[edit add]split from: The Untold Story-Islam Documentary by Tom Holland
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4713.0 [end edit]
As you begin to set about seeking out evidence of a pre-4th century Mecca, please let me ask an unrelated question regarding the Quran. Muhammad said:
Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.
Which is what I do, as a person of the Gospel. By Muhammad's day the Gospel had been translated into every popular language, copied tens of thousands of times, and had been read all over the "known world" for centuries.
How do you reconcile that, when the whole subject of the Gospel is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Lamb of God, who saves all from sin who have faith in His shed blood?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 05:18:43 PM
As you begin to set about seeking out evidence of a pre-4th century Mecca, please let me ask an unrelated question regarding the Quran. Muhammad said:
Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.
Which is what I do, as a person of the Gospel. By Muhammad's day the Gospel had been translated into every popular language, copied tens of thousands of times, and had been read all over the "known world" for centuries.
How do you reconcile that, when the whole subject of the Gospel is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Lamb of God, who saves all from sin who have faith in His shed blood?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/
Response: The Qur'an informs us that there were previous revelations, such as the Injil given to Jesus (ra) and the Taurat given to Moses (ra). Muslims do not believe that the Gospel as we have it today is not in it's original form. Hence, the Bible is not the Full word of God. So in its original form, there was no mention of a crucifiction, trinity, Jesus as God, or the Son of God. Instead, we accept what the Bible says which is Jesus was just a Prophet (Acts:2:22).
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 05:34:08 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 05:18:43 PM
As you begin to set about seeking out evidence of a pre-4th century Mecca, please let me ask an unrelated question regarding the Quran. Muhammad said:
Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.
Which is what I do, as a person of the Gospel. By Muhammad's day the Gospel had been translated into every popular language, copied tens of thousands of times, and had been read all over the "known world" for centuries.
How do you reconcile that, when the whole subject of the Gospel is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Lamb of God, who saves all from sin who have faith in His shed blood?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/
Response: The Qur'an informs us that there were previous revelations, such as the Injil given to Jesus (ra) and the Taurat given to Moses (ra). Muslims do not believe that the Gospel as we have it today is not in it's original form. Hence, the Bible is not the Full word of God. So in its original form, there was no mention of a crucifiction, trinity, Jesus as God, or the Son of God. Instead, we accept what the Bible says which is Jesus was just a Prophet (Acts:2:22).
Sorry my friend by you missed the tense. Muhammad is speaking in the present tense about the Gospel and its people that existed at the time of his recitation. And the Gospel had been preached and followed throughout the whole known world for centuries before Muhammad.
Try again.
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 06:10:07 PM
Sorry my friend by you missed the tense. Muhammad is speaking in the present tense about the Gospel and its people that existed at the time of his recitation. And the Gospel had been preached and followed throughout the whole known world for centuries before Muhammad.
Try again.
Response: Exactly. He is speaking in the present tense, which means he is referring to the Injil (Gospel) that was present with him. Not what you have now.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 06:14:07 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 06:10:07 PM
Sorry my friend by you missed the tense. Muhammad is speaking in the present tense about the Gospel and its people that existed at the time of his recitation. And the Gospel had been preached and followed throughout the whole known world for centuries before Muhammad.
Try again.
Response: Exactly. He is speaking in the present tense, which means he is referring to the Injil (Gospel) that was present with him. Not what you have now.
Please reread what I wrote and actually try to comprehend what you are suggesting.
In order for the Gospel of Muhammad's day, to be different than the Gospel of today, would have required going back and changing its whole subject to becoming the exact opposite of what it had been, in the tens of thousands of copies, that had been translated into every popular language and were scattered throughout the whole "known world" prior to Muhammad's day.
(I'm going to try to break this out into a separate thread)
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 06:21:00 PM
Please reread what I wrote and actually try to comprehend what you are suggesting.
In order for the Gospel of Muhammad's day, to be different than the Gospel of today, would have required going back and changing its whole subject to becoming the exact opposite of what it had been, in the tens of thousands of copies, that had been translated into every popular language and were scattered throughout the whole "known world" prior to Muhammad's day.
(I'm going to try to break this out into a separate thread)
Response: Not at all. Corruption does not require changing everything. Your own Bible Historians and Christian scholars acknowledge that the Bible has been tampered. Mark 16: 9-20 has been confirmed to be falsely added.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 06:30:39 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 06:21:00 PM
Please reread what I wrote and actually try to comprehend what you are suggesting.
In order for the Gospel of Muhammad's day, to be different than the Gospel of today, would have required going back and changing its whole subject to becoming the exact opposite of what it had been, in the tens of thousands of copies, that had been translated into every popular language and were scattered throughout the whole "known world" prior to Muhammad's day.
(I'm going to try to break this out into a separate thread)
Response: Not at all. Corruption does not require changing everything. Your own Bible Historians and Christian scholars acknowledge that the Bible has been tampered. Mark 16: 9-20 has been confirmed to be falsely added.
Perhaps I assumed too much. Do you know what the whole subject of the Gospel that we have today is? What is the whole reason the Messiah was made manifest to the world, and His whole purpose as revealed in the Gospel we have today?
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 06:46:10 PM
Perhaps I assumed too much. Do you know what the whole subject of the Gospel that we have today is? What is the whole reason the Messiah was made manifest to the world, and His whole purpose as revealed in the Gospel we have today?
Response: In Islam, we believe Jesus to be only a man and a Prophet. (Acts 2:22). So he was not God in Flesh, did not die on the cross and crucified, and was not part of a Trinity. These are later interpolations by man in the Gospel. This is the Islamic belief. They were not there when it was originally revealed to Jesus (ra).
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 06:49:16 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 06:46:10 PM
Perhaps I assumed too much. Do you know what the whole subject of the Gospel that we have today is? What is the whole reason the Messiah was made manifest to the world, and His whole purpose as revealed in the Gospel we have today?
Response: In Islam, we believe Jesus to be only a man and a Prophet. (Acts 2:22). So he was not God in Flesh, did not die on the cross and crucified, and was not part of a Trinity. These are later interpolations by man in the Gospel. This is the Islamic belief. They were not there when it was originally revealed to Jesus (ra).
I didn't ask about what Muhammad taught you to DISbelieve about the Gospel. I asked you what the whole subject of the Gospel is today. What is the reason the Passover Lamb of God was crucified?
If you need help try this page:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 06:30:39 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 06:21:00 PM
Please reread what I wrote and actually try to comprehend what you are suggesting.
In order for the Gospel of Muhammad's day, to be different than the Gospel of today, would have required going back and changing its whole subject to becoming the exact opposite of what it had been, in the tens of thousands of copies, that had been translated into every popular language and were scattered throughout the whole "known world" prior to Muhammad's day.
(I'm going to try to break this out into a separate thread)
Response: Not at all. Corruption does not require changing everything. Your own Bible Historians and Christian scholars acknowledge that the Bible has been tampered. Mark 16: 9-20 has been confirmed to be falsely added.
My friend, none of the 4 oldest Qurans do other than contradict each other, as well as the Quran you have in your possession. Scroll to the 48 minute mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd9lIuUjPs0
So let's get honest. Even if some claims about a verse or two being compromised were true, it wouldn't change the WHOLE SUBJECT of the gospel. Here are their accounts:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1175.0
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 07:32:12 PM
My friend, none of the 4 oldest Qurans do other than contradict each other, as well as the Quran you have in your possession. Scroll to the 48 minute mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd9lIuUjPs0
So let's get honest. Even if some claims about a verse or two being compromised were true, it wouldn't change the WHOLE SUBJECT of the gospel. Here are their accounts:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1175.0
Response: There are no contradictions in the Qur'an, supported by your failure to quote and demonstrate one. yet we find many in your Bible.
Was it 700, or 7,000 horses? 1 Chronicles 18:3-4 and 2 Samuel 8:3-4
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 07:54:06 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 07:32:12 PM
My friend, none of the 4 oldest Qurans do other than contradict each other, as well as the Quran you have in your possession. Scroll to the 48 minute mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd9lIuUjPs0
So let's get honest. Even if some claims about a verse or two being compromised were true, it wouldn't change the WHOLE SUBJECT of the gospel. Here are their accounts:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1175.0
Response: There are no contradictions in the Qur'an,.......
Not only is the Quran filled with contradictions, but even Muhammad knew what a mess he made of it over the short span of just 23 years (as it was frequently pointed out to him), so that Muhammad himself had to institute a doctrine of abrogation in order to nullify the earlier surahs that were contradicted by the later surahs.
2:106 (Asad)
Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar
one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 07:54:06 PM.......supported by your failure to quote and demonstrate one. yet we find many in your Bible.
Was it 700, or 7,000 horses? Chronicles 21:1 and 2 Samuel 10:18
Why do you suppose it is that you can't answer the question you were asked, but feel the need to obfuscate instead?
Do you know what spirit it is in you that prevents you from being able to simply say what the whole subject of the gospel is?
You see my friend, I follow all of the prophets and witnesses as revealed in the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind, whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years.
You are required to DISbelieve that record, because you follow the stand-alone 23-year record of a violent, murderous, 7th-century false prophet.
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 08:18:12 PM
Not only is the Quran filled with contradictions, but even Muhammad what a mess he made of it over the short span of just 23 years (as it was frequently pointed out to him), so that Muhammad himself had to institute a doctrine of abrogation in order to nullify the earlier surahs that were contradicted by the later surahs.
2:106 (Asad) Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 07:54:06 PM.......supported by your failure to quote and demonstrate one. yet we find many in your Bible.
Was it 700, or 7,000 horses? Chronicles 21:1 and 2 Samuel 10:18
Why do you suppose it is that you can't answer the question you were asked, but feel the need to obfuscate instead?
Do you know what spirit it is in you that prevents you from being able to simply say what the whole subject of the gospel is?
Response: As expected, you dodged addressing the obvious contradiction in your Bible, thus it is clear it is tampered and not the true word of God.
And you couldn't quote a contradiction from the Qur'an. So your own failed rebuttals show the Qur'an is true. Unlike your Bible.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 08:25:28 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 08:18:12 PM
Not only is the Quran filled with contradictions, but even Muhammad what a mess he made of it over the short span of just 23 years (as it was frequently pointed out to him), so that Muhammad himself had to institute a doctrine of abrogation in order to nullify the earlier surahs that were contradicted by the later surahs.
2:106 (Asad) Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 07:54:06 PM.......supported by your failure to quote and demonstrate one. yet we find many in your Bible.
Was it 700, or 7,000 horses? Chronicles 21:1 and 2 Samuel 10:18
Why do you suppose it is that you can't answer the question you were asked, but feel the need to obfuscate instead?
Do you know what spirit it is in you that prevents you from being able to simply say what the whole subject of the gospel is?
Response: As expected, you dodged addressing the obvious contradiction in your Bible, thus it is clear it is tampered and not the true word of God.
And you couldn't quote a contradiction from the Qur'an. So your own failed rebuttals show the Qur'an is true. Unlike your Bible.
Why on earth do you think that some verses have to be nullified through Muhammad's doctrine of substitution? For the heck of it?
"Those who believe [in the Qur.an], and those who follow the Jewish [Scriptures], and the Christians and the Sabians, any one who believe in God and the last day, and work righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Sura 2:62).
Now, read a counter "revelation" in Sura Imran:
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam [Submission to God] he will be in the ranks of those who have lost all spiritual good" (Sura 3:85)
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/contradictions_in_the_koran.htm
http://www.1000mistakes.com/1000mistakes/index.php
You see? You couldn't bring yourself to state the subject of the Gospel, because you are filled with the spirit of antichrist from the enemy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 08:40:10 PM
Why on earth do you think that some verses have to be nullified through Muhammad's doctrine of substitution? For the heck of it?
http://www.1000mistakes.com/1000mistakes/index.php
You ssee? You couldn't bring yourself to state the subject of the Gospel, because you are filled with the spirit of antichrist from the enemy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Response: In other words, still no answer to the obvious contradiction in your Bible, thus confirming it is not the word of God.
As for the Qur'an, the Qur'an was revealed in stages. Not all at once. It was done this way because the people were not ready for the Qur'an all at once. So verses were revealed by Allah to straighten them up, then later cancelled so they were prepared to accept the final verses.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 08:47:31 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 08:40:10 PM
Why on earth do you think that some verses have to be nullified through Muhammad's doctrine of substitution? For the heck of it?
http://www.1000mistakes.com/1000mistakes/index.php
You ssee? You couldn't bring yourself to state the subject of the Gospel, because you are filled with the spirit of antichrist from the enemy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Response: In other words, still no answer to the obvious contradiction in your Bible, thus confirming it is not the word of God.
As for the Qur'an, the Qur'an was revealed in stages. Not all at once. It was done this way because the people were not ready for the Qur'an all at once. So verses were revealed by Allah to straighten them up, then later cancelled so they were prepared to accept the final verses.
The stages are a different subject.
You didn't address why some verses have to be nullified.
I showed you why, in the contradiction that I added to that post when you were posting.
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 05:18:43 PMSura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.
By Muhammad's day the Gospel had been translated into every popular language, copied tens of thousands of times, and had been read all over the "known world" for centuries.
So how did someone
uniformly change each and every one of those tens of thousands of copies of the gospel, in each of those different languages, that were spread and being read all over the known world for centuries before Muhammad was ever born.
Please explain how that could have been done.
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 08:53:49 PM
The stages are a different subject.
You didn't address why some verses have to be nullified.
I showed you why, in the contradiction that I added to that post when you were posting.
Response: I just told you why they were cancelled, which is because they were not meant to be the final revelation. They were staged to prepare the people for the final revelation.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 09:01:49 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 08:53:49 PM
The stages are a different subject.
You didn't address why some verses have to be nullified.
I showed you why, in the contradiction that I added to that post when you were posting.
Response: I just told you why they were cancelled, which is because they were not meant to be the final revelation. They were staged to prepare the people for the final revelation.
So a large part of the Quran has to be thrown out and substituted. The earlier yielding to the later.
Let me help you with which is which. Muhammad's earlier somewhat more peaceful pre-Hijra Mecca drivel had to be nullified by his later surah's that call his followers to terrorize, slay, conquer and subjugate non-Muslims to Muhammad's followers.
http://falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 09:08:07 PM
So a large part of the Quran had to be thrown out and substituted. The earlier yielding to the later.
Let me help you with which is which. Muhammad's earlier somewhat more peaceful pre-Hijra Mecca drivel had to be nullified by his later surah's that call his followers to terrorize, slay, conquer and subjugate non-Muslims to Muhammad's followers.
http://falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm
Response: The Qur'an as we have today is final and no verse in it has been cancelled. What was cancelled is not in the Qur'an.
As for substituting peace with violence, that would be your warlord Jesus.
"Think not that I am come to send peace on Earth, I came not to send Peace, but a sword" Matthew 10:34.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 09:14:43 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 09:08:07 PM
So a large part of the Quran had to be thrown out and substituted. The earlier yielding to the later.
Let me help you with which is which. Muhammad's earlier somewhat more peaceful pre-Hijra Mecca drivel had to be nullified by his later surah's that call his followers to terrorize, slay, conquer and subjugate non-Muslims to Muhammad's followers.
http://falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm
Response: The Qur'an as we have today is final and no verse in it has been cancelled. What was cancelled is not in the Qur'an.
Nice try, but this isn't some opinion of mine. If you had gone to the link I had provided you wouldn't have had to continue posting in ignorance.
Out of only 114 suras in the Quran, a whopping 71 are subject to abrogation. Al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh is the classic Islamic book, by esteemed Islamic scholar Abil-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn-Salama Abi-Nasr, that details all of the abrogated verses, and what they have been abrogated by.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 09:14:43 PMAs for substituting peace with violence, that would be your warlord Jesus.
"Think not that I have come to send peace on Earth, I came not for Peace, but a sword" Matthew 10:34.
Your blasphemy against the Messiah, the "Prince of Peace", is driven by the spirit of antichrist. Someone outside the Spirit of God that is in abject ignorance to the Gospel and desires to blaspheme the one true God, might draw that false conclusion. But
what sword did Jesus bring?Ephesians 6:12 .... the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=225.0
But what about the mass murdering genocidal Muhammad?
Tabari VIII:35/Ishaq:464 "The Jews were made to come down, and Allah's Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina (it is still its marketplace today), and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men."
http://falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm#banu_qurayza
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 09:30:52 PM
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 09:14:43 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 09:08:07 PM
So a large part of the Quran had to be thrown out and substituted. The earlier yielding to the later.
Let me help you with which is which. Muhammad's earlier somewhat more peaceful pre-Hijra Mecca drivel had to be nullified by his later surah's that call his followers to terrorize, slay, conquer and subjugate non-Muslims to Muhammad's followers.
http://falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm
Response: The Qur'an as we have today is final and no verse in it has been cancelled. What was cancelled is not in the Qur'an.
Nice try, but this isn't some opinion of mine. If you had gone to the link I had provided you wouldn't have had to continue posting in ignorance.
Out of only 114 suras in the Quran, a whopping 71 are subject to abrogation. Al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh is the classic Islamic book, by esteemed Islamic scholar Abil-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn-Salama Abi-Nasr, that details all of the abrogated verses, and what they have been abrogated by.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 09:14:43 PMAs for substituting peace with violence, that would be your warlord Jesus.
"Think not that I have come to send peace on Earth, I came not for Peace, but a sword" Matthew 10:34.
Your blasphemy against the Messiah, the "Prince of Peace", is driven by the spirit of antichrist. Someone outside the Spirit of God that is in abject ignorance to the Gospel and desires to blaspheme the one true God, might draw that false conclusion. But what sword did Jesus bring?
Ephesians 6:12 .... the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=225.0
But what about the mass murdering genocidal Muhammad?
Tabari VIII:35/Ishaq:464 "The Jews were made to come down, and Allah's Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina (it is still its marketplace today), and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men."
http://falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm#banu_qurayza
Response: And yet you still cannot quote from the Qur'an where it says a verse in the Qur'an is abrogated, thus refuting yourself. In fact, the Qur'an itself says it is free of discrepancy (4:82), thus debunking your abrogation claim.
Then you quote a reference from Al-Tabari, yet al-Tabari is not even an authentic source. Who says so> He says it himself.
Tabari says:
"Let him who examines this book of mine know that I have relied, as regards everything I mention therein which I stipulate to be described by me, solely upon what has been transmitted to me by way of reports which I cite therein and traditions which I ascribe to their narrators, to the exclusion of what may be apprehended by rational argument or deduced by the human mind, except in very few cases. This is because knowledge of the reports of men of the past and of contemporaneous views of men of the present do not reach the one who has not witnessed them nor lived in their times except through the accounts of reporters and the transmission of transmitters, to the exclusion of rational deduction and mental inference. Hence, if I mention in this book a report about some men of the past, which the reader of listener finds objectionable or worthy of censure because he can see no aspect of truth nor any factual substance therein, let him know that this is not to be attributed to us but to those who transmitted it to us and we have merely passed this on as it has been passed on to us."
Debunked by your own sources.
Whereas when we open your Bible, we see it is the work of blasphemy, and even slander against God. Such as Ezekiel 16:8 where God has sex with a girl, then verses 42-44 he gets jealous when she cheats on him.
What kind of God is that? A false one.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 09:58:40 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 09:30:52 PM
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 09:14:43 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 09:08:07 PM
So a large part of the Quran had to be thrown out and substituted. The earlier yielding to the later.
Let me help you with which is which. Muhammad's earlier somewhat more peaceful pre-Hijra Mecca drivel had to be nullified by his later surah's that call his followers to terrorize, slay, conquer and subjugate non-Muslims to Muhammad's followers.
http://falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm
Response: The Qur'an as we have today is final and no verse in it has been cancelled. What was cancelled is not in the Qur'an.
Nice try, but this isn't some opinion of mine. If you had gone to the link I had provided you wouldn't have had to continue posting in ignorance.
Out of only 114 suras in the Quran, a whopping 71 are subject to abrogation. Al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh is the classic Islamic book, by esteemed Islamic scholar Abil-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn-Salama Abi-Nasr, that details all of the abrogated verses, and what they have been abrogated by.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 09:14:43 PMAs for substituting peace with violence, that would be your warlord Jesus.
"Think not that I have come to send peace on Earth, I came not for Peace, but a sword" Matthew 10:34.
Your blasphemy against the Messiah, the "Prince of Peace", is driven by the spirit of antichrist. Someone outside the Spirit of God that is in abject ignorance to the Gospel and desires to blaspheme the one true God, might draw that false conclusion. But what sword did Jesus bring?
Ephesians 6:12 .... the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=225.0
But what about the mass murdering genocidal Muhammad?
Tabari VIII:35/Ishaq:464 "The Jews were made to come down, and Allah's Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina (it is still its marketplace today), and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men."
http://falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm#banu_qurayza
Response: And yet you still cannot quote from the Qur'an where it says a verse in the Qur'an is abrogated, thus refuting yourself.
Again:
"Those who believe [in the Qur.an], and those who follow the Jewish [Scriptures], and the Christians and the Sabians, any one who believe in God and the last day, and work righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Sura 2:62).
Now, read a counter "revelation" in Sura Imran:
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam [Submission to God] he will be in the ranks of those who have lost all spiritual good" (Sura 3:85)
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/contradictions_in_the_koran.htm
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 09:58:40 PMIn fact, the Qur'an itself says it is free of discrepancy (4:82), thus debunking your abrogation claim.
Whereas when we open your Bible, we see it is the work of blasphemy, and even slander against God. Such as Ezekiel 16:8 where God has sex with a girl, then verses 42-44 he gets jealous when she cheats on him.
What kind of God is that? A false one.
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 05:18:43 PMSura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.
By Muhammad's day the Gospel had been translated into every popular language, copied tens of thousands of times, and had been read all over the "known world" for centuries.
So how did someone
uniformly change each and every one of those tens of thousands of copies of the gospel, in each of those different languages, that were spread and being read all over the known world for centuries before Muhammad was ever born.
Please explain how that could have been done.
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 10:10:13 PM
Again:
"Those who believe [in the Qur.an], and those who follow the Jewish [Scriptures], and the Christians and the Sabians, any one who believe in God and the last day, and work righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Sura 2:62).
Now, read a counter "revelation" in Sura Imran:
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam [Submission to God] he will be in the ranks of those who have lost all spiritual good" (Sura 3:85)
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/contradictions_in_the_koran.htm
Response: Islam is submission to the will of Allah. So verse 2:62 shows no contradiction since it clear says the Christians, Jews and Sabians who believe in Allah, which makes them Muslims.
Another fail.
Whereas we see you still cannot address the obvious contradiction in your Bible
700 or 7,000 horses?
1 Chronicles 18:4 and 2 Samuel 8:4
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 09:58:40 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 09:30:52 PM
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 09:14:43 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 09:08:07 PM
So a large part of the Quran had to be thrown out and substituted. The earlier yielding to the later.
Let me help you with which is which. Muhammad's earlier somewhat more peaceful pre-Hijra Mecca drivel had to be nullified by his later surah's that call his followers to terrorize, slay, conquer and subjugate non-Muslims to Muhammad's followers.
http://falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm
Response: The Qur'an as we have today is final and no verse in it has been cancelled. What was cancelled is not in the Qur'an.
Nice try, but this isn't some opinion of mine. If you had gone to the link I had provided you wouldn't have had to continue posting in ignorance.
Out of only 114 suras in the Quran, a whopping 71 are subject to abrogation. Al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh is the classic Islamic book, by esteemed Islamic scholar Abil-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn-Salama Abi-Nasr, that details all of the abrogated verses, and what they have been abrogated by.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 09:14:43 PMAs for substituting peace with violence, that would be your warlord Jesus.
"Think not that I have come to send peace on Earth, I came not for Peace, but a sword" Matthew 10:34.
Your blasphemy against the Messiah, the "Prince of Peace", is driven by the spirit of antichrist. Someone outside the Spirit of God that is in abject ignorance to the Gospel and desires to blaspheme the one true God, might draw that false conclusion. But what sword did Jesus bring?
Ephesians 6:12 .... the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=225.0
But what about the mass murdering genocidal Muhammad?
Tabari VIII:35/Ishaq:464 "The Jews were made to come down, and Allah's Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina (it is still its marketplace today), and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men."
http://falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm#banu_qurayza
Response: And yet you still cannot quote from the Qur'an where it says a verse in the Qur'an is abrogated,.....
I don't have any problem using the terms "substituted" and "consigned to oblivion".
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 09:58:40 PM...... thus refuting yourself.
This isn't about me, my friend, as confirrmed by Al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 09:58:40 PMIn fact, the Qur'an itself says it is free of discrepancy (4:82), thus debunking your abrogation claim.
Then you quote a reference from Al-Tabari, yet al-Tabari is not even an authentic source.
So now you are going to deny that Muhammad slaughtered Jews and pressed their women and children into sexual slavery?
Surah 33:26 "Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things."
Deny that Muhammad''s orthodox followers have been slaughtering non-Muslims for 1400 years? For 800 years in India alone:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4712.0
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 09:58:40 PMWho says so> He says it himself.
You don't have to tell me Islam's books are full of lies. Particularly the Quran. Muhammad was the messenger of the father of lies. Even Muhammad knew it was a demon that met him in that cave. If Kadijah hadn't talked him out of that matter of fact, there wouldn't be an Islam.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 09:58:40 PM
Tabari says:
"Let him who examines this book of mine know that I have relied, as regards everything I mention therein which I stipulate to be described by me, solely upon what has been transmitted to me by way of reports which I cite therein and traditions which I ascribe to their narrators, to the exclusion of what may be apprehended by rational argument or deduced by the human mind, except in very few cases. This is because knowledge of the reports of men of the past and of contemporaneous views of men of the present do not reach the one who has not witnessed them nor lived in their times except through the accounts of reporters and the transmission of transmitters, to the exclusion of rational deduction and mental inference. Hence, if I mention in this book a report about some men of the past, which the reader of listener finds objectionable or worthy of censure because he can see no aspect of truth nor any factual substance therein, let him know that this is not to be attributed to us but to those who transmitted it to us and we have merely passed this on as it has been passed on to us."
Debunked by your own sources.
Whereas when we open your Bible, we see it is the work of blasphemy, and even slander against God. Such as Ezekiel 16:8 where God has sex with a girl, then verses 42-44 he gets jealous when she cheats on him.
Yet even after seeing how wrong you were about the sword that Jesus brought, and called the Prince of Peace a "warlord" you still can't imagine you could be misunderstanding. Yet the scriptures themselves explain it:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
You'd rather engage in blasphemy against God in the mold of Satan's "messenger".
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 09:58:40 PMWhat kind of God is that? A false one.
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 05:18:43 PMSura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.
By Muhammad's day the Gospel had been translated into every popular language, copied tens of thousands of times, and had been read all over the "known world" for centuries.
So how did someone
uniformly change each and every one of those tens of thousands of copies of the gospel, in each of those different languages, that were spread and being read all over the known world for centuries before Muhammad was ever born.
Please explain how that could have been done.
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 10:11:18 PM
So how did someone uniformly change each and every one of those tens of thousands of copies of the gospel, in each of those different languages, that were spread and being read all over the known world for centuries before Muhammad was ever born.
Please explain how that could have been done.
Response: I'm not concerned with how. The fact that it has been changed as shown by the many contradictions and discrepancies is proof enough the Bible is false and tampered.
700 or 7,000 horses?
1 Chronicles 18:4 and 2 Samuels 8:4
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 10:29:22 PM
I don't have any problem using the terms "substituted" and "consigned to oblivion".
This isn't about me, my friend, as confirrmed by Al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
So now you are going to deny that Muhammad slaughtered Jews and pressed their women and children into sexual slavery?
Surah 33:26 "Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things."
Deny that Muhammad''s orthodox followers have been slaughtering non-Muslims for 1400 years? For 800 years in India alone:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4712.0
You don't have to tell me Islam's books are full of lies. Particularly the Quran. Muhammad was the messenger of the father of lies. Even Muhammad knew it was a demon that met him in that cave. If Kadijah hadn't talked him out of that matter of fact, there wouldn't be an Islam.
Yet even after seeing how wrong you were about the sword that Jesus brought, and called the Prince of Peace a "warlord" you still can't imagine you could be misunderstanding. Yet the scriptures themselves explain it:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
You'd rather engage in blasphemy against God in the mold of Satan's "messenger".
Response: You quoted Tabari who himself does not say what he narrates is the truth. Your logic failed.
Yet your Bible is clear of your warlord Jesus:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on Earth. I came not to send peace, but a sword".
Your lord is against peace. He goes further and says:
"But those mine enemies who will not that I shall reign over thee, bring hither and slay them before me". Luke 19:27
Another example of the Christian mindstate, to kill and murder and refuse peace.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 10:31:24 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 10:11:18 PM
So how did someone uniformly change each and every one of those tens of thousands of copies of the gospel, in each of those different languages, that were spread and being read all over the known world for centuries before Muhammad was ever born.
Please explain how that could have been done.
Response: I'm not concerned with how.
Of course you can't concern yourself with how, because
even you can see the impossibility that somehow those tens of thousands of copies in all those languages cold have been uniformly changed to become the exact opposite of what they had been.
It would have been smarter for you to simply say "....well that's one of the verses that has been thrown out".
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 10:31:24 PMThe fact that it has been changed as shown by the many contradictions and discrepancies is proof enough the Bible is false and tampered.
700 or 7,000 horses?
1 Chronicles 18:4 and 2 Samuels 8:4
I'm talking about the whole subject of the Gospel, my friend. Not a verse or two.
And what did a leading expert on Qur'anic historical orthography and specialist in Arabic paleography, that was hired by the Yemeni government to study one of the oldest Qurans, have to say about it?
"My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants.
The Qur’an claims for itself that it is ‘mubeen,’ or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn’t make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but
the fact is that a fifth of the Qur’anic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur’an is not comprehensible, if it can’t even be understood in Arabic, then it’s not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur’an claims repeatedly to be clear but is notâ€"there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on."
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2576.0
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 10:45:04 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 10:29:22 PM
I don't have any problem using the terms "substituted" and "consigned to oblivion".
This isn't about me, my friend, as confirrmed by Al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
So now you are going to deny that Muhammad slaughtered Jews and pressed their women and children into sexual slavery?
Surah 33:26 "Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things."
Deny that Muhammad''s orthodox followers have been slaughtering non-Muslims for 1400 years? For 800 years in India alone:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4712.0
You don't have to tell me Islam's books are full of lies. Particularly the Quran. Muhammad was the messenger of the father of lies. Even Muhammad knew it was a demon that met him in that cave. If Kadijah hadn't talked him out of that matter of fact, there wouldn't be an Islam.
Yet even after seeing how wrong you were about the sword that Jesus brought, and called the Prince of Peace a "warlord" you still can't imagine you could be misunderstanding. Yet the scriptures themselves explain it:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
You'd rather engage in blasphemy against God in the mold of Satan's "messenger".
Response: You quoted Tabari who himself does not say what he narrates is the truth. Your logic failed.
Yet your Bible is clear of your warlord Jesus:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on Earth. I came not to send peace, but a sword".
Your lord is against peace. He goes further and says:
"But those mine enemies who will not that I shall reign over thee, bring hither and slay them before me". Luke 19:27
Another example of the Christian mindstate, to kill and murder and refuse peace.
Who is being quoted?
You can go to this forum thread to answer that question and refute your own lie. Take a moment and actuall put a little effort into seeking out the truth. I'm off to bed.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=223.0
Before you embarrass youself even further, by parroting the lies and deception of Islam's Greek sophist styled antichrist lying deceivers, I recommend you visit our forum section that covers the popular filth you have been trained to parrot.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=33.0
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 10:31:24 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 10:11:18 PM
So how did someone uniformly change each and every one of those tens of thousands of copies of the gospel, in each of those different languages, that were spread and being read all over the known world for centuries before Muhammad was ever born.
Please explain how that could have been done.
Response: I'm not concerned with how.
The reason being because it is an impossibility.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 10:31:24 PMThe fact that it has been changed as shown by the many contradictions and discrepancies is proof enough the Bible is false and tampered.
700 or 7,000 horses?
1 Chronicles 18:4 and 2 Samuels 8:4
Now that we've established the sheer impossibility that thousands of copies of the Gospel, penned in all of those languages and distributed throughout the whole "known world", could have been uniformly changed to have the whole subject become the exact opposite of what it had been, we find that Muhammad confirmed the Old Testament scriptures as well:
Sura 10:94 If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
Sura 5:68 Say: "
O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord."
Sura 80.13 (It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour, 14 Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,15 (Written) by the hands of scribes- 16 Honourable and Pious and Just.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 10:45:43 PM
Of course you can't concern yourself with how, because even you can see the impossibility that somehow those tens of thousands of copies in all those languages cold have been uniformly changed to become the exact opposite of what they had been.
It would have been smarter for you to simply say "....well that's one of the verses that has been thrown out".
I'm talking about the whole subject of the Gospel, my friend. Not a verse or two.
And what did a leading expert on Qur'anic historical orthography and specialist in Arabic paleography, that was hired by the Yemeni government to study one of the oldest Qurans, have to say about it?
"My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants. The Qur’an claims for itself that it is ‘mubeen,’ or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn’t make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur’anic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur’an is not comprehensible, if it can’t even be understood in Arabic, then it’s not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur’an claims repeatedly to be clear but is notâ€"there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on."
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2576.0
Response: You are making the claim that the Bible was uniformly the same, when it was not. Absolutely no evidence shows it was uniformly the same, So your bogus assertion is another strawman to hide the fact that the Bible you have now is false and tampered, as proven by the contradictions and discrepancies have shown from I that you continue to dodge. There are over 24,000 manuscripts of the Bible and NO TWO ARE IDENTICAL. So it was not uniformly the same. What we do know is that at the Council of Nicea, a standard version of your false Bible was created.
Even so, we still se an obvious contradiction in your Bible that you continue to run from.
There is an obvious contradiction in your Bible.
700 or 7.000 horses?
1 Chronicles 18:4 and 2 Samuels 8:4
Then you claim that the leading expert on Qur'anic historical orthography and specialists in Arabic paleography studied the oldest Qur'an and says the Qur'an is unclear. The claim itself makes no sense. Just because he claims to not understand does not mean it is not clear. That is a subjective claim, so it does not relate to everyone. Your logic continues to fail. Furthermore, he found them in ONE spot. Not throughout the world. So that alone refutes any claim of tampering.
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 10:52:12 PM
Who is being quoted?
You can go to this forum thread to answer that question and refute your own lie. Take a moment and actuall put a little effort into seeking out the truth. I'm off to bed.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=223.0
Before you embarrass youself even further, by parroting the lies and deception of Islam's Greek sophist styled antichrist lying deceivers, I recommend you visit our forum section that covers the popular filth you have been trained to parrot.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=33.0
Response: I just quoted your own Bible that says Jesus is not for peace and will slay those who will not follow him (Matthey 10:34 and Luke 19:27). SO before you continue to embarrass yourself even more, you should try addressing the obvious flaws of your own violent Jesus in your Bible.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 07:18:21 AM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 10:45:43 PM
Of course you can't concern yourself with how, because even you can see the impossibility that somehow those tens of thousands of copies in all those languages cold have been uniformly changed to become the exact opposite of what they had been.
It would have been smarter for you to simply say "....well that's one of the verses that has been thrown out".
I'm talking about the whole subject of the Gospel, my friend. Not a verse or two.
And what did a leading expert on Qur'anic historical orthography and specialist in Arabic paleography, that was hired by the Yemeni government to study one of the oldest Qurans, have to say about it?
"My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants. The Qur’an claims for itself that it is ‘mubeen,’ or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn’t make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur’anic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur’an is not comprehensible, if it can’t even be understood in Arabic, then it’s not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur’an claims repeatedly to be clear but is notâ€"there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on."
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2576.0
Response: You are making the claim that the Bible was uniformly the same, when it was not. Absolutely no evidence shows it was uniformly the same, So your bogus assertion is another strawman to hide the fact that the Bible you have now is false and tampered, as proven by the contradictions and discrepancies have shown from I that you continue to dodge.
And I showed you that 1/5 of one of the verses in one of the oldest Qurans don't even make sense. Than none of the oldest 4 qurans are consistent with each other any more than they are with your modern Quran. That much of the Quran has to be thrown out by Muhammad's doctrine of substitution due to contradiction.
It is you who are running and hiding from
the whole subject of the Gospel, by dithering on with the same Old Testament single-verse possible scribal error.
Running so hard that you were unable to even express what the subject of the Gospel is, because the father of lies controls your tongue and keyboard, as demonstrated by your lies about Jesus as warlord. Just like you, there is nothing Satan hates and runs away from more, than the whole subject of the Gospel.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 07:18:21 AMThere are over 24,000 manuscripts of the Bible and NO TWO ARE IDENTICAL. So it was not uniformly the same. What we do know is that at the Council of Nicea, a standard version of your false Bible was created.
Sorry, my friend, but "we" know of no such thing. The same foolish and impossible argument as claiming the Gospel was corrupted after Muhammad, since we have over 5300 partial or complete manuscripts of the Gospel that were translated into in many languages, that date prior to Nicea.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/bible_manuscript_errors_.htm
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 07:18:21 AM
Even so, we still se an obvious contradiction in your Bible that you continue to run from.
There is an obvious contradiction in your Bible.
700 or 7.000 horses?
1 Chronicles 18:4 and 2 Samuels 8:4
Then you claim that the leading expert on Qur'anic historical orthography and specialists in Arabic paleography studied the oldest Qur'an and says the Qur'an is unclear.
Far worse than that. About 1/5 of the verses don't even make sense.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 07:18:21 AMThe claim itself makes no sense. Just because he claims to not understand does not mean it is not clear. That is a subjective claim, so it does not relate to everyone.
He is a leading expert. That's why the Yemeni government hired him.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 07:18:21 AMYour logic continues to fail.
What you really mean is you refuse to consider what the expert said, because you choose to follow Muhammad alone. And it's interesting how Muhammadans play fast and loose with the word "logic". Tell me, is it logical to believe that Muhammad rode on a magic flying donkey-mule, from Mecca, up to the paradise of his overactive imagination, and back to Mecca by morning? Is it logical to believe the lie he told about praying in the temple on the temple mount, when it had been torn down 500 years before he told his preposterous lie about praying in it?
http://www.petewaldo.com/muhammads_night_journey.htm
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 07:18:21 AMFurthermore, he found them in ONE spot. Not throughout the world. So that alone refutes any claim of tampering.
If you are talking about the Yemeni manuscript as the "ONE spot", the other 3 oldest manuscripts are not only just as bad, but don't gibe with each other.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4707.0
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 07:25:41 AM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 18, 2015, 10:52:12 PM
Who is being quoted?
You can go to this forum thread to answer that question and refute your own lie. Take a moment and actuall put a little effort into seeking out the truth. I'm off to bed.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=223.0
Before you embarrass youself even further, by parroting the lies and deception of Islam's Greek sophist styled antichrist lying deceivers, I recommend you visit our forum section that covers the popular filth you have been trained to parrot.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=33.0
Response: I just quoted your own Bible that says Jesus is not for peace and will slay those who will not follow him (Matthey 10:34 and Luke 19:27). SO before you continue to embarrass yourself even more, you should try addressing the obvious flaws of your own violent Jesus in your Bible.
So you didn't even look at the link before repeating your filthy blasphemous lie?
Why did you avoid the question, but instead simply repeated your satanic lie?
Can you see why we had to institute forum rules about ignoring posters?
Who is being quoted in the parable that you lied about?
Jesus?
Why did Jesus speak in parables?http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=223.0
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 19, 2015, 07:51:19 AM
And I showed you that 1/5 of one of the verses in one of the oldest Qurans don't even make sense. Than none of the oldest 4 qurans are consistent with each other any more than they are with your modern Quran. That much of the Quran has to be thrown out by Muhammad's doctrine of substitution due to contradiction.
It is you who are running and hiding from the whole subject of the Gospel, by dithering on with the same Old Testament single-verse possible scribal error.
Running so hard that you were unable to even express what the subject of the Gospel is, because the father of lies controls your tongue and keyboard, as demonstrated by your lies about Jesus as warlord. Just like you, there is nothing Satan hates and runs away from more, than the whole subject of the Gospel.
Sorry, my friend, but "we" know of no such thing. The same foolish and impossible argument as claiming the Gospel was corrupted after Muhammad, since we have over 5300 partial or complete manuscripts of the Gospel that were translated into in many languages, that date prior to Nicea.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/bible_manuscript_errors_.htm
Far worse than that. About 1/5 of the verses don't even make sense.
He is a leading expert. That's why the Yemeni government hired him.
What you really mean is you refuse to consider what the expert said, because you choose to follow Muhammad alone. And it's interesting how Muhammadans play fast and loose with the word "logic". Tell me, is it logical to believe that Muhammad rode on a magic flying donkey-mule, from Mecca, up to the paradise of his overactive imagination, and back to Mecca by morning? Is it logical to believe the lie he told about praying in the temple on the temple mount, when it had been torn down 500 years before he told his preposterous lie about praying in it?
http://www.petewaldo.com/muhammads_night_journey.htm
If you are talking about the Yemeni manuscript as the "ONE spot", the other 3 oldest manuscripts are not only just as bad, but don't gibe with each other.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4707.0
Response: You made a claim that the subjective view of the oldest Qur'an cannot be understood, yet no source on Earth says that the people of the time did not understand it. Your subjective in failing to understand the oldest Qur'an does not mean everyone at the time also did not understand it. Nor does any record show that the oldest Qur'an found was the STANDARD Qur'an. You fail again.
At the same time, you still fail to refute the error and blatant contradiction in the Qur'an. The sad part is that I am being merciful to you, because I can post dozens of contradictions and discrepancies even more worse than this one. But I see that you do not have a clue, so I don't post them and try to save you from embarrassment. So I repeat the same one until you answer it.
700 or 7,000 horses?
1 Chronicles 18:4 and 2 Samuels 8:4
And the fact still remains that there are over 24,000 manuscripts with no two being identical. So even if they were translated into many languages, that only means that there exist over 24,000 translations and none of them are identical. So you just made your argument of the Bible even worse.
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 19, 2015, 07:57:17 AM
So you didn't even look at the link before repeating your filthy blasphemous lie?
Why did you avoid the question, but instead simply repeated your satanic lie?
Can you see why we had to institute forum rules about ignoring posters?
Who is being quoted in the parable that you lied about?
Jesus?
Why did Jesus speak in parables?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=223.0
Response: For starters, the debate is taking place HERE on the forum. So you need to post your argument in your own words HERE. Not send a link to an argument somewhere else. So no, not only did I not read your link, but I will NEVER do so. For if you are to afraid to state the argument yourself HERE on the forum, then there is no need to address it here. The debate is HERE. On this Forum.Not in your link to somewhere else. If you will not say what the argument is in your own words, then do not expect someone to refute it in their own words. I never used a link nor do I ever copy and paste ANYTHING. That shows intellect.
As for this alleged parable, the parable is about what Jesus would do to those who do not follow him. That is, as he states, he will KILL them. (Luke 19:27). So your point remains pointless.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 12:41:52 PMAnd the fact still remains that there are over 24,000 manuscripts with no two being identical.
The accounts of the Gospel are not identical either. This is how we can know they were independent but corroborating accounts of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Passover Lamb of God.
So how many witnesses were there to Muhammad riding around on a magic flying donkey-Mule?
How many people ever hear his alter-ego "Allah" or Gabriel give him a single revelation?
The simple fact of the matter is that you follow Muhammad for the same reason that his followers kiss the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca.
Can you share with us all the reasons Muhammad's followers kiss that black stone?
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 12:50:53 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 19, 2015, 07:57:17 AM
So you didn't even look at the link before repeating your filthy blasphemous lie?
Why did you avoid the question, but instead simply repeated your satanic lie?
Can you see why we had to institute forum rules about ignoring posters?
Who is being quoted in the parable that you lied about?
Jesus?
Why did Jesus speak in parables?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=223.0
Response: For starters, the debate is taking place HERE on the forum. So you need to post your argument in your own words HERE. Not send a link to an argument somewhere else.
That link is in my own words since I wrote it. I only offered it so you wouldn't have to remain in abject ignorance to what you were writing about.
So why not answer the question this time instead of dithering on and wasting both of our time.
Who is being quoted in that passage that you pretend to know so much about?Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 12:50:53 PMSo no, not only did I not read your link, but I will NEVER do so. For if you are to afraid to state the argument yourself HERE on the forum, then there is no need to address it here. The debate is HERE. On this Forum.Not in your link to somewhere else. If you will not say what the argument is in your own words, then do not expect someone to refute it in their own words. I never used a link nor do I ever copy and paste ANYTHING. That shows intellect.
As for this alleged parable, the parable is about what Jesus would do to those who do not follow him. That is, as he states, he will KILL them. (Luke 19:27). So your point remains pointless.
That's the third time Satan caused you lie about that passage, and Jesus.
But since the false prophet Muhammad was a mass murdering reprobate, it isn't a surprise that you would try to drag the Prince of Peace down into the mud with him.
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 19, 2015, 12:51:38 PM
The accounts of the Gospel are not identical either. This is how we can know they were independent but corroborating accounts of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Passover Lamb of God.
So how many witnesses were there to Muhammad riding around on a magic flying donkey-Mule?
How many people ever hear his alter-ego "Allah" or Gabriel give him a single revelation?
The simple fact of the matter is that you follow Muhammad for the same reason that his followers kiss the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca.
Can you share with us all the reasons Muhammad's followers kiss that black stone?
Response: Exactly. The accounts are not identical, and you do not have a clue what the original looks like. Thus supporting the fact your Bible was corrupted from the start. Thanks for clarifying/
As for the Qur'an and it's reliability, it is proven through the Qur'an challenge. What is the challenge?
"Will they not then meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."
“Verily, We, it is We who have sent down the Qur’an and surely we will guard it from corruptionâ€.Here we have a test that demonstrates that there is no error in the Qur'an, showing the truthful nature of the Qur'an. If a person disagrees, then the individual can take up the challenge to find a discrepancy in the Qur’an and when the person discovers that there is no discrepancy, then the only logical conclusion that can be derived is that whomever the author of the Qur’an is, the individual is a truth teller and righteous because all of the content in the Qur’an is without error, indecency, and immorality, and it is a guidance to righteousness. The question still remains as to who is the author? The Qur’an answers this question with the following test. The Qur’an states:
"And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah if you are truthful."
Here we have a test which proves that it is not humanly possible to produce a chapter like the Qur'an and proves so by challenging all of those who doubt so to prove so by trying to produce a chapter like the Qur'an. For when trying to produce a chapter like the Qur'an, the skeptic will learn first-hand that such a thing is humanly impossible to do.
But before the a skeptic develops the common response of simply producing something in Arabic or claiming that the challenge is not valid because not being able to produce a play like Shakespeare does not mean that the play is from God so the same analogy applies to the Qur'an, let me further elaborate. The Qur'an, like any scripture, is inspiration. And like any scripture, its intent is to inspire people to follow its teaching. Thus the challenge is to produce something that is as inspirational as the Qur'an, for it is the inspiration of the Qur'an that is miraculous. And what is that miracle? The miracle is within the following:
"It is humanly impossible for a person/s to inspire enough followers to help him/her/ them conquer and rule a nation by using human-made speech/literature that goes against the likes and beliefs of those people."This is the miracle of Muhammad. For the challenge proves that it is humanly impossible to use any speech or literature that goes against the majority and is invented by a person/s, to inspire enough followers amongst them to help to conquer and rule a nation. The skeptic still disagrees? Then take the challenge and prove differently. Try using a speech or literature that does not agree with the likes of a majority of people that is an invention by a person/s. Then use that very same speech to inspire them to conquer a nation for you to rule and see what happens. The challenge can even be simplified by asking a skeptic to just conquer and rule the street that he or she lives on and see what happens. Yet the person will fail and fail miserably. No person will come close to achieving the challenge. Any individual, when taking the challenge, will have a first-hand eyewitness account from experience and observation that such an act is humanly impossible and that is when the person will learn the miracle of Muhammad. Why? The reason is because Muhammad used the Qur'an to inspire enough followers to help him conquer and rule a nation in the same fashion. So since it is humanly impossible to use human-made speech or literature that goes against the likes of the masses to inspire them to follow a person/s to help conquer and rule a nation, yet Muhammad used the Qur'an to do just that, then what does that mean? That means that the Qur'an that Muhammad used is not the invention of any human but must come from a higher power and authority greater than humans, and that is Allah. Do the skeptics still disagree? Then take the challenge and prove differently. When the challengers fail, because they will, this will help to demonstrate that the Qur’an is of divine origin as proven by the scientific method itself because it provides a hands-on eyewitness account that producing something like the Qur’an is humanly impossible. If you read this, and you yourself disagree, then take the challenge and prove differently.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 01:17:51 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 19, 2015, 12:51:38 PM
The accounts of the Gospel are not identical either. This is how we can know they were independent but corroborating accounts of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Passover Lamb of God.
So how many witnesses were there to Muhammad riding around on a magic flying donkey-Mule?
How many people ever hear his alter-ego "Allah" or Gabriel give him a single revelation?
The simple fact of the matter is that you follow Muhammad for the same reason that his followers kiss the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca.
Can you share with us all the reasons Muhammad's followers kiss that black stone?
Response: Exactly. The accounts are not identical, and you do not have a clue what the original looks like. Thus supporting the fact your Bible was corrupted from the start. Thanks for clarifying/
That wasn't a "Response". Try it again.
Please list all the reasons Muhammad's followers kiss the Quraish pagan's black stone idol.(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Coveting_the_Black_Stone.jpg/250px-Coveting_the_Black_Stone.jpg)
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 19, 2015, 03:38:01 PM
That wasn't a "Response". Try it again.
Please list all the reasons Muhammad's followers kiss the Quraish pagan's black stone idol.
Response: Yet your weak rebuttal shows otherwise. Debunked as usual. Try again.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 01:17:51 PM"It is humanly impossible for a person/s to inspire enough followers to help him/her/ them conquer and rule a nation by using human-made speech/literature that goes against the likes and beliefs of those people."
This is the miracle of Muhammad.
That's ridiculous. Some "miracle". This is the product of parroting others, while lacking the capacity for critical thought to really consider what they wrote.
The same can be said of one of the people that used Muhammad as mentor - Adolf Hitler.
"Understanding Hitler's motivation is important because ultimately the two most diabolical doctrines ever conceived by man were the direct result of an abused childhood. A festering rage caused both founders to covet what they were denied and hate those they viewed responsible for their torment."
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2371.0
The same "miracle" was performed by anyone that has been morally reprobate enough to engage in imperialistic conquest of innocents by force and murder. Like Genghis Khan for another example.
Even easier to attract a horde of reprobates when one that duped/dupes his followers into believing they will go to heaven as a reward for their imperialistic slaughter. Let alone while enticing his fellow reprobates with the allure of stealing the fruit of the labor of others as "booty", and little girls and women of the vanquished to rape, as an added bonus.
Bukhari V4 B52 #73: Narrated 'Abdullah bin Abi Aufa: Allah's Apostle said, "Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords."
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 03:40:49 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 19, 2015, 03:38:01 PM
That wasn't a "Response". Try it again.
Please list all the reasons Muhammad's followers kiss the Quraish pagan's black stone idol.
Response: Yet your weak rebuttal shows otherwise. Debunked as usual. Try again.
That wasn't a rebutal. It was a repeat of the first item I covered in my post - that you ignored and continue to ignore.That was the same question. Now answer it.
List all the reasons Muhammad's followers kiss the Quraish pagan's black stone idol.Here's a hint. It's the same singular reason Muhammad's followers are Muhammad's followers.
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 19, 2015, 03:45:14 PM
That's ridiculous. The same can be said of one of the people that used Muhammad as mentor - Hitler. The same can be said of anyone who engages in imperialistic conquest by force and murder. Like Genghis Khan for another example. Even easier for one that duped/dupes his followers into believing they will go to heaven as a reward for their imperialistic slaughter.
Bukhari V4 B52 #73: Narrated 'Abdullah bin Abi Aufa: Allah's Apostle said, "Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords."
Response: In other words, you failed to answer the challenge. Saying Hitler did it is evidence from hearsay, while the challenge is to do it yourself which is firsthand evidence. Hearsay is not more credible that a hands-on eyewitness account. So your argument fails to refute the fact that the Qur'an challenge proves the Qur'an is the true word of Allah.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 04:05:21 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 19, 2015, 03:45:14 PM
That's ridiculous. The same can be said of one of the people that used Muhammad as mentor - Hitler. The same can be said of anyone who engages in imperialistic conquest by force and murder. Like Genghis Khan for another example. Even easier for one that duped/dupes his followers into believing they will go to heaven as a reward for their imperialistic slaughter.
Bukhari V4 B52 #73: Narrated 'Abdullah bin Abi Aufa: Allah's Apostle said, "Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords."
Response: In other words, you failed to answer the challenge. Saying Hitler did it is evidence from hearsay, while the challenge is to do it yourself which is firsthand evidence. Hearsay is not more credible that a hands-on eyewitness account. So your argument fails to refute the fact that the Qur'an challenge proves the Qur'an is the true word of Allah.
Now your posts are becoming unintelligible. Also I embellished that post further, not noticing you posted. Please take another crack at it. This time try to use your grammar schooling in a fashion that makes what you are trying to say understandable.
Otherwise my answer would have to be that I would not "do it myself" because I am not morally bankrupt and reprobate as Muhammad was, so I couldn't slaughter and conquer others, and press them into submission to myself. I am a Christian that is called to love, even my enemies.
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 19, 2015, 04:19:33 PM
Now your posts are becoming unintelligible. Also I embellished that post further, not noticing you posted. Please take another crack at it. This time try to use your grammar schooling in a fashion that makes what you are trying to say understandable.
Otherwise my answer would have to be that I would not "do it myself" because I am not morally bankrupt and reprobate as Muhammad was, so I couldn't slaughter and conquer others, and press them into submission to myself. I am a Christian that is called to love, even my enemies.
Response: And yet we see you continue to fail to answer the challenge. For the challenge clearly states for YOU YOURSELF to inspire enough followers to conquer and rule a nation, or even just the street you live on, by using human-made speech/literature that goes against the wants of a mass of people, as proof that such an act is humanly possible. So have you conquered and ruled a nation? NO. Have you conquered and ruled the street you live on? NO. Thus you've done absolutely nothing in answering the challenge and have been dodging it from the beginning. Thus your ducking and dodging to attempt the challenge once again confirms your denial to the fact that the Qur'an is the true word of Allah.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 05:49:34 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 19, 2015, 04:19:33 PM
Now your posts are becoming unintelligible. Also I embellished that post further, not noticing you posted. Please take another crack at it. This time try to use your grammar schooling in a fashion that makes what you are trying to say understandable.
Otherwise my answer would have to be that I would not "do it myself" because I am not morally bankrupt and reprobate as Muhammad was, so I couldn't slaughter and conquer others, and press them into submission to myself. I am a Christian that is called to love, even my enemies.
Response: And yet we see you continue to fail to answer the challenge. For the challenge clearly states for YOU YOURSELF to inspire enough followers to conquer and rule a nation, or even just the street you live on, by using human-made speech/literature that goes against the wants of a mass of people, as proof that such an act is humanly possible.
Speech and literature? That's ridiculous. You know as well as I that the formula is the same in Islam today as it was in Muhammad's day. If you leave Islam you are killed - just like the Mafia.
At least 9 Islamic states are still reprobate and barbaric enough to impose the death penalty by state statute for leaving Islam.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/death_penalty_apostasy.htm
For those in countries that do not impose the death penalty for leaving Islam, Muhammad's followrs face being disowned by their family and friends, shunned by their community, face loosing their job or may even be killed buy one of their own parents or other relatives.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 05:49:34 PMSo have you conquered and ruled a nation? NO.
No, because I'm not a Satan driven imperialistic reprobate like Muhammad, Hitler and Genghis Khan.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 05:49:34 PMHave you conquered and ruled the street you live on? NO. Thus you've done absolutely nothing in answering the challenge and have been dodging it from the beginning. Thus your ducking and dodging to attempt the challenge once again confirms your denial to the fact that the Qur'an is the true word of Allah.
What you really mean is you lie to yourself about exactly how Muhammadanism has always been spread and maintained by force and the sword. Just as Muhammadan books indicate. Not only by killing Muslims for leaving Islam, but killing Muhammadans or anybody else, for speaking openly and honestly about Muhammad as he is revealed in Islam's own books.
At least 6 Islamic nation States are still reprobate and barbaric enough to impose the death penalty for so-called "blasphemy".
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/blasphemy_laws.htm
Sorry my friend, but you are sorely deluded. I follow the one true God YHWH (commonly said "Yahweh"), as he revealed Himself through all of the prophets and witnesses, in His 1600-year record to mankind, whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years. Christians are in Christ, and Christ in us.
While you follow the blasphemous, specifically counter-gospel exact opposite, through the
stand-alone 23-year 7th century record, of THE murderous thief and false prophet Muhammad alone, through recycled and thinly veneered pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals, and specifically in the spirit of antichrist. Your choice, your fate.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#index
We can fully appreciate your embarrassment, but for the 4th time, please list all the reasons Muhammad's followers kiss the Quraish pagan's black stone idol.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Coveting_the_Black_Stone.jpg/250px-Coveting_the_Black_Stone.jpg)
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 20, 2015, 06:57:17 AM
Speech and literature? That's ridiculous. You know as well as I that the formula is the same in Islam today as it was in Muhammad's day. If you leave Islam you are killed - just like the Mafia.
At least 9 Islamic states are still reprobate and barbaric enough to impose the death penalty by state statute for leaving Islam.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/death_penalty_apostasy.htm
For those in countries that do not impose the death penalty for leaving Islam, Muhammad's followrs face being disowned by their family and friends, shunned by their community, face loosing their job or may even be killed buy one of their own parents or other relatives.
No, because I'm not a Satan driven imperialistic reprobate like Muhammad, Hitler and Genghis Khan.
What you really mean is you lie to yourself about exactly how Muhammadanism has always been spread and maintained by force and the sword. Just as Muhammadan books indicate. Not only by killing Muslims for leaving Islam, but killing Muhammadans or anybody else, for speaking openly and honestly about Muhammad as he is revealed in Islam's own books.
At least 6 Islamic nation States are still reprobate and barbaric enough to impose the death penalty for so-called "blasphemy".
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/blasphemy_laws.htm
Sorry my friend, but you are sorely deluded. I follow the one true God YHWH (commonly said "Yahweh"), as he revealed Himself through all of the prophets and witnesses, in His 1600-year record to mankind, whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years. Christians are in Christ, and Christ in us.
While you follow the blasphemous, specifically counter-gospel exact opposite, through the stand-alone 23-year 7th century record, of THE murderous thief and false prophet Muhammad alone, through recycled and thinly veneered pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals, and specifically in the spirit of antichrist. Your choice, your fate.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#index
Response: And once again we see you still fail to answer the challenge. As no where above do we see you make an attempt to produce a chapter like the Qur'an, thus supporting the fact that the Qur'an is not manmade, and comes from Allah. Debunked as usual.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 20, 2015, 05:00:14 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 20, 2015, 06:57:17 AM
Speech and literature? That's ridiculous. You know as well as I that the formula is the same in Islam today as it was in Muhammad's day. If you leave Islam you are killed - just like the Mafia.
At least 9 Islamic states are still reprobate and barbaric enough to impose the death penalty by state statute for leaving Islam.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/death_penalty_apostasy.htm
For those in countries that do not impose the death penalty for leaving Islam, Muhammad's followrs face being disowned by their family and friends, shunned by their community, face loosing their job or may even be killed buy one of their own parents or other relatives.
No, because I'm not a Satan driven imperialistic reprobate like Muhammad, Hitler and Genghis Khan.
What you really mean is you lie to yourself about exactly how Muhammadanism has always been spread and maintained by force and the sword. Just as Muhammadan books indicate. Not only by killing Muslims for leaving Islam, but killing Muhammadans or anybody else, for speaking openly and honestly about Muhammad as he is revealed in Islam's own books.
At least 6 Islamic nation States are still reprobate and barbaric enough to impose the death penalty for so-called "blasphemy".
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/blasphemy_laws.htm
Sorry my friend, but you are sorely deluded. I follow the one true God YHWH (commonly said "Yahweh"), as he revealed Himself through all of the prophets and witnesses, in His 1600-year record to mankind, whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years. Christians are in Christ, and Christ in us.
While you follow the blasphemous, specifically counter-gospel exact opposite, through the stand-alone 23-year 7th century record, of THE murderous thief and false prophet Muhammad alone, through recycled and thinly veneered pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals, and specifically in the spirit of antichrist. Your choice, your fate.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#index
Response: And once again we see you still fail to answer the challenge. As no where above do we see you make an attempt to produce a chapter like the Qur'an, thus supporting the fact that the Qur'an is not manmade, and comes from Allah. Debunked as usual.
I thought your challenge was why I didn't think it was binding on me to fight and slay to conquer and subjugate those that don't believe as I, the way Muhammad and Hitler and their reprobate followers did.
The scriptures of my great God Yahweh, make the Quran look like children's scribbling by comparison, but then that's because the Quran's illiterate author lacked the mental capacity to produce better.
Let's take an example chapter from the Old Testament scriptures of my great God Yahweh:
Psa 23:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. 3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. 4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. 5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. 6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
Here's a New Testament chapter example:
1John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. 11
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. 15
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us. 20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
While they talk about love, rather than the reprobate evil and violence we find in the Quran and Hadith, at least we can know they are words inspired by the one true God YHWH, as directly opposed to the exact opposite of the scriptures we find in the Quran, and the hatred the false prophet Muhammad fills his followers hearts with as manifest in his orthodox followers all around the world today.
Now for the 5th time, and while we can fully appreciate the embarrassment that compels you to run and hide from the question, would you nonetheless please list all the reasons Muhammad's followers kiss the Quraish pagan's black stone idol.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Coveting_the_Black_Stone.jpg/250px-Coveting_the_Black_Stone.jpg)
I split off and locked the space you wasted (http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4728.0) and I had to wast in reply, while you were trying to avoid the prior question.
When you joined the forum you agreed to engage in an exchange. If you do not reply to the question in the prior post, but engage in further obfuscation, it will be spilt off and added to that locked wasted posting.
Or even offered the unusual threat of simply being discarded, in order to preclude you from wasting your time composing a non-responsive or unrelated post, that could be thrown out.
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 20, 2015, 05:32:07 PM
Now for the 5th time, and while we can fully appreciate the embarrassment that compels you to run and hide from the question, would you nonetheless please list all the reasons Muhammad's followers kiss the Quraish pagan's black stone idol.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Coveting_the_Black_Stone.jpg/250px-Coveting_the_Black_Stone.jpg)
Now I suppose I could have hidden some of the undeniable content (according to Islam's books) in that question, but then that would have been doing you and Muhammad's followers after you, a disservice. It is my effort to help you overcome Islam's pagan traditions by pointing out the truth, rather than hiding the truth from you.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1133.0
I don't doubt that even some Muslims are unaware that they venerate the very same black stone idol as representing Muhammad's/their deity "Allah", that the Quraish pagans venerated as representing their deity, long before Muhammad was ever born.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1050.0
Some may even be unaware that the Quraish built the Kaaba.
Sahih Muslim Book 007, Number 3078: 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger may peace be upon him) said to me: Had your people not been unbelievers in the recent past (had they not quite recently accepted Islam), I would have demolished the Ka'ba and would have rebuilt it on the foundation (laid) by Ibrahim;
for when the Quraish had built the Ka'ba, they reduced its (area), and I would also have built (a door) in the rear.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj___umrah.htm#kaaba
They might not even know that the pagans and Muhammad and his followers circumambulated the Kaaba shoulder to shoulder, right up until the year before Muhammad's last Hajj, after which the poor pagans were kicked out of their own ritual:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 689: Narrated Abu Huraira:
In the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Allahs Apostle made Abu Bakr the leader of the pilgrims, the latter
(Abu Bakr) sent me in the company of a group of people to make a public announcement: 'No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year, and no naked person is allowed to perform Tawaf of the Kaba.'
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj___umrah.htm#twaf
Now the question I asked is readily answered by most any Muslim on the street, so why don't you take a crack at it?
Please list all the reasons Muslims kiss the black stone at the Kaaba in Mecca.I ask the question because it is quite important for your personal well being.
I'll even give you a hint:
Bukhari B26 #679 Narrated Zaid bin Aslam that his father said: "I saw 'Umar bin Al-Khattab kissing the Black Stone and he then said, (to it) '
Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you, (stone) I would not have kissed you.'"
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 20, 2015, 05:22:48 PM
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 20, 2015, 05:00:14 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 20, 2015, 06:57:17 AM
Speech and literature? That's ridiculous. You know as well as I that the formula is the same in Islam today as it was in Muhammad's day. If you leave Islam you are killed - just like the Mafia.
At least 9 Islamic states are still reprobate and barbaric enough to impose the death penalty by state statute for leaving Islam.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/death_penalty_apostasy.htm
For those in countries that do not impose the death penalty for leaving Islam, Muhammad's followrs face being disowned by their family and friends, shunned by their community, face loosing their job or may even be killed buy one of their own parents or other relatives.
No, because I'm not a Satan driven imperialistic reprobate like Muhammad, Hitler and Genghis Khan.
What you really mean is you lie to yourself about exactly how Muhammadanism has always been spread and maintained by force and the sword. Just as Muhammadan books indicate. Not only by killing Muslims for leaving Islam, but killing Muhammadans or anybody else, for speaking openly and honestly about Muhammad as he is revealed in Islam's own books.
At least 6 Islamic nation States are still reprobate and barbaric enough to impose the death penalty for so-called "blasphemy".
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/blasphemy_laws.htm
Sorry my friend, but you are sorely deluded. I follow the one true God YHWH (commonly said "Yahweh"), as he revealed Himself through all of the prophets and witnesses, in His 1600-year record to mankind, whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years. Christians are in Christ, and Christ in us.
While you follow the blasphemous, specifically counter-gospel exact opposite, through the stand-alone 23-year 7th century record, of THE murderous thief and false prophet Muhammad alone, through recycled and thinly veneered pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals, and specifically in the spirit of antichrist. Your choice, your fate.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#index
Response: And once again we see you still fail to answer the challenge. As no where above do we see you make an attempt to produce a chapter like the Qur'an, thus supporting the fact that the Qur'an is not manmade, and comes from Allah. Debunked as usual.
I thought your challenge was why I didn't think it was binding on me to fight and slay to conquer and subjugate those that don't believe as I, the way Muhammad and Hitler and their reprobate followers did.
The scriptures of my great God Yahweh, make the Quran look like children's scribbling by comparison, but then that's because the Quran's illiterate author lacked the mental capacity to produce better.
Let's take an example chapter from the Old Testament scriptures of my great God Yahweh:
Psa 23:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. 3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. 4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. 5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. 6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
Here's a New Testament chapter example:
1John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us. 20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
While they talk about love, rather than the reprobate evil and violence we find in the Quran and Hadith, at least we can know they are words inspired by the one true God YHWH, as directly opposed to the exact opposite of the scriptures we find in the Quran, and the hatred the false prophet Muhammad fills his followers hearts with as manifest in his orthodox followers all around the world today.
Response: The challenge was for you to produce a chapter like the Qur'an as proof that it is human made, yet you fail to do so. Thus your repeated failure shows the Qur'an is the true word of Allah.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 21, 2015, 07:17:05 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 20, 2015, 05:22:48 PM
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 20, 2015, 05:00:14 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 20, 2015, 06:57:17 AM
Speech and literature? That's ridiculous. You know as well as I that the formula is the same in Islam today as it was in Muhammad's day. If you leave Islam you are killed - just like the Mafia.
At least 9 Islamic states are still reprobate and barbaric enough to impose the death penalty by state statute for leaving Islam.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/death_penalty_apostasy.htm
For those in countries that do not impose the death penalty for leaving Islam, Muhammad's followrs face being disowned by their family and friends, shunned by their community, face loosing their job or may even be killed buy one of their own parents or other relatives.
No, because I'm not a Satan driven imperialistic reprobate like Muhammad, Hitler and Genghis Khan.
What you really mean is you lie to yourself about exactly how Muhammadanism has always been spread and maintained by force and the sword. Just as Muhammadan books indicate. Not only by killing Muslims for leaving Islam, but killing Muhammadans or anybody else, for speaking openly and honestly about Muhammad as he is revealed in Islam's own books.
At least 6 Islamic nation States are still reprobate and barbaric enough to impose the death penalty for so-called "blasphemy".
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/blasphemy_laws.htm
Sorry my friend, but you are sorely deluded. I follow the one true God YHWH (commonly said "Yahweh"), as he revealed Himself through all of the prophets and witnesses, in His 1600-year record to mankind, whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years. Christians are in Christ, and Christ in us.
While you follow the blasphemous, specifically counter-gospel exact opposite, through the stand-alone 23-year 7th century record, of THE murderous thief and false prophet Muhammad alone, through recycled and thinly veneered pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals, and specifically in the spirit of antichrist. Your choice, your fate.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#index
Response: And once again we see you still fail to answer the challenge. As no where above do we see you make an attempt to produce a chapter like the Qur'an, thus supporting the fact that the Qur'an is not manmade, and comes from Allah. Debunked as usual.
I thought your challenge was why I didn't think it was binding on me to fight and slay to conquer and subjugate those that don't believe as I, the way Muhammad and Hitler and their reprobate followers did.
The scriptures of my great God Yahweh, make the Quran look like children's scribbling by comparison, but then that's because the Quran's illiterate author lacked the mental capacity to produce better.
Let's take an example chapter from the Old Testament scriptures of my great God Yahweh:
Psa 23:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. 3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. 4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. 5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. 6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
Here's a New Testament chapter example:
1John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us. 20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
While they talk about love, rather than the reprobate evil and violence we find in the Quran and Hadith, at least we can know they are words inspired by the one true God YHWH, as directly opposed to the exact opposite of the scriptures we find in the Quran, and the hatred the false prophet Muhammad fills his followers hearts with as manifest in his orthodox followers all around the world today.
Response: The challenge was for you to produce a chapter like the Qur'an as proof that it is human made, yet you fail to do so. Thus your repeated failure shows the Qur'an is the true word of Allah.
Simply because you are willing to parrot a false claim, won't make it magically come true.
It is now your responsibility to show us a chapter from the Quran that is more beautiful that the chapters I presented from the 1600 year record of the one true God Yahweh.
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 21, 2015, 07:57:33 PM
Simply because you are willing to parrot a false claim, won't make it magically come true.
It is now your responsibility to show us a chapter from the Quran that is more beautiful that the chapters I presented from the 1600 year record of the one true God Yahweh.
Response: The challenge clearly states for YOU YOURSELF to inspire enough followers to conquer and rule a nation, or even just the street you live on, by using human-made speech/literature that goes against the wants of a mass of people, as proof that such an act is humanly possible. So have you conquered and ruled a nation? NO. Have you conquered and ruled the street you live on? NO. Thus you've done absolutely nothing in answering the challenge and have been dodging it from the beginning. Thus your ducking and dodging to attempt the challenge once again confirms your denial to the fact that the Qur'an is the true word of Allah.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 21, 2015, 08:03:45 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 21, 2015, 07:57:33 PM
Simply because you are willing to parrot a false claim, won't make it magically come true.
It is now your responsibility to show us a chapter from the Quran that is more beautiful that the chapters I presented from the 1600 year record of the one true God Yahweh.
Response: The challenge clearly states for YOU YOURSELF to inspire enough followers to conquer and rule a nation, or even just the street you live on, by using human-made speech/literature that goes against the wants of a mass of people, as proof that such an act is humanly possible.
As I already stated I am not a murderous, moral reprobate like Muhammad, Hitler or Genghis Khan, and am a citizen of the kingdom of Jesus Christ, so I would have no interest in ruling one of Satan's kingdoms of this world. But through your silence on those verses we can see your tacit admission that the true prophets and witnesses of the record of revelation of the one true God Yaweh, produced many more beautiful chapters in the scriptures, than any of the ugly childish nonsensical tripe that the false prophet Muhammad churned out in his Quran.
Regarding the people those true prophets of the one true God win over to the kingdom of Jesus Christ, the fact is that 1/3 of mankind in the world today believe that Christ was crucified, died and was resurrected from the dead, to save all from being condemned to dying in our sin who have faith in the shed blood of the sacrifice of the Passover Lamb of God.
Regarding the kingdoms of this world, they have been Satan's legal possession, ever since Adam's fall. That's why Muhammadans lust after ruling them and subjugating the rest of the world to the same misery, bondage and slavery Muhammadans have to suffer. Your post exhibits the jealousy you harbor for the freedom, liberty and right to self-determination of others that enjoy human rights. Particularly those of us that enjoy the freedom we find in relationship with Christ Jesus, the Son of God. That's why Muhammadans are out there slaughtering Christians, around the world, simply for being Christians.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
While you suffer the bondage of the children of the flesh:
Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
The kingdom of Jesus Christ is not of this world.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
You lust after and love Satan's kingdoms of the flesh of this world, like those that murder their own cult members for leaving Islam, which is why you may be setting yourself up for an eternal fate in his company.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 21, 2015, 08:03:45 PMSo have you conquered and ruled a nation? NO. Have you conquered and ruled the street you live on? NO. Thus you've done absolutely nothing in answering the challenge and have been dodging it from the beginning. Thus your ducking and dodging to attempt the challenge once again confirms your denial to the fact that the Qur'an is the true word of Allah.
The Quran is the product of the imaginings of the childlike mind of a 7th century SW Arabian desert dwelling illiterate. Particularly when we put the chapters from the scriptures of the one true God next to it, they are not "like it", but far superior to it.
Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 18, 2015, 09:58:40 PMResponse: And yet you still cannot quote from the Qur'an where it says a verse in the Qur'an is abrogated, thus refuting yourself. In fact, the Qur'an itself says it is free of discrepancy (4:82), thus debunking your abrogation claim.
Here's a part of your post I didn't address. Your post is the product of a seriously compromised capacity for critical thought. Just like Muhammad lied about being a prophet, and even though he denied the whole subject of the the prophets and witnesses of the Gospel of the one true God, Muhammad was nonetheless still able to fool you into believing he was a prophet simply because you are willing to take his word for it, even though you are going directly against the one true God.
By the same token the quran lies about itself with that verse, as is concretely proven by the fact that it is so full of discrepancy that even Muhammad knew what a mess he had made of it, and thus was compelled to address it by creating his doctrine of substitution. Indeed according to "Al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh", a whopping 71 out of only 114 chapters of the Quran are subject to Muhammad's doctrine of "consigning to oblivion", and "substituting" with surahs that came later in so-called "revelation".
2:106 (Asad)
Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar
one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
The Quran lies about itself throughout. Just like the nonsense expressed in the Yusuf Ali version of that verse:
2:106
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but
We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
"Gee, see right there in the Quran Muhammad says he doesn't abrogate anything! Hmmmm............he just .................... he just ......................
substitutes the earlier message with the later message that contradicts it!"
Abrogate
1. to abolish by formal or official means; annul by an authoritative act; repeal:
to abrogate a law.
2. to put aside; put an end to.
In the wake of the recent crescendo that culminated in the rapid blizzard of repetitive posts on several threads, contrary to the rules you agreed to when you joined, we will offer you a 3 day vacation during which time we hope you can collect and compose yourself. You can still log in and use some forum functions.
When you return from your brief vacation we can begin here:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4721.msg18252#msg18252
If he were to give the only answer there is to give, that would have him admit the Quran is in error. That is why he sidesteps it!
Quote from: Bistabuster on August 22, 2015, 11:55:48 PM
If he were to give the only answer there is to give, that would have him admit the Quran is in error. That is why he sidesteps it!
Perhaps he did a review of his participation over his 3 day vacation, and was better able to see how abysmal his failed defense of Muhammadanism was (through his parroting of Islam's entertainers), and realized just how indefensible Islam really is. Whether considered under the lens of scripture, history, archaeology or geography. At least we can hope he received that first spark of cognitive dissonance.
Will there be more conversations here?
Quote from: Bistabuster on August 30, 2015, 05:40:49 PM
Will there be more conversations here?
He only received a 3 day vacation, after his abusive and forum agreement-contrary rapid-fire posting on thread after thread within minutes, without waiting for reply. It's been lots more days since then. I'm guessing he had a chance to look back at how contrary to the truth of the one true God, and how irrational and indefensible his beliefs are, and perhaps didn't have the stomach to continue. His capacity for reading and comprehending seemed quite challenged at best. "It's in Arabia" "I agree it's in Arabia" "but its in Arabia" "I agree it's in Arabia" "but it's in Arabia" "I agree......"
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4727.0