to Judaism later in life!
Nope Sorry. I misread that. The guy that converted was a mentor of his! A Jewish convert was Darbys mentor imagine that.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 02:09:53 PM
QuoteYour ignorance to Islam, is how you wound up running with Muhammad's followers, against the Israelis.
I don't "run against Israelis" Just those that say they are Jews and do lie but are of the synagogue of Satan!
I don't know why that is so hard for you to get.
As stated MANY times now. I love our brother Judah. And the other 11 tribes.
You really don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. Just assuming.
I don't need to know what the Muslim faith believes. Just my God!
You keep your Quran! and Ellis Skolfield. I will take the Bible! LOL
May be you could explain Rev 2:9 and 3:9 for me. I mean being I am so ignorant and all!
Back on this post
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3128.msg12938#msg12938
I wrote
"Why don't you share with us what you would like for Israel?
As much as your U.S. hat and curls guy would like to pretend that Jews and Muslims could live freely, side by side in the middle east, the difficulty is that Muslims don't seem to be able to do that anywhere in the world.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1143.msg4475#msg4475 "
So what do you think? Israelis should have waited for more than 2 years to try to interdict the rockets raining down on them?
Maybe give away more land in exchange for peace like they did Gaza, with Muhammadans immediately set up shop and raining those rockets down in Israel?
What is your plan?
QuoteAnd if we didn't investigate what he said we would just have to depend on the Muslims saying "We believe in Jesus and all the prophets"
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2714.0
What reason would you have to doubt them? Indeed perhaps you believed them before you learned a little more about WHAT MUHAMMAD SAID which is what the ENEMIES OF NON-MUSLIMS BELIEVE.
NO we can JUST depend on the word of God! That is enough for me and should be enough for you.
And No I do not and have never beleived as they do as you suggest. LOL
You are still assuming. things you know nothing of.
As far as beating a dead horse goes. Sometimes you have to spoon feed people like you to make them understand!
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 02:24:44 PM
QuoteAnd if we didn't investigate what he said we would just have to depend on the Muslims saying "We believe in Jesus and all the prophets"
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2714.0
What reason would you have to doubt them? Indeed perhaps you believed them before you learned a little more about WHAT MUHAMMAD SAID which is what the ENEMIES OF NON-MUSLIMS BELIEVE.
NO we can JUST depend on the word of God!
So then you are stuck believing them when they say they believe in Jesus.
And then can only sit there befuddled when they are responsible for over 18,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world just since 9-11.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Wondering why Muhammadans are responsible for the killing and displacing 2 million in the Sudan alone.
Why the new Muslim government killed 1,000 Christian on the Ivory Coast.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm
Why those so-called Palestinians were firebombing Christian homes (when those same Christians enjoyed protection under Israeli rule).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaYmPmoIpS8&feature=player_embedded#
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3414753,00.html
"'Christians must accept Islamic rule'
Militant leader in Gaza says missionaries will be 'dealt with harshly,' demands women wear headscarfs.
Christians can only continue living safely in the Gaza Strip if they accept Islamic law, including a ban on alcohol and on women roaming publicly without proper head coverings, an Islamist militant leader in Gaza told WND in an exclusive interview."
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3414753,00.html
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 02:24:44 PMThat is enough for me and should be enough for you.
You are the living proof that it should not be enough for anybody that wants to render an opinion about Israel. How could a person effectively witness to a Muslim if he didn't even know what they believed?
I recommend the book "Peace Child" if you don't understand the significance of finding a key in mission work.
Worse than that you would be stuck believing the falsehood they told you about what they believe.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 02:24:44 PM
And No I do not and have never beleived as they do as you suggest. LOL
You are still assuming. things you know nothing of.
That's because you repeatedly ignore my efforts to find out what your solution is for Israel.
Same as your solution for Sweden?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlG75wb7lLw
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 02:24:44 PMAs far as beating a dead horse goes. Sometimes you have to spoon feed people like you to make them understand!
QuoteThat's because you repeatedly ignore my efforts to find out what your solution is for Israel.
Same as your solution for Sweden?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlG75wb7lLw
LOL really. As I said before WHO IS LEADING THIS.
Who are the ones SCREAMING racism!!
Since you like the videos so much HERE is one that tells us WHO is behind it. What are your thoughts about this video??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AOc4CfSYv4
Please read forum decorum. Members are required to engage in an exchange.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=35.0
For the third time.
Back on this post
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3128.msg12938#msg12938
I wrote
"Why don't you share with us what you would like for Israel?
As much as your U.S. hat and curls guy would like to pretend that Jews and Muslims could live freely, side by side in the middle east, the difficulty is that Muslims don't seem to be able to do that anywhere in the world.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1143.msg4475#msg4475 "
So what do you think? Israelis should have waited for more than 2 years to try to interdict the rockets raining down on them?
Maybe give away more land in exchange for peace like they did Gaza, with Muhammadans immediately set up shop and raining those rockets down in Israel?
What is your plan?
QuoteSo then you are stuck believing them when they say they believe in Jesus.
We have, according to scripture, ways to test the fruit of the spirit. Well that is if you have read. Did you.
Kinda of like the JW's when they say they also believe in Jesus but not in the physical resurrection. LOL
We can know with out reading their book. If it don't match the word you know what you are dealing with, and you know, you can find a lot about a person by just listening. Then you share the truth.
I don't know if you understand this or not. But it is not YOU that causes the seed to grow anyhow. We are to plant the seed. God will cause it to grow if he wants it to NOT US. In his own time I might add.
And I like very much to witness!
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 02:50:33 PM
QuoteSo then you are stuck believing them when they say they believe in Jesus.
We have, according to scripture, ways to test the fruit of the spirit. Well that is if you have read. Did you.
Kinda of like the JW's when they say they also believe in Jesus but not in the physical resurrection. LOL
We can know with out reading their book.
That's really funny coming from you. Here's some scripture on fruit
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Yet you don't find it peculiar that your anti-zionist company includes Nazis, skinheads, Muslims, the KKK & David Duke, the Soviets and anti-semites of all stripes - even as you believe you have powers of discernment.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 02:50:33 PMIf it don't match the word you know what you are dealing with, and you know, you can find a lot about a person by just listening. Then you share the truth.
I don't know if you understand this or not. But it is not YOU that causes the seed to grow anyhow. We are to plant the seed. God will cause it to grow if he wants it to NOT US. In his own time I might add.
And I like very much to witness!
Israel. The word of God says we are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem and I do. I have answered your question and am getting tired of answering it. This is NOT about Israel! Nor Judah. My problem is with the fake Jews and fasle Zionism. Which I don't think you will understand until Jerusalem is the Capitol of the World! Which it will be soon.
Now YOU follow the forum rule and answer the video I linked!
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 02:56:00 PM
Israel. The word of God says we are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem and I do. I have answered your question and am getting tired of answering it. This is NOT about Israel! Nor Judah. My problem is with the fake Jews and fasle Zionism.
Then skip the fake and unregernerate Jews. No need to mention them again.
There is no such thing as fake Zionism. You are either for a homeland for the Jews or you are against it.
Daniel pinned the Jews declaration of their statehood in 1948, and to their city 1967, in two parallel problems that span 2500 years.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 02:56:00 PMWhich I don't think you will understand until Jerusalem is the Capitol of the World! Which it will be soon.
Now there's a real corker! I gotta repeat it! Israel - the capitol of the world!
So your solution to this inevitable turn of events then, would be a preemptive genocide of Jews and maybe driving them into the sea=, like Ahmadenijhad wants?
And let the Muslims turn Israel into another wife beating, child doing, female circumcising, Christian beheading Islamic terror slave state?
Frankly, if Israel were and capitol of the world, and running the U.S. for example, at least maybe the spineless politicians selling out of future generations in the U.S. to Islam and sharia law would be abated!
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=58.0
Quote from: Peter on March 18, 2012, 03:01:55 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 02:56:00 PM
Israel. The word of God says we are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem and I do. I have answered your question and am getting tired of answering it. This is NOT about Israel! Nor Judah. My problem is with the fake Jews and fasle Zionism.
Then skip the fake and unregernerate Jews. No need to mention them again.
There is no such thing as fake Zionism. You are either for a homeland for the Jews or you are against it.
Only because you don't want to recognize the fake Jew. The ones that hijacked the name of Judaism. I posted about them earlier.
I agree with defining terms. But I think we should back up another step and define "Jew"
I hope you are a Strong's user
OT Jew #3064 desc. of Judah Judaite
NT Jew # 2453 From #2448 a country Judean Belonging to Jehudah
#2448 Judah or of place in Palestine.
Not all are of the tribe of Judah.
Also according to Deut 5 trough 7 Israel is God' chosen people.
That is.. All 12 tribes. Not one.
As far as zionism
I am not sure we will agree on a definition. Because your view and my view are different. That is a lot of this debate.
False Zionism is the final beast system. They are the NWO.
?? Zionism of old we agree on but today we do not.
Remeber that Post You never gave your opinion of what a "Jew" is.
Quote
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 02:56:00 PMWhich I don't think you will understand until Jerusalem is the Capitol of the World! Which it will be soon.
Now there's a real corker!
So your solution then would be genocide of Jews, and driving them into the sea, like Ahmadenijhad?
Who said anything about Genocide about anybody?? Would You PLEASE point out where I said that. I think you must read my post like you read the Bible! You just hear and understand what you want to.
Quoteif Israel were and capitol of the world, and running the U.S. for example, at least maybe the spineless politicians selling out of future generations in the U.S. to Islam and sharia law would be abated!
Your joking right?? Did you watch the video?
Do you have any Idea what the four hidden Dynasties are? Who do you think controls our monitory system. And with that our Government? How about our media??
No I suppose you don't.
Here is another of YOUR brethren. The Fakes that you say don't exist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX9Tk2TMA6Q&feature=related
LOL get your head out of the sand.
You are completely diluted because of the name Israel. They are not ALL who you think they are. Nor will those in particular EVER care about YOU.
QuoteNow there's a real corker! I gotta repeat it! Israel - the capitol of the world!
Let me Help You. United Nations The United Nations recommends that Jerusalem be placed under a special international regime, a corpus separatum, but envisions the city eventually becoming the capital of two states, Israel and Palestine.[14]
The UNGA has stated that the international community, through the United Nations has a legitimate interest, regarding the protection of Jerusalem's unique spiritual, religious and cultural dimensions.[15] Its position on the question of Jerusalem is based upon General Assembly resolution 181 (II) November 29, 1947, which provides for the full territorial internationalisation of Jerusalem: "The City of Jerusalem shall be established as a corpus separatum under a special international regime and shall be administered by the United Nations."[16] This position was restated in the wake of the 1948 Arabâ€"Israeli War in UN General Assembly Resolution 303(IV) of 1949. According to a 1979 report prepared for and under the guidance of the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People, it would appear that the UN has maintained that until the final status of the city is agreed by the parties involved, the legal status of the city remains a corpus separatum.[17]
The United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) does not recognise Israel's proclamation of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, which is, for example, reflected in the wording of General Assembly Resolution 63/30 of 2009 which states that "any actions taken by Israel, the occupying Power, to impose its laws, jurisdiction and administration on the Holy City of Jerusalem are illegal and therefore null and void and have no validity whatsoever, and calls upon Israel to cease all such illegal and unilateral measures."[15]
A total of six UN Security Council resolutions on Israel have denounced or declared invalid Israel's control of the city, including UNSC resolution 478 which affirmed that the enactment of the 1980 Basic Jerusalem Law declaring unified Jerusalem as Israel's "eternal and indivisible" capital, was a violation of international law. The resolution advised member states to withdraw their diplomatic representation from the city.
Do I need to quote Paul again??
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 03:40:33 PM
Quote from: Peter on March 18, 2012, 03:01:55 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 02:56:00 PM
Israel. The word of God says we are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem and I do. I have answered your question and am getting tired of answering it. This is NOT about Israel! Nor Judah. My problem is with the fake Jews and fasle Zionism.
Then skip the fake and unregernerate Jews. No need to mention them again.
There is no such thing as fake Zionism. You are either for a homeland for the Jews or you are against it.
Only because you don't want to recognize the fake Jew. The ones that hijacked the name of Judaism. I posted about them earlier.
I agree with defining terms. But I think we should back up another step and define "Jew"
I hope you are a Strong's user
OT Jew #3064 desc. of Judah Judaite
NT Jew # 2453 From #2448 a country Judean Belonging to Jehudah
#2448 Judah or of place in Palestine.
Not all are of the tribe of Judah.
Also according to Deut 5 trough 7 Israel is God' chosen people.
That is.. All 12 tribes. Not one.
As far as zionism
I am not sure we will agree on a definition. Because your view and my view are different. That is a lot of this debate.
False Zionism is the final beast system. They are the NWO.
?? Zionism of old we agree on but today we do not.
Remeber that Post You never gave your opinion of what a "Jew" is.Quote
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 02:56:00 PMWhich I don't think you will understand until Jerusalem is the Capitol of the World! Which it will be soon.
Now there's a real corker!
So your solution then would be genocide of Jews, and driving them into the sea, like Ahmadenijhad?
Who said anything about Genocide about anybody?? Would You PLEASE point out where I said that. I think you must read my post like you read the Bible! You just hear and understand what you want to.
Let me help you out. When someone puts the little thing that looks like this ? after a sentence that indicates that it is a question. So I was asking if that would be your solution.
So what would your solution be for all those "fake" Jews?
(http://www.beholdthebeast.com/0eaf4090.jpg)
Maybe ship them off to Siberia so that Muhammadan majority elected terrorist organization Hamas can take over Israel, and turn it into another sharia law ruled, female circumcising, child doing, wife beating, Christian beheading, Islamist terror slave state so they can all live happily ever after.
Very simply I can only tell you like this!
Mat 13:24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
We are to leave them alone. They will be dealt with at harvest. It is not our place. Just in case you don't understand the parable the Fake Jew are the tares.
They are the False Zionist. If you understood that you would understand what 666 really is.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 03:51:25 PMDo I need to quote Paul again??
I doubt that would do you any good since it didn't help you understand where the temple of God is (that the man of sin sitteth in) the last time.
Am I supposed to be surprised that a bunch of anti-semitic pro-Islam Marxists at the U.N. don't recognize the Land that Israel won, when their neighbors threatened them, and so they kicked their butts to secure their citizenry from attack?
And now you copy and paste a bunch of wikipedia rather than answer the posts? We don't need you larding this thread with loads of dung to bury what you haven't answered.
Why don't you try these?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3128.msg12931#msg12931
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3128.msg12932#msg12932
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3128.msg12934#msg12934
I tried to answer all your questions, but when my questions deconstructed your eschatology you pouted. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3128.msg12916#msg12916
And tried to excuse away your errors, like in the following post.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 17, 2012, 10:09:59 PM
Quote from: Peter on March 17, 2012, 10:05:50 PM
Now you said it was the abomination that Jesus said was spoken of by the prophet Daniel, yet Daniel's abomination is an "it" that "stands" in the holy place.
But your antichrist abomination "sitteth" in the temple of God.
That is what Marturian was pointing out.
Yes and I explained it. Some of this has to do with translation. I am a KJ man but you guys do know it is a translation right?
Many scholars translated Mat24 HE! Standing where HE ought not!
Only a "scholar" compromised by your/John Darby's futurist eschatology ("oh i meant
the other temple of God!" "...you know, the
rebuilt temple of God that gets desolated by that man of sin !").
There are a bunch of bible versions to check it in here.
http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm
Why is it you avoid all the threads that detail all of the reprobate actions of the so-called "Palestinians"?
For that matter I don't remember you commenting on any of them that concerned your fellow anti-zionists either.
LOL Who's Pouting???
No you don't answer anything. You tell me what Skolfeild said. What you know comes from there.
I answered your question about Israel.
QuoteAnd why is it you avoid all the threads that detail all of the reprobate actions of the so-called "Palestinians"?
As far as Palestinians. I don't care if it is a Palestinian or American or Jew or Gentile or Israel or even if they call themselves a Christian. If they are reprobate then you should already know the Answer. I don't know exactly what it is you are referring to though. This thread is quite long and there has been a lot said. Or are you just referring to them in general. As in on youtube??
As far as the wiki paste. I put that there because what was said about Jerusalem being an International city (capitol of the world) like I said. And that was the plan from the beginning. What was actually said about Jerusalem is it would belong to the world. Should you be surprised?? Not if you know the truth.
QuoteI doubt that would do you any good since it didn't help you understand where the temple of God is (that the man of sin sitteth in) the last time.
I know you don't understand this. But he is referring to a PHYSICAL place. Yes I understand quite well.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 07:15:05 PM
QuoteI doubt that would do you any good since it didn't help you understand where the temple of God is (that the man of sin sitteth in) the last time.
I know you don't understand this. But he is referring to a PHYSICAL place. Yes I understand quite well.
How could a physical temple be sanctified, so that it could then be desolated?
Quote from: Peter on March 18, 2012, 07:20:47 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 07:15:05 PM
QuoteI doubt that would do you any good since it didn't help you understand where the temple of God is (that the man of sin sitteth in) the last time.
I know you don't understand this. But he is referring to a PHYSICAL place. Yes I understand quite well.
How could a physical temple be sanctified, so that it could then be desolated?
If I understand your question correctly.
I don't know that it is sanctified. But The Anti-Christ will bring about the desolation.
Jesus only says the Holy Place. Which it is!
Paul says sit in the temple of God. I have done a study on this and in the Greek it is Naos The same as Mat 23:16 It is an actual Temple building consisting of the Holy Place and Holy of Holies. Which is diferent from hieron which is the whole of the temple courts. But it is translated Temple in the bible also.
We both can only go by what the word says and that is what it says.
Also Mat 24:15 The Holy Place is comparible to Mat 4:5 the Pinnacle. Pinnacle = the wing.. Greek= pterugion used of that part of the Temple or Holy place where the abomination of desolation is to stand according to Theodotion a fourth reviser of the Septuagint about the middle of the century!
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 08:48:04 PM
Quote from: Peter on March 18, 2012, 07:20:47 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 07:15:05 PM
QuoteI doubt that would do you any good since it didn't help you understand where the temple of God is (that the man of sin sitteth in) the last time.
I know you don't understand this. But he is referring to a PHYSICAL place. Yes I understand quite well.
How could a physical temple be sanctified, so that it could then be desolated?
If I understand your question correctly.
I don't know that it is sanctified. But The Anti-Christ will bring about the desolation.
Jesus only says the Holy Place.
When I used the term "borderline blasphemy", it was perhaps too conservative of a description, because now you tacitly admit you should have known better.
It is
only your false doctrine that leads you to conclude that a physical temple could be sanctified, but
there is only one temple in the Christian era, and that is the one that Jesus built. Regardless of what the ambitions of some still-sovereignly blinded Jews may be, it is absolutely inexcusable for a Christian, because the temple was removed to illuminate
THE WAY which
IS Jesus Christ.
Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
It is
only false doctrine that forces you to conclude such an abomination as a sanctified physical temple, which would be a restoration of the old covenant.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 08:48:04 PMWhich it is!
It is my brethren and I.1Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that
your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that
ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for
ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 08:48:04 PMPaul says sit in the temple of God.
And there is only
one temple in the Christian era, and
the body of Christ is it. Therefore we are to look for that "man of sin" in the the body of Christ. Your failure to do so, may well be part of the reason you are anticipating the arrival of a boogieman instead of expecting my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ's return.
To suggest that there needed to be another temple would be to suggest that the price Jesus paid on the cross is incomplete and unfinished.
Acts 17:24
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth,
dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 08:48:04 PMI have done a study on this and in the Greek it is Naos The same as Mat 23:16 It is an actual Temple building consisting of the Holy Place and Holy of Holies.
If you have studied it then you know that "naos" is also the term used for
the temple that Christians are. It is the spiritual aspect of the physical temple.
""Holy of Holies" is always translated as "Most Holy Place". This is in keeping with the intention of
the Hebrew idiom to express the utmost degree of holiness."
That is consistent with it's use in Matt 23 that refers to swearing an oath in the "utmost degree of holiness", rather than a physical building.
Since you studied the terms you should know that if a physical temple had been meant in 2Thessalonians the term "hieron" would have been used.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm
But far more than that you should have known better because
Christians ARE the temple. But you blaspheme the
true tabernacle of God
solely because of your unique heretical one-off doctrine.
Hbr 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of
the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together
groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 08:48:04 PMWhich is diferent from hieron which is the whole of the temple courts. But it is translated Temple in the bible also.
We both can only go by what the word says and that is what it says.
If you were going by what the Word says you wouldn't have turned it into a lie to fit an abominably false doctrine, that suggests that Jesus sacrifice was so much of a failure, was so incomplete, that another temple would need to be sanctified.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Maybe this will help you realize that it is your filthy abominable doctrine, that is responsible for
your railing against the Israeli people, and joining team Hamas.Make no mistake. There are only two sides in that conflict. The only other option is abstaining from having opinion, but it's obviously far too late for you to cop to that plea.
Please do not read this post until you have read the prior post as it is a follow-up.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 01:16:36 PM
QuoteSo sad that it has made you so blind to the suffering of our brothers and sisters around the world, that you took sides with their oppressors.
www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm
The only thing that is sad is if their are more that believe like you do! And I have told you before about accusing. Lets not forget who is the accuser. It would appear you get mad because you don't understand and just accuse. I didn't take sides with any other than Christ!
Like I have said. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. This means ALL.
It's certainly no surprise that you cannot discern the difference between those antichrists that follow the false prophet Muhammad and satan's Quran - that prostrate themselves 5 times a day toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca - and my brethren of the "good olive tree" (that I am grafted into), and of the "mystery" of the "spirit of slumber" God gave some faithful, Old Testament believing, Jews.
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/spirit_of_slumber.htm
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 01:16:36 PMAnd let me ask you! What about the Christian Palestinians?? What of them. Not the Muslims but the Christians? Should we just disregard those because they do not say they are Jews?
It's
anti-Zionists like you, as well the antichrist anti-Semites that you run with,
that bear the responsibility for the ever-increasing demise of those Christians at the hand of
your team. Team Hamas. Team Islam. Team Nazi. Team KKK.
Here's the future
YOU created for those Christians that you pay lip service to pretending to bleed for,
when those same Christians enjoyed protection under Israeli rule that you are systematically destroying:
"
'Christians must accept Islamic rule'Militant leader in Gaza says missionaries will be 'dealt with harshly,' demands women wear headscarfs.
Christians can only continue living safely in the Gaza Strip if they accept Islamic law, including a ban on alcohol and on women roaming publicly without proper head coverings, an Islamist militant leader in Gaza told WND in an exclusive interview."
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3414753,00.html
Your so-called Palestinians firebombing Christian homes.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/index5.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaYmPmoIpS8&feature=player_embedded#
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 01:16:36 PMAnd my mistake. I do not like Scofeild at all .......
What you claim you "do not like" is betrayed by your professing of futurist doctrine, that John Darby initiated in the English "Plymouth Brethren", and C.I. Scofield's annotated bible advanced in the 20th century U.S. "church".
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/end_time_myth.htm
Like your hollow objections to being recognized as taking the side of Hamas, the Nazis, skinheads, and the KKK & David Duke, even as you demonize Zionism right alongside them.
There are TWO DISTINCT SIDES.http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2984.0
Your claim of disliking the futurist doctrine that you simultaneously hold, smacks of Muslims that are deceived into believing they believe in Jesus, when the reality is perfectly polar, since they profess the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 01:16:36 PM...... and I thought that is what you were referring to. So you have based your entire way of thinking on ONE mans BOOK which is Skolfeild?
No I have spent several years in full-time study, far beyond his book, including trying and testing his study in discussion with those that hold other eschatologies (though not as much time with heretics that hold unique, personal, one-off doctrines). The website links I have offered you (that are listed at the very bottom under this post) are the continuing result of that still-running study.
The bible advises us to:
Job 8:8 For enquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers: 9(For we [are but of] yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth [are] a shadow:)
Here is a list of a few of the people that support the basis of Skolfield's book, which is the day-year language of prophecy, within the
traditional continuous-historic context.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm
Augustine (AD 430)
Nahawendi (Jewish) (AD 8-9th century)
Jehoram (AD 10th century)
Abraham bar Hiyya (Jewish) (AD 1136)
Arnold of Villanova AD (1292)
Tichonius (AD 380)
Joachim of Floris (AD 1202)
John Wycliffe (AD c.1379)
Nicholas of Cusa (AD c.1452)
Martin Luther (AD 1522)
Phillip Melanchthon (AD 1543)
Johan Funck (AD 1558)
James I of England (AD 1600)
Sir Isaac Newton (AD 1727)
Quoting from "The False Prophet": "In 1569, the great Anabaptist theologian,
Thieleman van Braght, wrote the following in Martyrs Mirror, pages 21-24: '
a thousand two hundred and threescore days, which reckoned according to prophetic language means as many years… let it be reckoned as it may, say we, as a very long period of time.'
Two hundred years later,
Matthew Henry, in his 'Commentary of the Whole Bible', came to the same conclusion (Vol VI, page 1157 column 1, para. 2): "….if the beginning of that interval could be ascertained,
this number of prophetic days, taking a day for a year, would give us a prospect of when the end might be."
And incidental to my personal study:
Isaac Newton - "She is nourished by the merchants of the earth, three times or years and an half, or 42 months, or 1260 days:
and in these Prophecies days are put for years." - Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St.a John - Chapter 3
Jamison, Faucett & Brown commentary - "..... in the wilderness 'a thousand two hundred and threescore days.' In the wider sense,
we may either adopt the year-day theory of 1260 years..."
While folks were sharp enough to understand this "language" of prophecy back then, they were also sharp enough to know they couldn't see the fulfillment of those day-year problems assigned by scripture, but they did recognize what the future would hold:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#isaac_newton
Isaac Newton: "All which is as much as to say, that these Prophecies of Daniel and John should not be understood till the time of the end: .... But in the very end, the Prophecy should be so far interpreted as to convince many."
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#matthew_henry
Matthew Henry: "VI. That this prophecy of those times, though sealed up now, would be of great use to those that should live then, v. 4. Daniel must now shut up the words and seal the book....but he must keep it safely, as a treasure of great value, laid up for the ages to come, to whom it would be of great service; for many shall then run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Then this hidden treasure shall be opened, and many shall search into it, and dig for the knowledge of it, as for silver."
So while Isaac Newton and Matthew Henry knew they couldn't see it in their times, they recognized that those of later times would be able to see the wonderful fulfillment of the math problems we were assigned.
Like Daniel's two "times" problems that run in perfect parallel, over the span of 2500 years, confirming the dates of 1948 when Yahweh's people were restored to their land, and 1967 when they were restored to their city, heralding the beginning of what Daniel's prophecy labeled the "time of the end".http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm
Mathematics confirming, what is further confirmed by the texts of those passages, as well as those of the former age. Quite a blessing to have so much confirmation.
Yet in spite of the profound fulfillment of these and several other problems, even after witnessing their perfect fulfillment, folks will turn their heads and stomp off, clutching their precious (15th to) 20th century heresies of preterism and futurism held tightly to their chests. The Berean spirit is completely gone, from a vast volume of the body of Christ, that is lorded over by nicolaitians.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 01:16:36 PMWOW Like I said I will trust the Lord ........
I understand that might be what you think you do, but it's difficult to see how your insistence on
the other temple of God, bears it out. Let's investigate your claim a little further.
Job 8:8 For enquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers: 9(For we [are but of] yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth [are] a shadow:)
1. Please share with us where futurist doctrine is to be found in any church, prior to the mid-19th century when John Nelson Darby penned futurist eschatology, that you hold.
2. Then please share with us which of the fathers of the former age share your personal unique eschatology (or as you put it "Here is part of the big secret. (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3128.msg12882#msg12882)") and whether there is anyone, anywhere, even today, that shares it with you, and if so just who they are.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 01:16:36 PM......... you keep your book! But thank You for the clarification.
QuoteWhen I used the term "borderline blasphemy", it was perhaps too conservative of a description, because now you tacitly admit you should have known better.
It is only your false doctrine that leads you to conclude that a physical temple could be sanctified, but there is only one temple in the Christian era, and that is the one that Jesus built. Regardless of what the ambitions of some still-sovereignly blinded Jews may be, it is absolutely inexcusable for a Christian, because the temple was removed to illuminate THE WAY which IS Jesus Christ.
Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
It is only false doctrine that forces you to conclude such an abomination as a sanctified physical temple, which would be a restoration of the old covenant.
LOL Pete your a work all right. I have never had someone that is suppose to be "Christian" try and insult me as much as you. You wouldn't know the truth if it DID smack you in the face. Do you think Jesus and Paul was telling you that Satan or Muhammad was going to stand in your heart?? You sound like a disbeliever to me! LOL It is more than obvious that you can't dicern between physical and spiritual. Again YES the Church is the body of Christ. But the Anti Christ is physically going to come and he will stand in the Holy Place Just like Jesus said he would. Now if you want to talk about some Blasphemy lets talk about how you are denying the very words of Christ! Maybe Jesus should ok'ed it with you first huh?
QuoteQuote from: Michael2 on March 18, 2012, 04:48:04 PM
Which it is!
It is my brethren and I.
1Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
I usually don't give English lessons like you did to me. But LOL I couldn't resist. Remember the smart alec comment you made about the ? following a sentence. I also made the comment about reading comprehension skills which you have blatantly displayed you have none of. Look up at my Statement again. Yeah I didn't ask you a question I made a statement! That ended with this !! Get it!
QuoteAnd there is only one temple in the Christian era, and the body of Christ is it. Therefore we are to look for that "man of sin" in the the body of Christ. Your failure to do so, may well be part of the reason you are anticipating the arrival of a boogieman instead of expecting my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ's return.
To suggest that there needed to be another temple would be to suggest that the price Jesus paid on the cross is incomplete and unfinished.
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
I don't know if your aware of this but the "Jews" still sacrifice. THEY are the ones that want to build the temple. Which I already said that. Also I do expect the return of Jesus but I expect it in the time line that Jesus himself gave! Big difference.
QuoteIf you have studied it then you know that "naos" is also the term used for the temple that Christians are. It is the spiritual aspect of the physical temple.
LOL need I say more!! YES I know this, but what is funny and I would like to point out is YOU just confirmed what I said "It is the spiritual aspect of the physical temple." Out of your own mouth! I hope your paying attention this time. Like I said earlier Paul is speaking spiritual LOL
QuoteYou should be ashamed of yourself.
Maybe this will help you realize that it is your filthy abominable doctrine, that is responsible for your railing against the Israeli people, and joining team Hamas.
Make no mistake. There are only two sides in that conflict. The only other option is abstaining from having opinion, but it's obviously far too late for you to cop to that plea.
I would be ashamed if I had a mouth like YOU. And You say you are Christian? Railing against the Israeli People?? Being dishonest is a sin!
QuoteAnd let me ask you! What about the Christian Palestinians?? What of them. Not the Muslims but the Christians? Should we just disregard those because they do not say they are Jews?
It's anti-Zionists like you, as well the antichrist anti-Semites that you run with, that bear the responsibility for the ever-increasing demise of those Christians at the hand of your team. Team Hamas. Team Islam. Team Nazi. Team KKK.
Here's the future YOU created for those Christians that you pay lip service to pretending to bleed for, when those same Christians enjoyed protection under Israeli rule that you are systematically destroying:
Here we go again I and others like me are the only ones that are speaking up for them. It certainly is NOT YOU. I don't know if your aware of this but Israel almost outlawed Christianity! Before you say key word. Let me just tell you why. They knew they wouldn't get the support of sheeple like YOU.
Let me clue you in on something else.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
When you study the Bible you have to look at who is talking then who is being spoken to then when it was written. And of course some things are written for latter times like much of Daniel. When this verse was written there was no such thing as Muhammad nor Islam! So let me ask you WHO do you think was being discussed? I will give you one guess!
QuoteWhat you claim you "do not like" is betrayed by your professing of futurist doctrine, that John Darby initiated in the English "Plymouth Brethren", and C.I. Scofield's annotated bible advanced in the 20th century U.S. "church".
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/end_time_myth.htm
Like your hollow objections to being recognized as taking the side of Hamas, the Nazis, skinheads, and the KKK & David Duke, even as you demonize Zionism right alongside them.
There are TWO DISTINCT SIDES.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2984.0
Your claim of disliking the futurist doctrine that you simultaneously hold, smacks of Muslims that are deceived into believing they believe in Jesus, when the reality is perfectly polar, since they profess the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel.
I really couldn't be more clear. If we are just going to point fingers. Let me point the finger of your blatant use of a book that is meaningless to prove points in the Word of God! How ignorant can one possibly be?
Quote
No I have spent several years in full-time study, far beyond his book, including trying and testing his study in discussion with those that hold other eschatologies (though not as much time with heretics that hold unique, personal, one-off doctrines). The website links I have offered you (that are listed at the very bottom under this post) are the continuing result of that still-running study.
The bible advises us to:
You know!! I can see it. What you should have done is put all that nonsense down and studied the word of God! That really is the best way. You can't go to wrong with him. Give that a try!
QuoteI understand that might be what you think you do, but it's difficult to see how your insistence on the other temple of God, bears it out. Let's investigate your claim a little further.
Ya know funny you would say that. But YOU cleared that up for us didn't YOU. LOL ROTF
QuoteIf you have studied it then you know that "naos" is also the term used for the temple that Christians are. It is the spiritual aspect of the physical temple.
Yep that is pretty clear
Look I didn't come here to play one upman ship with you. You know where to find me. I am willing to debate on a mature level when you are. But this nonsense of accusing stops here. Your like a kid or something. And Like you said this is not a Childs book. However it was given so a child could understand it. But people like you think it has to be more complicated than that. It don't!
For the last time I no more study with these people than you are a Muslim then again you quote them more than you do the bible. Maybe you are a Muslim. Hagee Scofield Darby. These are names that I have never would never study with. Just because we both KNOW that there will be a future anti-christ you make the connection. And I can assure you my friend that is where the connection ends! I would also add that if you think what you say is some little believed thing you a re dead wrong.
Look at it like this. Muslims are waiting on there 12th Imam the Jews are waiting on their Messiah. Lets not forget they rejected the Chief corner stone. Buddist are waiting on Buddy the Hindus are waiting on their millions of gods Christians (for the most part unfortunately because of the false doctrines of men like you accuse me of following) are waiting on the rapture. Then there are people like you that would have the world to believe that these things have already happened and the next step would be the rapture.
Your saying the same THING. May be just a little backwards. but the same. This is not what Jesus told us! Nor Paul! nor ANY of the Prophets. I mean real prophets in the word of GOD. Not like the false prophets you quote! In fact Jesus told us just the opposite.
unfortunately you may never understand this till it happens, But you (and all the other groups aforementioned) in all likeliness will be just like the people Jesus warned woe to you who are with child when I return. Your going to think the fake is real Jesus come to rapture you out. Because you didn't hold to the truth of God's word. Blessed is he that comes to the end the same shall be saved!
If you only understood! Anyway. Like I said earlier you know where to find me. Until then I have REAL studies to attend to! Thanks anyway.
Michael2
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Maybe you could show us which one of the only 4 verses that use the term antichrist or antichrists tell us about your boogeyman antichrist that is still in our future?
Why do you disagree with what/where Paul told us the temple of God is?
Who are the elect that are enemies of the gospel?
What is the difference between the spirit of slumber and the spirit of antichrist?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 19, 2012, 07:44:23 PMI am willing to debate on a mature level when you are.
Then let us. Since I've only gotten glimpses of what you believe about Revelation and Daniel and the Olivet Discourse let me ask a broad question.
What portions of the book of Revelation - after chapter 3 - do you believe have been fulfilled?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 19, 2012, 07:44:23 PMYou know where to find me.
I thought I could find you here since you "hate these little boxes" in YouTube.
And since you popped in here so quickly after my replies in this forum, I figured you were getting email notices of responses in here.
We realize you are busy with studies and maybe even tests, but perhaps you could find a short answer, or provide us with a paper or something with your view organized, if you have it written down.
Who is Cains father. The answer is found Right there in Genesis 3 but confirmation is found in John 8 and also in Mat 23 and Mat 13 the parable of the tares are about Cain who his father is. Jesus point blank tells you. And the parable of the Fig Tree is also an awesome parable if you understand the horticulture of the fig tree. Remeber Eve sowed fig leaves to cover her womb!! Jeremiah 24 is also the place that tells us about the good fig and the bad fig (fake Jews). Are you starting to get the picture??
It is not who I believe Cains father is! It is who the Bible says Cains father is! This is hard to accept but it is truth. I don't say it because I would rather you read it from your Bible yourself. I think ultimately we both agree that it does not matter what WE think but rather what the word of God says. I have MANY MANY passages to prove what I KNOW to be fact, however this is something even after YEARS of study I still didn't understand until God showed me. I pray that he shows you. 1 Chron. 2:55 will give ypou some direction as to his Children today. Cains children are the tares the Bad Fig! Read it.
Something I would like to point out about Matthew 13 is from 13:24 to 30 Jesus gave the parable of the tares which is spiritual. Then in 13:35 it says "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world." That is exactly what we are discussing here, the secret from the foundation of the world. Then Jesus tells us what the parable means. Understand! When he tells you what it means you are not talking spiritually anymore it is LITERAL. From 13:36 to 39 he is telling you literally what the parable means. Then from 13:40 to 43 He is giving an application of it.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 23, 2012, 07:49:30 PM
It is not who I believe Cains father is! It is who the Bible says Cains father is! This is hard to accept but it is truth.
Why would the truth of scripture be hard for a Christian to accept?
Here is what my bible says.
KJV Gen 4:1 And
Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said,
I have gotten a man from the LORD.
Cain's father was Adam.And AdamOld Testament Hebrew Definition:
0120
'adam {aw-dawm'}from 0119; TWOT - 25a; n m
AV -
man 408, men 121, Adam 13, person(s) 8, common sort + 07230 1,
hypocrite 1; 552
1) man, mankind
1a)
man, human being1b) man, mankind (much more frequently intended sense in OT)
1c)
Adam, first man1d) city in Jordan valley
knewOld Testament Hebrew Definition:
03045 yada` {yaw-dah'}
1a3)
to know (a person carnally) the LORDOld Testament Hebrew Definition:
03068
Y@hovah {yeh-ho-vaw'}from 01961; TWOT - 484a; n pr dei
AV - LORD 6510, GOD 4, JEHOVAH 4, variant 1; 6519
Jehovah = "the existing One"
1) the proper name of the one true God
1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136
{Cain that is Gotten or Acquired}
Torah from Chabad.org
Gen 4:1. Now
the man knew his wife Eve,
and she conceived...
Hebrew interlinear
Gen 4:1 וְ×"Ö¸×Ö¸×"Ö¸ u·e·adm
and·the·human×™Ö¸×"Ö·×¢ ido
he-knew×" Ö¸ chue
Eve×Ö´ Ö° ashth·u
woman-of·him×"ַר Ö· u·ther
and·she-is-becoming-pregnantQuote from: Michael2 on March 23, 2012, 07:49:30 PMI don't say it because I would rather you read it from your Bible yourself. I think ultimately we both agree that it does not matter what WE think but rather what the word of God says.
Then why are you so afraid to come out and simply just tell us who you believe the word of God tells you Cain's father is? Why obfuscate?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 23, 2012, 07:49:30 PMI have MANY MANY passages to prove what I KNOW to be fact, however this is something even after YEARS of study I still didn't understand until God showed me.
Did He? Let's see. Have you ever heard of a man named Arnold Murray?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 23, 2012, 07:49:30 PMI pray that he shows you. 1 Chron. 2:55 will give ypou some direction as to his Children today. Cains children are the tares the Bad Fig! Read it.
Something I would like to point out about Matthew 13 is from 13:24 to 30 Jesus gave the parable of the tares which is spiritual. Then in 13:35 it says "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world." That is exactly what we are discussing here, the secret from the foundation of the world. Then Jesus tells us what the parable means. Understand! When he tells you what it means you are not talking spiritually anymore it is LITERAL. From 13:36 to 39 he is telling you literally what the parable means. Then from 13:40 to 43 He is giving an application of it.
Please address Marturion's post on the prior page at this link http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3128.msg12982#msg12982
As well as the question in the post at the top of this page at this link http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3128.msg12983#msg12983
“The history of Genesis 3 is intended to teach us the fact that Satan's sphere of activities is in the religious sphere, and not the spheres of crime or immorality; that his battlefield is not the sins arising from human depravity, but the unbelief of the human heart. We are not to look for Satan's activities to-day in the newspaper press, or the police courts ; but in the pulpit, and in professors' chairs. Wherever the Word of God is called in question, there we see the trail of "that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan". This is why anything against the true interests of the Word of God (as being such) finds a ready admission into the news-papers of the world, and is treated as "general literature". This is why anything in favour of its inspiration and Divine origin and its spiritual truth is rigidly excluded as being "controversial".
This is why Satan is quite content that the letter of Scripture should be accepted in Genesis 3, as he himself accepted the letter of Psalm 91:11. He himself could say "It is written" (Matthew 4:6) so long as the letter of what is "written" could be put instead of the truth that is conveyed by it; and so long as it is misquoted or misapplied.
This is his object in perpetuating the traditions of the "snake" and the "apple", because it ministers to the acceptance of his lie, the hiding of God's truth, the support of tradition, the jeers of the infidel, the opposition of the critics, and the stumbling of the weak in faith. “
Dr. E.W. Bullinger
Yeah I am well aware of what the word of God says. But the truth that is conveyed by it seems to go over many peoples head.
You wanted a site to see how I believe. Here is a site that is pretty close. I may not agree with everything these folks say but their pretty sharp. If you don't read ALL of the word of God you will not understand some of these things. For example. Did you notice that Cain is NOT in Adams Genealogy? This is not by accident. NO WHERE in the word of God does it say that Adam begat Cain. And that is the term that is used for fathering. Also I explained the parable of the Sower to you. What is not to get? Matt 23 and all the others how do you explain all of this away? Genesis 4:1. Well I am sorry that ONE verse just will not cut it. Cain and Able were not paternal twins and Eve was already pregnant when Adam Knew here.
2 Corinthians 11 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
What Paul is saying is I want to present you a chaste virgin not like Eve who was seduced. Here is the word Beguiled in the Greek.
beguiled--Strong's # 1818 exapatao (ex-ap-at-ah'-o); from 1537 and 538; to seduce wholly: KJV-- beguile, deceive.
Do you see? Again go and Look at Gen 3:15 She is pregnant in that verse BEFORE Adam knew her. You can deny all you want but that is the truth. You certainly will never explain it away. Not in the word of God. And the reason it is hard for some to accept is it does not fit their comfy life style of the word. Everything is sunshine and roses to them, kinda like those that believe we will all be raptured out before the tribulation LOL. Anyhow here is the site since I can't always be in front of my computer to answer Questions.
theseason.org
If you like you can go over there and see some real Bible Studies. There good people too.
QuoteI have MANY MANY passages to prove what I KNOW to be fact, however this is something even after YEARS of study I still didn't understand until God showed me.
What I meant by this is, WHO these sons of Cain are today! I have known about the Sons of Cain for years, but just came into full understanding about a year and a half ago about who they are today! Go check out 1 Chron 2:55. Also they were with Israel when Baalam was hired to curse the children. We know this prophet-for-hire was not allowed to curse Israel, but look at his description of the future of the Kenites ( in the Hebrew this is Ben Kajin which literally translated means sons of Cain!) that accompanied them!
Numbers 24:21 21 And he looked on the Kenites, and took up his parable, and said, Strong is thy dwellingplace, and thou puttest thy nest in a ROCK. 22 Nevertheless the Kenite shall be wasted, until Asshur shall carry thee away captive. 23 And he took up his parable, and said, Alas, who shall live when God doeth this!
If you don't understand this then that is your problem.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 23, 2012, 07:49:30 PM
It is not who I believe Cains father is! It is who the Bible says Cains father is! This is hard to accept but it is truth.
Why would the truth of scripture be hard for a Christian to accept?
Here is what my bible says.
KJV Gen 4:1 And
Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said,
I have gotten a man from the LORD.
Cain's father was Adam.And AdamOld Testament Hebrew Definition:
0120
'adam {aw-dawm'}from 0119; TWOT - 25a; n m
AV -
man 408, men 121, Adam 13, person(s) 8, common sort + 07230 1,
hypocrite 1; 552
1) man, mankind
1a)
man, human being1b) man, mankind (much more frequently intended sense in OT)
1c)
Adam, first man1d) city in Jordan valley
knewOld Testament Hebrew Definition:
03045 yada` {yaw-dah'}
1a3)
to know (a person carnally) the LORDOld Testament Hebrew Definition:
03068
Y@hovah {yeh-ho-vaw'}from 01961; TWOT - 484a; n pr dei
AV - LORD 6510, GOD 4, JEHOVAH 4, variant 1; 6519
Jehovah = "the existing One"
1) the proper name of the one true God
1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136
{Cain that is Gotten or Acquired}
Torah from Chabad.org
Gen 4:1. Now
the man knew his wife Eve,
and she conceived...
Hebrew interlinear
Gen 4:1 וְ×"Ö¸×Ö¸×"Ö¸ u·e·adm
and·the·human×™Ö¸×"Ö·×¢ ido
he-knew×" Ö¸ chue
Eve×Ö´ Ö° ashth·u
woman-of·him×"ַר Ö· u·ther
and·she-is-becoming-pregnantQuote from: Michael2 on March 23, 2012, 07:49:30 PMI don't say it because I would rather you read it from your Bible yourself. I think ultimately we both agree that it does not matter what WE think but rather what the word of God says.
Then why are you so afraid to come out and simply just tell us who you believe the word of God tells you Cain's father is? Why obfuscate?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 23, 2012, 07:49:30 PMI have MANY MANY passages to prove what I KNOW to be fact, however this is something even after YEARS of study I still didn't understand until God showed me.
Did He? Let's see. Have you ever heard of a man named Arnold Murray?
Quote from: Marturion on March 19, 2012, 09:20:44 PM
Michael2
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Maybe you could show us which one of the only 4 verses that use the term antichrist or antichrists tell us about your boogeyman antichrist that is still in our future?
Why do you disagree with what/where Paul told us the temple of God is?
Who are the elect that are enemies of the gospel?
What is the difference between the spirit of slumber and the spirit of antichrist?
Well if I can only pick of the four then it is OBVIOUS!
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
that antichrist shall COME. even now are there many!! See John knew the scripture teaches that there is a coming antichrist that is THE antichrist. But what he is saying in this verse is that there are NOW many that deny the Christ. John defines this for us in 1 John 2:22 so there is no guessing as to what his definition is. I pointed this out in another post to Pete that since there where no Muslim when this was written WHO do you think he is talking about. Which by the way Pete you didn't answer. I think you don't like the hard Questions. Anyway.. If we go into other scripture like Mat 24 and Mark 13 Luke 21 2 Thes 2 and then we can go into the minor and major prophets. This is what the word of God teaches us and I really don't see with all the explanation of scripture I have given you don't see it.
Quote from: Peter on March 24, 2012, 07:18:17 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 23, 2012, 07:49:30 PMI have MANY MANY passages to prove what I KNOW to be fact, however this is something even after YEARS of study I still didn't understand until God showed me.
Did He? Let's see. Have you ever heard of a man named Arnold Murray?
YES HE DID! And yes I do know Pastor Murray.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 06:54:14 PM
“The history of Genesis 3 is intended to teach us the fact that Satan's sphere of activities is in the religious sphere, and not the spheres of crime or immorality; that his battlefield is not the sins arising from human depravity, but the unbelief of the human heart. We are not to look for Satan's activities to-day in the newspaper press, or the police courts ; but in the pulpit, and in professors' chairs. Wherever the Word of God is called in question, there we see the trail of "that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan". This is why anything against the true interests of the Word of God (as being such) finds a ready admission into the news-papers of the world, and is treated as "general literature". This is why anything in favour of its inspiration and Divine origin and its spiritual truth is rigidly excluded as being "controversial".
This is why Satan is quite content that the letter of Scripture should be accepted in Genesis 3, as he himself accepted the letter of Psalm 91:11. He himself could say "It is written" (Matthew 4:6) so long as the letter of what is "written" could be put instead of the truth that is conveyed by it; and so long as it is misquoted or misapplied.
This is his object in perpetuating the traditions of the "snake" and the "apple", because it ministers to the acceptance of his lie, the hiding of God's truth, the support of tradition, the jeers of the infidel, the opposition of the critics, and the stumbling of the weak in faith. “
Dr. E.W. Bullinger
So that's where you get your futurism from.
"Bullinger's views were often unique, and sometimes controversial. He is so closely tied to what is now called "hyperdispensationalism" that it is sometimes referred to as Bullingerism.[10] Noted dispensationalist Harry A. Ironside (1876â€"1951) declared Bullingerism an "absolutely Satanic perversion of the truth" [11]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._W._Bullinger#Theology
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 19, 2012, 09:20:44 PM
Michael2
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Maybe you could show us which one of the only 4 verses that use the term antichrist or antichrists tell us about your boogeyman antichrist that is still in our future?
Why do you disagree with what/where Paul told us the temple of God is?
Who are the elect that are enemies of the gospel?
What is the difference between the spirit of slumber and the spirit of antichrist?
Well if I can only pick of the four then it is OBVIOUS!
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
that antichrist shall COME. even now are there many!! See John knew the scripture teaches that there is a coming antichrist that is THE antichrist. But what he is saying in this verse is that there are NOW many that deny the Christ. John defines this for us in 1 John 2:22 so there is no guessing as to what his definition is. I pointed this out in another post to Pete that since there where no Muslim when this was written WHO do you think he is talking about. Which by the way Pete you didn't answer. I think you don't like the hard Questions. Anyway.. If we go into other scripture like Mat 24 and Mark 13 Luke 21 2 Thes 2 and then we can go into the minor and major prophets. This is what the word of God teaches us and I really don't see with all the explanation of scripture I have given you don't see it.
Why do you suppose it is that
you still can't bring yourself to make a simple statement as to who you believe the father of Cain was?
KJV Gen 4:1 And
Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said,
I have gotten a man from the LORD.
Why can't you simply name who you believe Cain's father was?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:05:25 PM
QuoteI have MANY MANY passages to prove what I KNOW to be fact, however this is something even after YEARS of study I still didn't understand until God showed me.
What I meant by this is, WHO these sons of Cain are today! I have known about the Sons of Cain for years, but just came into full understanding about a year and a half ago about who they are today! Go check out 1 Chron 2:55. Also they were with Israel when Baalam was hired to curse the children. We know this prophet-for-hire was not allowed to curse Israel, but look at his description of the future of the Kenites ( in the Hebrew this is Ben Kajin which literally translated means sons of Cain!) that accompanied them!
Numbers 24:21 21 And he looked on the Kenites, and took up his parable, and said, Strong is thy dwellingplace, and thou puttest thy nest in a ROCK. 22 Nevertheless the Kenite shall be wasted, until Asshur shall carry thee away captive. 23 And he took up his parable, and said, Alas, who shall live when God doeth this!
If you don't understand this then that is your problem.
See, your reference to a single tribe of Jews gave you/Murray away. Your reference to the Kenites confirmed it.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3150.0
Quote from: Peter on March 24, 2012, 07:28:03 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 06:54:14 PM
“The history of Genesis 3 is intended to teach us the fact that Satan's sphere of activities is in the religious sphere, and not the spheres of crime or immorality; that his battlefield is not the sins arising from human depravity, but the unbelief of the human heart. We are not to look for Satan's activities to-day in the newspaper press, or the police courts ; but in the pulpit, and in professors' chairs. Wherever the Word of God is called in question, there we see the trail of "that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan". This is why anything against the true interests of the Word of God (as being such) finds a ready admission into the news-papers of the world, and is treated as "general literature". This is why anything in favour of its inspiration and Divine origin and its spiritual truth is rigidly excluded as being "controversial".
This is why Satan is quite content that the letter of Scripture should be accepted in Genesis 3, as he himself accepted the letter of Psalm 91:11. He himself could say "It is written" (Matthew 4:6) so long as the letter of what is "written" could be put instead of the truth that is conveyed by it; and so long as it is misquoted or misapplied.
This is his object in perpetuating the traditions of the "snake" and the "apple", because it ministers to the acceptance of his lie, the hiding of God's truth, the support of tradition, the jeers of the infidel, the opposition of the critics, and the stumbling of the weak in faith. “
Dr. E.W. Bullinger
So that's where you get your futurism from.
"Bullinger's views were often unique, and sometimes controversial. He is so closely tied to what is now called "hyperdispensationalism" that it is sometimes referred to as Bullingerism.[10] Noted dispensationalist Harry A. Ironside (1876â€"1951) declared Bullingerism an "absolutely Satanic perversion of the truth" [11]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._W._Bullinger#Theology
Then Ironside is not to bright! LOL
Are you familiar with Occams Razor?? It says
"The simplest explanation for some phenomenon is more likely to be accurate than more complicated explanations."
in other words is it more likely that Bullinger was blessed among men in the word of God. or is it more likely that all the bad things that BAD people say are true. And those that ridicule really don't have a clue what they are talking about and they are really trying to destroy a work that would honor God? Kind of like people that try and destroy the work King James commissioned! They try and try but the truth is What King James did was a Good work that honors God!
Did you know that Bullinger was the only Christian scholar who Ginsburg allowed to proofread his compilation of the massoretico-critical text of the Hebrew Massorah, The smaller commentary writing in the Hebrew text from the time of Ezra/Nehemiah. I think his view is correct.
I use to people that would ridicule REAL Christians scholars and If you have done this long at all you should be too!
Quote from: Peter on March 24, 2012, 07:38:49 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:05:25 PM
QuoteI have MANY MANY passages to prove what I KNOW to be fact, however this is something even after YEARS of study I still didn't understand until God showed me.
What I meant by this is, WHO these sons of Cain are today! I have known about the Sons of Cain for years, but just came into full understanding about a year and a half ago about who they are today! Go check out 1 Chron 2:55. Also they were with Israel when Baalam was hired to curse the children. We know this prophet-for-hire was not allowed to curse Israel, but look at his description of the future of the Kenites ( in the Hebrew this is Ben Kajin which literally translated means sons of Cain!) that accompanied them!
Numbers 24:21 21 And he looked on the Kenites, and took up his parable, and said, Strong is thy dwellingplace, and thou puttest thy nest in a ROCK. 22 Nevertheless the Kenite shall be wasted, until Asshur shall carry thee away captive. 23 And he took up his parable, and said, Alas, who shall live when God doeth this!
If you don't understand this then that is your problem.
See, your reference to a single tribe of Jews gave you/Murray away. Your reference to the Kenites confirmed it.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3150.0
LOL! So? Did I deny this?
Quote from: Peter on March 24, 2012, 07:33:52 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 19, 2012, 09:20:44 PM
Michael2
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Maybe you could show us which one of the only 4 verses that use the term antichrist or antichrists tell us about your boogeyman antichrist that is still in our future?
Why do you disagree with what/where Paul told us the temple of God is?
Who are the elect that are enemies of the gospel?
What is the difference between the spirit of slumber and the spirit of antichrist?
Well if I can only pick of the four then it is OBVIOUS!
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
that antichrist shall COME. even now are there many!! See John knew the scripture teaches that there is a coming antichrist that is THE antichrist. But what he is saying in this verse is that there are NOW many that deny the Christ. John defines this for us in 1 John 2:22 so there is no guessing as to what his definition is. I pointed this out in another post to Pete that since there where no Muslim when this was written WHO do you think he is talking about. Which by the way Pete you didn't answer. I think you don't like the hard Questions. Anyway.. If we go into other scripture like Mat 24 and Mark 13 Luke 21 2 Thes 2 and then we can go into the minor and major prophets. This is what the word of God teaches us and I really don't see with all the explanation of scripture I have given you don't see it.
Why do you suppose it is that you still can't bring yourself to make a simple statement as to who you believe the father of Cain was?
KJV Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
Why can't you simply name who you believe Cain's father was?
Your kidding right?? It is Satan! Again it is NOT who I believe did you read all the scripture I gave you. It has nothing to do with me not wanting to SAY it! I wanted YOU to read it for your self! It is not that hard.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:43:18 PM
Quote from: Peter on March 24, 2012, 07:38:49 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:05:25 PM
QuoteI have MANY MANY passages to prove what I KNOW to be fact, however this is something even after YEARS of study I still didn't understand until God showed me.
What I meant by this is, WHO these sons of Cain are today! I have known about the Sons of Cain for years, but just came into full understanding about a year and a half ago about who they are today! Go check out 1 Chron 2:55. Also they were with Israel when Baalam was hired to curse the children. We know this prophet-for-hire was not allowed to curse Israel, but look at his description of the future of the Kenites ( in the Hebrew this is Ben Kajin which literally translated means sons of Cain!) that accompanied them!
Numbers 24:21 21 And he looked on the Kenites, and took up his parable, and said, Strong is thy dwellingplace, and thou puttest thy nest in a ROCK. 22 Nevertheless the Kenite shall be wasted, until Asshur shall carry thee away captive. 23 And he took up his parable, and said, Alas, who shall live when God doeth this!
If you don't understand this then that is your problem.
See, your reference to a single tribe of Jews gave you/Murray away. Your reference to the Kenites confirmed it.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3150.0
LOL! So? Did I deny this?
Well when I explained to you that you couldn't have pulled your/Darby's futurist doctrine from thin air, you seemed to want to insist that somehow you came up with that whole fantasy on your own. Eariler your wrote:
Quote from: Michael2 on March 19, 2012, 07:44:23 PMJust because we both KNOW that there will be a future anti-christ you make the connection. And I can assure you my friend that is where the connection ends!
Which brings me to another question I asked that you ignored.
Quote from: Peter on March 19, 2012, 09:46:42 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 19, 2012, 07:44:23 PMI am willing to debate on a mature level when you are.
Then let us. Since I've only gotten glimpses of what you believe about Revelation and Daniel and the Olivet Discourse let me ask a broad question.
What portions of the book of Revelation - after chapter 3 - do you believe have been fulfilled?
QuoteWhat portions of the book of Revelation - after chapter 3 - do you believe have been fulfilled?
Why do you ask like this? What happens in Rev 3. Are you one of those that think John represents the Church. And when told to come up hither, that it is the rapture of the Church?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: Peter on March 24, 2012, 07:33:52 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 19, 2012, 09:20:44 PM
Michael2
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Maybe you could show us which one of the only 4 verses that use the term antichrist or antichrists tell us about your boogeyman antichrist that is still in our future?
Why do you disagree with what/where Paul told us the temple of God is?
Who are the elect that are enemies of the gospel?
What is the difference between the spirit of slumber and the spirit of antichrist?
Well if I can only pick of the four then it is OBVIOUS!
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
that antichrist shall COME. even now are there many!! See John knew the scripture teaches that there is a coming antichrist that is THE antichrist. But what he is saying in this verse is that there are NOW many that deny the Christ. John defines this for us in 1 John 2:22 so there is no guessing as to what his definition is. I pointed this out in another post to Pete that since there where no Muslim when this was written WHO do you think he is talking about. Which by the way Pete you didn't answer. I think you don't like the hard Questions. Anyway.. If we go into other scripture like Mat 24 and Mark 13 Luke 21 2 Thes 2 and then we can go into the minor and major prophets. This is what the word of God teaches us and I really don't see with all the explanation of scripture I have given you don't see it.
Why do you suppose it is that you still can't bring yourself to make a simple statement as to who you believe the father of Cain was?
KJV Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
Why can't you simply name who you believe Cain's father was?
Your kidding right?? It is Satan! Again it is NOT who I believe did you read all the scripture I gave you. It has nothing to do with me not wanting to SAY it! I wanted YOU to read it for your self! It is not that hard.
Not kidding. It's not funny. I wanted your declaration to immediately follow the truth of God's Word as to who the father of Cain was, so other anti-Zionists could see who they are in company with, along with the other usual suspects that Ive mentioned a few times like Nazis and skinheads who, by the way, also happen to appreciate Mr. Murray's false teaching. See why I cited the verses on good fruit?
And rather than acknowledge the plain truth of verse, the first time I entered it, you instead proof-texted a small blizzard of Murray's false teaching, right out of his playbook.
The reason I wanted to show the stark contrast between the truth of the verse and your exact opposite declaration, side-by-side, is because it is instructive as to what happens when a person first closes their eyes to conspicuous truth and instead follows a false prophet / false teacher instead.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:56:31 PM
QuoteWhat portions of the book of Revelation - after chapter 3 - do you believe have been fulfilled?
Why do you ask like this? What happens in Rev 3. Are you one of those that think John represents the Church. And when told to come up hither, that it is the rapture of the Church?
Seems you are so scripted by the false prophet you follow you are rendered incapable of simply answering questions.
Most Christians understand the first 3 chapters of Revelation are John addressing the church, while chapter 4 is the beginning of John's prophetic vision.
So what portions of Revelation, from chapter 4 until the end, do you believe have been fulfilled?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 19, 2012, 09:20:44 PM
Michael2
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Maybe you could show us which one of the only 4 verses that use the term antichrist or antichrists tell us about your boogeyman antichrist that is still in our future?
Why do you disagree with what/where Paul told us the temple of God is?
Who are the elect that are enemies of the gospel?
What is the difference between the spirit of slumber and the spirit of antichrist?
Well if I can only pick of the four then it is OBVIOUS!
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
that antichrist shall COME. even now are there many!! See John knew the scripture teaches that there is a coming antichrist that is THE antichrist. But what he is saying in this verse is that there are NOW many that deny the Christ. John defines this for us in 1 John 2:22 so there is no guessing as to what his definition is. I pointed this out in another post to Pete that since there where no Muslim when this was written WHO do you think he is talking about. Which by the way Pete you didn't answer. I think you don't like the hard Questions. Anyway.. If we go into other scripture like Mat 24 and Mark 13 Luke 21 2 Thes 2 and then we can go into the minor and major prophets. This is what the word of God teaches us and I really don't see with all the explanation of scripture I have given you don't see it.
So you don't believe what John told us when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world"? If the one we heard should come isn't the one we heard shall come maybe you could show us where it was they heard about this one?
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and
as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and
this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. The reason you can only pick from these 4 is simple they are the only 4 verses that speak of antichrist.
I also asked you about the temple of God, Where did Paul tell us it was? Why do you ignore what he told us and believe some man made building can be the temple of God?
Heb 8:1 - 2 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 08:29:46 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 19, 2012, 09:20:44 PM
Michael2
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Maybe you could show us which one of the only 4 verses that use the term antichrist or antichrists tell us about your boogeyman antichrist that is still in our future?
Why do you disagree with what/where Paul told us the temple of God is?
Who are the elect that are enemies of the gospel?
What is the difference between the spirit of slumber and the spirit of antichrist?
Well if I can only pick of the four then it is OBVIOUS!
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
that antichrist shall COME. even now are there many!! See John knew the scripture teaches that there is a coming antichrist that is THE antichrist. But what he is saying in this verse is that there are NOW many that deny the Christ. John defines this for us in 1 John 2:22 so there is no guessing as to what his definition is. I pointed this out in another post to Pete that since there where no Muslim when this was written WHO do you think he is talking about. Which by the way Pete you didn't answer. I think you don't like the hard Questions. Anyway.. If we go into other scripture like Mat 24 and Mark 13 Luke 21 2 Thes 2 and then we can go into the minor and major prophets. This is what the word of God teaches us and I really don't see with all the explanation of scripture I have given you don't see it.
So you don't believe what John told us when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world"? If the one we heard should come isn't the one we heard shall come maybe you could show us where it was they heard about this one?
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
The reason you can only pick from these 4 is simple they are the only 4 verses that speak of antichrist.
I also asked you about the temple of God, Where did Paul tell us it was? Why do you ignore what he told us and believe some man made building can be the temple of God?
Heb 8:1 - 2 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
No I agree with John 100%. You don't understand what John was saying!
Quote from: Peter on March 24, 2012, 08:28:03 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:56:31 PM
QuoteWhat portions of the book of Revelation - after chapter 3 - do you believe have been fulfilled?
Why do you ask like this? What happens in Rev 3. Are you one of those that think John represents the Church. And when told to come up hither, that it is the rapture of the Church?
Seems you are so scripted by the false prophet you follow you are rendered incapable of simply answering questions.
Most Christians understand the first 3 chapters of Revelation are John addressing the church, while chapter 4 is the beginning of John's prophetic vision.
So what portions of Revelation, from chapter 4 until the end, do you believe have been fulfilled?
False Prophet. That is FUNNY. Again Occams Razor! It is not wise to speak bad of real teachers of Gods word. Speaking Of answering Questions you disregard MANY yourself. So again do YOU believe that John represents the Church. Yes NO will sufice! As to timeline we are in the fifth seal! and It appears the 1st beast of Rev 13 is rising.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 08:52:09 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 08:29:46 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 19, 2012, 09:20:44 PM
Michael2
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Maybe you could show us which one of the only 4 verses that use the term antichrist or antichrists tell us about your boogeyman antichrist that is still in our future?
Why do you disagree with what/where Paul told us the temple of God is?
Who are the elect that are enemies of the gospel?
What is the difference between the spirit of slumber and the spirit of antichrist?
Well if I can only pick of the four then it is OBVIOUS!
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
that antichrist shall COME. even now are there many!! See John knew the scripture teaches that there is a coming antichrist that is THE antichrist. But what he is saying in this verse is that there are NOW many that deny the Christ. John defines this for us in 1 John 2:22 so there is no guessing as to what his definition is. I pointed this out in another post to Pete that since there where no Muslim when this was written WHO do you think he is talking about. Which by the way Pete you didn't answer. I think you don't like the hard Questions. Anyway.. If we go into other scripture like Mat 24 and Mark 13 Luke 21 2 Thes 2 and then we can go into the minor and major prophets. This is what the word of God teaches us and I really don't see with all the explanation of scripture I have given you don't see it.
So you don't believe what John told us when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world"? If the one we heard should come isn't the one we heard shall come maybe you could show us where it was they heard about this one?
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
The reason you can only pick from these 4 is simple they are the only 4 verses that speak of antichrist.
I also asked you about the temple of God, Where did Paul tell us it was? Why do you ignore what he told us and believe some man made building can be the temple of God?
Heb 8:1 - 2 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
No I agree with John 100%. You don't understand what John was saying!
If Jihn was not referring to the antichrist from 1John2:18 when he said "
this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. " in 1John4:3 Then where is it we heard this one shall come? Book chapter and verse please?
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 08:59:04 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 08:52:09 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 08:29:46 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 19, 2012, 09:20:44 PM
Michael2
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Maybe you could show us which one of the only 4 verses that use the term antichrist or antichrists tell us about your boogeyman antichrist that is still in our future?
Why do you disagree with what/where Paul told us the temple of God is?
Who are the elect that are enemies of the gospel?
What is the difference between the spirit of slumber and the spirit of antichrist?
Well if I can only pick of the four then it is OBVIOUS!
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
that antichrist shall COME. even now are there many!! See John knew the scripture teaches that there is a coming antichrist that is THE antichrist. But what he is saying in this verse is that there are NOW many that deny the Christ. John defines this for us in 1 John 2:22 so there is no guessing as to what his definition is. I pointed this out in another post to Pete that since there where no Muslim when this was written WHO do you think he is talking about. Which by the way Pete you didn't answer. I think you don't like the hard Questions. Anyway.. If we go into other scripture like Mat 24 and Mark 13 Luke 21 2 Thes 2 and then we can go into the minor and major prophets. This is what the word of God teaches us and I really don't see with all the explanation of scripture I have given you don't see it.
So you don't believe what John told us when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world"? If the one we heard should come isn't the one we heard shall come maybe you could show us where it was they heard about this one?
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
The reason you can only pick from these 4 is simple they are the only 4 verses that speak of antichrist.
I also asked you about the temple of God, Where did Paul tell us it was? Why do you ignore what he told us and believe some man made building can be the temple of God?
Heb 8:1 - 2 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
No I agree with John 100%. You don't understand what John was saying!
If Jihn was not referring to the antichrist from 1John2:18 when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. " in 1John4:3 Then where is it we heard this one shall come? Book chapter and verse please?
This is getting redundant! Dan 9:27 Mat 24:15 2 Thes 2:3
Watch REAL close
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:If you can't understand the son of Perdition IS SATAN then you are already deceived. If you can't see that Jesus HIMSELF will destroy this one you are deceived. Understand? Guys this stuff is pretty simple if you will listen to the word of God. Quit listening to men and trust the Lord. He has foretold us all things. Just like God told Noah exactly what would happen in his day here Paul is telling us and Jesus told us in the Olivet Discourse!
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 09:12:28 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 08:59:04 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 08:52:09 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 08:29:46 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 19, 2012, 09:20:44 PM
Michael2
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Maybe you could show us which one of the only 4 verses that use the term antichrist or antichrists tell us about your boogeyman antichrist that is still in our future?
Why do you disagree with what/where Paul told us the temple of God is?
Who are the elect that are enemies of the gospel?
What is the difference between the spirit of slumber and the spirit of antichrist?
Well if I can only pick of the four then it is OBVIOUS!
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
that antichrist shall COME. even now are there many!! See John knew the scripture teaches that there is a coming antichrist that is THE antichrist. But what he is saying in this verse is that there are NOW many that deny the Christ. John defines this for us in 1 John 2:22 so there is no guessing as to what his definition is. I pointed this out in another post to Pete that since there where no Muslim when this was written WHO do you think he is talking about. Which by the way Pete you didn't answer. I think you don't like the hard Questions. Anyway.. If we go into other scripture like Mat 24 and Mark 13 Luke 21 2 Thes 2 and then we can go into the minor and major prophets. This is what the word of God teaches us and I really don't see with all the explanation of scripture I have given you don't see it.
So you don't believe what John told us when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world"? If the one we heard should come isn't the one we heard shall come maybe you could show us where it was they heard about this one?
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
The reason you can only pick from these 4 is simple they are the only 4 verses that speak of antichrist.
I also asked you about the temple of God, Where did Paul tell us it was? Why do you ignore what he told us and believe some man made building can be the temple of God?
Heb 8:1 - 2 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
No I agree with John 100%. You don't understand what John was saying!
If Jihn was not referring to the antichrist from 1John2:18 when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. " in 1John4:3 Then where is it we heard this one shall come? Book chapter and verse please?
This is getting redundant! Dan 9:27 Mat 24:15 2 Thes 2:3
Watch REAL close
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
If you can't understand the son of Perdition IS SATAN then you are already deceived. If you can't see that Jesus HIMSELF will destroy this one you are deceived. Understand? Guys this stuff is pretty simple if you will listen to the word of God. Quit listening to men and trust the Lord. He has foretold us all things. Just like God told Noah exactly what would happen in his day here Paul is telling us and Jesus told us in the Olivet Discourse!
parrotting your same doctrinal argument over and over again won't make it any more correct now then the first time you used it. As has already been demonstrated the abomination of desolation is an it (an it is an inanimate object) that is set up or standing while an antichrist (per Scripture) is an idividual or spirit that denies Christ/God and there are many that have been in the world since John wrote the only 4 verses that use the term. Now if you want to say the man of sin is your end time boogieman aka "the Antichrist" well then friend you made the claim the burden of proof is on you. Just quoting verses does not prove your intepretation is correct. Show me a Scripturally sound study using sound hermeneutic principles not a doctrinally based argument that is Scripturally bankrupt.
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 09:26:14 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 09:12:28 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 08:59:04 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 08:52:09 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 08:29:46 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 19, 2012, 09:20:44 PM
Michael2
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Maybe you could show us which one of the only 4 verses that use the term antichrist or antichrists tell us about your boogeyman antichrist that is still in our future?
Why do you disagree with what/where Paul told us the temple of God is?
Who are the elect that are enemies of the gospel?
What is the difference between the spirit of slumber and the spirit of antichrist?
Well if I can only pick of the four then it is OBVIOUS!
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
that antichrist shall COME. even now are there many!! See John knew the scripture teaches that there is a coming antichrist that is THE antichrist. But what he is saying in this verse is that there are NOW many that deny the Christ. John defines this for us in 1 John 2:22 so there is no guessing as to what his definition is. I pointed this out in another post to Pete that since there where no Muslim when this was written WHO do you think he is talking about. Which by the way Pete you didn't answer. I think you don't like the hard Questions. Anyway.. If we go into other scripture like Mat 24 and Mark 13 Luke 21 2 Thes 2 and then we can go into the minor and major prophets. This is what the word of God teaches us and I really don't see with all the explanation of scripture I have given you don't see it.
So you don't believe what John told us when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world"? If the one we heard should come isn't the one we heard shall come maybe you could show us where it was they heard about this one?
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
The reason you can only pick from these 4 is simple they are the only 4 verses that speak of antichrist.
I also asked you about the temple of God, Where did Paul tell us it was? Why do you ignore what he told us and believe some man made building can be the temple of God?
Heb 8:1 - 2 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
No I agree with John 100%. You don't understand what John was saying!
If Jihn was not referring to the antichrist from 1John2:18 when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. " in 1John4:3 Then where is it we heard this one shall come? Book chapter and verse please?
This is getting redundant! Dan 9:27 Mat 24:15 2 Thes 2:3
Watch REAL close
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
If you can't understand the son of Perdition IS SATAN then you are already deceived. If you can't see that Jesus HIMSELF will destroy this one you are deceived. Understand? Guys this stuff is pretty simple if you will listen to the word of God. Quit listening to men and trust the Lord. He has foretold us all things. Just like God told Noah exactly what would happen in his day here Paul is telling us and Jesus told us in the Olivet Discourse!
parrotting your same doctrinal argument over and over again won't make it any more correct now then the first time you used it. As has already been demonstrated the abomination of desolation is an it (an it is an inanimate object) that is set up or standing while an antichrist (per Scripture) is an idividual or spirit that denies Christ/God and there are many that have been in the world since John wrote the only 4 verses that use the term. Now if you want to say the man of sin is your end time boogieman aka "the Antichrist" well then friend you made the claim the burden of proof is on you. Just quoting verses does not prove your intepretation is correct. Show me a Scripturally sound study using sound hermeneutic principles not a doctrinally based argument that is Scripturally bankrupt.
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
You think this is an IT?
Also your wrong. I did not make the claim, Paul made this one and he is correct. If we are not to quote scripture to prove a point in the word of God then what exactly are we to quote? I really wouldn't think this would need anymore explaining. This is OBVIOUS!
The Abomination of Desolation. Do you know what those words mean? We have went over this as well. and the word "IT" from Greek can be he him she her or it. Put into context with the rest of scripture will only leave you with ONE answer. And one more time according to Paul. Jesus will destroy the one setting in the temple claiming to be God when he RETURNS. Now you tell me if this is NOT the antichrist. Who is it?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 09:12:28 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 08:59:04 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 08:52:09 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 08:29:46 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 19, 2012, 09:20:44 PM
Michael2
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Maybe you could show us which one of the only 4 verses that use the term antichrist or antichrists tell us about your boogeyman antichrist that is still in our future?
Why do you disagree with what/where Paul told us the temple of God is?
Who are the elect that are enemies of the gospel?
What is the difference between the spirit of slumber and the spirit of antichrist?
Well if I can only pick of the four then it is OBVIOUS!
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
that antichrist shall COME. even now are there many!! See John knew the scripture teaches that there is a coming antichrist that is THE antichrist. But what he is saying in this verse is that there are NOW many that deny the Christ. John defines this for us in 1 John 2:22 so there is no guessing as to what his definition is. I pointed this out in another post to Pete that since there where no Muslim when this was written WHO do you think he is talking about. Which by the way Pete you didn't answer. I think you don't like the hard Questions. Anyway.. If we go into other scripture like Mat 24 and Mark 13 Luke 21 2 Thes 2 and then we can go into the minor and major prophets. This is what the word of God teaches us and I really don't see with all the explanation of scripture I have given you don't see it.
So you don't believe what John told us when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world"? If the one we heard should come isn't the one we heard shall come maybe you could show us where it was they heard about this one?
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
The reason you can only pick from these 4 is simple they are the only 4 verses that speak of antichrist.
I also asked you about the temple of God, Where did Paul tell us it was? Why do you ignore what he told us and believe some man made building can be the temple of God?
Heb 8:1 - 2 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
No I agree with John 100%. You don't understand what John was saying!
If Jihn was not referring to the antichrist from 1John2:18 when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. " in 1John4:3 Then where is it we heard this one shall come? Book chapter and verse please?
This is getting redundant! Dan 9:27 Mat 24:15 2 Thes 2:3
Watch REAL close
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
If you can't understand the son of Perdition IS SATAN then you are already deceived. If you can't see that Jesus HIMSELF will destroy this one you are deceived. Understand? Guys this stuff is pretty simple if you will listen to the word of God. Quit listening to men and trust the Lord. He has foretold us all things. Just like God told Noah exactly what would happen in his day here Paul is telling us and Jesus told us in the Olivet Discourse!
You are jumping into futurist doctrine rather than addressing his point. Piling another of Darby's futurist false presumptions onto an earlier misunderstanding doesn't make it right. Maybe this will help:
"
ye have heard that antichrist shall come"
"this is that [spirit] of antichrist,
ye have heard that it should come"
All of those verses talk about "that spirit of antichrist"
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 09:34:34 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 09:26:14 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 09:12:28 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 08:59:04 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 08:52:09 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 08:29:46 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 19, 2012, 09:20:44 PM
Michael2
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Maybe you could show us which one of the only 4 verses that use the term antichrist or antichrists tell us about your boogeyman antichrist that is still in our future?
Why do you disagree with what/where Paul told us the temple of God is?
Who are the elect that are enemies of the gospel?
What is the difference between the spirit of slumber and the spirit of antichrist?
Well if I can only pick of the four then it is OBVIOUS!
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
that antichrist shall COME. even now are there many!! See John knew the scripture teaches that there is a coming antichrist that is THE antichrist. But what he is saying in this verse is that there are NOW many that deny the Christ. John defines this for us in 1 John 2:22 so there is no guessing as to what his definition is. I pointed this out in another post to Pete that since there where no Muslim when this was written WHO do you think he is talking about. Which by the way Pete you didn't answer. I think you don't like the hard Questions. Anyway.. If we go into other scripture like Mat 24 and Mark 13 Luke 21 2 Thes 2 and then we can go into the minor and major prophets. This is what the word of God teaches us and I really don't see with all the explanation of scripture I have given you don't see it.
So you don't believe what John told us when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world"? If the one we heard should come isn't the one we heard shall come maybe you could show us where it was they heard about this one?
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
The reason you can only pick from these 4 is simple they are the only 4 verses that speak of antichrist.
I also asked you about the temple of God, Where did Paul tell us it was? Why do you ignore what he told us and believe some man made building can be the temple of God?
Heb 8:1 - 2 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
No I agree with John 100%. You don't understand what John was saying!
If Jihn was not referring to the antichrist from 1John2:18 when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. " in 1John4:3 Then where is it we heard this one shall come? Book chapter and verse please?
This is getting redundant! Dan 9:27 Mat 24:15 2 Thes 2:3
Watch REAL close
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
If you can't understand the son of Perdition IS SATAN then you are already deceived. If you can't see that Jesus HIMSELF will destroy this one you are deceived. Understand? Guys this stuff is pretty simple if you will listen to the word of God. Quit listening to men and trust the Lord. He has foretold us all things. Just like God told Noah exactly what would happen in his day here Paul is telling us and Jesus told us in the Olivet Discourse!
parrotting your same doctrinal argument over and over again won't make it any more correct now then the first time you used it. As has already been demonstrated the abomination of desolation is an it (an it is an inanimate object) that is set up or standing while an antichrist (per Scripture) is an idividual or spirit that denies Christ/God and there are many that have been in the world since John wrote the only 4 verses that use the term. Now if you want to say the man of sin is your end time boogieman aka "the Antichrist" well then friend you made the claim the burden of proof is on you. Just quoting verses does not prove your intepretation is correct. Show me a Scripturally sound study using sound hermeneutic principles not a doctrinally based argument that is Scripturally bankrupt.
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
You think this is an IT?
Also your wrong. I did not make the claim, Paul made this one and he is correct. If we are not to quote scripture to prove a point in the word of God then what exactly are we to quote? I really wouldn't think this would need anymore explaining. This is OBVIOUS!
The Abomination of Desolation. Do you know what those words mean? We have went over this as well. and the word "IT" from Greek can be he him she her or it. Put into context with the rest of scripture will only leave you with ONE answer. And one more time according to Paul. Jesus will destroy the one setting in the temple claiming to be God when he RETURNS. Now you tell me if this is NOT the antichrist. Who is it?
For starters Jesus referred us to Daniel for understanding on the abomination of desolation not Paul. Yes "it" can refer to a person when the sex is unkown, are you implying you don't know the sex of a man? Also the temple of God is not a man made temple in Jerusalem but the body of a believer or the corporate body. Can you show where Paul said the temple of God is a man made building? Wasn't Paul the one who told us about the man of sin, the same Paul who told us the body of the believer or the corporate body is the temple of God? Why do you ignore what Paul says to stand by the teachings of a false prophet who predicted Armagedon in 1985 and as we can all see that didn't happen. Do you really trust the teachings of a false prophet?
Quote from: Peter on March 24, 2012, 09:39:36 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 09:12:28 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 08:59:04 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 08:52:09 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 08:29:46 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 19, 2012, 09:20:44 PM
Michael2
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Maybe you could show us which one of the only 4 verses that use the term antichrist or antichrists tell us about your boogeyman antichrist that is still in our future?
Why do you disagree with what/where Paul told us the temple of God is?
Who are the elect that are enemies of the gospel?
What is the difference between the spirit of slumber and the spirit of antichrist?
Well if I can only pick of the four then it is OBVIOUS!
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
that antichrist shall COME. even now are there many!! See John knew the scripture teaches that there is a coming antichrist that is THE antichrist. But what he is saying in this verse is that there are NOW many that deny the Christ. John defines this for us in 1 John 2:22 so there is no guessing as to what his definition is. I pointed this out in another post to Pete that since there where no Muslim when this was written WHO do you think he is talking about. Which by the way Pete you didn't answer. I think you don't like the hard Questions. Anyway.. If we go into other scripture like Mat 24 and Mark 13 Luke 21 2 Thes 2 and then we can go into the minor and major prophets. This is what the word of God teaches us and I really don't see with all the explanation of scripture I have given you don't see it.
So you don't believe what John told us when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world"? If the one we heard should come isn't the one we heard shall come maybe you could show us where it was they heard about this one?
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
The reason you can only pick from these 4 is simple they are the only 4 verses that speak of antichrist.
I also asked you about the temple of God, Where did Paul tell us it was? Why do you ignore what he told us and believe some man made building can be the temple of God?
Heb 8:1 - 2 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
No I agree with John 100%. You don't understand what John was saying!
If Jihn was not referring to the antichrist from 1John2:18 when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. " in 1John4:3 Then where is it we heard this one shall come? Book chapter and verse please?
This is getting redundant! Dan 9:27 Mat 24:15 2 Thes 2:3
Watch REAL close
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
If you can't understand the son of Perdition IS SATAN then you are already deceived. If you can't see that Jesus HIMSELF will destroy this one you are deceived. Understand? Guys this stuff is pretty simple if you will listen to the word of God. Quit listening to men and trust the Lord. He has foretold us all things. Just like God told Noah exactly what would happen in his day here Paul is telling us and Jesus told us in the Olivet Discourse!
You are jumping into futurist doctrine rather than addressing his point. Piling another of Darby's futurist false presumptions onto an earlier misunderstanding doesn't make it right. Maybe this will help:
"ye have heard that antichrist shall come"
"this is that [spirit] of antichrist, ye have heard that it should come"
All of those verses talk about "that spirit of antichrist"
I absolutely DID address his point. But because it don't fit your way of thinking you reject it.
Ellis Skolfeild was asked about the son of perdition once! His answer? I don't know! Fact.
Also I have asked Both of you. WHO was John referring to as Anti Christ in that day? Go ahead and say it. I know you know the answer. LOL That don't really fit your way of thinking either does it?
QuoteFor starters Jesus referred us to Daniel for understanding on the abomination of desolation not Paul. Yes "it" can refer to a person when the sex is unkown, are you implying you don't know the sex of a man? Also the temple of God is not a man made temple in Jerusalem but the body of a believer or the corporate body. Can you show where Paul said the temple of God is a man made building? Wasn't Paul the one who told us about the man of sin, the same Paul who told us the body of the believer or the corporate body is the temple of God? Why do you ignore what Paul says to stand by the teachings of a false prophet who predicted Armagedon in 1985 and as we can all see that didn't happen. Do you really trust the teachings of a false prophet?
Do you have a Bible?? Did you read Daniel 9:27? HE
HE It DOES refer to what ever is being discussed. CONTEXT is King. The temple can be physical OR spiritual we have been over this! No I do not ignore what Paul teaches you do! Murray knows more Bible than you two will ever know! AGAIN, I hate redundancy, Occams Razor. MANY stand in line to try and destroy teachers of God's word. You wouldn't be the first that has failed at this.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 09:46:48 PM
Quote from: Peter on March 24, 2012, 09:39:36 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 09:12:28 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 08:59:04 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 08:52:09 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 08:29:46 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 19, 2012, 09:20:44 PM
Michael2
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Maybe you could show us which one of the only 4 verses that use the term antichrist or antichrists tell us about your boogeyman antichrist that is still in our future?
Why do you disagree with what/where Paul told us the temple of God is?
Who are the elect that are enemies of the gospel?
What is the difference between the spirit of slumber and the spirit of antichrist?
Well if I can only pick of the four then it is OBVIOUS!
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
that antichrist shall COME. even now are there many!! See John knew the scripture teaches that there is a coming antichrist that is THE antichrist. But what he is saying in this verse is that there are NOW many that deny the Christ. John defines this for us in 1 John 2:22 so there is no guessing as to what his definition is. I pointed this out in another post to Pete that since there where no Muslim when this was written WHO do you think he is talking about. Which by the way Pete you didn't answer. I think you don't like the hard Questions. Anyway.. If we go into other scripture like Mat 24 and Mark 13 Luke 21 2 Thes 2 and then we can go into the minor and major prophets. This is what the word of God teaches us and I really don't see with all the explanation of scripture I have given you don't see it.
So you don't believe what John told us when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world"? If the one we heard should come isn't the one we heard shall come maybe you could show us where it was they heard about this one?
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
The reason you can only pick from these 4 is simple they are the only 4 verses that speak of antichrist.
I also asked you about the temple of God, Where did Paul tell us it was? Why do you ignore what he told us and believe some man made building can be the temple of God?
Heb 8:1 - 2 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
No I agree with John 100%. You don't understand what John was saying!
If Jihn was not referring to the antichrist from 1John2:18 when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. " in 1John4:3 Then where is it we heard this one shall come? Book chapter and verse please?
This is getting redundant! Dan 9:27 Mat 24:15 2 Thes 2:3
Watch REAL close
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
If you can't understand the son of Perdition IS SATAN then you are already deceived. If you can't see that Jesus HIMSELF will destroy this one you are deceived. Understand? Guys this stuff is pretty simple if you will listen to the word of God. Quit listening to men and trust the Lord. He has foretold us all things. Just like God told Noah exactly what would happen in his day here Paul is telling us and Jesus told us in the Olivet Discourse!
You are jumping into futurist doctrine rather than addressing his point. Piling another of Darby's futurist false presumptions onto an earlier misunderstanding doesn't make it right. Maybe this will help:
"ye have heard that antichrist shall come"
"this is that [spirit] of antichrist, ye have heard that it should come"
All of those verses talk about "that spirit of antichrist"
I absolutely DID address his point. But because it don't fit your way of thinking you reject it.
Ellis Skolfeild was asked about the son of perdition once! His answer? I don't know! Fact.
Also I have asked Both of you. WHO was John referring to as Anti Christ in that day? Go ahead and say it. I know you know the answer. LOL That don't really fit your way of thinking either does it?
As I have already pointed out parrotting the same old doctrinally based argument does not prove your point. Where does Scripture say the man of sin is your boogieman aka the antichrist? Where does Paul tell us the temple of God is? Why do you ignore what Paul tells us yet believe a known false prophet?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 09:53:59 PM
QuoteFor starters Jesus referred us to Daniel for understanding on the abomination of desolation not Paul. Yes "it" can refer to a person when the sex is unkown, are you implying you don't know the sex of a man? Also the temple of God is not a man made temple in Jerusalem but the body of a believer or the corporate body. Can you show where Paul said the temple of God is a man made building? Wasn't Paul the one who told us about the man of sin, the same Paul who told us the body of the believer or the corporate body is the temple of God? Why do you ignore what Paul says to stand by the teachings of a false prophet who predicted Armagedon in 1985 and as we can all see that didn't happen. Do you really trust the teachings of a false prophet?
Do you have a Bible?? Did you read Daniel 9:27? HE HE It DOES refer to what ever is being discussed. CONTEXT is King. The temple can be physical OR spiritual we have been over this! No I do not ignore what Paul teaches you do! Murray knows more Bible than you two will ever know! AGAIN, I hate redundancy, Occams Razor. MANY stand in line to try and destroy teachers of God's word. You wouldn't be the first that has failed at this.
The he in Dan9:27 is not the abomination that makes desolate.
He is the one that sets it up. Where did Paul, the one who wrote the verse in question tell us the temple of God was? How can a building the Jews build be the temple of God when Christ Himself declared their temple desolate approximately 2000 years ago, you know 40 or so years before it was destroyed? No ones trying to destroy teachers of God's word but we have already proven Arnold Murray to be a false prophet/teacher.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 09:46:48 PM
Quote from: Peter on March 24, 2012, 09:39:36 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 09:12:28 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 08:59:04 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 08:52:09 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 08:29:46 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 19, 2012, 09:20:44 PM
Michael2
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Maybe you could show us which one of the only 4 verses that use the term antichrist or antichrists tell us about your boogeyman antichrist that is still in our future?
Why do you disagree with what/where Paul told us the temple of God is?
Who are the elect that are enemies of the gospel?
What is the difference between the spirit of slumber and the spirit of antichrist?
Well if I can only pick of the four then it is OBVIOUS!
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
that antichrist shall COME. even now are there many!! See John knew the scripture teaches that there is a coming antichrist that is THE antichrist. But what he is saying in this verse is that there are NOW many that deny the Christ. John defines this for us in 1 John 2:22 so there is no guessing as to what his definition is. I pointed this out in another post to Pete that since there where no Muslim when this was written WHO do you think he is talking about. Which by the way Pete you didn't answer. I think you don't like the hard Questions. Anyway.. If we go into other scripture like Mat 24 and Mark 13 Luke 21 2 Thes 2 and then we can go into the minor and major prophets. This is what the word of God teaches us and I really don't see with all the explanation of scripture I have given you don't see it.
So you don't believe what John told us when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world"? If the one we heard should come isn't the one we heard shall come maybe you could show us where it was they heard about this one?
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
The reason you can only pick from these 4 is simple they are the only 4 verses that speak of antichrist.
I also asked you about the temple of God, Where did Paul tell us it was? Why do you ignore what he told us and believe some man made building can be the temple of God?
Heb 8:1 - 2 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
No I agree with John 100%. You don't understand what John was saying!
If Jihn was not referring to the antichrist from 1John2:18 when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. " in 1John4:3 Then where is it we heard this one shall come? Book chapter and verse please?
This is getting redundant! Dan 9:27 Mat 24:15 2 Thes 2:3
Watch REAL close
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
If you can't understand the son of Perdition IS SATAN then you are already deceived. If you can't see that Jesus HIMSELF will destroy this one you are deceived. Understand? Guys this stuff is pretty simple if you will listen to the word of God. Quit listening to men and trust the Lord. He has foretold us all things. Just like God told Noah exactly what would happen in his day here Paul is telling us and Jesus told us in the Olivet Discourse!
You are jumping into futurist doctrine rather than addressing his point. Piling another of Darby's futurist false presumptions onto an earlier misunderstanding doesn't make it right. Maybe this will help:
"ye have heard that antichrist shall come"
"this is that [spirit] of antichrist, ye have heard that it should come"
All of those verses talk about "that spirit of antichrist"
I absolutely DID address his point. But because it don't fit your way of thinking you reject it.
Ellis Skolfeild was asked about the son of perdition once! His answer? I don't know! Fact.
That is a filthy bold faced lie, and it wouldn't surprise me if you didn't hear it from Murray, in an effort to keep you away from truth and in his cult. Here's just one instance of brother Skolfield on "that man of sin" from his "Antichrist Myth" PDF.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/antichrist_myth.htm#page_4
The ironic part is that the reason you can't see it, is because you are looking for John Darby's boogieman. I already told you we are to look for that man of sin in the ONLY "temple of God", that is within the corporate body of Christ. Within the church.
Surely you can see Satan working in the ecumenical and religious pluralism and such as the "chrislam" movement. Well that goes for Mr. Murray and his wacky myriad of false doctrines including serpent seed, Kenites, and false prophecies of the antichrist in the 1980s and others.
You are so convinced that man of sin is something of the future that Satan blinded you from seeing him when he is right there in your church. Now just look at some more of the passage you misapplied to your boogieman "the" "Antichrist".
Now revisit the post in which you rejected the plain truth scripture and instead posted a little blizzard of Murray's false doctrine. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3128.msg13046#msg13046
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 09:46:48 PM
Also I have asked Both of you. WHO was John referring to as Anti Christ in that day? Go ahead and say it. I know you know the answer. LOL That don't really fit your way of thinking either does it?
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 09:57:31 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 09:46:48 PM
Quote from: Peter on March 24, 2012, 09:39:36 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 09:12:28 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 08:59:04 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 08:52:09 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 08:29:46 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 19, 2012, 09:20:44 PM
Michael2
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Maybe you could show us which one of the only 4 verses that use the term antichrist or antichrists tell us about your boogeyman antichrist that is still in our future?
Why do you disagree with what/where Paul told us the temple of God is?
Who are the elect that are enemies of the gospel?
What is the difference between the spirit of slumber and the spirit of antichrist?
Well if I can only pick of the four then it is OBVIOUS!
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
that antichrist shall COME. even now are there many!! See John knew the scripture teaches that there is a coming antichrist that is THE antichrist. But what he is saying in this verse is that there are NOW many that deny the Christ. John defines this for us in 1 John 2:22 so there is no guessing as to what his definition is. I pointed this out in another post to Pete that since there where no Muslim when this was written WHO do you think he is talking about. Which by the way Pete you didn't answer. I think you don't like the hard Questions. Anyway.. If we go into other scripture like Mat 24 and Mark 13 Luke 21 2 Thes 2 and then we can go into the minor and major prophets. This is what the word of God teaches us and I really don't see with all the explanation of scripture I have given you don't see it.
So you don't believe what John told us when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world"? If the one we heard should come isn't the one we heard shall come maybe you could show us where it was they heard about this one?
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
The reason you can only pick from these 4 is simple they are the only 4 verses that speak of antichrist.
I also asked you about the temple of God, Where did Paul tell us it was? Why do you ignore what he told us and believe some man made building can be the temple of God?
Heb 8:1 - 2 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
No I agree with John 100%. You don't understand what John was saying!
If Jihn was not referring to the antichrist from 1John2:18 when he said "this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. " in 1John4:3 Then where is it we heard this one shall come? Book chapter and verse please?
This is getting redundant! Dan 9:27 Mat 24:15 2 Thes 2:3
Watch REAL close
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
If you can't understand the son of Perdition IS SATAN then you are already deceived. If you can't see that Jesus HIMSELF will destroy this one you are deceived. Understand? Guys this stuff is pretty simple if you will listen to the word of God. Quit listening to men and trust the Lord. He has foretold us all things. Just like God told Noah exactly what would happen in his day here Paul is telling us and Jesus told us in the Olivet Discourse!
You are jumping into futurist doctrine rather than addressing his point. Piling another of Darby's futurist false presumptions onto an earlier misunderstanding doesn't make it right. Maybe this will help:
"ye have heard that antichrist shall come"
"this is that [spirit] of antichrist, ye have heard that it should come"
All of those verses talk about "that spirit of antichrist"
I absolutely DID address his point. But because it don't fit your way of thinking you reject it.
Ellis Skolfeild was asked about the son of perdition once! His answer? I don't know! Fact.
Also I have asked Both of you. WHO was John referring to as Anti Christ in that day? Go ahead and say it. I know you know the answer. LOL That don't really fit your way of thinking either does it?
As I have already pointed out parrotting the same old doctrinally based argument does not prove your point. Where does Scripture say the man of sin is your boogieman aka the antichrist? Where does Paul tell us the temple of God is? Why do you ignore what Paul tells us yet believe a known false prophet?
speaking of parroting!!! Here is a fact for you. YOU in fact deny the word of God. You can't take what fits you or makes your way of thinking work! I have already told you that Temple is physical or spiritual. I think you just run out of things to say didn't you? Daniel refers to the "boogieman" LOL as HE. POint Blank. May be you can read that different some how. I see it as Satan. Also are you saying that Paul's writing is not inspired?? That is dangerous ground. Do you think he is a false prophet as well?? If NO. Then what he said must be correct then RIGHT? HE said the "boogieman" will be destroyed with the brightness of Jesus Coming? Seems pretty simple to me. Now if you would rather how about Mark 13
14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet
(Dan 9:27), standing where it ( here along with Dan 9:27 should be HE and Dr. Moffit does translate this HE!) ought not, (let him that readeth understand,)
then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. These verses refer to how urgent the situation is. What Jesus is saying is when you see this, The abomination from Dan, the end is that close. i.e. Jesus return.
17But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
this reference is lets you know for a fact that the abomination is a HE. He is warning you not to play the harlot spiritually with "IT".
18And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. 21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
do you see that? after
that tribulation the tribulation of "IT" then Jesus will return like Paul said. Jesus will consume HIM (the abomination, the one sitting in the temple claiming to be God) with the brightness of his coming.
27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
There is sound doctrine. You make this harder than it is. One more thing prophecy is NOT of private interpretation. The word of God is pretty plain about this.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 09:46:48 PM
Ellis Skolfeild was asked about the son of perdition once! His answer? I don't know! Fact.
Filthy lies no surprise coming from the follower of the false prophet/false teacher Murray - another "man of sin" in the temple of God.
http://www.ellisskolfield.net/essays
2 Timothy 3:1
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous,
boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3
Without natural affection, trucebreakers,
false accusers, incontinent, fierce,
despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
QuoteThat is a filthy bold faced lie, and it wouldn't surprise me if you didn't hear it from Murray in an effort to keep you away from truth and in his cult. Here's just a small part of brother Skolfield on "that man of sin"
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/antichrist_myth.htm#page_4
The ironic part is that the reason you can't see it, is because you are looking for John Darby's boogieman. I already told you we are to look for that man of sin in the ONLY "temple of God", that is within the corporate body of Christ. Within the church.
Surely you can see Satan working in the ecumenical and religious pluralism and such as the "chrislam" movement. Well that goes for Mr. Murray and his wacky myriad of false doctrines including serpent seed, Kenites, and false prophecies of the antichrist in the 1980s and others.
You are so convinced that man of sin is something of the future that Satan blinded you from seeing him when he is right there in your church. Now just look at some more of the passage you misapplied to your boogieman "the" "Antichrist".
Now revisit the post in which you rejected the plain truth scripture and instead posted a little blizzard of Murray's false doctrine. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3128.msg13046#msg13046
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
If I were you I would throw the Skolfeild away and stick to the word of God. A spirit!! No, it is NOT a spirit. This is dead wrong. In EVERY book you read on the subject, I am talking every book in the Word of GOD not secular like you read, the antichrist, man of sin, the abomination of desolation, apollyon, and abaddon, is very real. You would do well to listen very carefully to the verse you quoted 2 Th 2:10!
Speaking of Apollyon. Have you ever read Rev 9:11? So you think this has already happened too? What does Skolfeild say about him?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 10:30:01 PM
QuoteThat is a filthy bold faced lie, and it wouldn't surprise me if you didn't hear it from Murray in an effort to keep you away from truth and in his cult. Here's just a small part of brother Skolfield on "that man of sin"
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/antichrist_myth.htm#page_4
The ironic part is that the reason you can't see it, is because you are looking for John Darby's boogieman. I already told you we are to look for that man of sin in the ONLY "temple of God", that is within the corporate body of Christ. Within the church.
Surely you can see Satan working in the ecumenical and religious pluralism and such as the "chrislam" movement. Well that goes for Mr. Murray and his wacky myriad of false doctrines including serpent seed, Kenites, and false prophecies of the antichrist in the 1980s and others.
You are so convinced that man of sin is something of the future that Satan blinded you from seeing him when he is right there in your church. Now just look at some more of the passage you misapplied to your boogieman "the" "Antichrist".
Now revisit the post in which you rejected the plain truth scripture and instead posted a little blizzard of Murray's false doctrine. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3128.msg13046#msg13046
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
If I were you I would throw the Skolfeild away and stick to the word of God. A spirit!! No, it is NOT a spirit. This is dead wrong. In EVERY book you read on the subject, I am talking every book in the Word of GOD not secular like you read, the antichrist, man of sin, the abomination of desolation, apollyon, and abaddon, is very real. You would do well to listen very carefully to the verse you quoted 2 Th 2:10!
Speaking of Apollyon. Have you ever read Rev 9:11? So you think this has already happened too? What does Skolfeild say about him?
Any surprise that you didn't repent from your bold faced lie? Not considering how you are described in the verses I quoted from 2Timothy. Which also instruct me to turn away from such as you. As I do turn away I recommend that you Google the liar that you follow.
We will continue to expose Murray and his false doctrine and false prophecies in this forum, as a quick Google the the heretic's name demonstrates, the rest of the Christian community does as well.
Don't you wonder why it is that the Nazis and skinheads go for his false doctrine so?
Quote from: Marturion on March 24, 2012, 10:05:14 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 09:53:59 PM
QuoteFor starters Jesus referred us to Daniel for understanding on the abomination of desolation not Paul. Yes "it" can refer to a person when the sex is unkown, are you implying you don't know the sex of a man? Also the temple of God is not a man made temple in Jerusalem but the body of a believer or the corporate body. Can you show where Paul said the temple of God is a man made building? Wasn't Paul the one who told us about the man of sin, the same Paul who told us the body of the believer or the corporate body is the temple of God? Why do you ignore what Paul says to stand by the teachings of a false prophet who predicted Armagedon in 1985 and as we can all see that didn't happen. Do you really trust the teachings of a false prophet?
Do you have a Bible?? Did you read Daniel 9:27? HE HE It DOES refer to what ever is being discussed. CONTEXT is King. The temple can be physical OR spiritual we have been over this! No I do not ignore what Paul teaches you do! Murray knows more Bible than you two will ever know! AGAIN, I hate redundancy, Occams Razor. MANY stand in line to try and destroy teachers of God's word. You wouldn't be the first that has failed at this.
The he in Dan9:27 is not the abomination that makes desolate. He is the one that sets it up. Where did Paul, the one who wrote the verse in question tell us the temple of God was? How can a building the Jews build be the temple of God when Christ Himself declared their temple desolate approximately 2000 years ago, you know 40 or so years before it was destroyed? No ones trying to destroy teachers of God's word but we have already proven Arnold Murray to be a false prophet/teacher.
You haven't proven anything nor do I think you can! And how you get your interpretation of Dan 9:27 is beyond me that is not how that reads. And when Jesus refers to Daniel. This IS what he is referring to!
As to Paul. Once again he knew the difference between physical and spiritual. This is kinda like when Paul wrote to the Thes. The first time. I don't think for one second that he thought they would be confused by this, but they were. After writing the second letter there was NO confusion to the learned. He wrote that one as plain as any could have written it. As far as the temple of God, when Paul wrote this the temple was still standing. I think I have already pointed this out. I know what Paul said (once again) about the temple being the body of Christ I think everyone understands and is in agreeance with this. But you have to realize he is speaking spiritually! If you don't understand that I can't help you.
QuoteAny surprise that you didn't repent from your bold faced lie? Not considering the verses I quoted from 2Timothy. Which also tell me to turn away from such as you. Before I do I recommend that you Google the liar that you follow. We will continue to expose Murray and his false doctrine and false prophecies in this forum, as a quick Google the the heretic's name demonstrates most of the rest of the Christian community does. Why do you suppose it is that the Nazis and skinheads go for his false doctrine so? I wash my hands of you and the filth you dragged into this forum. We'll include a lot of that material in here.
LOL thanks. Believe it or not I hope to see you when the smoke clears on the sea of fire and glass. If you understand what that means!
As far as lying, no I didn't, he don't have a clue what the man of sin is! Fact. Google is the filth and trash, people like you use to gossip about teachers of Gods word. As I said before you can google King James and read all the smut people put out there and it is lies. Just like what they put out there about Murray. Post what you will about him. Your only going to be one of the many false prophets that have done so. I think it is clear the kind of person you are. Real Christians are far better people. As far as what you include do as you will. It is your forum after all. One more thing the accuser stands day and night accusing the brethren. That is what you have done to me since the second YOU invited me. If we are Judged by our fruit, it is obvious what you are!
One more thing.
I still don't think you understand the quote in your signature! LOL
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 10:58:05 PMAs far as lying, no I didn't, he don't have a clue what the man of sin is! Fact.
Your lie didn't regard your disagreement with the content of Skolfield's view on "the man of sin" and you know it. Your lie was when you attributed words in a fictitious conversation to Skolfield, that never occurred, nor would it have, because he knows full well where to look for the man of sin. If you had known where to look for the
man of sin you might not have been dragged down toward the pit by a
false prophet of his.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/man_of_sin.htm
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 09:46:48 PM
Ellis Skolfeild was asked about the son of perdition once! His answer? I don't know! Fact.
Just as filthy a lie now as when your first told it, and your attempts to obfuscate rather than repent, are only further witness against you, as well as further confirmation of the 2Timothy and 2Thess verses I quoted in this context.
Blake is right. And all a person has to do is
pick up a bible or Yahoo Arnold Murray (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7l4g6m5PgiAArIRXNyoA?p=Arnold%20Murray%20false%20teacher%20prophet&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-701-s) to find the truth. The skinheads and Nazis waged such a pitched battle against the truth (http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/ipc/Group_5_Dispute_Results) on the Wikipedia article about him that Wikipedia had to remove the article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Murray).
KJV Gen 4:1 And
Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said,
I have gotten a man from the LORD.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3128.msg13046#msg13046
To go along with William Blake let me quote Ellis Skolfield - the man you lied about.
"God is truth, so how well a person serves the Lord is not dependent on how artfully he can defend his doctrines, but on his willingness to seek out and follow the truth." - Ellis Skolfield.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 10:58:05 PM
Google is the filth and trash, people like you use to gossip about teachers of Gods word. As I said before you can google King James and read all the smut people put out there and it is lies. Just like what they put out there about Murray. Post what you will about him. Your only going to be one of the many false prophets that have done so.
By the words of your false teacher is his fruit heard and made known. Do you believe that someone being led by the Holy Spirit would say take a 9mm to that boy? Listen to the brief audio clip in the following link of the words of your teacher!
http://carm.org/who-arnold-murray
In Christ, 1Christianwarrior
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 10:13:27 PM
speaking of parroting!!!
Yes parrotting, you can spew the doctrine you have learned fromArnold Murray false prophet/teacher as many times as you like it but that does not change the fact it is Scripturally bankrupt.
QuoteHere is a fact for you. YOU in fact deny the word of God. You can't take what fits you or makes your way of thinking work! I have already told you that Temple is physical or spiritual.
LOL there is a huge difference between denying the word of God and the doctrine you espouse. It doesn't matter what you say, what matters is what Scripture says! Not once after Christ declared the Jews temple desolate was it called the temple of God in Sccripture again. Rebuilding it won't change the fact it is already desolate. Do you believe a desolate building is the temple of God? Paul the person who wrote the verse about the man of sin repeatedly tells us the temple of God is the body of the believer or the corporate body. Can you show me one time Paul called a man made temple the temple of God? If not then why shouldn't I believe Scripture when it positively states the temple of God is the body of the believer or corporate body of believers?
The old temple has been destroyed and Christ raised a new one in 3 days!
QuoteI think you just run out of things to say didn't you?
Not at all I have no problem pointing out that repeating you error over and over agian will not make it true.
QuoteDaniel refers to the "boogieman" LOL as HE. POint Blank. May be you can read that different some how. I see it as Satan.
The He according to the interpretation you espouse is your future antichrist, unfortunately as I have pointed out many times parrotting this Scripturall bankrupt view multiple times does not make ot true. It only shows your willingness to stand by the false prophet you learned it from. But then again maybe you believed Arnold Murray when he said the battle of armageddon would begin in Alaska in 1985 too.
QuoteAlso are you saying that Paul's writing is not inspired?? That is dangerous ground. Do you think he is a false prophet as well?? If NO. Then what he said must be correct then RIGHT?
Just because i disagree with the doctrine you espouse that comes from the known faleprophet/teacher Arnold Murray does not mean I question Paul. It only means I question the heresy he taught you that you now espouse.
QuoteHE said the "boogieman" will be destroyed with the brightness of Jesus Coming? Seems pretty simple to me.
No your boogie man is your supposed future antichrist from 1John2:18 you know the one John said this"this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. " about. Paul was talking about the man of sin not "the antichrist". If you are going to say thet are the same entity you need to prove it, not just parrot the words of a Scriptural bankrupt false prophet/ teacher who you choose to follow. Why would you follow the teachings of a false prophet who predicted Armageddon in Alaska in 1985?
QuoteNow if you would rather how about Mark 13
Oh so now you want to change the subject and discuss the abomination of desolation an it not a he?
Quote14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet (Dan 9:27), standing where it ( here along with Dan 9:27 should be HE and Dr. Moffit does translate this HE!)
Dr Moffit only says he in his interpretation because it fits the doctrine he espouses. Kind of like you even though you insisted you only use the KJV, except of course as your words show when it doesn't fit the doctrine you espouse!
Quoteought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
These verses refer to how urgent the situation is.
It most definitely was an urgent warning as those who were in Judea that did not heed His warning certainly found out when they were either murdered, enslaved or made dhimmies.
QuoteWhat Jesus is saying is when you see this, The abomination from Dan, the end is that close. i.e. Jesus return.
Let's stick with what Scripture actually says. Those who were told to flee were told to flee because Jerusalem was about to be desolated. See Luke 21:24
Quote17But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
this reference is lets you know for a fact that the abomination is a HE.
LOL this from the one who claims he only uses the KJV whhich identifies the abomination as an it that stands not a he that sitteth. Looks like you are having trouble using only the kJV as you said you do. It looks more like you use whatever version suits your fancy so long as it supports the doctrine your false prophet/teacher Arnold Murray espouses.
QuoteHe is warning you not to play the harlot spiritually with "IT".
LOL no he is telling those who see it to flee the desolation that is about to be brought on Jerusalem. it is yoyr false prophet of a teacher that says not to play the harlot with it spiritually. How can one play a harlot with the dome of the rock?
Quote18And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. 21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
do you see that? after that tribulation the tribulation of "IT" then Jesus will return
LOL of course I see that Jesus does not return until after the tribulation, neither Peter or I have ever said, nor do either of us believe He will return before the tribulation. So why do you keep trying to convince He doesn't return until after the trib when we already believe He doesn't return until after the trib?
Quotelike Paul said. Jesus will consume HIM (the abomination, the one sitting in the temple claiming to be God) with the brightness of his coming.
Paul said it was the man of sin that would be consumed, he never said it was the abomination of desolation that would be consumed. You only believe that because you have bought into the heretical teachings of one false prophet/teacher named Arnold Murray. You know the guy who claimed in 1980 the antichrist would sit in the millenial temple iin Jreusalem in 1981. And as we can all see that didn't happen neither did the battle of Armageddon start in 1985 in Alaska llike he said it would. So why would anyone believe the rantings of a false prophet/teacher?
QuoteThere is sound doctrine. You make this harder than it is. One more thing prophecy is NOT of private interpretation. The word of God is pretty plain about it.
And yet you continue to parrot the false and heretical teachings of a known fale prophet/ teacher which is nothing more then a twisted version of the futurist doctrine with Arnold Murray's own private interpretation added in to promote his racist views! Amazing isn't it?
Brothers we can see that Michael2 consistently had trouble with truth, as even in his last effort to excuse away the very negative internet press on his false prophet Arnold Murray with.....
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 10:58:05 PMGoogle is the filth and trash, people like you use to gossip about teachers of Gods word. As I said before you can google King James and read all the smut people put out there and it is lies. Just like what they put out there about Murray.
Yet his suggestion couldn't be more verifiable false. All one has to do is Google - king james version (https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=frgbld&gs_nf=1&tok=c0MCmvuJqlSj9zCSIQQnAA&cp=12&gs_id=a7&xhr=t&q=king+james+version&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=king+james+v&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=4592eda312cd495&biw=1056&bih=504) - to find millions of sites that endorse it, promote it, and pour the accolades onto the King James Version, with descriptions like "beloved" and "favorite". This even though the King James Version is in the public domain, so nobody stands to make royalties from it's sale, like Rupert Murdoch's NIV and other pop-versions that spring from Westcott and Hort (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=81.0).
I can sympathize as I remember back when I was a futurist too, and the first time I did a I did a web search of my doctrine, and was introduced to the truth. I thought "Woah, the internet isn't the kind of place to learn more about my doctrine!". The search I did must have produced results that looked something like this (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7kg1Hm9PjwcAxJ1XNyoA?p=futurism+preterism&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-701&type_param=).
Quote from: Peter on March 25, 2012, 09:40:55 AM
Brothers we can see that Michael2 consistently had trouble with truth, as even in his last effort to excuse away the very negative internet press on his false prophet Arnold Murray with.....
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 10:58:05 PMGoogle is the filth and trash, people like you use to gossip about teachers of Gods word. As I said before you can google King James and read all the smut people put out there and it is lies. Just like what they put out there about Murray.
Yet his suggestion couldn't be more verifiable false. All one has to do is Google - king james version (https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=frgbld&gs_nf=1&tok=c0MCmvuJqlSj9zCSIQQnAA&cp=12&gs_id=a7&xhr=t&q=king+james+version&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=king+james+v&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=4592eda312cd495&biw=1056&bih=504) - to find millions of sites that endorse it, promote it, and pour the accolades onto the King James Version, with descriptions like "beloved" and "favorite". This even though the King James Version is in the public domain, so nobody stands to make royalties from it's sale, like Rupert Murdoch's NIV and other pop-versions that spring from Westcott and Hort (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=81.0).
I can sympathize as I remember back when I was a futurist too, and the first time I did a I did a web search of my doctrine, and was introduced to the truth. I thought "Woah, the internet isn't the kind of place to learn more about my doctrine!". The search I did must have produced results that looked something like this (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7kg1Hm9PjwcAxJ1XNyoA?p=futurism+preterism&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-701&type_param=).
LOL That depends on whos truth you are talking about! None of which you have! And yes KJ does get accolades from people like ME but there are MANY who speak falsely of it. You boys talk a lot about being indoctrinated for people who have taken the word of a Man verses Scripture. Which YOU have. I study the word for my self which is more than I can say about you. Pete seeing all the documentation you have from Skolfeild it appears that you agree with ONLY what this MAN says. That is cultic if I have ever seen it.
Marturion Do you have any Idea how hard it is to disprove ones lies to the ONE that is lying? You are SO indoctrinated you can't see the forest for the trees. I don't want you to believe anything I say nor am I hear to prove a point. My goal for everyone is to read the word of God for their self. The point being made about After tribulation. Is That tribulation happens Right before Christ returns. You two make out like all of the things Christ warned about has already happened. Some have, but most, and in-particularly the things that happen just before his return have NOT. You talk badly about men like Scofield Darby and the like, because they teach a pre-trib and future antichrist. Yet you are in fact saying the VERY SAME thing about the return of Christ except for the antichrist, and that is the only difference I see between you two and them. It is ridiculous. If you would think for you self half a second you would see this. You think you are in tribulation now. Did you read the description of what Jesus and the prophets said it would be like during that time. LOL Have you seen one make fire come from heaven? What about giving life to the image of the beast? What about world peace? Of course it is fake peace. Have you seen ANY of these things? If so educate me! Show me in the word of God and History when and where these things happened! We could go on for a while as to what it is going to be like during that time but you have already read it. Right? So put these things into Historic reference for me. I am curious how it is you can claim and show all these things have already happened.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 25, 2012, 11:56:02 AM
Quote from: Peter on March 25, 2012, 09:40:55 AM
Brothers we can see that Michael2 consistently had trouble with truth, as even in his last effort to excuse away the very negative internet press on his false prophet Arnold Murray with.....
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 10:58:05 PMGoogle is the filth and trash, people like you use to gossip about teachers of Gods word. As I said before you can google King James and read all the smut people put out there and it is lies. Just like what they put out there about Murray.
Yet his suggestion couldn't be more verifiable false. All one has to do is Google - king james version (https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=frgbld&gs_nf=1&tok=c0MCmvuJqlSj9zCSIQQnAA&cp=12&gs_id=a7&xhr=t&q=king+james+version&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=king+james+v&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=4592eda312cd495&biw=1056&bih=504) - to find millions of sites that endorse it, promote it, and pour the accolades onto the King James Version, with descriptions like "beloved" and "favorite". This even though the King James Version is in the public domain, so nobody stands to make royalties from it's sale, like Rupert Murdoch's NIV and other pop-versions that spring from Westcott and Hort (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=81.0).
I can sympathize as I remember back when I was a futurist too, and the first time I did a I did a web search of my doctrine, and was introduced to the truth. I thought "Woah, the internet isn't the kind of place to learn more about my doctrine!". The search I did must have produced results that looked something like this (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7kg1Hm9PjwcAxJ1XNyoA?p=futurism+preterism&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-701&type_param=).
LOL That depends on whos truth you are talking about! None of which you have! And yes KJ does get accolades from people like ME but there are MANY who speak falsely of it. You boys talk a lot about being indoctrinated for people who have taken the word of a Man verses Scripture. Which YOU have. I study the word for my self which is more than I can say about you. Pete seeing all the documentation you have from Skolfeild it appears that you agree with ONLY what this MAN says. That is cultic if I have ever seen it.
Marturion Do you have any Idea how hard it is to disprove ones lies to the ONE that is lying? You are SO indoctrinated you can't see the forest for the trees. I don't want you to believe anything I say nor am I hear to prove a point. My goal for everyone is to read the word of God for their self. The point being made about After tribulation. Is That tribulation happens Right before Christ returns. You two make out like all of the things Christ warned about has already happened. Some have, but most, and in-particularly the things that happen just before his return have NOT. You talk badly about men like Scofield Darby and the like, because they teach a pre-trib and future antichrist. Yet you are in fact saying the VERY SAME thing about the return of Christ except for the antichrist, and that is the only difference I see between you two and them. It is ridiculous. If you would think for you self half a second you would see this. You think you are in tribulation now. Did you read the description of what Jesus and the prophets said it would be like during that time. LOL Have you seen one make fire come from heaven? What about giving life to the image of the beast? What about world peace? Of course it is fake peace. Have you seen ANY of these things? If so educate me! Show me in the word of God and History when and where these things happened! We could go on for a while as to what it is going to be like during that time but you have already read it. Right? So put these things into Historic reference for me. I am curious how it is you can claim and show all these things have already happened.
Your questions spring from the false presumptions you have been taught to believe. They also ring hollow since you haven't expressed an interest in answers to any questions you have asked so far, so it isn't likely you will start now.
If you should acquire an interest in exploring another eschatology, that could help you overcome the satanic delusion you suffer -
that is also well supported by the fathers of the "former age" and consistent with 2,000 years of Christian core doctrine - the only way to understand an eschatology is to consider it in its entirety, within the context it employs, completely on its own merit. But you won't get far if you try to wring it through the filter of your Nazi/skinhead futurist context doctrine as you read.
You can find one such study within the
traditional continuous-historic context (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm) at the following link.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_false_prophet.htm
There are only 4 such contexts in the church (and futurist the approach you hold has only been in the church since the mid-19th century)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_eschatology#Approaches_to_prophetic_interpretation
After about four years since the founding of this forum you may well be the first to have earned the honor of authoring the first posts that wind up in the "dung heap" category - which I am considering retitling "Dung Heap and Synagogue of Satan". Any more attempts to advance Hitler's/Murray's/Satan's Lucifarian doctrine http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3150.msg13083#msg13083 in here, will be sent there, perhaps beginning with your last one.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=37.0
I do appreciate your having introduced us to Hitler's doctrine though, for exploration and inclusion in this forum, for read-only participants that are similarly deceived as you that may actually wonder why it is they find themselves in the company of Nazis, skinheads, Satanists and the KKK, while inadvertently advancing the 1400 year goal of Islam.
"This "Serpent Seed" doctrine is not a new revelation but an ancient teaching of Satan himself. The "Serpent Seed" ("SS") doctrine is a cunning DISTORTION of the Bible and the genetic line of Cain and Seth. It is biblically false and the CORE BELIEF of Nazism, Aryanism, Neo Nazis, Satanists and the Luciferic Illuminati. It was responsible for the Holocaust and the death of six million Jews, World War II and the loss of millions of more lives."
Several posts on your doctrine there:
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3150.msg13084#msg13084
Quote from: Michael2 on March 25, 2012, 11:56:02 AM
Quote from: Peter on March 25, 2012, 09:40:55 AM
Brothers we can see that Michael2 consistently had trouble with truth, as even in his last effort to excuse away the very negative internet press on his false prophet Arnold Murray with.....
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 10:58:05 PMGoogle is the filth and trash, people like you use to gossip about teachers of Gods word. As I said before you can google King James and read all the smut people put out there and it is lies. Just like what they put out there about Murray.
Yet his suggestion couldn't be more verifiable false. All one has to do is Google - king james version (https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=frgbld&gs_nf=1&tok=c0MCmvuJqlSj9zCSIQQnAA&cp=12&gs_id=a7&xhr=t&q=king+james+version&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=king+james+v&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=4592eda312cd495&biw=1056&bih=504) - to find millions of sites that endorse it, promote it, and pour the accolades onto the King James Version, with descriptions like "beloved" and "favorite". This even though the King James Version is in the public domain, so nobody stands to make royalties from it's sale, like Rupert Murdoch's NIV and other pop-versions that spring from Westcott and Hort (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=81.0).
I can sympathize as I remember back when I was a futurist too, and the first time I did a I did a web search of my doctrine, and was introduced to the truth. I thought "Woah, the internet isn't the kind of place to learn more about my doctrine!". The search I did must have produced results that looked something like this (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7kg1Hm9PjwcAxJ1XNyoA?p=futurism+preterism&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-701&type_param=).
LOL That depends on whos truth you are talking about! None of which you have! And yes KJ does get accolades from people like ME but there are MANY who speak falsely of it. You boys talk a lot about being indoctrinated for people who have taken the word of a Man verses Scripture. Which YOU have. I study the word for my self which is more than I can say about you. Pete seeing all the documentation you have from Skolfeild it appears that you agree with ONLY what this MAN says. That is cultic if I have ever seen it.
Marturion Do you have any Idea how hard it is to disprove ones lies to the ONE that is lying?
Sure I do. They usually refuse to answer questions like the ones I have asked you about the temple. When I say the temple of God is the body of believers or the corporate body of believers I can actually show Scripture that 100% supports my view (1Cor3:16-17, 2Cor6:16 Eph2:19-21). You on the other hand have to resort to man made arguments to show that you believe a temple that may or may not be built is the temple of God. But as it has been pointed out many times we have a new tempple and a new covenant.
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Can you show a single verse where after the Crucifixion and resurrection a man made temple was referred to in Scripture as the temple of God? Why not use the definition Paul (the one who told us about the man of sin) gave us for the temple of God?
QuoteYou are SO indoctrinated you can't see the forest for the trees. I don't want you to believe anything I say nor am I hear to prove a point.
That is good because yooour view cannot be proven as it is the doctrine of false prophets/teachers like Arnold Murray.
QuoteMy goal for everyone is to read the word of God for their self.
So then why do promote the doctrine of a false prophet/teacher that in many cases directly contradicts the Word of God?
QuoteThe point being made about After tribulation. Is That tribulation happens Right before Christ returns. You two make out like all of the things Christ warned about has already happened. Some have, but most, and in-particularly the things that happen just before his return have NOT.
Actually if one uses the tried and true methods that most Christians use to understand the prophecies leading to the first advent we can see that the vast majoority of prophecy has been unfolding since (and in some cases even before) John wrote Revelation. Job8:8 tells us to enquire of those from the former ages. If we exammine their methods of interpretation we will find that most believed in the day for a year principle that most Christians use to understand Daniels first 69 weeks taking us from Artaxerxes decree of 444/445BC to 32/33AD.. They realized that prophecy would not be fully understood until the time of the end and that after Israel became a nation and Jerusalem was no longer trodden over by the Gentiles we would be able to look back through history to see the fulfillment of prophecy.
QuoteYou talk badly about men like Scofield Darby and the like, because they teach a pre-trib and future antichrist. Yet you are in fact saying the VERY SAME thing about the return of Christ except for the antichrist, and that is the only difference I see between you two and them.
Which only shows that you have not taken the time to read or understand any of the links Peter has provided showing where the vast majority of prophecy has already been fulfileed and the Lords retun could happen any day. As Peter has pointed out the two predominate views on eschatology preterism and futurism are on opposite ends of the scale and by necessity both must rule out the possibilty that Mohammed is the false prophet. Unfortunately both futurist and preterist or wrong the continuos historic method is th eonly one that matches Scripture perfectly and can be verified historically.
QuoteIt is ridiculous. If you would think for you self half a second you would see this. You think you are in tribulation now.
Like it or not Scripture proves that tribulation has been going on for over 1900 years. Was John wrong when he told us he was in tribulation?
Rev 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
QuoteDid you read the description of what Jesus and the prophets said it would be like during that time.
Indeed the worst time of tribulation in the world occurred between the time the dome of the rock was built until Israel became a nation or when God gave Israel back to the Jews in 1967. Look ath how many believers were killed during the reformation alone. And let's not forget the holocaust. i could go on but it would be better if you just took the time to read (with an open mind) the information provided at www.beholdthebeast.com
QuoteLOL Have you seen one make fire come from heaven? What about giving life to the image of the beast? What about world peace? Of course it is fake peace. Have you seen ANY of these things? If so educate me! Show me in the word of God and History when and where these things happened! We could go on for a while as to what it is going to be like during that time but you have already read it. Right? So put these things into Historic reference for me. I am curious how it is you can claim and show all these things have already happened.
Here is a link that shows the time line http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm
Here is a link that explains the Olivette discourse based on what God's Word says http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm
I have taken the time to thoroughly research the views (and origins of those views) held by others including the doctrine taught by Murray. Can you honestly say the same about the views of others? Can you explain the origin of the view you hold and when/where many of those beliefs originated? Did they begin before or after the time of the end began and the book of Daniel was unsealed? When did the time of the end begin?
I told ou once I looked over it. Most of it is way off! but some things are interesting. i.e.
QuoteSo verse 32 discusses the "fig tree", putting forth leaves, which is a reference to the Jews, and all Israel, gathering again in the Holy Land, but perhaps not yet producing much fruit, with many returning Jews perhaps not even understanding what is pulling them there, since so many claim to be secular or even atheists. The Lord had withered the fig tree and did not allow it to bear any more fruit, and ever since, the Jews have not been allowed to evangelize Gentiles into the Jewish witness.
You are correct about this being a reference to Jews. I said we needed to define the word Jew early in this discussion. Jew can be a member of the tribe of Judea or a resident of Judea! The point is not everybody that claims to be our brother Judah really is. You have to understand the horticulture of the fig tree to understand the entirety of the parable. This parable is also a direct reference to the Garden. They sowed fig leaves to cover their selves. And it is a direct reference to Jeremiah 24. Good and Bad Fig. Again look at the horticulture if you want to understand the whole concept.
QuoteThe Greek houtos {hoo'-tos} translated as "this" in the verse above, is translated as "the same" on 28 other occasions. Perhaps "the same" might be a better translation here since the "times of the Gentiles" were not over until 1967. Houtos is also translated as "they" on 10 occasions.
I believe this is a reference to the literal generation that sees all these things fulfilled, and that generation begins in 1967, because it has to include the generation that sees the 'times of the Gentiles fulfilled". It is obvious that the "times of the Gentiles" weren't over in 70 AD since the Romans whacked another 750,000 Jews less than 70 years after the million killed in 70 AD. The word translated as "this" could hardly be considered a word to hang a doctrine on (preterism).
It is not for me to speculate as to how long a generation is. If the Lord meant a literal generation I heard one doctor say that folks in their 50's today, that take reasonably good care of themselves, may live to be 120 due to the pace of medical advancement. I have been witness to folks who try to use the single term "generation", as some sort of proof of their eschatology, but nothing can be proved by this term. It is at best ambiguous as far as the first century Greek language is concerned since it could be a metaphor referring to the generation of Christians, for example. From Strong's definitions: generation: 2b) metaphor - a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
Both definitions work for the exegesis proffered here. Not so for those who use it as a primary pillar, under the 16th century Jesuit Alcazar invention that is textually, mathematically, historically, chronologically, logically, hermeneutic, and Greek and Hebrew definition bankrupt, eschatology, of preterism.
For your notes I can only find three Generations mentioned in the word of God they are a 40, 70 and a 120 year generation. However I disagree with the six day war being the beginning of the final generation. Since the Parable is a direct reference to the Jeremiah 24 prophecy then 1948 must be the beginning of this generation.
QuoteMatthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
The coming of the Son of man. Just like in the previous discourse. The Second Coming. Concluding this section regarding how we will know.
This verse speaks volumes to the Christian. First I would point out that God told Noah everything he was goin to do Before he did it. Just like Christ did. Also You two may be sethites but I believe the word of God when it says the sons of God took the daughters of men to wife. In other words Angels left their place of habitation and took strange flesh just as the book of Jude said they did. So this could be the they that Jesus is referring to. And once more the flood was upon the face of the earth 5 months. Just like the flood of lies that is coming will be. hat flood is the apostasy.
Marturion your still not being specific in what events in prophecy have taken place except 70 AD which is NOT what you say it is. Also
may be I am just stating things wrong for your needs. You tell me who this king is that Daniel is talking about.
Daniel11:36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. 39Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
I say it is the same king spoken of in Rev 9
Rev9:11And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
You know what Apollyon and Abaddon mean right? So if this is NOT THE antichrist (that is to say false Jesus. or false Messiah) Then what do you call him and when pray tell did this event happen I would like details on it please.
Pete. Look, your site bro, do with it as you see fit. It really don't bother me. If you want to persecute the brethren then do it. Persecution is something I am used to. You already know people do not like hearing the truth. To know that people will have to stand for Jesus in tribulation is taboo where I live. Just about everybody and I do mean everybody where I live are pre-tribers. I am sure it is probably the same where you live. However what you teach is not much different.
Here is some more of that smut for you. Those "Jews" you speak so fondly of!
youtube.com/watch?v=IX9Tk2TMA6Q
This was broadcast on tv israelienne youtube.com/watch?v=qtVpHUjwQSA
And this is even worse. Our "Muslim Enemies" even Condemn jewish blasphemy Against Jesus
youtube.com/watch?v=C7IzvywgeX0
She called Jesus a Nazi like you have called me a thousand times.
You say I am racist because you don't understand. Actually political Zionism is the most dangerous thing for real Judah there has ever been. And once again I love our brother Judah. I just don't happen to think the people that make stuff like what is above could be real Judah.
I went onto Ellis Skolfield 's site in the ask the author section and found this.
QUESTION: In the False Prophet you state that the "times of the Gentiles" ended in 1967 when the Jews took control of Jerusalem. However, only the eastern part of Jerusalem really went into Jewish hands and a large number of Arabs still reside in the city. In a sense then, the Gentiles are still trampling Jerusalem. What am I missing?
ANSWER: You are missing the cultural setting. To understand that verse, we need to place ourselves in the shoes of the prophet and recognize what happened to a conquered monarch at the time of his defeat. We need to know what "trodden down" meant to people in Bible times. When an Old Testament king conquered a new land, he made the conquered king fall on his face before him. The victorious king would then place his foot on the neck of the defeated king, graphically showing that his land was now "trodden down." You can see examples of this custom in various ancient bas-reliefs.
"Time of the Gentiles" was a phrase used by Jesus in His final discourse to His disciples to describe what would happen to Jerusalem following His death and resurrection. I quote the verse . . .
Luk 21:24 "And they (the Jews) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
From 606 B.C. to 1967 A.D., Jerusalem was under various Gentile governments. It was governmentally "trodden down" of Gentiles. As of the 1967 war, that is no longer the case. Jerusalem and much of the Holy Land is now under Jewish governmental control for the first time in 2573 years. You are correct that many Arabs still live in Jerusalem, nevertheless they do not control it governmentally, thus Jerusalem is no longer governmentally "trodden down" of the Gentiles.
Ellis Skolfield
His answer can NOT be true and here is why.
1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Do you know why it is a reed like unto a rod Becasue this is being measured for punishment. This is the rod of correction. Then in verse 2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. It is given to the gentiles until the time of Jesus return! Israel only took part of the city in 1967 not the whole city and the dome of the rock is still standing proving what I am saying is true.
By the way Marturion did you catch that part about the temple of God. He is measuring a physical place not the spiritual temple you keep referring to. And yes I know the dome of the rock is standing instead of the temple of God. However the Whole site was not destroyed as you two say it was. The walls of the court are still standing and it will ALL be turned to sand. Not to far in the future.
But go ahead guys set me straight.
If this don't sound familiar your not paying attention. Here is some more truth.
youtube.com/watch?v=xw2FhXZ9tiw
The very same thing today in America. This is the four hidden Dynasties at there very BEST!
Did either of us recommend that you go to a site and ask a question and then wring the answer through the filter of Satan's/Hitler's/Arnold Murray's serpent seed doctrine? No. You can't even get to first base with that satanic lie because you have to reject Genesis 4:1 to follow Satan and his prophet Murray.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3150.0
In fact I indicated that if even if you read the whole book, but kept trying to wring it through the filter of Hitler/Satan's/Murray's doctrine you wouldn't get anything out of it, didn't I.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3128.msg13092#msg13092
We are former futurists so we understand the roots of futurist doctrine. And now we have learned the Satan's Seed rotted core of your doctrine is rooted in Hitler/Satan.
But you are unfamiliar with the traditional continuous historic context we understand Revelation through.
LOL Pete you removed some of my comments! Did the truth strike a nerve?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 25, 2012, 06:21:27 PM
LOL Pete you removed some of my comments! Did the truth strike a nerve?
No I replied and then moved them to the appropriate forum section, and hadn't gotten around to putting the link to it here yet.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3162.0
Quote from: Michael2 on March 25, 2012, 02:46:48 PM
I told ou once I looked over it. Most of it is way off! but some things are interesting. i.e.
QuoteSo verse 32 discusses the "fig tree", putting forth leaves, which is a reference to the Jews, and all Israel, gathering again in the Holy Land, but perhaps not yet producing much fruit, with many returning Jews perhaps not even understanding what is pulling them there, since so many claim to be secular or even atheists. The Lord had withered the fig tree and did not allow it to bear any more fruit, and ever since, the Jews have not been allowed to evangelize Gentiles into the Jewish witness.
You are correct about this being a reference to Jews. I said we needed to define the word Jew early in this discussion.
Which we now understand is Hitler's definition of Jews in your case. You're like a broken record.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3150.msg13084#msg13084
Just as your broken doctrine is of the flesh so are your videos about unregenerate individual's actions and words.
It is Satan's spirit in you that calls you to persecute faithful Jews, by citing the actions of secular or atheist Jews. Quote from: Michael2 on March 25, 2012, 03:02:10 PMAnd this is even worse. Our "Muslim Enemies" even Condemn jewish blasphemy Against Jesus
Islam is the enemy of the world, not Muslims. They are the victims of Muhammad.
And what would you expect but defense of Jesus? They are deceived by Muhammad into believing that they believe in Jesus even as they blaspheme the Son of God and the blood He shed for us all.
You join Muslims in denigrating faithful Jews by posting videos of the actions of unregenerates as if it represents faithful Jews. I've been shown all those videos before by Muslims. YOUR TEAM. Team Hamas. Team Muhammad. Team false accusers.
You substitute flesh because you can't explain, perhaps even to yourself, just why it is you reject the plain truth of Genesis 4:1, to instead follow Hitler's/Murray's satan's seed satanaic pile of false presumption.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3150.0
Quote from: Michael2 on March 25, 2012, 02:46:48 PM
Marturion your still not being specific in what events in prophecy have taken place except 70 AD which is NOT what you say it is. Also
may be I am just stating things wrong for your needs. You tell me who this king is that Daniel is talking about.
Daniel11:36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. 39Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
I say it is the same king spoken of in Rev 9
Rev9:11And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
You know what Apollyon and Abaddon mean right? So if this is NOT THE antichrist (that is to say false Jesus. or false Messiah) Then what do you call him and when pray tell did this event happen I would like details on it please.
LOL it is obvious you don’t take the time to read and understand what others write. I have told you that I believe enough prophecy has occurred that the Lord could return at any time. As you know a huge portion of Scripture is prophecy so it would be impossible to explain it all in one post which is why I have provided links showing fulfilled prophecy (see reply 167 in the thread this was split from) that you obviously have ignored. As for as 70AD goes the only thing I say happened in 70AD as for as prophecy is concerned is that the desolate temple building was destroyed just as Christ said it would be. So please show me where I am in error in my view about 70AD? What is it about 70AD that you believe I say that did not happen in 70AD? Show us where I said anything besides a desolate temple being destroyed occurred in 70AD? Or is this just you trying to blow smoke and change the subject because you refuse to answer the questions I have asked. Now quit avoiding the questions I have asked and answer them! We'll move on to a few of your questions after you address the questions I asked you. After all when you registered you did agree to address the issues so before we proceed to your questions answer the questions you were asked rather then ignoring them and moving on!
For your convenience I have copy and pasted some of those unanswered questions here,
Can you show a single verse where after the Crucifixion and resurrection a future man made temple was referred to in Scripture as the temple of God?
Why not use the definition Paul (the one who told us about the man of sin) gave us for the temple of God?
I have taken the time to thoroughly research the views (and origins of those views) held by others including the doctrine taught by Murray. Can you honestly say the same about the views of others? Can you explain the origin of the view you hold and when/where many of those beliefs originated? Did they begin before or after the time of the end began and the book of Daniel was unsealed? When did the time of the end begin?
Quote from: Michael2 on March 25, 2012, 04:03:49 PM
I went to Ellis Skolfield's site ....
Why did you go there? Why not go to the sites I linked to?
QuoteHis answer can NOT be true and here is why.
1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Do you know why it is a reed like unto a rod Becasue this is being measured for punishment. This is the rod of correction. Then in verse 2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. It is given to the gentiles until the time of Jesus return! Israel only took part of the city in 1967 not the whole city and the dome of the rock is still standing proving what I am saying is true.
By the way Marturion did you catch that part about the temple of God. He is measuring a physical place not the spiritual temple you keep referring to. And yes I know the dome of the rock is standing instead of the temple of God. However the Whole site was not destroyed as you two say it was. The walls of the court are still standing and it will ALL be turned to sand. Not to far in the future.
But go ahead guys set me straight.
LOL still grabbing at straws I see. Christ said the temple would be destroyed, He never said the walls outside the temple that were not part of the temple would be destroyed.
For starters nothing in the verse in question supports your view that a reed like unto a rod, is a rod for correction. As anyone reading the verse can see it is a tool used by John for measuring. You have to remember this is a vision. God can use whatever he chooses in a vision to get his message across to the prophet who will record the vision. In this case John was told to measure the temple. He was also told to leave out the court for it was given to the Gentiles. So the question is, why is the court left out for the Gentiles.? Obviously this is important or there would have been no need to mention that the court was being left out. So for John to understand exactly where this court is he was shown the temple that he was familiar with (the one destroyed in 70AD) and told to measure the temple so that he would know exactly where the court to be left out is located. Like you said the court was given to the Gentiles until Jesus returns so even though God gave the Jews control of Jerusalem (ending the trodding over) in 1967 the court still belongs to the Gentiles which is why the dome of the rock still stands and most likely will stand until Christ returns. Muslims are not Jews those who are not Jews are Gentiles So as we can see the Gentiles still own the court that was left out. This also fits in with the area left out for the profane place in Eze42:20. But I understand it doesn’t tickle your itching ears because it doesn’t come from your false prophet/teacher promoting racism.
If you want to keep grabbing at straws in order to defend the teachings of a known false prophet/teacher that is your choice. God gave us all free will, and while it is best to work out our salvation in fear and trembling many will instead listen to those who teach to their itching ears just as you continue to demonstrate!
Quote from: Marturion on March 25, 2012, 08:11:40 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 25, 2012, 04:03:49 PM
I went to Ellis Skolfield's site ....
Why did you go there? Why not go to the sites I linked to?
QuoteHis answer can NOT be true and here is why.
1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Do you know why it is a reed like unto a rod Becasue this is being measured for punishment. This is the rod of correction. Then in verse 2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. It is given to the gentiles until the time of Jesus return! Israel only took part of the city in 1967 not the whole city and the dome of the rock is still standing proving what I am saying is true.
By the way Marturion did you catch that part about the temple of God. He is measuring a physical place not the spiritual temple you keep referring to. And yes I know the dome of the rock is standing instead of the temple of God. However the Whole site was not destroyed as you two say it was. The walls of the court are still standing and it will ALL be turned to sand. Not to far in the future.
But go ahead guys set me straight.
LOL still grabbing at straws I see.
Hey bro I just noticed this post. Was that an intended pun regarding the reed and "grabbing at straws"?!
Quote from: Marturion on March 25, 2012, 08:11:40 PMChrist said the temple would be destroyed, He never said the walls outside the temple that were not part of the temple would be destroyed.
For starters nothing in the verse in question supports your view that a reed like unto a rod, is a rod for correction. As anyone reading the verse can see it is a tool used by John for measuring.
None of his exegesis should surprise us anymore. Or maybe he got that from Murray!
It is entertaining to imagine a reed being the instrument of choice used to punish someone!
"The Ancient Roman units of measurement of length included a rod or pertica (also decempeda) of 10 pedes, which was equivalent to about 2.96 m"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_%28unit%29
So sad he follows a doctrine of devils when the truth is so much of a blessing.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#court_without
Quote from: Peter on March 26, 2012, 08:54:15 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 25, 2012, 08:11:40 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 25, 2012, 04:03:49 PM
I went to Ellis Skolfield's site ....
Why did you go there? Why not go to the sites I linked to?
QuoteHis answer can NOT be true and here is why.
1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Do you know why it is a reed like unto a rod Becasue this is being measured for punishment. This is the rod of correction. Then in verse 2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. It is given to the gentiles until the time of Jesus return! Israel only took part of the city in 1967 not the whole city and the dome of the rock is still standing proving what I am saying is true.
By the way Marturion did you catch that part about the temple of God. He is measuring a physical place not the spiritual temple you keep referring to. And yes I know the dome of the rock is standing instead of the temple of God. However the Whole site was not destroyed as you two say it was. The walls of the court are still standing and it will ALL be turned to sand. Not to far in the future.
But go ahead guys set me straight.
LOL still grabbing at straws I see.
Hey bro I just noticed this post. Was that an intended pun regarding the reed and "grabbing at straws"?!
LOL didn't think anybody would catch it. Should have known you wouldn't miss it.
QuoteQuote from: Marturion on March 25, 2012, 08:11:40 PMChrist said the temple would be destroyed, He never said the walls outside the temple that were not part of the temple would be destroyed.
For starters nothing in the verse in question supports your view that a reed like unto a rod, is a rod for correction. As anyone reading the verse can see it is a tool used by John for measuring.
None of his exegesis should surprise us anymore. Or maybe he got that from Murray!
It is entertaining to imagine a reed being the instrument of choice used to punish someone!
Just more of him parrotting Murray. If I remember correctly Murray says the same thing.
Quotecient Roman units of measurement of length included a rod or pertica (also decempeda) of 10 pedes, which was equivalent to about 2.96 m"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_%28unit%29
I wasn't going to waste time explaining that as I felt it would fall on deaf ears. Here in the US a rod is still used as a measurement (though not the same length as the Romans used) I used to buy field fence for the farm in rolls that were 20 rods long (330 feet) or 80 rods 1320 feet.
Quotehe follows a doctrine of devils when the truth is so much of a blessing.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#court_without
Let's keep him in our prayers! Maybe a seed was planted, let's pray it grows.
Quote from: Marturion on March 26, 2012, 11:38:18 PM
Quote from: Peter on March 26, 2012, 08:54:15 PM
Quote from: Marturion on March 25, 2012, 08:11:40 PM
Quote from: Michael2 on March 25, 2012, 04:03:49 PM
I went to Ellis Skolfield's site ....
Why did you go there? Why not go to the sites I linked to?
QuoteHis answer can NOT be true and here is why.
1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Do you know why it is a reed like unto a rod Becasue this is being measured for punishment. This is the rod of correction. Then in verse 2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. It is given to the gentiles until the time of Jesus return! Israel only took part of the city in 1967 not the whole city and the dome of the rock is still standing proving what I am saying is true.
By the way Marturion did you catch that part about the temple of God. He is measuring a physical place not the spiritual temple you keep referring to. And yes I know the dome of the rock is standing instead of the temple of God. However the Whole site was not destroyed as you two say it was. The walls of the court are still standing and it will ALL be turned to sand. Not to far in the future.
But go ahead guys set me straight.
LOL still grabbing at straws I see.
Hey bro I just noticed this post. Was that an intended pun regarding the reed and "grabbing at straws"?!
LOL didn't think anybody would catch it. Should have known you wouldn't miss it.
QuoteQuote from: Marturion on March 25, 2012, 08:11:40 PMChrist said the temple would be destroyed, He never said the walls outside the temple that were not part of the temple would be destroyed.
For starters nothing in the verse in question supports your view that a reed like unto a rod, is a rod for correction. As anyone reading the verse can see it is a tool used by John for measuring.
None of his exegesis should surprise us anymore. Or maybe he got that from Murray!
It is entertaining to imagine a reed being the instrument of choice used to punish someone!
Just more of him parrotting Murray. If I remember correctly Murray says the same thing.
You've got to be kidding me! And he's the one that calls those that aren't in his cult yo-yos!
Quote from: Marturion on March 26, 2012, 11:38:18 PM
Quotecient Roman units of measurement of length included a rod or pertica (also decempeda) of 10 pedes, which was equivalent to about 2.96 m"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_%28unit%29
I wasn't going to waste time explaining that as I felt it would fall on deaf ears. Here in the US a rod is still used as a measurement (though not the same length as the Romans used) I used to buy field fence for the farm in rolls that were 20 rods long (330 feet) or 80 rods 1320 feet.
Come on bro, ethnographic hermeneutic (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm#lbl_map)! (I understand you understand, but included the comment for those that are unfamiliar with the tools scholars use to study and understand scripture.)
Quote from: Marturion on March 26, 2012, 11:38:18 PM
Quotehe follows a doctrine of devils when the truth is so much of a blessing.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#court_without
Let's keep him in our prayers! Maybe a seed was planted, let's pray it grows.
Amen and amen.
Quote from: Peter on March 27, 2012, 04:54:20 AM
Quote from: Marturion on March 26, 2012, 11:38:18 PM
Quotecient Roman units of measurement of length included a rod or pertica (also decempeda) of 10 pedes, which was equivalent to about 2.96 m"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_%28unit%29
I wasn't going to waste time explaining that as I felt it would fall on deaf ears. Here in the US a rod is still used as a measurement (though not the same length as the Romans used) I used to buy field fence for the farm in rolls that were 20 rods long (330 feet) or 80 rods 1320 feet.
Come on bro, ethnographic hermeneutic (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm#lbl_map)! (I understand you understand, but included the comment for those that are unfamiliar with the tools scholars use to study and understand scripture.)
After rereading it I guess I should have pointed out that as a side note even though it has no reference to the subject, the term is still being used as a unit of measure. OOPs my mistake, not trying to cause confusion! I do agree it is ethnographic.
Quote from: Michael2 on March 24, 2012, 06:54:14 PMWe are not to look for Satan's activities to-day in the newspaper press, or the police courts ; but in the pulpit, and in professors' chairs.
While consolidating this thread I just happened upon this post (you can always click on the link about the quote to be taken to the post that is quoted). Talk about being blinded by the enemy!
While we should be on the lookout for the influence of the evil one
everywhere, including in the church, today there are 1.5 billion followers of Muhammad, that must reject the sacrifice of the Messiah, and reject the Son of God, as articles of their faith in Muhammad! The very same dark forces that
hillbilly joins through Murray's
anti-Zionism via serpent seed doctrine, in the Islamic conquest of the Israelis, to the demise of Israeli Jews
and Christians that had formerly enjoyed the Israeli's protection in Gaza.
"'Christians must accept Islamic rule'
Militant leader in Gaza says missionaries will be 'dealt with harshly,' demands women wear headscarfs.
Christians can only continue living safely in the Gaza Strip if they accept Islamic law, including a ban on alcohol and on women roaming publicly without proper head coverings, an Islamist militant leader in Gaza told WND in an exclusive interview."