Since Dr. Haug's stuffing of a 37 year gap into the middle of Daniel's 70th week would offend the sensibilities of preterists and partial preterists - who love to stick their finger in the eye of futurists for creating a gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th week - this is really an inappropriate forum section for this thread, though they are certainly all joined in Roman Church style punitive supersessionism.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/supersessionism_replacement_theology.htm
And even though he hails to Assemblies of God, the Pentecostal section isn't appropriate because he teaches outside of not only Pentecostalism but outside of nearly 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine. The best section for it is "Miscellaneous Religions, Christian sects, self-proclaimed prophets and those with gods of their own creation", particularly since Haug credits himself with prophecy (http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3601.msg15204#msg15204) as well, so that forum section is likely where it will eventually be retired to. I did make mention of it in the Pentecostal section in an address to the Assemblies of God church.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3716.0
I rolled this thread out on 7-16 after repeatedly promising to do so during the chat. Since our discussion may not yet be complete I locked this thread. To comment on it please go to the conversation at the following link so we can avoid dilution and confusion within the original chat:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3719.0
I did my best to quote the entirety of the reply emails, within my responses. I don't believe I missed anything.
Website of the book:
http://wake-up-ministries.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi Rev. Haug,
In reading your book a question kept occurring to me, which you alluded to in the "impact on your life" section of your book. If all bible prophecy was fulfilled by 70AD, how do you explain the physical matter of fact of the return of Jews to Israel, with that tiny little strip of land having emerged from near total desolation at the beginning of the 19th century, to becoming the geopolitical focus of the whole world today?
I'm sure you would agree that as Christians we have to understand that such a thing could not have taken place in a spiritual vacuum.
So based on your eschatology I would imagine that you must believe the return of Jews to their land is not of the Lord, and thus it must be of the enemy, Satan. Would you agree with that?
First contact was not replied to.
Hello again Brother,
I previously asked you a question but you must have missed it as I did not receive a reply. I wonder if you could help out with the even more important question raised at this link:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/partial_preterism.htm#the_danger
Thanking you in advance for the favor of a reply I remain,
In Christ Jesus,
Ron
Quote from: PeteWaldo on June 29, 2013, 02:37:01 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on April 27, 2013, 09:19:56 AM
First contact was not replied to.
Hello again Brother,
I previously asked you a question but you must have missed it as I did not receive a reply. I wonder if you could help out with the even more important question raised at this link:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/partial_preterism.htm#the_danger
Thanking you in advance for the favor of a reply I remain,
In Christ Jesus,
Ron
6-9-13 Dr. Haug
Ron,
Sorry for not replying sooner. The questions you raise are all addressed in my book entitled Ortho-millennialism:Bringing Order to End-time Chaos. I have a 20 page section refuting a post 70 AD writing of Revelation. The book needs to be read from beginning to end, because it is basically a proof for my position. I have had pastors from Kenya to England to US say my position is irrefutable. Therefore to refute premillennialism requires a 300 page book and that is why I wrote it.
Best Regards,
Rev. Dr. Gerald Haug
Assemblies of God Missionary to the Chinese at the University of Michigan
my reply 6-29
Dear Dr. Haug,
Thank you for the reply to my email, though from your unrelated reply it seems perhaps your time is too short for you to be able to bother with emails. Thus typical of partial and hyper preterists you responded against premillennialism, as though there are only 2 millennial views, though my view is in the tradition of amillennialism. Nor is it unusual for folks to only recognize 2 approaches to eschatology, since over the last couple of centuries the traditional historicist approach to eschatology was displaced. This is the view through which ALL Jews and Christians understand Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled, and up until the 16th and 17th century Roman Jesuit doctrines of preterism (Alcazar) and futurism (Ribera) came into vogue in the 19th century, the church understood New Testament prophecy was being fulfilled in conjunction with an amillennial view.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/
Most seriously, as I recall your book only partially quoted the following verse, perhaps for obvious reasons:
2Timothy 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
From Strong's on canker:
1) a gangrene, a disease by which any part of the body suffering from inflammation becomes so corrupted that, unless a remedy be seasonably applied, the evil continually spreads, attacks other parts, and at last eats away the bones
Since 2nd Timothy was penned in around 64 to 67 AD, full or hyper preterists such as yourself must necessarily believe that the dire warning contained in this verse was only operative for a few years until 70 AD, and thus for the nearly 2,000 years after, Christians were presumably supposed to believe the exact opposite of the dire warning in that verse. I giant bet on Jesuit Alcazar's immediate audience hermeneutic, let alone that literal scriptures regarding such as "the day of the Lord" and final judgment must be spiritualized and gnosticized away by conversion into metaphor, in order to do so. Further suggesting that folks aren't supposed to be able to read the literal passages in scripture without consulting self-proclaimed "scholars", or risk believing the exact opposite of what is meant.
1Corinthians 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Now directly in the context of that verse:
2Timothy 2:17 And their word will eat as {a disease by which any part of the body suffering from inflammation becomes so corrupted that, unless a remedy be seasonably applied, the evil continually spreads, attacks other parts, and at last eats away the bones}: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Did God allow the entirety of the church to be misguided, throughout nearly 2,000 years of universal Christian core doctrine, as we look forward to the "blessed hope"?
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Were Christians only supposed to look for that blessed hope, for the five years between when the book of Titus was penned, and Christ allegedly returned in 70 AD? Let alone that preterists as well as partial preterists are required to reject the restoration of Jews to their land as being of the Lord. Of having absolutely nothing to do with bible prophecy whatsoever. Joining them with the rest of the world that rejects the prophesies of the restoration of Jews to their land, that scripture suggests should convince even "the heathen". What does James suggest regarding teaching, let alone a pop-20th-21st century doctrine that stands outside of nearly 2,000 years of universal Christian core doctrine?
James 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
Yet you seem perfectly comfortable to presume yourself correct while contrary to 1800 years of church history having been wrong.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/partial_preterism.htm#the_danger
This even considering the matter of fact reality of 6 million Jews ruling and reigning in Israel after 2500 years of being scattered among the Gentile nations. Restored not for their sakes, but for the sake of God's holy name, just as prophesied.
http://modernzionism.com/zionism_in_prophecy.htm
And just as anticipated by great men of God, centuries before that restoration ever began to take place.
http://modernzionism.com/zionism_in_christianity.htm#christians_on_zionism
Yet because of your eschatology you choose the side off the Israeli Muslims, against the Israeli Jews, Israeli Christians and Israeli non-Muslim Arabs who enjoy the freedom, liberty and self-determination provided by the democracy of the Israeli Jewish State. Your doctrine causes you to invoke Hadrian's term "Palestine" that he coined to insult Jews, rather than the only name that the New Testament offers for the land which is Israel. Let alone suggestion of a "Palestinian" people that helps you obscure the fact that the conflict is between Islam and the non-Islamic world. Israeli Muslims against the Israeli Jews, Christians and non-Muslim Arab's freedom.
http://modernzionism.com/anti_zionism.htm
While your punitive supersessionism leads to not caring a whit for Jews, I would think what anti-Zionism has done to Gaza Christians would be enough to give you pause:
http://modernzionism.com/zionism_in_christianity.htm#christianity_in_zionism
You have chosen the side of the followers of THE false prophet Muhammad against all Israeli non-Muslims.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_false_prophet.htm
Let alone the self-proclaimed "Christian" fellow fruit in your anti-Zionist tree which includes Arnold Murray and his Serpent Seed cult, David Duke and the KKK, Jeremiah Wright and Ted Pike, along with non-Christians like 1.5 billion Muslims, Louis Farrakan and the Nation of Islam, and secular groups like communist Soviets, the United Nations, George Soros and his Center for American Progress, white supremacists, Nazis, skinheads, and anti-Semites of all stripes.
Do you ever wonder why you are found among such fruit?
"and their word doth eat as a canker". Does it concern you even now? The following should be sobering:
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I'll pray for you my friend.
Quote from: PeteWaldo on June 29, 2013, 02:28:14 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on April 09, 2013, 08:48:25 AM
http://wake-up-ministries.com
Hi Rev. Haug,
In reading your book a question kept occurring to me, which you alluded to in the "impact on your life" section of your book. If all bible prophecy was fulfilled by 70AD, how do you explain the physical matter of fact of the return of Jews to Israel, with that tiny little strip of land having emerged from near total desolation at the beginning of the 19th century, to becoming the geopolitical focus of the whole world today?
I'm sure you would agree that as Christians we have to understand that such a thing could not have taken place in a spiritual vacuum.
So based on your eschatology I would imagine that you must believe the return of Jews to their land is not of the Lord, and thus it must be of the enemy, Satan. Would you agree with that?
Reply 6-9-13 Dr. Huang:
Ron,
I have just completed a 45,000 word book that will be published in the next 6 months that will finally answer that question once and for all. Modern Israel has NOTHING to do with first century Israel. The historical evidence is overwhelming that 100% of Jews are merely converts to Judaism. The fact is that Christians have not studied history as well as they should have. My new book will totally shatter modern Evangelical undestanding of Modern Israel. At the moment the Assemblies of God doctrinal purity commission is reading the rough draft of this new book and is seriously considering changing their doctrinal position regarding Israel as a result.
Best Regards,
Rev. Dr. Gerald Haug
(bolded and enlarged for purposes of posting in the forum)
Dear Dr. Huang,
Unfortunately your email did not attempt an explanation as to what 6 million Jews are doing ruling and reigning over Israel. It only proclaimed a denial of a physical matter of fact reality. You can deny the physical reality all day long as is necessary to advance your doctrine, but it won't make that sttunning reality go away. A reality that scripture suggests would cause even "the heathen" to know He is Lord.
More reply embedded.
Quote
I have just completed a 45,000 word book that will be published in the next 6 months that will finally answer that question once and for all.
I wonder how many times an individual has made such a claim over the last 2,000 years.
Yet Daniel pegged the year that Jews would be restored to their land, and restored to their city, right to the years 1948 and 1967, and he did it 2500 years in advance as confirmed mathematically.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm
QuoteModern Israel has NOTHING to do with first century Israel.
Yet there they are. 6 million Jews ruling and reigning while protecting the freedom, liberty and self-determination of Israeli Jews, Israeli Christians and Israeli non-Muslim Arabs, where Israeli Muslims also enjoy more freedom than they do in any Muslim controlled country on earth.
QuoteThe historical evidence is overwhelming that 100% of Jews are merely converts to Judaism.
I understand you desperately need to believe that to follow your home-spun doctrine, and you can wish that were true, but I believe Israeli Jews would disagree with you.
QuoteThe fact is that Christians have not studied history as well as they should have.
No question about that or they would readily recognize THE false prophet Muhammad as THE false prophet of the book of Revelation, since 1/4 of mankind in the world today must reject the crucifixion of Christ and thus His shed blood as an article of faith in the false prophet Muhammad alone.
http://www.brotherpete.com
Who are taught that they commit the single most egregious - and ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN - if a Muslim were to confess that Jesus is the Son of God or even to pray in Jesus' name. As compared such as child rape or mass murder, which are forgivable sins (both of which Muhammad also happened to be guilty of).
http://www.petewaldo.com/unforgivable_shirk.htm
QuoteMy new book will totally shatter modern Evangelical undestanding of Modern Israel.
John Darby's doctrine is easy to refute. Indeed refutes itself since it cannot stand in the light of the Gospel:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/futurism_dispensationalism.htm
QuoteAt the moment the Assemblies of God doctrinal purity commission is reading the rough draft of this new book and is seriously considering changing their doctrinal position regarding Israel as a result.
I'll forward along our conversation for their perusal.
QuoteBest Regards,
To you too Dr. Hang, and I look forward to your reply now that you can understand that my view is within the traditions of historicism and amillennialism.
QuoteRev. Dr. Gerald Haug
Quote
Ron,
Thanks for your lengthy email. I have spent extensive time studying the amillennial and postmillennial positions. Augustine is considered the father of the amillennial position. Augustine was riddled with much false doctrine and is one of the chief promoters of early Roman Catholic theology. So I could easily say that amillennialism led to the Dark Ages and the Catholic church. You are quick to put labels on people, so I will clarify my position. I would consider myself anti-Catholic but NOT anti-Semitic. My new book on Jewish history shows that nearly all Jews are converts to Judaism after 70 AD. The Sephardic Jews are Berber and European converts of the 6th century, while the Ashkenazi Jews are of 7th century Turkish-Khazar origin. All the documentation for my book comes directly from professors who are Jewish and live in Israel.
My thoughts are very straight forward. If Satan made a counterfeit Christianity called Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, it is only logical that he could make a group of counterfeit Jews.
I went to the links that you recommended and it was clear that they were filled with speculative theology. and history. Islam is a false religion that is experiencing short term growth, however it has one serious weakness. That weakness is that it is built on the pedophile Mohammed. Once Muslims begin to understand the history of Mohammed, they will leave in large numbers. I have seen this with the rapid decline in the number of Mormons, because they finally know about the polygamy of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Similarly, I predict in 200 years that Islam will only be a footnote in human history.
God Bless,
Rev. Dr. Gerald Haug
Thank you again, for the favor of a reply Dr. Haug. Though I do wish you had addressed, at least the most important points in my email, and would appreciate it if you could spare the time now, regarding this dire warning from scripture:
2Timothy 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
From Strong's on "canker":
1) a gangrene, a disease by which any part of the body suffering from inflammation becomes so corrupted that, unless a remedy be seasonably applied, the evil continually spreads, attacks other parts, and at last eats away the bones
Since 2nd Timothy was penned in around 64 to 67 AD, full or hyper preterists such as yourself must necessarily believe that the dire warning contained in this verse was only operative for the few years until 70 AD, and then for the nearly 2,000 years after, Christians were presumably supposed to believe the exact opposite of the dire warning in that verse.
Do you believe the warning contained in that verse was only operative for a few years, and then
for the next 2,000 years Christians were expected to believe the EXACT OPPOSITE of the dire warning contained in that verse, and that the resurrection is past already?
Thank you Dr. Haug
Thank you again.
Then the answer is,
yes you believe that verse was only operative for a few years, and then for the next 2,000 years
Christians were expected to believe the EXACT OPPOSITE of the dire warning contained in that verse.
more embedded Quote
Ronald,
Let me requote page 15 from my book.
"The third principle of interpreting a passage is historical analysis. Here we consider the time period, culture, and impact of the events of the day in which the text was written on its original audience. Remember the Bible is written for us, not to us. It was written by the author to its initial listeners.
The same excuse liberal women used to discard head coverings in church.
"Why that was for the women church of Corinth."
Same excuse the liberal church uses to ordain women.
Same hermeneutic the Episcopal Church used to ordain a homosexual as Bishop.
"Well gee that was about the Romans and their use of boys sexually in the 1st century.....".
It is 17th century counter-reformation Roman Catholic Jesuit Luis Alcazar that is credited with the hermeneutic you suggest:
".....his work is regarded as the first major application of the method of interpretation of prophecy by reading in terms of the author's contemporary concerns."
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/a/alcazar-luis.html
QuoteOnly after we understand its original message can we apply its principles to our own lives.."
The epistle, 2 Timothy, was written specifically TO Timothy. It was NOT written to Fred or Wilma, nor anyone in the 21st century.
Sure, and Corinthians was only written to those of the church in Corinth.....
1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
.....and Thess to those in Thessalonica, and not to the church at large.
Since Paul was dead before 70 AD, who is the "we" in all these verses?
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then
we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Who is the "we"? If this event happened to the Thessalonians in 70 AD, where is the historical record regarding those Thessalonians that were alive, being caught up together in the clouds and meeting the Lord in the air at the last trump? One would think this would have been an even worth chronicling.
For that matter, where is the record of the Lord returning in the clouds just as promised:
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven,
shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Rev 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
One would think that event would be worth at least a paragraph or two out of the early chroniclers.QuoteSo what type of issues would Timothy be facing as a pastor of the church in Ephesus? One of the issues would be those who claimed that the resurrection of the dead had already occurred. If the resurrection of the dead had already occurred than there would be no need to be prepared for the Judgment on Jerusalem or the Parousia. So Paul wanted to tell Timothy to remind the people of his congregation that the resurrection of the dead had NOT occurred YET! They needed to wait for the future parousia and the judgment on Jerusalem, which was occurring SOON.
Just to further clarify, I am not a hyper-preterists like Don Preston. He claims that the Millennium was from 30 to 70 AD.
You are combining apples with oranges. Doctrines regarding Millennium are to a significant extent separate from the 4 approaches to eschatology.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/
The reason his and your brand of preterism is considered "hyper" or "full" is because you both believe the resurrection of the dead and Second Coming happened in the 1st century, unlike partial preterists which believe most everything you do, except for those two items which they believe are yet future.
Your eschatology is nothing new. Maybe you were never exposed to partial preterisn, but were only exposed to futurist heresy.
QuoteI claim the Millennium is from 70 AD to some time in the future.
If you believe we are in the millennium, as do I, how does that not make you amillennial?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism
Quote
Bottomline: Most Christians fail to read their Bible correctly.
Perhaps what you mean is they don't share Roman Catholic Jesuit Luis Alcazar's suggestion that scripture was only intended for the immediate audience, but instead believe the Bible was written to the church at large. Written to us.
QuoteThis is why it took me 10 years to become a Christian. Christians are constantly taking verses out of their historical context and misapplying them. This is why there is so much chaos in the body of Christ.
That is certainly true, but I would suggest that the reason for the chaos is, that instead of applying a uniform approach to ALL Bible prophecy as Jews and the church did up until a couple hundred years ago, that it is therefore the Roman Church anti-reformation pop-heresies of preterism and futurism that began to come into vogue in the 19th century, that caused the chaos. Perhaps right on schedule:
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
QuoteSloppy hermeneutics leads to sloppy theology and Christians leading a life of mediocrity.
Indeed. As well the heresies of preterism and futurism necessarily precluding a near unanimity of the body of Christ from even considering, that Muhammad could be THE false prophet, even though 1/4 of mankind in the world today deny the Son of God and reject His shed blood, as articles of faith in Muhammad alone.
Are commanded to conquer and subjugate all people, to prostrating toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day, while praying in the "vain repetitions of the heathen", in the names of the Arabian pagan deity "Allah" and his "messenger" Muhammad. Who commit the only unforgivable sin in their cult if they even pray in Jesus' name.
http://www.petewaldo.com/unforgivable_shirk.htm
QuoteSo I can say amillennialism, historical premillennialism, and dispensational premillennialism are total heresies.
Interesting that someone that has chosen to stand outside of nearly 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine, in regard to the Second Coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead, would use the term "heresies".
Perhaps I am missing a minor point, but if you believe we are in the kingdom of Jesus Christ, and are living in the millennium today, how are you not amillennial?
The difference being that I believe Christ ushered in His kingdom through His resurrection, and that the millennium will last until Christ's return, while you perhaps believe the millennium began in 70 AD until ..... when it is? Fallen man fixes Satan's kingdoms of the world?
QuoteHermeneutics is a SCIENCE and thus my training in mathematical physics and theology give me a great advantage .........
Since you are a math whiz I would appreciate it if you could calculate the odds against, just the first two math problems on the page at the following link, being an accident:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm
Quote....... in understanding how to study the Bible systematically.
I hope that helps.
A direct answer to my question would have helped a bit more. Perhaps yes or no.
Quote
God Bless,
Rev. Dr. Haug
I wanted to make sure you were willing to suggest that for 2,000 years Christians have been expected to believe the exact opposite of the dire warning found in 2Timothy 2:17-18, before proceeding with the rest of that email.
Quote
Ronald,
Thanks for your lengthy email. I have spent extensive time studying the amillennial and postmillennial positions. Augustine is considered the father of the amillennial position. Augustine was riddled with much false doctrine and is one of the chief promoters of early Roman Catholic theology.
That's why I rely on scripture.
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
And from my brother John:
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
But then you also have to reject traditional dating of the book of Revelation, or your whole eschatology goes right out the window.
The most important understanding of amillennialism, is that we amillennialists believe that Christ rules and reigns in His kingdom today, and that we are in His kingdom - today.
QuoteSo I could easily say that amillennialism led to the Dark Ages and the Catholic church.
While you "could easily say" it, that wouldn't make it any less preposterous, since amillennialism was around in the first couple centuries of the Christian era so it predated Augustine by hundreds of years. And you make that ridiculous leap even as you accuse "speculation" of me. Let alone that the Roman Catholic church has always been favorable to your punitive supersessionism.
QuoteYou are quick to put labels on people, so I will clarify my position.
Terms are created to help people understand each other, without having to go into lengthy explanations, every time we want to express our position.
Those that believe as you, that the resurrection of the dead and Second Coming of Christ happened in the 1st century are "full" or "hyper" preterists. Roman Catholic Jesuit Luis Alcazar is credited with the presence of the doctrine in today's church, and also for the immediate audience hermeneutic. I suppose you could relabel it anything that you want, but that would only serve to confuse the conversation.
QuoteI would consider myself anti-Catholic ........
I would consider myself anti-Catholicism, through there is no shortage of heresy to go around, throughout the body of Christ. One of the most conspicuously regenerate guys I know is Roman Catholic.
Yet, while they are reluctant to commit, they share your eschatological approach, being partial preterist.
But far worse than that, is something else that you not surprisingly share with them, which is punitive supersessionism.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/supersessionism_replacement_theology.htm#roman_catholic_supersessionism
Quote....... but NOT anti-Semitic.
What I suggested is that you are anti-Zionist because your book suggests it. You can deny it but it's made pretty obvious through your propaganda infused suggestion that Jews are "occupying" so-called "Palestine". Which was 2nd century emperor Hadrian's name for what the New Testament calls "Israel", in his efforts to insult the Jews he had vanquished, and to try to make Israel disappear.
I simply pointed out your fellow fruit in the anti-Zionist tree as including some self-described Christians such as Arnold Murray and his Serpent Seed cult, David Duke and the KKK, Jeremiah Wright, and Ted Pike, who are joined by Muslims, Louis Farrakan and the Nation of Islam, and secular groups like communist Soviets, the United Nations, George Soros and his Center for American Progress, white supremacists, Nazis, skinheads, and anti-Semites of all stripes.
I also pointed out what anti-Zionists did to Christians in Gaza, as a result of pressuring the Israelis to abandon yet more land to the Islamic antichrists, in exchange for yet another false promise of peace (since Muslims don't consider any contract between Muslims and infidels as binding on Muslims).
http://www.modernzionism.com/zionism_in_christianity.htm#christianity_in_zionism
QuoteMy new book on Jewish history shows that nearly all Jews are converts to Judaism after 70 AD. The Sephardic Jews are Berber and European converts of the 6th century, while the Ashkenazi Jews are of 7th century Turkish-Khazar origin. All the documentation for my book comes directly from professors who are Jewish and live in Israel.
My thoughts are very straight forward. If Satan made a counterfeit Christianity called Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, it is only logical that he could make a group of counterfeit Jews.
I went to the links that you recommended and it was clear that they were filled with speculative theology.
You choose to separate yourself from nearly 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine, yet characterize a theology within the traditional historicist approach to prophecy - through which you yourself understand Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled, and through which available evidence suggests the church understood New Testament prophecy was being fulfilled, until the Roman Jesuit counter-reformation pop-eschatologies of preterism and futurism began to come into vogue in the 19th century - as "speculative theology"?
Quoteand history.
History is a matter of record, not speculation. You would likely agree that scripture is not about Peoria Illinois, but is best considered through an ethnographic hermeneutic, since scripture is about God's people and the area they inhabit(ed). Particularly when considering John's assignment, for example:
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
As suggested by Strong's, for example:
world
New Testament Greek Definition:
3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay}
feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by
implication of 1093); TDNT - 5:157,674; n f
AV - world 14, earth 1; 15
1) the inhabited earth
1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in
distinction from the lands of the barbarians
1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire1c) the whole inhabited earth, the world
1d) the inhabitants of the earth, men
2) the universe, the world
What does the prophet John's first century "whole world" look like today?
(http://www.beholdthebeast.com/1ead4250.png)
With the exception of Israeli Jews, Israeli Christians and Israeli non-Muslims Arabs, that enjoy the protection of their freedom, liberty and right to self-determination offered by the democracy of the Israeli Jewish State (which people you claim do not exist - yet there they are), John's "whole world" has already been conquered by the antichrist false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom beast. Outside of Israel a near unanimity have already been marked by the name of the beast - Islam.
While you pay lip service to hermeneutics, why not try applying some, to the lion-bear-leopard "beast" of Revelation 13?
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm
The Islamic conquest of John's "whole world" is not a matter of "speculation", but a matter of undeniable historical fact, and present day reality. Even as we continue to watch churches burned in what was less than a century ago, quite cosmopolitan Egypt.
QuoteIslam is a false religion that is experiencing short term growth, ........
Pretty difficult for me to view 1400 years as "short term" with 1.5 billion followers - 1/4 of mankind in the world today - specifically antichrist as an article of their faith in the false prophet Muhammad alone. Who must also deny the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Christ, and thus His shed blood, as an article of faith in the false prophet Muhammad.
Quote....... however it has one serious weakness. That weakness is that it is built on the pedophile Mohammed.
This has been what you call a "weakness" and common knowledge among Muslims for 1400 years. They have compensated for this by murdering those that criticize Muhammad for it - or criticize him for anything else for that matter. Even today in Pakistan the penalty for "blasphemy" against the false prophet Muhammad is death (what they call "insulting our prophet" who of course insults himself through their own books, while those they consider blasphemers are simply pointing it out). The Pakistanis are making great headway in promoting the institution of anti-blasphemy laws at the U.N. with eventual outlawing speaking against Muhammad, on a global scale. Today in Canada, pastors are imprisoned for speaking out against homosexuality.
Today we see politicians around the world terrified and intimidated by Muslims. The Muslim Brotherhood has basically taken control of U.S. national security, as the arbiters of what can be said and taught, regarding Islam in terms of national security. Our boys were passing out Bibles as host gifts to Pakistanis that invited them to dinner - the only weapon God gave us to engage this enemy with - and the military collected up the rest and burned them. Your theology has prevented you from seeing objective reality. Beginning with the restoration of Jews to Israel.
http://www.modernzionism.com/zionism_in_prophecy.htm
As date pinned by Daniel through two parallel math problems that span 2500 years.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm
QuoteOnce Muslims begin to understand the history of Mohammed, they will leave in large numbers.
Begin to understand? They haven't for 1400 years. While the Holy Spirit is moving in a big way today outside of the dead western church (Miraculous Movements is a good read), however at the present rate of being overrun by Muslims even Sweden would be ruled under Sharia law within two generations - provided Christ doesn't return first.
QuoteI have seen this with the rapid decline in the number of Mormons, because they finally know about the polygamy of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Similarly, I predict in 200 years that Islam will only be a footnote in human history.
Comparing Mormons with Muslims is apples to oranges. Mormons believe Jesus was crucified and believe they are saved by His shed blood. Muhammadans must reject the Son of God and His blood as articles of faith in Muhammad.
My full time efforts with a few youtube channels, websites and a chat forum are directed toward Muslims, but until one ministers to Muslims, one cannot understand the power of the spirit of antichrist that fills them.
And your efforts are directed toward......
oh yea that's right, dividing the body of Christ through a home-spun doctrine that stands outside of nearly 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine, and further blinds the "church" to the false prophet Muhammad, while helping to denigrate Jews and advance the Islamic conquest of Israeli Jews, Christians and non-Muslim Arabs.
http://www.modernzionism.com/palestine_palestinians.htm
Quote
God Bless,
Rev. Dr. Gerald Haug
(this was composed mostly on the 3rd but sent early on the 4th)
Embeded.
Quote
Ronald,
The link http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm is a case study of Christians taking scripture out of context.
I see a declaration, but devoid of comment on the odds of the math.
QuoteTo read a counter-explanation read Chapter 15 and 16 of my book. So at the end of the day, we can argue for hours about how the other person is wrong.
There is no need to argue, as scripture offers us a simple shortcut, rather than having to trade proof texted verses that spring from our self-indoctrination. And blessedly, as regards this particular subject, of the restoration of Jews to Israel, offers more clarity than any other. Here is that shortcut:
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
You can embellish 17th century Roman Catholic Jesuit Luis Alcazar's counter-reformation heresy in a book until you are blue in the face, but that won't undo the matter of fact physical historical reality, of the restoration of Jews to Israel. Their having built it from the abject desolation of 200 years ago to becoming one of the world's leading economies, with that tiny little strip of land becoming the geopolitical focus of the whole world, and the bane of most unregenerates of the world.
When Alcazar penned his ruse, he didn't have the benefit of having witnessing this stunning reality, the realization of which scripture suggests would make even "the heathen" know He is Lord.
http://www.modernzionism.com/zionism_in_prophecy.htm
Christians today enjoy the benefit of having had that stunning reality come to pass, yet preterists amazingly still rail against that reality, because it doesn't fit their doctrine. It is obvious to those with eyes to see, that preterism should have been most embarrassingly relegated to the dustbin of history.
Your doctrine, like Roman Catholics and other supersessionists, precludes you from being able to believe that restoration of Jews to Israel is of the Lord, even though Christians anticipated it through prophecy, hundreds of years before that restoration ever began to take place.
http://www.modernzionism.com/zionism_in_christianity.htm
Your aversion to that reality even inspiring you to set out on a personal mission to proclaim that Jews aren't Jews, as a further expression of your hostility toward this very physical matter of historical fact. Perhaps next you will be doing another republishing of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. At least that's the direction that those in Arnold Murray's anti-Zionist Serpent Seed Cult tend to go.
Since your self-indoctrination has precluded you from even considering, that the restoration of Jews to Israel is of the Lord, you must then conclude it to be of Satan since we would both agree that it obviously did not take place in a spiritual vacuum.
That means that one of us has been deceived by Satan, and perhaps we could even say, follows Satan in this regard.So since you fail to recognize, that Jesus did not return in the same manner in which He left, let's judge by the fruit as the verse quoted earlier recommends.
As a Zionist I am joined by the majority of Israeli Jews, Israeli Christians, Israeli non-Muslim Arabs - as well as tens, or perhaps even hundreds of millions of evangelical Christians around the world. I am also joined by those great men of God of the Reformation like Isaac Newton, Matthew Henry, and puritans like Thomas Brightman and John Owen who all anticipated this restoration through prophecy, centuries before it ever began to take place.
In stark contrast, as an anti-Zionist you are joined by the majority of Israeli Muslims - as well as non-Israeli self-described Christians such as Arnold Murray and his Serpent Seed cult, David Duke and the KKK, Jeremiah Wright, and Ted Pike (google Ted Pike's wife and decide if those anti-Zionists are enjoying God's protection), who are joined by a unanimity of non-Israeli Muslims from around the world, and Louis Farrakan and his Nation of Islam, as well as secular groups like communist Soviets, the United Nations, George Soros and his Center for American Progress, white supremacists, Nazis, skinheads, and anti-Semites of all stripes. You can deny you are in the KKK and I will of course believe you,
but that doesn't change the fact that you, and David Duke and the KKK are all anti-Zionist.
QuoteI usually like to get to the chase by asking a person what their academic credentials are?
Not surprising that you look to the approval of men while avoiding the points of scripture I raised. For openers, blessedly, I have not been indoctrinated by a seminary (relatively modern inventions).
My last church home was Calvary Chapel (in which I was saved), until I overcame Darby's doctrine, thanks to a dear sweet 86 year old elder named Ellis Skolfield, who was raised in the scriptures on his mother's knee as missionaries in the Philippines.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_false_prophet.htm#ellis_skolfield
I have spent countless hours with him over the last perhaps 8 years, frequently running things by him about which I have questions. For over 30 years he has written about Islam in Bible prophecy. This subject of the seat of Muhammad's Islamic kingdom "beast" should be no surprise to anyone with the ability to apply an adjacent hermeneutic to the terms leopard, bear and lion used in Revelation 13.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm
I also run things by another elder that [redacted some unimportant personal information for purposes of public posting] I am in contact with him frequently running questions that come up by him.
QuoteAlso I would like to know if they are a Calvinist, .......
No, though interestingly Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah", was into predestination too.
Since over the last two centuries the traditional historicist approach to New Testament prophecy has been abandoned by the pop-church, it would be difficult to find an institution to assign me to. Indeed it is difficult for me to find a church home. I remained at Calvary Chapel for a while, but I eventually recognized how much influence Darby's doctrine had on the rest of their teaching that I was called out of that institution.
Quote....... King James ONLY Bible, .......
No, though I believe it is the best we have (while perhaps not the best messenger, just consider the verse comparisons in New Age Bible Versions by Riplinger). I set my NKJV aside after noticing the term "antichrist" is selectively capitalized. I use the KJV in conjunction with Strong's and Greek and Hebrew interlinears, and at times will quote a more pop-version, if it is more consistent with the Koine Greek. Like using both the KJV and NKJV for the article "the" in kingdom and tribulation of Revelation 1:9.
Though I couldn't help but notice that you quote from a such a modern pop-bible that it wasn't even conceived until 1995, and gee, skewed I wonder to whose benefit? I even found a guy who actually thinks it's funny to suggest: "I now wittily refer to it as the “ultimate heretic bible†because it contains the signatures of some of the most notable or shall I say, most notorious preterist’s in America."
http://preterism.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-preterist-heretic-bible
Quote.....and the type of church they belong to?
The ecclesia I am part of "belongs" to Christ, and meet online, or anywhere else that two or more of us are gathered together. If you are in bondage to an institution, I recommend Frank Viola's "Pagan Christianity".
QuoteUsually these four things reveal very much. Most people who like to argue with me will not answer these four questions.
I "argue" (rebuke) with you because I am concerned, perhaps not as much for you, as I am for the people that you touch with a
heresy that stands outside of nearly 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine. I am as concerned for them as I would have been for those touched by Simon Magus. In particular my relatives that gave me the book.
The reason obviously being the scriptures warning us that your words "doth eat as a canker" that overthrows the faith of some:
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
QuoteYou incorrectly characterize me as some type of liberal theologian.
No, I pointed out that liberals use Jesuit Alcazar's immediate audience hermeneutic at their convenience, to create their own path, and ignore church ordinances as not applying to today's church.
QuoteI would be willing to bet that I lead a much more conservative lifestyle than you do.
Not sure why you would wish to make it personal, but for the last 8 years or so I have spent about 8 to 12 hours a day, generally 7 days a week, particularly now preaching Christ crucified to 1.5 billion Muslims online. Doesn't leave a lot of time for much else. I wake up wide eyed in morning, generally between 4 and 5 AM, like a kid on Christmas morning every day.
QuoteIn addition my wife is in proper biblical submission to her husband even though she does not wear a head covering. She dresses conservatively and does not nag, complain, or act passive aggressive as I have seen some women who wear "head coverings" do.
See what I mean? Does the ordinance say "your wife should dress conservatively"? No. You are excusing away her disobedience to Christ - and worse by denegrating women who observe that ordinance. It is a simple matter of obedience. Your statement even suggests that you understand what she should be doing, yet you created your own excuses, for defying what you know Jesus Christ expects of you and your wife. You CHOOSE to ignore church ordinances, you CHOOSE disobedience, to go your own way.
Here's more fruit of what happens to the body, when we ignore ordinances, and don't "try the spirits", for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBpw2oQrvMM
Here's another free book by brother Skolfield, "Demons in the Church", that primarily deals with church ordinances.
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/demons_in_the_church.htm
QuoteAlso it is apparent that you have not read ( or understood) all of my book.
I will admit that I began directly by seeking out the parts that I knew would reveal it as partial or hyper pretist. The relative who gave it to me, husband had given me a heretical pamphlet named "Matthew Twenty-Four An Exposition" also by an anti-Zionist supersessionist named J. Marcellus Kik, so I had a good idea as to what to expect. Indeed at the time the book was handed to me I asked if the author believes that the resurrection of the dead and Second Coming of Christ happened in the first century, and rather than being honest and simply answering, she (the Spirit?) couldn't bring herself to form the words to admit the simple truth, and instead said "just read the book". Plus I've chatted with preterists ad nauseum online over the years.
QuoteThe arguments are logically very tight......
I suppose that is why you did not respond to the specifics of my replies. Like regarding whether you believe Jesus to return, in the same manner in which everyone saw Him leave, or not?
Quote..... and have convinced numerous premillennialists, amillennialist, and postmillennialists that ortho-millennialism is the only correct interpretation.
My friend, 1.5 billion people in the world today have been convinced by men, that Muhammad is a prophet of God. You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
All I need to do is simply judge by the fruit of anti-Zionism to very quickly know which side I want my Lord and Savior to find me on. Also by the fruit of Roman Church styled punitive supersessionism.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/supersessionism_replacement_theology.htm#roman_catholic_supersessionism
QuoteYou are probably the author of the various links that you have sent,......
Several websites as well as a few youtubes and operation of a chat forum in which I would like to include our chat.
Quote....... and thus you have a vested interest in supporting your position.
As my sites state, I neither solicit nor accept donations. My "vested interest" is helping the body of Christ overcome the pop-19th century popularized Roman Jesuit counter-reformation heresies of perterism and futurism, while guiding the the body of Christ back to the
traditional historicist approach to prophecy.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm
My materials are the result of first having spent years in Christian forums inviting others to help in trying and testing, prodding and probing, first Skolfield's material, and as a result over the years continuing to embellish as I was led to more and more questions that ever increasingly confirm and compliment the prior material rather than contradict it. I uploaded the original site BeholdTheBeast and kept adding content until it became too large, and the material subjects to diverse. This was mainly the result of my increasing burden of ministry to Muslims and having those chats also guide me through new subjects, like the history of Mecca (particularly from Dr. Rafat Amari's "Islam: In Light of History") and Christian eschatology in general, and so the number of sites grew.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/
QuoteIf you are wrong, almost two-thirds of your weblinks would have to be rewritten.
Interesting thing for you to say. I could indeed rewrite, upload, and it would be done (though archived websites are available at least back to the early 1990s). Indeed would have over the last 8 years if things had been other than increasingly confirmed.
You, on the other hand, are profiting from a book on which your name may as well be etched in stone as the responsible party for, each and every physical copy that is in circulation that has been and will be produced. Even if you change your position you could not possible retrieve those books and apologize. It is done. Irrevocably and irredeemably a continuing witness against you before Christ, who will indeed return, in the same manner in which He left.
This is why I can be perfectly comfortable pointing out to you that irrevocable position perhaps wouldn't be so bad if it were a minor position within the church, and perhaps just an expression of a unique position,
however you are peddling a horrific heresy that stands outside of nearly 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine, yet that doesn't even seem to concern you.
Your error is made even more apparent when we consider that it joins you with anti-Zionist Muslims, Nazis, skinheads and the KKK toward
advancing the Islamic conquest of Israel and the subjugation of Israeli Jews, Christians and Israeli non-Muslim Arabs to Muhammad's followers.Even as you see the fruit of the Zionist tree, and compare it with the fruit of the anti-Zionist tree that you inhabit, it doesn't seem to phase you. Really quite amazing.
QuoteYour claim that I am an amillennialist shows that you fundamentally do not understand the science of hermeneutics.
So you are not in the kingdom of Jesus Christ. Have it your way.
QuoteThose who fail to understand hermeneutics will commit "theological malpractice" without realizing it.
Again paying lip service to heremeneutics, yet again without showing me a comparison between your hermeneutic exegesis of John's leopard-bear-lion "beast" of Revelation 13, as compared to the one on my web page.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm
Could the reason be that you are embarrassed by the comparison, after seeing the simple and sound solution arrived at by brother Skolfield? Why don't you read it and compare it with the one included in your one-off, stand-alone, heresy that stands outside of nearly 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine.
In speaking with other preterists I get stuff like "well leopard, bear and lion are fierce animals and so that indicates the antichrist Nero was ferocious...." etc. etc. Silly stuff. How about yours?
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm
QuoteGod Bless,
Rev. Gerald Haug
(The following was sent before he received my reply to his prior email (which answered most of the points), and before I read this one after sending that reply)
(7-4)
QuoteRonald,
I lived with Muslims for four years and I am quite familiar with them. It is interesting that you did not answer my questions.
1. Are you Calvinist?
2. Do you believe that all other English Bibles besides the King James have been corrupted?
3. What denomination or type of church do you attend?
4. What are your academic credentials?
5, Do you actually have a copy of my book?
It is clear that you are invested in your Islam as the Antichrist position. I am not sure if you read my discussion on Revelation 13 (see chapter 24) of my book. Your discussion on Revelation 13 is an example of having a particular polemic and bending scripture to fit your preconceived ideas. The Bible says that Christ has given us a sound mind and not a spirit of fear. Most of what you write comes from a spirit of fear, thus it cannot be from God. We are commanded to tests the spirits and it is clear that you have been deceived and live in deception. Most likely you do not attend any regular worship service. In addition your exegesis of scripture reveals someone who is not versed in proper biblical scholarship. I can only assume that you have no systematic Bible training..
God Bless,
Rev. Gerald Haug
QuoteQuoteThe following was sent before he received my reply to his prior email, nor did I read this one until after I had sent that reply, that took several hours to compose.
Ronald,
I lived with Muslims for four years and I am quite familiar with them. It is interesting that you did not answer my questions.
1. Are you Calvinist?
2. Do you believe that all other English Bibles besides the King James have been corrupted?
3. What denomination or type of church do you attend?
4. What are your academic credentials?
5, Do you actually have a copy of my book?
It is clear that you are invested in your Islam as the Antichrist position.
Since that is not my position, I could hardly be invested in that position. Try again.
Are you denying that Islam is antichrist? Are you denying that each and every one of Muhammad's followers are antichrist as an article of their faith in Muhammad alone?
Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
1 John 2:22 .....He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:
http://www.petewaldo.com/
QuoteI am not sure if you read my discussion on Revelation 13 (see chapter 24) of my book. Your discussion on Revelation 13 is an example of having a particular polemic and bending scripture to fit your preconceived ideas.
No, it is the obvious conclusion through an adjacent hermeneutic that points to the seat of the leopard-bear-lion kingdom beast, within
the traditional historicist approach to bible prophecy that doesn't necessarily and absolutely discard nearly 2,000 years of Christian era history as relevant to Bible prophecy - as your unique heresy does that stands outside of nearly 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine.
QuoteThe Bible says that Christ has given us a sound mind and not a spirit of fear. Most of what you write comes from a spirit of fear, thus it cannot be from God.
Sure, everyone who anticipates eventually being martyred as a result of being in ministry to Muslims, is guided by a spirit of fear. What I write is supported by the historical record of the Christian era. What you write necessarily excludes it as relevant - in spite of the stunning reality of the restoration of Jews to Israel. Simply amazing how self-imposed blindness to physical reality, by doctrine, can influence a person.
QuoteWe are commanded to tests the spirits .......
Yet you reject simple church ordinances and go your own way.
Quote..... and it is clear that you have been deceived and live in deception.
And how did you test the spirits to make that "clear" determination? In accordance with the scriptures that describe the test? No. You created your own phony test, based on your own false presumptions, the same way that you go your own way in regard to church ordinances, and now as far as peddling a heresy that stands outside the church.
Are you unable to even read and comprehend scripture? What does scripture say about trying spirits?
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/spirits_in_my_house.htm
You simply made another empty declaration, in a hollow effort to tilt against an individual, who is calling you out on your heresy.
QuoteMost likely you do not attend any regular worship service.
As I expressed in my last email it is true that I am not in bondage to a "church" institution, nor to nicolations that falsely fancy themselves to be in positions of authority, over God's heritage.
QuoteIn addition your exegesis of scripture reveals someone who is not versed in proper biblical scholarship. I can only assume that you have no systematic Bible training..
God Bless,
Rev. Gerald Haug
PS
Quote"I lived with Muslims for four years and I am quite familiar with them."
It wouldn't surprise me if you didn't enjoy sharing common ground with them, as regards your hearts for Jews.
“Hence I observe these things, first that the restauration of the Jewish nation so much spoken of by the old Prophets respects not the few Jews who were converted in the Apostles days, but the dispersed nation of the unbelieving Jews to be converted in the end when the fullness of the Gentiles shall enter, that is when the Gospel (upon the fall of Babylon) shall begin to be preached to all nations. Secondly that the prophecies of Isaiah described above by being here cited by the Apostle is limited to respect the time of the future conversion and restitution of the Jewish Nation, and
thirdly that the humour which has long reigned among the Christians of boasting our selves against the Jews, and insulting over them for their not believing, is reprehended by the Apostle for high â€"mindedness and self-conceipt, and much more is our using them despightfully, Pharisaicall and impious†- Sir Isaac Newton
http://www.modernzionism.com/zionism_in_christianity.htm#christians_on_zionism
Roman Catholic styled:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/supersessionism_replacement_theology.htm#roman_catholic_supersessionism
PPS
Your playing fast and loose by exchanging a personal understanding, for the scriptures that explain how to "try the spirits", wouldn't seem a cry from that of the famous Greek sophist styled antichrist entertainer Ahmed Deedat's understanding of them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLnEZ4nUhoU
7-5-13
While I replied to your question as best as I could regarding church attendance, in the light of your mention of the "Assemblies of God", the denomination and type of church that you yourself attend may have some relevance.
"3. What denomination or type of church do you attend?"
As you put it: "I usually like to get to the chase by asking a person .... the type of church they belong to? Usually these four things reveal very much."
Thanks Dr. Haug
7-5
QuoteRonald,
I reviewed several Ellis Skofiled links and it is clear that our theological frameworks are quite different. One important fact to understand is that EVERY church father as well as Josephus thought that the 70th week of Daniel referred to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Furthermore Eusebius is considered the first preterist. If you would read my book, you may learn a thing or two.
Eusebius practiced the historical grammatical hermeneutic, while Augustine, Origin, Clement and others DID NOT.
God Bless,
Rev. Gerald Haug
That didn't address the only question asked, which is the same question you asked of me, which is what denomination do you belong to, or type church do you attend?
So sorry Dr. Haug, I thought your most recent email was a reply to the most recent email I sent, which it wasn't. I'll wait for your reply to that one.
Regarding your contention in this email that "EVERY church father as well as Josephus thought that the 70th week of Daniel referred to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD" that is simply not true, and you should be more careful since a falsehood is no less of a falsehood whether it is intended or not. Did you immortalize that "fact" by etching it in the indelible stone of your book?
Didn't Irenaeus and Hippolytus believe Daniel's 70th week was in their future?
Sorry again, I just noticed that was your completely unrelated reply, to the question I asked.
Quote"Furthermore Eusebius is considered the first preterist. If you would read my book, you may learn a thing or two."
I wouldn't have learned that, as it the claim has been made to me repeatedly by preterists in Christian chat forums. Just as futurists make the claim that Irenaeus was the first futurist. Yet there is little to no evidence of either doctrine being in the church during the Christian era.
Perhaps yours was in reply to my earlier pointing out that Jesuit Luis Alcazar is credited with preterism in the modern church - because he is. It was his anti-reformation invention that the Roman Catholic Church used in arguments against the Reformers.
"There has historically been general agreement with non-preterists that the first systematic preterist exposition of prophecy was written by the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar during the Counter Reformation.[9][10] Moses Stuart noted that Alcasar's preterist interpretation was of considerable benefit to the Roman Catholic Church during its arguments with Protestants,[11]"
No surprise then that just decades before Alcazar's invention, the Roman Church had tried trotting out Jesuit Francisco Ribera's anti-reformation futurist invention.
Of course the Reformers didn't buy either heresy. Those same great men of God that rescued the ecclesia from the dead formalism of the Roman Church, went on continuing to understand bible prophecy within the traditional historicist context. The traditional approach through which all Jews and Christians understand Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled, and the church understood New Testament prophecy was fulfilled, until the pop-heresies of preterism and futurism began to come into vogue during the 19th century.
Indeed even in the 19th century Jamison, Faucett and Brown mentioned the day-year language as applied to one of the problems assigned to us in Revelation, common with Skolfield's approach, as common knowledge among Christians:
"..... in the wilderness 'a thousand two hundred and threescore days.' In the wider sense, we may either adopt the year-day theory of 1260 years..."
Which should be no surprise since a partial list of those that recognized the day-year language, that necessarily requires the traditional historicist approach to prophecy include:
Augustine (AD 430)
Nahawendi (Jewish) (AD 8-9th century)
Jehoram (AD 10th century)
Abraham bar Hiyya (Jewish) (AD 1136)
Arnold of Villanova AD (1292)
Tichonius (AD 380)
Joachim of Floris (AD 1202)
John Wycliffe (AD c.1379)
Nicholas of Cusa (AD c.1452)
Martin Luther (AD 1522)
Phillip Melanchthon (AD 1543)
Johan Funck (AD 1558)
James I of England (AD 1600)
Sir Isaac Newton (AD 1727)
plus
Theileman Van Braght
Matthew Henry
Which doesn't even include historicists that did not recognize the day-year language.
Meanwhile you are up to your gills in Roman Catholic Jesuit eschatology and the punitive supersessionism that results from it. While I am comforted in my approach by running with not only those great men of God of the Reformation, but throughout the Christian era as well as the Old Testament saints, when I look toward those of the "former age" and the traditional historicist context. Which today can be easily recognized, places the false prophet Muhammad squarely in the bullseye as THE false prophet of the book of Revelation, with 1/4 of mankind in the world today that follow him, necessarily being antichrist - to the man - as an article of their faith in the false prophet Muhammad. Who must reject the crucifixion of Christ and His shed blood as another article of their faith.
And I notice you still haven't addressed that 800 pound gorilla in the room, which is the fruit of the tree of Zionists, as compared to the fruit of the tree of anti-Zionists.
QuoteRonald,
Answer: I am a minister with the Assemblies of God, and fellowship with other like minded believers in our city twice a week.
Let me quote page 356 of my book:
"At this point, it is important to discuss the origins of Premillennialism, as it has no solid scriptural support. It is true that some of the earliest writings and church fathers supported premillennialism or chiliasm (Latin for millennium). So this, at first glance, would make a strong case for premillennialism. However, instead of using the Bible or the book of Revelation as a source, these early church fathers used two first century Jewish apocalyptic pseudepigraphical documents, 2 Baruch and 4 Ezra, to support their premillennial position. Pseudepigraphical documents are texts whose authorship is attributed falsely to a renowned individual of the distant past. Early church father Papias (70â€"155 AD) drew from 2 Baruch, which later influenced Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and other second and third century church fathers. Many of these early church fathers, however, believed some very heretical doctrine. For example, Justin Martyr, a second century premillennialist and church father, did not even believe that Christ was the second person of the Trinity. Jerome even said that many of the church fathers were men of “little learning.†As scholarship grew, via men such as Jerome and Augustine, chiliasm was finally declared a heresy at the Ecumenical Council of Constantinople in 381 AD. Thus, premillennialism or chiliasm disappeared from Christendom until it reappeared in a modified form in the early 1800s (cf. Hill, Regnum Caelorum: Patterns of Millennial Thought in Early Christianity)."
So you are correct some of the church fathers quoted non-canonical texts to come up with futurism and believe in a future 70th week. However, I will give another quote from my book:
From Page 153 of my book:
"While the interpretation of Daniel’s 70th week is often debated among theologians, many early church fathers, such as Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Athanasius, Augustine, and Eusebius take the stance that the 70th week of Daniel was fulfilled by 70 AD. Even eminent eighteenth century Baptist commentator, John Gill, and renowned nineteenth century Methodist commentator, Adam Clarke, both regarded the 70th week as fulfilled. So, we are in agreement with some very good company.
Conclusion: Eusebius was a preterist, and MANY of the church fathers believed in a 70 AD fulfillment of Daniel's 70th week. Thus I am in good historical company. YOU have resurrected a doctrine that was declared a heresy in 381 AD. So I ask you one simple question: Are you resisting 2000 years of church history?
I recommend that you read my book. It will CORRECT some of your WRONG assumptions.
Regards,
Gerald Haug
Best Regards,
Rev. Gerald Haug
QuoteRonald,
Answer: I am a minister with the Assemblies of God, and fellowship with other like minded believers in our city twice a week.
(still 7-5)
That may help. Have you spoken in tongues?
I was able to answer that question myself at the AG website (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/baptmhs_faq_tongues.cfm#onlyevidence).
"The first physical sign of the infilling of the Spirit is speaking in tongues."
Is speaking in tongues involved in all of your worship services among your brethren?
Would it be safe for me to assume that each time the spirit gives utterance through yourself or your brothers or sisters, that you "try the spirit", perhaps about as often as your wife wears a head covering to church?
QuoteYes, I speak in tongues. Even Calvary Chapel churches and Chuck Smith have no problem with "speaking in tongues" or other spiritual gifts.
And of course I too recognize speaking in tongues as being a gift of the spirit - when it is the holy Spirit. But you avoided the question. Let's try it again:
Would it be safe for me to assume that each time a spirit gives utterance through yourself or your brothers or sisters, that you "try the spirit", perhaps about as often as your wife wears a head covering to church?
QuoteI am not sure where you are going with this. My wife never wears a physical head covering. However, I tests the spirits numerous times per day. So I am not sure what your point is. God spoke to me supernaturally that premillennialism was a heresy during a church service. The minister was speaking on Israel and the end-times and I had been a Christian only 1 month and the Holy Spirit said everything was all wrong. I blew that "word of knowledge" off for several years until I learned more about the Bible. Roughly 4 years ago, God gave me supernatural insight into how to read Matthew 24, Daniel, and Revelation. I have also consulted with Bible scholars outside of the Assemblies of God to see if my exegesis of Scripture was correct. Not a single scholar could refute my position.
QuoteI am not sure where you are going with this. My wife never wears a physical head covering.
That's right.
And Pentecostals also put female preachers in positions of authority over men.
QuoteHowever, I tests the spirits numerous times per day. So I am not sure what your point is.
Earlier in our chat you proclaimed a judgment about me that suggested, that you thought you had tried the spirit, and that gave you license to declare that I was driven by a spirit of fear. This demonstrated to me that you had no idea what the verses test.
I would appreciate it if you would be more specific as to how you try the spirits "numerous times per day" and exactly what the response was from the spirit (both of the elder brethren I mentioned as well as other brethren of mine have considerable experience in this). Please quote as verbatum as you are able to remember.
QuoteGod spoke to me supernaturally that premillennialism was a heresy during a church service. The minister was speaking on Israel and the end-times and I had been a Christian only 1 month and the Holy Spirit said everything was all wrong. I blew that "word of knowledge" off for several years until I learned more about the Bible. Roughly 4 years ago, God gave me supernatural insight into how to read Matthew 24, Daniel, and Revelation. I have also consulted with Bible scholars outside of the Assemblies of God to see if my exegesis of Scripture was correct. Not a single scholar could refute my position.
QuoteRonald,
I am really only interested in discussing eschatology and hermeneutics. Steering the conversation to the "testing the spirits" is a discussion that will take up numerous lengthy emails to properly explain. So I will decline in answering it.
Just for the record, my wife and I absolutely disagree with the AG position of placing women in positions over men. I disagree with the AG on several doctrines, but I have found them a very effective fellowship in many other regards, especially since my main focus in missions to Chinese students.
Regards,
Gerald Haug
QuoteRonald,
I am really only interested in discussing eschatology and hermeneutics. Steering the conversation to the "testing the spirits" is a discussion that will take up numerous lengthy emails to properly explain. So I will decline in answering it.
I've never seen a Pentecostal "try the spirits" even a single time, including when I visited a Pentecostal Church because wanted to talk in tongues, during which a fairly new parishioner jumped up and vibrated unnaturally, with his arms stuck out in front of him like he was sleepwalking, while jabbering on in glossolalia, while another member in the background repeatedly shrieked in a gutteral voice (sounded a bit like a loud sneeze) while bending 90 degrees at the waist and straightening up, over and over and over, while drooling profusely with his eyes rolling around in their sockets. I kept wondering when someone was going to step up and deliver the poor guy from his demon, but then realized that the regulars there, thought it was the holy Spirit making him do that.
I've probably got a good idea as to the kind of answers the spirit replied to you with as I've heard about their deceitful tricks when tested. I don't view the subject of tongues as an ancillary to our subject, but based on your earlier false "test", perhaps germane to where the spirits have taken you theologically.
And you might not remain so confused if you didn't keep interchanging conversation about the four approaches to Bible prophecy, with the approaches and opinion on the millennium. Further, you wrote:
QuoteI recommend that you read my book. It will CORRECT some of your WRONG assumptions.
I didn't proclaim an assumption, but pointed out to you a falsehood that you related to me regarding ALL ECFs, that you admitted was false in the same email. Switching it to MANY rather than a simple admission and apology. Indeed you made things worse, since I assumed it was an innocent mistake, but your further email indicated that you knew the truth, before you proclaimed that falsehood.
However even more amazingly, you said:
Quote"Conclusion: Eusebius was a preterist, and MANY of the church fathers believed in a 70 AD fulfillment of Daniel's 70th week. Thus I am in good historical company. YOU have resurrected a doctrine that was declared a heresy in 381 AD."
Declared a heresy by whom? The Pope? The Roman Church with whom you share preterism and punitive supersessionism?
Which doctrine? Amillennialism? That I believe I am in the kingdom of Jesus Christ right now, because the Gospel suggests that Christ came in his kingdom at His resurrection, while even before having declared the Pharisees "whole house" "desolate", the irrelevance of the desolate temple being further punctuated by the veil being rent in twain at Christ's death. Let alone that before His resurrection He told those around Him that some of them wound not taste of death before they saw the Son of Man come in His kingdom. And that my brother John is my companion in THE kingdom of Jesus Christ. If one is not amillennial, then one doesn't believe they are in the kingdom of Jesus Christ.
Or are you referring to the "heresy" of my approach to prophecy is that of traditional historicism
through which ALL Jews and Christians and you yourself, recognize Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled? In other words,
you are a historicist when it comes to Old Testament prophecy!
It is also the traditional approach through which Christians throughout the Christian era understood New Testament prophecy was being fulfilled, including those great men of God of the reformation.
QuoteSo I ask you one simple question: Are you resisting 2000 years of church history?
Which is simply stunning, and part of the reason I was trying to get down to the bottom of the spirits, that speak through you. I stand with Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Pentecostals, so-called non-denominational denominations, the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox, and any other denominations that can come to your mind, as well as the rest of Christians for the last nearly 2,000 years in CORE doctrine, as we wait for the "blessed hope" of the Second Coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
While you stand with Hymenaeus and Philetus, as what scripture describes as gangrenous appendages that can overthrow the faith of some.
Peddling a horrific anti-Christian heresy (the very definition of it by going against 2,000 years of universal Christianity), yet never even spending a moment to wonder why it lands you among your fellow fruit in the anti-Zionist tree.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=73.0
Jam 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters,
knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And
then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
QuoteJust for the record, my wife and I absolutely disagree with the AG position of placing women in positions over men.
You illustrate the difficulty of being in bondage to an institution in which men usurped the authority and headship of Jesus Christ. Perhaps you even have to sit there with women preaching to you when you have your multiple church assemblies.
So you observe the ordinances that you choose to observe, and reject those you know you should be observing, but just don't feel like observing while you believe you speak for Jesus Christ.
"It is the little foxes that spoil the vine."Before I was saved I attended an Episcopal Church as a compromise church with my wife, who was raised Roman Catholic and still suffers the bondage, though she doesn't attend. We attended mostly to "expose" our kids to "church". Even though I was still unregenerate, when the ECUSA ordained a homosexual as Bishop I left the next week, rather than sit around and stew in apostasy. The Lord had called me out, I was saved a couple months later.
QuoteI disagree with the AG on several doctrines,
It is the little foxes that spoil the vine.
Quotebut I have found them a very effective fellowship in many other regards, especially since my main focus in missions to Chinese students.
I don't believe you are doing those Chinese students a favor by preaching a counter-Christian personal doctrine that furthers the anti-Zionism of Roman Church styled punitive supersessionism while advancing the Islamic conquest of Israel and subjugation of Israeli Jews, Christians and non-Muslim Arabs to Muhammad's followers,
that stands outside of nearly 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine.QuoteRegards,
Gerald Haug
QuoteRonald,
Clearly we will not come to a resolution on this. I apologize for using the EVERY versus MANY distinction when discussing the church fathers. I should have been more precise and thus I ask your forgiveness.
However, I am firmly convinced that Zionism is the doctrine of Satan. I am also convinced that you are unwilling to read my book, so it is pointless to pursue this discussion any further. But I leave you with this thought from pages 51-52 of my book:
"Abomination of Desolation (Matthew 24:15-22)
Matt. 24:15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation â€" spoken about by Daniel the prophet â€" standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),â€
Jesus is reminding his disciples of a prophecy that Daniel spoke in circa 535 BC regarding an event that occurred from 167 BC to 164 BC (Daniel 11:31). In 167 BC, Syrian-Greek King Antiochus Epiphanes IV removed the high priest in Jerusalem and installed someone who was loyal to him. Antiochus dispatched troops to Judea in 167 BC, destroying the temple and its sanctuary. (The basic structure of the temple remained intact and was later restored in 164 BC.) This act did away with the twice daily sacrifice. Antiochus then set up an image of Zeus directly on the altar of the temple â€" thus defiling it. This abomination leads to its desolation by his army’s destruction, in other words, the ‘abomination of desolation’.
Now fast forward to the year 66 AD. The Jewish Zealots did something very similar to what Antiochus Epiphanes IV did. They executed the last true Aaronic high priest â€" Mattathias ben Theophilus. Only a descendant of Aaron could be a high priest. Therefore, the Aaronic high priest lineage had been forever wiped out. This is technically much worse than what Antiochus Epiphanes IV did because without the high priest no one can enter the Holy of Holies and offer atonement for the sins of the nation Israel. As a result, the Zealots appointed a high priest, but not in the lineage of Aaron as God commanded, thus bringing about defilement to the priesthood and temple. Soon after this, the Roman Emperor Nero ordered an initial siege of Jerusalem in April 67 AD and the Roman troops surrounded the city. (In Luke’s account of these same matters, Jesus said that the armies would surround Jerusalem just prior to her desolation â€" Luke 21:20). War was waged in the land for 42 months (3.5 years) and is recorded in Daniel 7:25; 9:24-27; 12:7; Revelation 11:2-3; and 12:14. The battle ended in September 70 AD with the complete annihilation of Jerusalem and the temple. The false high priest and destruction of the temple are the fulfillment of the ‘abomination of desolation’ of which Jesus spoke."
Also from pages 151ff of my book:
What Happened During the Gap in Time?
So what happened during the time between Christ’s ascension in 30 AD and His parousia from 67â€"70 AD? The Babylonian Talmud, the body of Jewish civil and ceremonial law, which includes the Mishnah and the Gemara, contains eyewitness accounts of some of the miraculous events that occurred in the 40-year interval between 30 and 70 AD. On Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement), the priests were required to select two goats. One goat was to be sacrificed on the Lord’s altar and one was to be the scapegoat. The Day of Atonement is the most holy day of the year for Jews. It began during the Exodus and continued until the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. In the Talmud, tractate Yoma 39b lists the occurrence of four unique phenomena:
· The lot for the Lord’s scapegoat (Azazel) was chosen by randomly selecting either a black or white stone. According to Jewish tradition, choosing the white stone meant that God had accepted the sacrifice, while choosing the black stone meant that it was unacceptable. During the previous several hundred years it was split 50/50 between black and white stones. When a black stone was selected it was placed in the left hand while a white stone, if selected, was placed in the right hand. The high priest would randomly select the stone, place it in the corresponding hand, and then raise his hand so the people could see which stone had been selected. During the final 40 years, the high priest had to lift his left hand EVERY time! The probability of that happening is over 10 trillion to 1! This event was a sign to the people that their corporate sins were no longer forgiven by means of animal sacrifices. Why? Jesus had died and risen in the spring of 30 AD. There was no longer any need for corporate forgiveness via animal sacrifices. The Jews needed to repent and turn to the Messiah to receive forgiveness for their sins. Fortunately, many Jews did turn to Jesus and they, along with their Gentile brethren, formed much of the early church.
· Jewish priests would hang a scarlet cord on the scapegoat. This cord, in the years before 30 AD, often used to miraculously turn white, which was reminiscent of Isaiah 1:18 which says, “…though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow.†In the 40 years after 30 AD the cord always remained scarlet; it never turned white.
· Yoma 39b records that the temple doors opened by themselves during those 40 years. This also was a bad sign. The rabbis connected it with Zechariah 11:1, “Open your gates, Lebanon, so that the fire may consume your cedars,†which they believed implied that one day the temple would be burned, as indeed it was in 70 AD.
· Yoma 39b also records the fact that the westernmost light of the menorah in the temple would not stay lit. This was yet another ominous sign, for the westernmost candle was the one used to light all of the other candles.
Bottomline: Judaism rejected the teaching of the apostles and was cursed for 40 years and this lead to the destruction of Jerusalem. Furthermore without a direct descendant from Aaron it became a DEAD religion incapable of making atonement before a Holy God. It is a historic fact that Jews and Palestinians lived in peace until the advent of Zionism. Zionism has only fueled radical Islam. Islam would implode under its own weight if it were not for hatred against Zionism.
Regards,
Rev. Gerald Haug
7-6
QuoteRonald,
Clearly we will not come to a resolution on this.
Indeed, because as I pointed out you stand outside of the entirety of 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine of the body of Christ.
QuoteI apologize for using the EVERY versus MANY distinction when discussing the church fathers. I should have been more precise and thus I ask your forgiveness.
Generally when someone uses all caps, as in ALL their effort is to emphatically and specifically emphasize their being precise, so it wasn't a matter of being imprecise, but I of course forgive you.
QuoteHowever, I am firmly convinced that Zionism is the doctrine of Satan.
(I bolded and increased the font size for purposes of emphasis for posting in the forum)
I can't thank you enough for being one of the few preterists I have encountered that is willing to admit to this. Usually it is as difficult to coax this admission out of a preterist as it is to get Muslims to admit that they believe that praying in Jesus name constitutes a sin worse than mass murder or raping a little girl. Or my relative to admit that your book concludes that the resurrection of the dead and Christ's Second Coming happened in the first century.
And this is indeed where the rubber meets the road. Blessedly, the stunning reality of the restoration of Jews to Israel, brings absolute clarity, while standing as witness to the power of indoctrination. Segregating the whole world, both secular and self-identified Christians, into two distinct camps, with few numbered as indifferent in between.
Thus you cannot deny that you believe that
Satan is on the side of the majority of Israeli Jews, Israeli Christians and Israeli non-Muslim Arabs, as well as tens or more likely hundreds of millions of non-Israeli evangelical Christians around the world.While at the same time you must necessarily believe that
God is on the side of anti-Zionism that is advanced by those like Arnold Murray and his Serpent Seed cult, David Duke and the KKK, Jeremiah Wright, and Ted Pike, who are joined by a near unanimity of the
1.5 billion Muslims around the world, Louis Farrakan and his Nation of Islam, and secular groups like
communist Soviets, the United Nations,
George Soros and his Center for American Progress,
white supremacists, Nazis, skinheads, and anti-Semites of all stripes.If you want to increase your book sales, I recommend you switch churches and peddle it in anti-Zionist, Hezbollah praising, homosexual ordaining churches like the Presbyterian Church, or the dead formalism of the anti-Zionist United Methodist Church or United Church of Christ. Institutions who already fruit the anti-Zionist tree, and along with Nazis and skinheads demonize and persecute Israeli Jews. However it may be that each and every copy of your book that you sell, will stand as testament against you, in judgment.
I agree that this couldn't be a better note to conclude our conversation on, and feel I have fulfilled my obligation in terms of offering you a warning. As well as those that would wander after you to arrive outside of 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine, who believe that just as scripture tells us, Christ will arrive in the same manner in which He left:
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Thus for those that would follow you:
2Cr 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].
And for you, regarding the spirits that are speaking through you and your brethren, I recommend Bondage Breaker by Neil Anderson:
http://selfdefinition.org/hearing-voices/Neil-T-Anderson-The-Bondage-Breaker.pdf
And for your grotesquely out of order institution, Demons in the Church by Ellis Skolfield
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/contents.htm
As well as this chat on tongues I had with a third generation Pentecostal preacher. While you find insight through your 4 questions, when someone comes to the forum that seems as though they may house unclean spirits I generally only need the answer to one question: "Have you ever had any exposure to the Pentecostal Church?":
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1284.msg12020#msg12020
The following video discusses the spirit of Kandalini, that Assemblies of God would seem host to, and the so-called "movements" that have been inspired by that spirit like the "Toronto Blessing" and "Brownsville Revival".
This is a very important video for you and your church:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBpw2oQrvMM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCcGaTRwG_4
I am going to guess that when you "try the spirits" that give utterance through you and your brethren, the spirit does not repeat back to you "I confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh", but rather something more like "I am he". When it obfuscates like that, then try asking "Are you the holy Spirit of Jesus Christ, who was crucified, died and was resurrected from the dead, ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God?"
I'll leave you with this. Since the verses that concluded the last email didn't impress you as a warning, please note the testimony of a very outspoken Talmud thumping anti-Zionist self-proclaimed Christian, Ted Pike, regarding he and his wife's experiences with spirits, and ponder as to whether you believe the experiences those anti-Zionists had, indicate they enjoyed God's protection or more likely stepped out from under the umbrella of God's protection.
http://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/tedpikewifediedmartyr.html
I'll pray for you my wayward friend, and may God bless you and encourage you seek deliverance, from any unclean spirits or demons that you may have received.
Ron
followup on 7-11-13
PS
Dear Dr. Haug,
There was one important point I did not address that has stayed on my mind since our chat. Specifically your misunderstanding of evangelical views in regard to Jews. You wrote:
"I have just completed a 45,000 word book that will be published in the next 6 months that will finally answer that question once and for all. Modern Israel has NOTHING to do with first century Israel. The historical evidence is overwhelming that 100% of Jews are merely converts to Judaism. The fact is that Christians have not studied history as well as they should have. My new book will totally shatter modern Evangelical understanding of Modern Israel."
The premise of your book as described is irrelevant from a Christian perspective. Indeed I have never come across a church, or an individual, that suggests that Jews our anybody else could be saved through their genetic makeup. However there is certainly no shortage of some, such as Nazis and those in the "Christian Identity" movement, that believe God condemns people based on the individual's genetic makeup. The fact of the matter is there are some that believe they are Jews that don't know they are gentiles as well as some that believe themselves to be gentiles that don't know they are Jews. After all, where is the tribe of Ephraim that was prophesied to become so numerous? So your book as described, will perhaps include false accusation against evangelical understanding, that will further demonstrate the carnal as well as anti-Semitic nature of your view.
God's people have always been saved, not through genetics, but through faith and the condition of our hearts:
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
So whether a person is a genetic Jew, or only believes himself to be a Jew and is not, would obviously be irrelevant except to the carnal minded. There are 6 million people in Israel that believe themselves to be Jews, who run the whole gamut from faithful Torah Jews to Messianic Jews to atheists, just as we find gentiles ranging from faithful to atheist. I wonder if when self-proclaimed Christian gentile bigots assign all Jews to a monolithic group and proclaim condemnation, what they are demonstrating is that the condition of their heart, could be akin to what we might find in gentiles when viewed as a monolithic group.
When evangelicals discuss Jews we obviously do not have Jewish atheists in mind. Thus we do not have agnostic or secular Jews in mind. The group of non-Messianic Jews we refer to are faithful Jews, who worship our great God YHWH through the Old Testament scriptures, and whose lives revolve around their temples and faith based communities. Jews who are incapable of calling Jesus accursed:
1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Jews with a circumcision of the heart, but who may remain blind to the Gospel, through a sovereign act of God.....
Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
.....who were always saved by the Son of God.....
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
.....our one mediator:
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Christians who are not so wise in our own conceits as to believe we know all the answers to the "mystery" detailed in Romans 11......
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
.....who believe we may be grafted in AMONG faithful Jews and partake WITH them.....
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
.....who are not so blind ourselves, to believe we can even know much less proclaim, God's judgments:
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Thus I obviously am not about to proclaim that I have all the answers to the mystery regarding Jews in the Christian era, and am grateful that I will not stand before Jesus Christ in judgment after having proclaimed God's judgment, against faithful YHWH worshiping persons who believe themselves to be Jews. Even more obviously I praise the Lord He will not find me as fellow fruit of the anti-Zionist tree if He were to return today for final judgment and divine justice. Again, Isaac Newton regarding the restoration of Jews to their nation, as well as Christians that are wise in their own conceits:
“Hence I observe these things, first that the restauration of the Jewish nation so much spoken of by the old Prophets respects not the few Jews who were converted in the Apostles days, but the dispersed nation of the unbelieving Jews to be converted in the end when the fullness of the Gentiles shall enter, that is when the Gospel (upon the fall of Babylon) shall begin to be preached to all nations. Secondly that the prophecies of Isaiah described above by being here cited by the Apostle is limited to respect the time of the future conversion and restitution of the Jewish Nation, and thirdly that the humour which has long reigned among the Christians of boasting our selves against the Jews, and insulting over them for their not believing, is reprehended by the Apostle for high â€"mindedness and self-conceipt, and much more is our using them despightfully, Pharisaicall and impiousâ€
Your clam: "However, I tests the spirits numerous times per day.", suggests to me that you perhaps neither know how to try the spirits, nor perhaps have ever done so. If that is the case then what spirit could we imagine is putting words in your ear, that has you not only standing but teaching outside of nearly 2,000 years of universal Christian core doctrine, but every Christian denomination today?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBpw2oQrvMM
Ron
QuoteRonald,
In addition, you may question my ability to discern spirits, ........
All this suggestion does is further reinforce that you do not understand how to. It isn't about an ability (though some are called to deliver folks more than others), but it is a matter of employing the test as mandated by scripture. Are you saying that you try the spirits channeled through other people several times a day? The fact that you claimed you try the spirits several times a day demonstrates that you don't. When those spirits are giving utterance through you, does one of your brethren try the spirit?
The following video demonstrates the kind of chaos, that failure to do so has caused in the AoG:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBpw2oQrvMM
I don't wonder if the reason Pentecostals fail to do so, is because they may know in advance, what the result would be. Once folks receive familiar spirits it is sometimes difficult for them to want to let those "friends" go.
Quote........however your interest with the writings of Ellis Skofield shows that you are NOT a scholar, your theology is more X-files than that of a bibliophile.
Muslims attack the messenger too. That's why I offered you other sources on this very important subject, like Neil Anderson, who has delivered thousands of Christians from unclean spirits and demons.
http://selfdefinition.org/hearing-voices/Neil-T-Anderson-The-Bondage-Breaker.pdf
Since you seem to be clueless about this spiritual battle, Ellis Skolfield's "Shining Man With Hurt Hands" offers a peek straight into the spirit world.
http://www.ellisskolfield.net/books
QuoteSeveral of my friends looked at Ellis Skofield's PDF books and thought he was borderline insane and a total twister of Scripture.
Twisting scripture is an interesting accusation coming from someone that believes the dire warning of 2Ti 2:17-18 was only operative for a few years, and then for the 2,000 years thereafter, Christians were expected to believe the EXACT OPPOSITE of that dire warning.
QuoteThe real problem is that you probably have an education than never exceeded that of high school or community college. You fundamentally don't understand anything about ancient literature, hermeneutics, genres, or biblical types. You were probably raised in a disfunctional home and that is why you need to get delivered from crazy ideas.
I understand you are frustrated from having invested yourself so heavily in a unique heresy that stands outside nearly 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine, and even worse feeling like you have to try to peddle it to compensate yourself for your time, but reducing yourself to speculative personal attacks of this nature perhaps only goes to further demonstrate the influence those spirits have over your life.
QuoteI also seriously doubt that your wife wears a head covering. I mean seriously, I have never heard of an Episcopalian church teach about head coverings.
Which further demonstrates the difficulty you have even with reading and comprehension. I explained that we attended the Episcopal Church before I was saved after leaving that church in 2003. For heaven's sakes, the Episcopal Church ignores ordinances and ordains women, just as your church does. I'll put a copy and paste of our chat into the forum for further reference so you don't have to labor under misunderstanding.
QuoteThe Muslim world is in population decline. See article http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/118261. Muslims are being influenced by enlightenment ideas at a very rapid rate and thus secular humanism will destroy Islam rapidly over the next 20 to 40 years.
I'm certainly doing everything I can toward conquering Islam, while folks like you are instead advancing the Islamic conquest of Israel, which of course is just another stepping stone. Thus antizionists are aiding and abetting Islamic censorship of truth. Fruiting the antizionist tree along with Arnold Murray and his Serpent Seed cult, David Duke and the KKK, Jeremiah Wright, and Ted Pike, who are joined by Muslims, Louis Farrakan and the Nation of Islam, and secular groups like communist Soviets, the United Nations, George Soros and his Center for American Progress, white supremacists, Nazis, skinheads, and anti-Semites of all stripes. Your article touts reductions in fertility rates of a few percent, while Muslim birth rates are double to several times that of non-Muslim families in countries they are overrunning, like Sweden.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
You might be wishful, but I can pretty much assure you that even Pentecostals are not going to suddenly flip, so that "their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;"
If you want to peddle books you would be better off attending Jeremiah Wright's Trinity Church of Christ, since they are already partial preterist antizionist anti-Israel anti-Semites right out of the gate. Wright and his buddy Louis Farrakhan even work toward your goal of the Islamic conquest of Israel.
QuoteSecular humanism has been a powerful weapon against Christianity, but it is much more potent against a false religion like Islam.
I employ every angle available to me in various websites. http://www.historyofmecca.com
QuoteThus it is pure fear-mongering to be worried about the Muslims.
Sure, so Islam has been around 1400 years, with 1/4 of mankind in the grip of the false prophet Muhammad today now that the beast has been healed, but they'll just fade away. You suggest you study through the science of hermeneutics, yet don't even seem to be able to grasp the concept of an ethnographic hermeneutic, and just what has happened to the prophet John's "whole world". Your blindness to it is primarily due to your not expecting the Second Coming of Christ, and final judgment and divine justice, as the rest of the church is.
(http://www.beholdthebeast.com/2efa3a90.png)
Failure to understand the power of the sword, and the spirit of antichrist - both in your own church as well as in Islam - even after you antizionists gave Gaza to Muslims, and Christians are beginning undergoing forced conversion.
http://www.persecution.org/category/countries/middle-east/west-bank-and-gaza/
Doctrine induced blindness even to the Muslim brotherhood's increasing influence over our own government, let alone what has happened to, what was once a very cosmopolitan Egypt during this "Arab Spring" Muslim Brotherhood grab of Islamic countries where Christians are being slaughtered and churches burned.
You also don't seem to understand that jihadists, by and large, care not a whit more about religion than Muhammad did, but are little more than criminal Mafia thugs with an interest in global conquest and subjugation of others, just as Muhammad himself was.
http://www.petewaldo.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm
Stealing the wealth that others produce through outright thievery as well as jizya taxes.....
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/18/prominent-muslim-cleric-collect-govt-welfare-as-a-jihad-seekers-allowance/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=norskZDB7QI
......and raping and sexually enslaving the wives and children of the vanquished taken as war booty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V22qDQqMPL0
You need to look at jihadists, more like the Nazis that you run with, rather than being motivated by religion. They are a conquering army, and not a religion, but a cult.
http://prophetofdoom.net/Mein_Kampf.Islam
QuoteThis is typical of paranoid Southern Rednecks, who know more about Nascar, football, and fried chicken than they do about world events or other cultures.
You claimed it took you 10 years to become a Christian, yet your actions suggest you haven't quite gotten there yet. To become a Christian one must be born again, and no amount of smarts in the world, will get you there. Your descent into empty personal attacks, simply provides more evidence, of the spirits that may well be in control of your life. I'll pray for you.
QuoteRegards,
Gerald
QuoteRonald,
You really need to wait for my book on Israel and then YOU WILL NEED TO READ IT!!
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you missed the whole point of my email, which is that the whole subject of your book of drawing distinctions between persons based on genetics, which is irrelevant to a person that walks in the Spirit rather than in the flesh. My God judges folks by the condition of our hearts rather than our genetic makeup. However I'm sure that no shortage of your antizionist peeps in such as the Christian Identity movement and Arnold Murray's Serpent Seed cult, as well as followers of the false prophet Muhammad, will receive it warmly.
QuoteThe real problem is that you probably have an education than never exceeded that of high school or community college. You fundamentally don't understand anything about ancient literature, hermeneutics, genres, or biblical types. You were probably raised in a disfunctional home and that is why you need to get delivered from crazy ideas.
Luke 16:14-16 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. And he said unto them,
Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and
perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
QuoteSecular humanism has been a powerful weapon against Christianity, but it is much more potent against a false religion like Islam.
Powerful weapon against Christianity? I guess that's true if you approach Christianity as a world religion. But 2 Corinthians 10:4-6 (for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but
mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; ) casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; and having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
QuoteRonald,
You may not realize this, but Bondage Breaker by Neil Anderson is one of my favorite books. I have read it several times. The book is very popular in Pentecostal circles. He has written books with C. Peter Wagner who is a Pentecostal. So again, I have no idea what you are saying.
That's because you apparently still have no idea how to try the spirits, if as you claimed you "tests the spirits numerous times per day". Which is likely why you did not detail exactly how you go about it.
QuoteMost of your comments are a mass of confusion.
Indeed you have demonstrated an inability to read and comprehend.
QuoteAs I have said, I doubt that you have the balls to read the chapters from my book.
I read several chapters from your book. I just still can't understand how you think you are peddling anything that other hyper preterists aren't peddling.
QuoteIn typical Southern style, you make rash judgments without reading your opponents viewpoint. This makes you much like my Muslim friends. Muslims, will not read any counter argument to their beliefs, because they are intellectual cowards. I am sure you have much in common with them, and that is why you protest so much.
Yet as you review our exchange it is obvious who has avoided the others points.
QuoteWhen I was a boy, my King James preferred Christian friends would frequently say that Communism was taking over the world and that Communists or some Russian leader was the Antichrist. This was pure fear mongering by dimwitted, inbred, redneck, hillbilly, gun toting, overweight, and uneducated Christians.
No, it was the fruit of John Darby's futurist doctrine. You are apparently unaware that is the doctrine held by tens or perhaps hundreds of millions of evangelicals around the world. What you are also apparently unaware of is that the reason you were exposed to that future predicting is because the Pentecostal Church, as far as I know, is still futurist. At least the Pentecostals I have run into on line have been.
QuoteYes, they were born-again, but that was about it.
Interesting you would fancy yourself the judge of the condition of another person's heart.
QuoteYour rant on Islam is in the same spirit. Ellis Skofield has concocted a system of Bible eisegesis that gives Islam more significance than it deserves.
I know you wish to make it unique to Ellis Skolfield, but it is just how the Reformers would understand bible prophecy today, now that the beast has been healed. Indeed much of the church would today, if it hadn't been indoctrinated into futurism. It isn't rocket science but simple hermeneutics. Tens of millions of Christians understand the first six of John's 8 kings/beasts to have been the successive kingdoms of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and the Roman Empire. Googling that just now, even in quotes, netted 97,000 results. But then the futurists throw out history and hermeneutics as they chase after Darby's "The" "Antichrist" as an individual.
But when we look at the historical record the Roman Empire fell to the First Islamic Jihad. This isn't speculation but matter of fact historical reality. The First Jihad reached its zenith a hundred years after Muhammad, was defeated in the Battle of Tours, and then waned in power up until western powers healed the beast, and financed the Islamic Second Jihad in the image of the Islamic first Jihad through oil purchase and weapons sales. Indeed Obama just sold more jets to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/johns_eight_beasts.htm
Were guys like Isaac Newton and Matthew Henry here today as witness to the healed beast, they would have recognized this immediately, since they applied the same UNIFORM approach to ALL Bible prophecy, of historicism. Let alone their use of the day-year language of prophecy, with which the Reformers were familiar, in common with Skolfield.
QuoteI am firmly convinced that nitwit Christians are a greater threat to Christianity than Islam.
I agree when it comes to at least those who publish heresies like yours that stand outside of 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine, that scripture warns us will eat at the body of Christ as gangrene, and overthrow the faith of some.
QuoteQuestions
1. Does your wife wear a head covering?
No. Nor are my wife and I on the same page theologically, because while she does not attend the Roman Catholic Church, she still suffers the bondage and baggage of being raised as a Roman Catholic.
Quote2. Do you drink alcoholic beverages?
Not generally, though when we go out to dinner with my mother-in-law, for example, I will have a glass of wine because she doesn't want to be the only one at the table with a glass. I will also enjoy a half-beer half-lemonade drink with my wife on occasion.
Do you harbor a fear of drinking a glass of wine, like Muslims, Mormons, and others that are in bondage to the flesh?
Quote3. Do you believe in infant baptism?
Though baptized as an infant I don't. I was baptized in the sea during a Calvary Chapel baptism.
Quote4. What are the ordinances of the church?
What would you care since your institution obviously has no interest in them - from head coverings to ordination of women. If you are interested Google the subject.
QuoteBottomline: Ellis Skofield's timeline is a butchering of Scripture. For example, Ellis has Jesus being crucified at 40 years of age.
You are apparently unaware but even the Roman Catholic Church recently admitted to earlier dating of Jesus' birth.
QuoteThis is pure insanity.
It becomes increasingly apparent where the insanity lies. The term for it is opinion based on evidence. In this case it would seem majority opinion, among scholars. No surprise you would express such a mean spirited and strong opinion though, based upon your apparent ignorance. Try Googling the subject like - earlier dating jesus birth
From the description in the first site on the first page (wikipedia) "Most scholars assume a date of birth between 6 and 4 BC."
Now perhaps you will go off on a rant about Wikipedia, as if it is the only source that dates Jesus birth earlier than our modern calendars, just like you wish Ellis Skolfield's approach were unique, even though it falls within the traditional historicist approach.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm
QuoteLuke says that Jesus started His ministry at 30 years of age. It is well documented that Christ's ministry was 3.5 years. Thus Ellis is a nitwit of astronomical proportions that can easily hoodwink those who have little discernment, education, or lack the ability to test the spirits.
There seems to be no end to your ego and ignorance driven false accusation. Brother Ellis has not only delivered many from unclean spirits and demons, but was even led by the Lord into what wound up resulting in about 8,000 hours in an internet forum he hosted, helping folks that suffer from MPD (or DID as it is more popularly known today), be restored to their monominds through the power of the Holy Spirit. One sufferer that was restored to their monomind had housed as many as 350 alternate personalities. It resulted in a self-help book for such sufferers - Shining Man With Hurt Hands
http://www.ellisskolfield.net/books
Your empty, foolish, ego driven false accusation, even as you continue to remain mute in regard to describing just how you "tests the spirits numerous times per day".
This as your church doctrine suggests that the whole body should be an eye. (1Corinthians 12:17)
"The first physical sign of the infilling of the Spirit is speaking in tongues."
With the expected result of such misunderstanding and heresy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBpw2oQrvMM
Even wreaking havoc on children who are pressured into receiving unclean spirits as "proof" that they received the Holy Spirit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnlEkRGl81M
And my own experience and strictly my personal opinion, regarding unclean spirits and demons in the church, constituting a manifestation of the term "that man of sin":
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/man_of_sin_revealed.htm
QuoteRegards,
Rev. Gerald Haug
QuoteJust for the record Paul made several personal attacks in his writings. I will let you find them yourself. One classic example is when Paul said: One of Crete's own prophets has said it: "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons." (Titus 1:12). Having lived in the South, I can say that it is a culture of laziness, guns, NASCAR, big haired women with lots of makeup, excessive drinking, and hypocrisy.
Certainly not a surprising comment from someone whose bigotry also drives him to view all Jews as a monolithic group. At least you wear it right out there on your sleeve so nobody has to wonder.
QuoteRonald,
1. As a non-Christian I never found a reason to drink alcohol, consequently I don't drink alcohol, except a glass of wine about once per year, but in general I don't like the taste.
I should have mentioned that while I have a glass so my mother in law doesn't have to be the only one at the restaurant table with a glass, when I go out with my brother or am at his house I do not join him but drink water instead, as he may not be in full control of his consumption and I don't want to help him stumble.
Quote2. Evangelicals teach that there are two ordinances in the church, baptism and Holy Communion. Anabaptists add foot-washing as a third ordinance. Episcopalians/Catholics/Anglicans believe in seven sacraments/ordinances. So I am not sure what you are referring to.
Your effort is simply an attempt to excuse away your disobedience, since you had previously admitted that you believe women should not be in authority over men as pastors. Nor did you deny that women should wear head coverings. You only condemned those who are obedient to scripture, which is typical regarding that subject.
Let alone that in the institutions you cite, women wore head coverings, and women were not ordained as pastors up until a half a century ago (with the exception of Pentecostals that have been grotesquely out of order, for the century since Pentecostalism's inception).
Quote3. As far as spiritual gifts go, I frequently operate in words of Knowledge, words of wisdom, and prophetic utterances. I have seen my prophetic words be right on target many times.
How many times have you been wrong?
QuoteJust like anything, spiritual gifts can be misused, but that does not mean they are obsolete. God gives His power to faithful men, not NUTJOBS.
Sure. So God gives those gifts to those that are in full knowledge of their being out of order and disobedient to scripture. Why don't you try reading just this chapter from one of Ellis' books, but while leaving your preconceived notions and false accusations against him behind, until after you finish just this one chapter.
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/who_says_legalistic.htm
Quote4. My position on the end-times is quite different from most hyper-preterists. Most hyper-preterists don't believe in spiritual gifts, while I do; ........
Which is completely unrelated to end-time position.
Quote......... most believe that the Millennium began in 30 AD and ended in 70 AD; while I claim it began in 70 AD and will end at some time in the future.
Illustrating the problem with having strayed so far off the reservation. They believe it started at Pentecost
because it did:
Mat 12:28 But
if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.Indeed you laid a trap for yourself and then fell right into it. A Catch 22. If you fake date the book of Revelation and place it prior to 70 AD like your fellow preterists, then your magic 70 AD date fails epically, because John prefaced Revelation by proclaiming he was in the kingdom of Jesus Christ.
Rev 1:9
I John, who also am
your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in
the kingdom and patience
of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Yet if you don't fake date the book of Revelation, but instead place it after 70 AD, then your entire inverted pyramid of pile-on presumption goes right out the window. In other words you shot yourself in the foot - fatally.
QuoteIf you read my book, you will see that the number 1000 never refers to a literal number (Read Chapter 27 of my book).
You seem to keep forgetting that I am also amillennial. That is the term used to refer to those of us that believe that we are in the kingdom today, and that Christ rules and reigns in His/our kingdom today.
Quote5. Do you even have a copy of my book?
Again, like an exchange with a Muslim. I already told you that my relatives gave me a copy of it, and even in the moment when she handed it to me I looked at the title and was inspired to ask if the author places the resurrection of the dead and Second Coming of Christ in the first century or in the future. She couldn't even put voice to a reply to the question, but could only say "just read the book". I think it was the Spirit that convicted her, as well as embarrassment from feeling foolish, that caught the words in her craw.
They were leaving town shortly so I didn't have time to read the whole thing through, while formulating my written and detailed warning to them, but having had chats with so many preterists over the last half dozen years I was familiar with the presumptions, and thus knew where to thumb through to, to find the most egregious parts of your heresy. I did however, read a considerable amount of it. They may well be greatly offended by your use of Hadrian's rebirth of the term "Palestine", which serves to obscure the nature of the conflict that is going on, as well as your suggestion of Jews being "occupiers" of Hadrian's "Palestine".
http://www.levitt.com/newsletters/1997-12.html#SPECIAL
That conflict being the same as is murdering Christians and burning churches in Nigeria, while having already killed or displaced 2 million innocents in the Sudan alone, by the hand of Muhammadans. The same old 1400 year running Dar al-Salaam conquest of the Dar al-Harb.
Quote6. I don't see Jews as monolithic. I see Christians as the new Jews. Modern Jews as just Talmudists and have nothing to do with biblical Judaism. Modern Jews have as much relation to biblical Judaism as Mormons have a relationship to New Testament Christianity.
Simply repeating your exercise in blind bigotry. While Orthodox are generally Talmud Jews others are not. David Duke goes around proclaiming what Jews believe and thumping the Talmud, as does Ted Pike, and I already showed you the story of what happened to his wife:
http://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/tedpikewifediedmartyr.html
Quote7. Your pro-Zionist position is trivally refuted in my new book. "Israel -Still Chosen? Think Again!"
Quite the ego. Without reading it I am assured it isn't refuted, but that you have only deceived yourself into believing it has been. The restoration of Jews to their land was anticipated by scripture literate great men of God, through prophecy, centuries before that restoration ever began to take place.
Thomas Brightman (1562-1607): "The restoring of the Jewes and their callinge to the faith of Christ after the utter overthrow of their three enemies is set forth in livelie colours." "Shall they return to Jerusalem again?" "There is nothing more certain: the prophets do everywhere confirm it and beat upon it."
Now that long anticipated restoration is a matter of fact reality, yet preterists continue to stumble around blind to that historical reality as if it never happened, because of Roman Catholic Jesuit Alcazar's approach to prophecy. If you were writing before the early 19th century before that restoration began, you might have had an excuse, but to be blind to that reality today only attests to the power of self-deception.
I support the Israelis, as opposed to aiding and abetting in the Islamic conquest of them as you do. I am in the company of hundreds of millions of evangelical Christians around the world in this regard, as well as the majority of Israeli Jews and non-Muslim Arabs.
While your anti-Zionism puts you in the company of Arnold Murray and his Serpent Seed cult, David Duke and the KKK, Jeremiah Wright, and Ted Pike, who are joined by Muslims, Louis Farrakan and the Nation of Islam, and secular groups like communist Soviets, the United Nations, George Soros and his Center for American Progress, white supremacists, Nazis, skinheads, and anti-Semites of all stripes,
yet that doesn't even seem to concern you. Talk about scripture illiterate and refusing to face reality.Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Regarding whether some faithful Torah Jews may remain sovereignly blinded to the Gospel to this day, and thus may not be accountable for it, they remained sovereignly blinded to it decades after the cross when the book of Romans was penned, and until the fulness of the Gentiles, or full number of the nations, comes in. Thus I don't pretend or proclaim to know all the answers to the mystery of Jews in the Christian era. The reality is that they have been restored to their land and as one prophecy suggests, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God's holy name.
QuoteRegards,
Gerald Haug
QuoteRonald,
1. Thanks for admitting that you don't "know all the answers to the mystery of Jews in the Christian era" . Therefore you admit that you could be wrong.
Of course. Many of my web pages are prefaced: "Like the rest of this site, the purpose of this page is to provide seed for study, and is not intended to convey any pretense of authority....."
Which goes doubly for what scripture describes as a "mystery" as in Romans 11.
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/spirit_of_slumber.htm
I don't want the reader to get the impression, that I am foolish enough to believe I have a franchise of the truth of God's word, as in the ego driven impression that you offer of yourself.
Quote2. During the Reformation all the amillennialists were firmly convinced that the Catholic Church was the antichrist.
There you go again with "all". While it is understandable that many would have wanted to pencil the Papacy in as "The" "Antichrist", with the smoke of the burning reformers still in the air, many recognized that the "time of the end" was yet in their distant future.
In Matthew Henry's commentary: "VI. That this prophecy of those times, though sealed up now, would be of great use to those that should live then, v. 4. Daniel must now shut up the words and seal the book.....
He must seal the book because it would not be understood, and therefore would not be regarded, till the things contained in it were accomplished.....
Then this hidden treasure shall be opened, and many shall search into it, and dig for the knowledge of it, as for silver.
Those things of God which are now dark and obscure will hereafter be made clear, and easy to be understood. Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that explication they are reserved."
Sir Isaac Newton: "This Prophecy is called the Revelation, with respect to the scripture of truth, which Daniel was commanded to shut up and seal, till the time of the end. Daniel sealed it until the time of the end; {Daniel 12:4, 9} and until that time comes, the Lamb is opening the seals:....
All which is as much as to say, that these Prophecies of Daniel and John should not be understood till the time of the end: .... But in the very end, the Prophecy should be so far interpreted as to convince many." (Part II. Observations Upon the Apocalypse of St. John. Chap 1)
However your ignorance is consistent with the absurd confusion you demonstrate in your chapter "Major Viewpoints of Eschatology". Why didn't you at least Google the subject before writing your book, rather than mixing and matching and casting confusion on views of eschatology and on millennialism?
With a search like "christian eschatology" you would have learned from the Wikipedia page that there are only four approaches to Christian eschatology. Historicism, preterism, futurism and idealism. Perhaps your failure to do so is why you seemed to not even realize you are a preterist.
Then regarding views on millennialism there are Premillennialism, Amillennialism and Postmillennialism.
Historicists may be premillennial as you point out, or they may also be amillennial as those great men of God of the Reformation. Preterists may be post-millennial or amillennial such as yourself - believing that Christ rules and reigns in His kingdom today.
The confusion you create in your chapter is typical of those who have never spent a moment approaching New Testament prophecy through the tradition of historicism. This is the reason I included a brief note on "red herrings" in my website which answers to such ignorance and the confusion it results in.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/#red_herrings
QuoteNow you come along and claim it is Islam.
It is a simple matter of historical fact that the succession of kingdoms in John's "whole world" were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, the Roman Empire, and the First Islamic jihad. Historical fact, period.
After being defeated in Tours France during it's near conquest of the whole world, Islam was then on the wane for centuries, which was followed by the Islamic beast being healed through the British Mandate as well as western wealth transfer and arms transfer that financed the Islamic Second Jihad in the image of the Islamic First Jihad. Only someone with an abject ignorance to history could be blind to the succession of kingdoms of John's "whole world".
QuoteAmillennialism was heavily promoted by Augustine who had a totally bankrupt understanding of Scripture. The truth is that Bible scholarship, especially the study of the eschatology has been misunderstood since the first century. This should not be so hard to fathom. The doctrine of salvation was quickly lost by the early church and was rediscovered during the Reformation, so it should be of no surprise that eschatology has not been correctly understood until recently.
But as you can see Matthew Henry and Isaac Newton themselves realized it would remain a mystery until into their futures. But I can assure you they didn't have in mind throwing out their UNIFORM approach to ALL bible prophecy in the TRADITION of historicism - through which ALL Jews and Christians understand Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled, and up until the Roman Jesuit heresies of futurism and preterism began to come into vogue in the 19th century, the church understood New Testament prophecy was being fulfilled.
QuoteThe leader of our district has called me the Martin Luther of eschatology. As a former diehard premillennialist, he has converted to the ortho-millennial position.
I would agree you are certainly a Martin Luther when it comes to antisemitism. However when it comes to your friend he is certainly not the only futurist that is ignorant to the fact that preterism is not the only alternative to futurism. This is one of the reasons I launched ChristianEschatology.com
http://www.christianeschatology.com/
Nor do I suspect that you will offer him a third and traditional view of prophecy through historic amillennialism, which you also failed to offer in your book. Why don't you man-up and direct him to a free copy of The False Prophet and ask him to review it and compare it with what you are teaching, rather than keeping him in the dark? Wouldn't that be the Berean thing to do, rather than jamming only your counter-reformation heresy down his throat?
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_false_prophet.htm
Quote3. I, along with numerous scholars, claim that church historian and polemicist Eusebius (253-339 AD) was a preterist.
Which shouldn't be surprising since nearly 2,000 years of Christian era history had not yet come to pass in his day. And Irenaeus was a futurist. Is Irenaeus who you credit with futurism in the modern church? My guess is no. He is no more responsible for futurism being in the modern church than Eusebius is for preterism. It is the Roman Jesuits Francisco Ribera that inspired the Irvingites and then Darby to pen his scheme, and the Roman Jesuit Luis Alcazar that is credited with preterism in the church since his was the preterism that the Roman Church used in arguments against the Reformers. The Reformers didn't buy either one.
QuoteTherefore Catholic Jesuits are not the first to mention preterism.
Nor did I claim they were. For perhaps the third time, what I said was they are generally credited with the presence of preterism and futurism in the modern church. I will post our chat in the forum so that all I have to do is give you a link, rather than having to laboriously repeat myself over and over ad nauseum.
Quote4. Many of your arguments appeal to authority. You claim that such and such a person believed in amillennialism -- well no Evangelical cares. We only care what the Bible says.
A preposterously laughable suggestion since most evangelicals are futurists and many of the rest partial-preterists. Both pop-heresies
necessarily precluding even considering nearly 1,900 years of Christian era history, as fulfillment of bible prophecy. Both heresies
necessarily precluding adherents from even considering that Muhammad could be THE false prophet, and his Islamic kingdom beast the final foe of God's people.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/index.htm#limitations_futurism_preterism
QuoteEvery educated Evangelical knows that famous men of the past were wrong as frequently as they were correct. Augustine being a prime example. That man was notorious in having a duplicity of opinions on important doctrinal positions. This is why he can appear as both Catholic and Protestant at the same time.
I agree there was enough written by the ECFs to support most any heresy, yet you seem to be incapable of suspecting the same of Eusebius.
Quote5. I am curious is it alright for a woman to wear makeup and jewelry if she is also wearing a head covering?
Why not answer to the point of head covering and your wife's disobedience, and your denigration of the women who obey the scriptures, rather than avoiding the subject with a tangent? Did you read the chapter?
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/who_says_legalistic.htm
Offhand I don't know the answer to your question, and if the scriptures are silent on makeup and jewelry, I suppose it would be a matter of whether the individual is convicted by wearing them or not. A woman would first have to begin with obedience of wearing a head covering, before she could presume to be led to the answer, to your next question.
QuoteRegards,
Gerald Haug
Quote1. The first time I heard of preterism was from a Russian Orthodox Monk in Northern California. The Russian Orthodox do not care much for the Latin Fathers and since Eusebius was a bishop of Caesarea, he effectively is more emphasized in Eastern Orthodox circles. I gave you a longer excerpt from my book showing that many of the church fathers quoted from pseudepigraphical works to justify their historical premillennial positions.
I can assure you that I am more familiar with the church fathers than you are. I have studied them at great length in both the US and Russia. Why Russia, because many of the primary documents are owned by the Russians. The Roman Catholic church has mere translations of the primary documents, but that is a separate discussion. So you are not going to blow me over with your alleged study of the church fathers.
What "alleged study"? I put our conversation in the forum to make it easy to reference.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3601.0
I simply pointed out that just as you may wish Eusebius were responsible for the advent of preterism in the modern church, so some futurists wish Irenaeus was responsible for the advent of futurism in the modern church. However the evidence suggests otherwise in both cases.
QuoteI am quite familiar with all the positions and the official teachings of the Orthodox, Catholics, and Coptics. Thus your Redneck education is in no position to expound on what the Bible says. You fundamentally do not understand the nature of an epistle. An epistle must be read differently than gospels or the book of Revelation.
Perhaps so that we can limit the statutes to the first century, and thus excuse away such as our wives not wearing head coverings, and ordination of women.
QuoteI have shown several of my friends the writings of Ellis Skofield. As I said before they think he is NUTS.
Perhaps your friends are no more familiar with the scriptures that you increasingly seem to be.
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Muslims also seem to believe that simply because they are willing to proclaim and repeat something will make it magically come true.
Quoteoften I also told them about Skofield dates Christ's crucifixion at 40 years of age. The logic is preposterous. You respond that the Catholic church has also held this position. Thus your theology is basically a cherry picking whom you want to believe and when.
Again, why I posted our chat in the forum.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3601.msg15200#msg15200
What I responded is "You are apparently unaware but even the Roman Catholic Church recently admitted to earlier dating of Jesus' birth."
and:
"Try Googling the subject like - earlier dating jesus birth
From the description in the first site on the first page (wikipedia) "Most scholars assume a date of birth between 6 and 4 BC.""
QuoteSince I am a physicist and bible student at heart, so I appeal to a complete re-derivation from first principles or Scripture. So in typical Redneck fashion instead of learning how to think, you follow the cult of personality which is Ellis Skofield.
As has already been pointed out to you, you may wish your wife's disobedience and your church's disobedience were about Ellis Skolfield. Just as you wish the traditional historicist amillennial approach to prophecy of those great men of God of the Reformation, were about Ellis.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm
While as I repeatedly pointed out you choose to stand outside nearly 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine. Yet there you stand, the very definition of a heretic, pointing the finger at others, that ascribe to the traditional historicist approach. Yet that doesn't seem to strike you as peculiar.
Quote2. You want to quickly point out the my wife does not wear a head covering. However, you completely discredit yourself ...........
See how you simply continue to try to find ways to run and hide from the truth? To try to get comfortable in disobedience to Christ? It isn't about crediting or discrediting me. It has nothing to do with me. It is about ordinances and statutes as detailed in scripture. Do you really believe that because I do or don't do something, it will magically change those statutes?
Quote............ by obeying the ordinance that says: "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together..." (Hebrews 10:25). So effectively you have set yourself as your own Pope. Maybe I should call you Pope RJ the first.
I will admit that I have had some difficulty finding an ecclesia beyond my brethren online and elders, but perhaps even you don't believe a "church" building is required for the ecclesia to assemble. Indeed about 20 billion a year is spent on construction and maintenance of "church" buildings in the U.S., that could otherwise be feeding the poor. I recommend Pagan Christianity if you haven't already read it.
Another part of the difficulty I have finding a church in the world is that I don't want to sit and stew in some out of order institution that ignores ordinances, ordains women, where spirits have folks jabbering on in glossolalia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3cLChnG_mE
Quote3. I would love to debate you in a public forum after my book on Israel is published.
Since it takes me time and sometimes investigation to formulate a reply, I'll leave the carnival of such spectacle to others. As I remember, when I was in school the pinnacle of debate was achieved when someone could convince a room full of people that something was true, that everyone in the room should have recognized was patently false.
Though I did notice repeated failure to offer substantive replies to my responses.
Additionally, while you squander your time doing what you can to divide the body of Christ, and profit off of a heresy that stands outside nearly 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine that promises to eat as gangrene at the body of Christ, I am busy doing what I can to preach Christ crucified to the 1/4 of mankind that follow the false prophet Muhammad who must deny the Son of God and reject His shed blood as articles of faith in Muhammad alone.
QuoteI don't think you have a leg to stand on. AG minsters who have read the rough draft of the manuscript say that it blows a complete whole into Zionism and Israel being restored into the land by God in 1948.
If you think you got it right, then why do you suppose it is you fruit the anti-Zionist tree of Arnold Murray and his Serpent Seed cult, David Duke and the KKK, Jeremiah Wright, and Ted Pike, who are joined by Muslims, Louis Farrakan and the Nation of Islam, and secular groups like communist Soviets, the United Nations, George Soros and his Center for American Progress, white supremacists, Nazis, skinheads, and anti-Semites of all stripes?
QuoteThis is from men who were pro-Zionist in their belief before reading my book.
Men that were deceived by John Darby before they were deceived by you doesn't really suggest a ringing endorsement. As I indicated before they wouldn't be the first futurists to be ignorant enough to eschatology that they see preterism as the only alternative to futurism. What they don't realize is they are jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire with Nazis and Muslims. Why not show them how foolish I am by offering them a link to this site on Christian eschatology? Wouldn't the Christian thing to do, the Berean thing to do, be to introduce them to the TRADITIONAL historicist approach to bible prophecy of Matthew Henry and Isaac Newton too, and let them decide? Or do you favor more of a nicolaitan approach to convincing them to jump outside 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine without pointing out the four approaches to eschatology?
http://www.christianeschatology.com/
QuoteHowever those who suckle at the teat of the cult of personality will be unable to read my book in an objective manner.
You characterize those within 2,000 years of Christianity - of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine regarding the Second Coming of Christ - and in the TRADITION of historicist amillennialism - as a cult, while you have chosen to jump outside of the body of Christ.
Quote4. The last kingdom that John refers to is NOT the Islamic kingdom. This is your interpretation, and nothing more. The last kingdom that John refers to is actually the Kingdom of God which was established in 70 AD. If you read my book you would understand that. The Kingdom of God was FULLY established in 70 AD, ......
If I had a nickle.....
"Oh gee the kingdom of God was ushered in at the cross, but it wasn't fully established....uhhh...."
The kingdom of God was fully established through the crucifixion, death and resurrection of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. At the same time that Christ built His/my temple in three days.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm
The same kingdom of God that came upon those at Pentecost, and that I am my brother John's companion in.
Established through that ONE sacrifice for sins forever.
The veil in the temple was even rent in two at Jesus' death. Even before that time Jesus had declared: Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Because their traditions had made the word of God of no effect. Yet there you are jumping outside of 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine.
Quote....... when the general resurrection of the dead occurred. Read my book on the general resurrection it is fully explained and NOT ONE person has been able to refute the logic.
Judging by the way you have carried yourself in our chat perhaps they are just being polite and don't have the stomach for being denigrated and called names by someone who claims to be a Christian. My skin has been thickened somewhat by Muslims, but it doesn't mean watching someone descend into such behavior doesn't make my heart ache.
QuoteRegards,
Gerald Haug
QuoteRonald,
1. You should really like devout Muslims. The devout Muslim women all wear head coverings and the men would never consider ordaining a Muslim woman. I guess in your convoluted system devout Muslims are better at following the ordinances than many Christians.
Don't you ever become embarrassed when you go back and read what you write? If you didn't suffer from such blindness to the history of the Christian era induced by your unique heresy, you might know that the reason the false prophet Muhammad's followers wear head coverings (including the Imams), is the same reason that they prostrate themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day, while praying in "vain repetitions of the heathen" in the names of the Arabian pagan's deity "Allah" and his "messenger" Muhammad. Which is the same reason they travel to the kaaba and march around it as the Arabian moon, sun star and jinn-devil worshipers did before Muhammad, and kiss the black stone idol as Muhammad did. The same reason that they are engaged in the conquest of the world and subjugation of non-Muslims to Muhammad's followers, toward the ultimate goal of subjugating all non-Muslims to denying the Son of God and rejecting His shed blood. That reason being because they follow THE false prophet Muhammad alone, and he either did it himself or commanded his followers to do it.
Christian women obedient to Christ cover their heads, as they did throughout the first 1900 years of the Christian era, because it is a church ordinance and demonstrates to the angels that they are in submission to the Word rather than in open rebellion to it.
Quote2. I really wonder how you.....
Again, church ordinances are not about me or anything I do. You keep trying to make me and now my wife, the excuse for your own disobedience.
Quote.....can even have a strong marriage if your wife does not wear a head covering. I can only imagine that there is a lot of strife in your house, considering that your wife is in open rebellion to your headship. One of the marks of a man of God is if he leads his family well. Everyone who observes my wife sees that she is submitted to her husband.
Perhaps like the wives of Muhammad's followers.
Sura 2:223 your wives are as tilth (farmland) unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will.
Your claim also suggests that you are equally in rebellion and guilty of disobeying church ordinances by your wife not wearing a head covering, since as you say she is "submitted" to you. Your disobedience is about you. And even worse you claim you are a church leader, when your actions demonstrate otherwise:
1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over [God's] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
Quote3. If you read my book, I also show that Jesus was born between 6 and 4 BC.
Where is the archaeological evidence of a Roman census between 6 and 4 BC?
QuoteHowever, I claim like the Bible that Jesus started his ministry at 30 years of age and it lasted 3.5 years just as the gospels record.
You also claim he was cut off after 69 1/2 weeks instead of 69 weeks as stricture states.
QuoteTherefore Jesus was 33.5 years old when he ascended into heaven. Thus Ellis Skofield is delusional if he claims Jesus was 40 years old when he ascended into heaven.
You are apparently in abject ignorance to the broad range of scholarly opinion regarding how old Jesus was when He was crucified, as you are Islam, this opinion particularly stemming from the archaeological evidence of the timing of Roman census. Yet you, a wet-behind-the-ears Christian steeped in an institution that encourages all members to jabber on in glossolalia who couldn't even get the four approaches to eschatology straight in your book, denigrate and hurl epithets at an 86 year old elder that was raised in the scriptures on his mother's knee on the Gospel Ship as missionaries in the Philippines - for taking a UNIFORM approach to ALL Bible prophecy in the TRADITIONS of historicism and amillennialism of the first 1800 years of the church, including those great men of God of the Reformation - for expressing a well supported opinion regarding Jesus' age.
And why? Because it doesn't fit your unique one-off personal spin on Daniel's 70th week that includes a 37 year gap that you ginned up in the middle of the week! And preterists are usually the ones that point the finger at futurists and denigrate them for creating a gap!
John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Peculiar thing to say to a 33 year old isn't it?
QuoteThus Ellis Skofield blatantly contradicts 2000 years of Bible understanding and the Bible itself.
That's a patently false accusation that is a consequence your mind being bent by your personal heresy. Contradicts your unique heresy as Christians have for 2,000 years? Yes.
Yet there you are, standing naked and alone, either having to reject that Jesus ascended and was received by literal clouds, or reject that He will come in the manner in which He left.
And while scripture tells us the Messiah will be cut off after 69 weeks, you claim 69 and 1/2.
QuoteConsequently, if he can't get the timeline of Christ correct, it is doubtful that he is correct about the Muslim as antichrist hypothesis.
Hypothesis? It seems unimaginable that a person whose inflated ego causes him to exude such an air of self-importance, and misplaced perception of authority, could at the same time remain so stunningly ignorant to something so basic as understanding that Muslims are antichrist. But perhaps not surprising with the AoG jabbering on in glossolalia, since if it's not the Holy Spirit that causes those utterances, then what spirit does scripture tell us it is?
You seem as ignorant as most Muslims to the fact that Islam is antichrist. OK, now try to follow this, it isn't rocket science:
Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
Indeed their being antichrist is why they are commanded to fight, and subjugate Christians and other non-Muslims to denying the Son of God along with them:
Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
The most heinous and only unforgivable sin in Islam is committed if a Muslim were to confess that Jesus is the Son of God, or even to pray in Jesus' name.
http://www.petewaldo.com/unforgivable_shirk.htm
OK, now try to understand this verse in comparison to those verses from the Quran:
1 John 2:22..... He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:
Quote4. Your paranoia about Muslims is almost comical.
While your doctrine induced blindness to the 1/4 of mankind that follows one of the most consummate terrorists in history, is what has you standing with anti-Zionists like Arnold Murray and his Serpent Seed cult, David Duke and the KKK, Jeremiah Wright, and Ted Pike, who are joined by Muslims, Louis Farrakan and the Nation of Islam, and secular groups like communist Soviets, the United Nations, George Soros and his Center for American Progress, white supremacists, Nazis, skinheads, and anti-Semites of all stripes. Those are your peeps that fruit your anti-Zionist tree.
Your heresy puts you on the side of those who advance the Islamic conquest of the only country left in John's "whole world" that is not already ruled by followers of the false prophet Muhammad.
There is certainly nothing "comical" about that to me.
QuoteSome Christians think there is a demon under every bush, while you think there is a Muslim conspiracy afloat under every "bush".
Conspiracy? Islamic terrorism and conquest is a matter of fact of the 1400 year history of Islam that results from what the false prophet Muhammad commands of his true followers.
Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "
I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
Pure blasphemy for a Christian to testify to that.
"Summarized Sahih Al-Bukhari" - Maktba Dar-us-Salam's page 580
Chapter 2. The best among the people is that believer who strives his utmost in Allah's Cause with both his life and property.
footnotes:
[1] "
Al-Jihad (the holy fighting) in Allah's Cause (with full force of number and weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior, [His Word being La ilaha ill-Allah (which means: none has the right to be worshipped but Allah] and His Religion (Islam) is propagated. By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and the Muslims fall into an inferior position; there honour is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish.
Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim, and he who tries to escape from this duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfill this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite.[2] Of course, nobody can offer Salat (prayer) and observe Saum (fast) incessantly, and since the Muslim fighter is rewarded as if he was doing such good impossible deeds, no possible deed equals Jihad in reward.
http://www.petewaldo.com/jihad_conquest_terrorism.htm
http://web.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/jihad/#all_muslims
QuoteI would encourage you to wear a tin-foil helmet to avoid the Muslims from brainwashing with their secret Muslim radio transmitters mounted all throughout the United States.
It is more than obvious who has brainwashed himself into abject ignorance through Islamic taqiyyah and dissimulation. Why would they need "secret Muslim radio transmitters" when Saudi Arabia spends about 20 billion a year setting up Islamic centers and mosques in the U.S. alone, particularly near college campuses where they brainwash students with Islamic taiyyah, to foment hatred against Israeli Jews, to join them with the rest of your anti-Zionist peeps. Why don't you wake up and join the informed and Google something like - jihad on campus -
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=Av4DRoKq604xlGQ.XRvGMBSbvZx4?p=jihad+on+campus&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-900
Quote5. As I have stated before, uneducated, unschooled, paranoid Christians are a greater hindrance to the body of Christ than Muslim.
And you would be just as wrong as you were before. Talk about twisted!
While I would agree that heretics like you, and Charles Taze Russell and Joseph Smith that peddle heresies that stand outside of nearly 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine have always posed a threat to the body of Christ, the simple fact of the matter is that the formerly Christian lands of the prophet John's "whole world" are virtually 100% Islamic today.
(http://www.beholdthebeast.com/2d0a3aa0.png)
That is, of course, with the exception of those whose freedom, liberty and right to self-determination are protected by the democracy of the Israeli Jewish State. Where Muslims also enjoy more freedom than they do in any Islam controlled country on earth.
You prefer abject ignorance even as "post-Christian Europe" continues to fall to Islam during this prophesied apostasy "As Islam replaces Christianity as the dominant religion in Europe...."
http://www.christianeschatology.com/falling_away_apostasy.htm
You remain so stunningly ignorant and brainwashed from truth that you even made such a ridiculous taqiyyah parroting and outright asinine statement as: "Islam would implode under its own weight if it were not for hatred against Zionism."
Which of course displays abject ignorance to not only 1400 years of imperialistic Islamic aggression and conquest, but also to the two million innocents that Muslims have killed or displaced in the Sudan alone, while you ignore the thousands of Christians murdered and churches burned in the Islamic conquest of Nigeria.....
http://www.nigeriacalabash.com/content/attack-christians-11-2011
.....and Christians martyred in the far East, as well as ignoring the majority of the 21,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world just since 9-11 which have nothing whatsoever to do with Zionism. You need to stop listening the the spin of the Nazis, skinheads, KKK, Muslims and Louis Farrakhan.
QuoteFact is that if people read and UNDERSTAND the Bible, no human institution or religion can stand against the kingdom of God.
Nor has any institution ever been able to stand against the elect. This is why between 105,000 and 180,000 Christians are martyred around the world every year, mainly by the hand of Muhammadans. "Sunni Muslim terrorists committed “about 70 percent†of the 12,533 terrorist murders in the world last year, according to a report by the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC)."
Yet there you stand alone and naked in your dreams. Tell me, do you believe that Jesus was received by a metaphorical cloud?
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
What about "in like manner" is so difficult for you to comprehend, that Christians have had no trouble understanding for nearly 2,000 years?
On which of the 14 pages you devoted to the subject of the Second Coming did you discuss these two most germane verses? Or were you so dishonest as to exclude them altogether?
QuoteMuslims are much lesser threat to Christianity than the Catholics Church of the Middle Ages.
Sure, as so clearly evidenced by the Middle East being nearly 100% Muslim as we witness the Muslim Brotherhood wiping out the remnant of Christians in Egypt through beheading and hacking to death with knives and machetes.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
QuoteSo I pronounce you Pope RJ I the head of the tin-foil brigade.
While you stand as a champion of the Muslims in their conquest of Israel.
Quote6. I find it also very amusing that you are quick to hurl insults at others but you are not able to handle it when you are confronted in return.
Why would Ellis or I be bothered by an anti-Zionist calling us names whether Nazi, KKK, Muslim, skinhead, or you since you choose to stand in the opposite camp even from your own church. Your name calling is a matter between you and Jesus Christ. Where did I call you a NUTJOB? I criticize what you say, and point out your abject ignorance in certain areas that is exposed in by you say, and other things about your unique heresy, but where did I engage in name calling? You even speculate about my wife and I when I simply pointed out your wife's disobedience to scripture and the likely presence of unclean spirits in a church that peddles a heresy that all Christians should be speaking in tongues.
You can check the record here.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3601.0
I call something foolish when it obviously is. We've all done foolish things, but that doesn't mean we are all fools. I simply showed you the scriptures that report the consequence of name-calling in efforts to warn you, just as I warn about your choosing to stand outside of nearly 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christin CORE doctrine. The subject of the Second Coming of Christ is not some ancillary issue.
QuoteLook if you want to insult me, than I will give you a taste of your own medicine. Most likely when you were a non-Christian you fried some of your brain doing drugs or were in some type of accident that insured your brain, because this is the most charitable way to explain you obsession with Muslims.
Regards,
Gerald Haug
You are going to need to get a little thicker skinned regarding constructive criticism, or loose your mind, if you are going to continue to go around trying to peddle a heresy that is unique to yourself, and contrary to nearly 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine.
In the meantime I would encourage you to learn a little more about Islam so you don't have to keep demonstrating your abject ignorance to it.
Qur'an 33:26 "Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things."
http://www.petewaldo.com/jihad_conquest_terrorism.htm
That's why you stand with the brainwashed anti-Zionists in this college lecture room, and the Islamic conquest of Israel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfLs_ptJzQA
"I would encourage you to wear a tin-foil helmet to avoid the Muslims from brainwashing with their secret Muslim radio transmitters mounted all throughout the United States."
Why would they need "secret Muslim radio transmitters" when Saudi Arabia spends 20 billion a year setting up Islamic centers and mosques for brainwashing in the U.S. and particularly when they also have YOU? If you really want to peddle some of your new books that suggest 100% of Jews are not Jews, besides receiving a warm reception from Arnold Murray's Serpent Seed cult, I'll bet you would receive a really warm reception from these students as U.C. Berkley:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfLs_ptJzQA
Let's look at scripture for a moment.
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
So the Word of God is all that is called God.
Now for the same reason you disagree with your church ordaining women, you know that women should be wearing head coverings, because those statutes are found in the same place. Nor have you disagreed that women are instructed to wear head coverings, and that they in fact did historically.
You label yourself a "reverend" and thus have set yourself up in a position of authority over the body of Christ, the "temple of God". This while you have set yourself up as the example for your flock, even you yourself must realize that you stand in open rebellion - in lawlessness - opposing the Word, and thus you have exulted yourself above it, while usurping the headship of Jesus Christ and seating yourself in His place with your own statutes. Now let's turn to scripture again:
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin ("man of lawlessness") be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Rather than being over and done with in the first century, could that instead comprise a dire warning, if only in regard to your flagrant lawlessness about head coverings?
Even worse you are bringing and teaching your own Gospel that Jesus will not return in like manner to that in which He left. Rebelling against the Word and contrary to the "blessed hope" that the entirety of the body of Christ has harbored for nearly 2,000 years.
By flagrantly disregarding statutes you are betraying Jesus Christ, and since Judas was "the son of perdition", what drove Judas, if not a spirit of betrayal?
You preach your gospel while hundreds of millions of Christians believe we are in the "time of the end". I of course do because it seems that Daniel pinned it right to the years of 1948 and 1967 in two parallel math problems that span 2500 years.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm
With 1967 marking the fulfillment of the "times of the gentiles" in Jerusalem, as well as "when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end", of which the only holy people in Daniel's day were Jews.
I believe it because John's "whole world" has already been conquered by the false prophet Muhammad's kingdom beast and thus almost a unanimity of the people outside of Israel are antichrists that have already been marked by the name of the beast - Islam.
You have been struck blind by your heresy because you believe the "falling away" was over and done with in the first century, whereas someone with eyes to see can readily recognize that the church has been sinking into apostasy for a century or so, and particularly in the last half of the last century as the church exchanged the preaching of repentance, for the convenience of the lip service of the "sinners prayer". At about that same time women cast aside head coverings, while institutions of men began to ordain women, and now homosexuals. Where some of these same usually anti-Zionist liberal institutions seem more interested in demonizing Israelis, and concerned about the "carbon footprint" of their church and earth worship, than they do preaching Christ crucified.
You reject that the "falling away" could be going on now, even as tens of thousands of churches have closed and continue to close in Europe, with many being converted into mosques, "As Islam replaces Christianity as the dominant religion in Europe.....".
http://www.christianeschatology.com/falling_away_apostasy.htm#apostasy_in_europe
You have been struck blind to that "man of lawlessness" manifest perhaps not only in yourself, but even as the spirit of Kandalini - the spirit of antichrist - poses as the Holy Spirit within the Assemblies of God, given free reign by incorrect - or non-existent testing as in the Pentecostal church I visited - which wasn't even as bad as the so-called "movements" that have sprung from AoG:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBpw2oQrvMM
You march around proclaiming "This is the way it is" and "That is the way it is" and "I have never been refuted" (while ignoring refutation), as if your unique interpretation of the figurative language of dreams and visions in prophecy were a matter of fact, as if you have actually convinced yourself that you possess authority that is unique within the 2,000 year history of the body of Christ.
While proclaiming hundreds of millions of Christians to be wrong about our believing we are in the "time of the end", as if Christians for so many hundreds of years were wrong about anticipating the restoration of Jews to Israel through prophecy, even though that long anticipated restoration has become a very real and physical matter of historical fact.
Have you stopped for even a moment, to entertain the notion that rather than those hundreds of millions of Christians and that historical matter of fact being wrong, that it could you alone that could be wrong? That the "man of lawlessness" may indeed have not been over and done with in the first century?
QuoteRonald,
I am at a Creation Science Conference in Tennessee, so I have no time to respond. The problem with church history is that it is not nearly as straightforward as you want to paint. Not every church father believed in amillennialism. Furthermore there have been numerous candidates for the beast in Revelation. Some said Nero, others even claimed a reincarnated Nero.
I am also writing a church history book that will show how the church went off the rails by the time of Polycarp. Furthermore many documents have been so heavily forged or interpolated that it is not even clear what many of the fathers believed.
QuoteRonald,
Another problem that I have with Ellis Skolfield is his interpretation on Ezekiel 4. The 390 and 40 years are for past sins committed by Israel and Judah. It was 390 years since the temple was built and 40 years since the reforms of Josiah (King of Judah). Ellis has deceived you, but you don't have the spiritual, intellectual or biblical horsepower to see this.
Furthermore, Ellis is footloose and fancy free with turning days into years.
"Furthermore, Ellis is footloose and fancy free with turning days into years."You keep trying to pretend this is about Ellis, as if his Dan-Rev eschatological study done within the TRADITION of historic amillennialism, perhaps stands outside of 2,000 years of UNIVERSAL Christian CORE doctrine, as you have chosen to be with your unique heresy.
However Ellis Skolfield is in plenty of good company, that would have little doubt drawn the same conclusions as he, were they in the world today.
Quoting from "The False Prophet": "In 1569, the great Anabaptist theologian, Thieleman van Braght, wrote the following in Martyrs Mirror, pages 21-24: 'a thousand two hundred and threescore days, which reckoned according to prophetic language means as many years… let it be reckoned as it may, say we, as a very long period of time.'
Two hundred years later, Matthew Henry, in his 'Commentary of the Whole Bible', came to the same conclusion (Vol VI, page 1157 column 1, para. 2): "….if the beginning of that interval could be ascertained, this number of prophetic days, taking a day for a year, would give us a prospect of when the end might be."
Isaac Newton - "She is nourished by the merchants of the earth, three times or years and an half, or 42 months, or 1260 days: and in these Prophecies days are put for years." - Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St.a John - Chapter 3
Even in the 19th century the Jamison, Faucett & Brown commentary mentions this language as though it were common knowledge - "..... in the wilderness 'a thousand two hundred and threescore days.' In the wider sense, we may either adopt the year-day theory of 1260 years..."
Others who recognized this "language of prophecy":
Augustine (AD 430)
Nahawendi (Jewish) (AD 8-9th century)
Jehoram (AD 10th century)
Abraham bar Hiyya (Jewish) (AD 1136)
Arnold of Villanova AD (1292)
Tichonius (AD 380)
Joachim of Floris (AD 1202)
John Wycliffe (AD c.1379)
Nicholas of Cusa (AD c.1452)
Martin Luther (AD 1522)
Phillip Melanchthon (AD 1543)
Johan Funck (AD 1558)
James I of England (AD 1600)
You've reduced yourself to littering my inbox with more of your empty and false accusations.
And we both know who the accuser of the brethren is.
QuoteThus I guess the 6 days of creation in Genesis must be years. The Bible is always clear when a day should be converted into years and when a day is a day. So you should read the Bible in CONTEXT and not the drivel written by Skolfield. Skolfield needs to repent for an overactive imagination and adding to the word of God. Also Revelation 1 to 3 are actual historical churches that existed in the first century. READ my BOOK to learn some history instead of the fiction and lies promoted by Ellis.
The fruit of my ministry is that my disciples go to church and tithe.
The typical Pentecostal triple collection I presume? How much do you stuff in your pocket?
QuoteThe fruit of Ellis Skolfield's ministry is that his disciples don't go to church.
Just look at what you have done to your mind. How can you presume to know the habits of the tens of thousands of people, from all around the world, that have read and appreciated Ellis Skolfield's eschatological study?
Do they sit and stew in an institution that places women in positions of authority over men? Do they jabber on in the glossolalia of unclean spirits? Do they allow a lawless leader, who ignores statutes and misunderstands who the head of the church is, to impose himself in a position of authority over them?
I'm going to guess that most of them have the good sense not to do those things.
I decided it may be appropriate to call you out to the Assemblies of God.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3716.0
QuoteBottomline:,Ellis needs to repent for teaching false doctrine, while you need to repent for promoting his false doctrine.
Regards,
Gerald
QuoteRonald,
BTW, Catholics claim a 2000 year tradition of the Papacy, maybe that makes it correct as well.
But what I pointed out to you is that Ellis Skolfield is supported by those great men of God of the Reformation.
QuoteI guess you are much more Catholic than you realize.
It is your punitive supersession that so aligns you with your Roman church counterparts and Roman church Jesuit Alcazar's counter-reformation doctrine of preterism.
Pope Clement VIII: “The Bible itself says that the Jews are an accursed people.â€
Pope Benedict XIV: “It is fitting for Jews to serve Christians, but not for Christians to serve Jews. On the contrary, the Jews, as slaves rejected by that Saviour Whose death they wickedly contrived, should recognize themselves in fact and in creed the slaves of those whom the death of Christ has set free, even as it has rendered them bondmen.†(Quoting Pope Innocent III, “Etsi Judaeosâ€)
http://www.christianeschatology.com/supersessionism_replacement_theology.htm#roman_catholic_supersessionism
Almost parroting the ECF anti-semite bigot Hippolytus. Turning to the ECFs requires discernment, particularly since they could not have anticipated, what has become nearly 1900 years of Christian era history.
QuoteAn appeal to tradition in the church is the same type of logic that all false teachers use, such as Catholics, Pharisees, and other heretics.
Job 8:8 For enquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers: 9 (For we [are but of] yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth [are] a shadow:)
All Jews and Christians are historicist when it comes to Old Testament prophecy, as was the church for the first 1800 years, before the heresies of preterism and futurism came into vogue. So a person must first explain why Christians should not expect all bible prophecy would be fulfilled in a uniform fashion - in the tradition of historicism.
QuoteI explained in a previous post that the early church fathers used non-biblical sources to develop their ideas of premillennialism, Furthermore quoting Issac Newton is quite silly. Isaac Newton was a great scientist but he rejected the Trinity.
I quoted several besides Newton to demonstrate that the day-year language you were pretending was unique to Skolfield, was in fact so well known, that they invoked it as though the Christian community took it for granted.
QuoteFurthermore most church fathers would have been opposed to Zionism. Church history has historically been anti-Zionist for most of the first 1800 years.
What a bizarre thing to say since Jews did not even begin to be restored to their land until the beginning of the 19th century, and the term Zionism wasn't even coined until the late 19th century. However great men of God fully anticipated that restoration through Bible prophecy, centuries before it began.
http://www.modernzionism.com/zionism_in_christianity.htm
Perhaps what you meant was there was no shortage of punitive supersessionsts like those popes of the Roman Church and yourself, that abused scripture to advance their hated Jews.
Regarding anti-Zionism as I have shown repeatedly we can simply judge by the fruit of that tree which includes Arnold Murray and his Serpent Seed cult, David Duke and the KKK, Jeremiah Wright, and Ted Pike, who are joined by Muslims, Louis Farrakan and the Nation of Islam, and secular groups like communist Soviets, the United Nations, George Soros and his Center for American Progress, white supremacists, Nazis, skinheads, and anti-Semites of all stripes
QuoteSo let us say this will be my last email. You will probably send a reply since you probably do not have the self-control to let things go.
What an even more bizarre thing to say. If you don't want a reply why not try not sending an email?! What you really meant is that you wished I wouldn't reply because you don't want to be exposed to more correction. This would be consistent with your claims in chat forums on the internet that you haven't been refuted, when what you really mean (if our chat is any indication), is that you ignore all of the points that are brought up that refute your heresy.
When in regard to the tens or perhaps even hundreds of thousands around the world who have seen the truth in Ellis Skolfield's eschatological study over the last 30+ years, you made the bizarre accusation against of:
"The fruit of Ellis Skolfield's ministry is that his disciples don't go to church."
I replied: "Just look at what you have done to your mind."
But since all members of your church speak in tongues it might have been a better observation to have said "Just look at what you (or what unclean spirits may) have done to your mind."
We both know who the accuser of our brethren is.
QuoteRegards,
Gerald
Quote"Furthermore quoting Issac Newton is quite silly. Isaac Newton was a great scientist but he rejected the Trinity."
If not simply more evidence of a lying spirit within, which did Newton reject? The Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit?
Note to forum members. Please don't reply on this thread, but on the thread dedicated to discussion of this topic, at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3719.0