Salam to my Christian friends
I stumble upon this site and had the chance to read through some of the comments from the forumers here. I am sad to note that there are so much hatred, misconceptions and bigotry against Islam and his Prophet.
I would like to reach out to the same people who write erroneous things about Islam, as well as Christians who are open to intelligent discussions and who are more objective in tackling issues regarding Islam and Christianity.
Maybe, we should start with a topical discussion. Let us discuss the status of Jesus, the son of Mary, and maybe Christians would like to tell me why you claim Jesus was God, when I have not seen any statement from Jesus that he ever claimed to be God or His son.
Looking forward to your reply.... and hopefully a constructive discussion.
Regards
I guess I answered your second post first:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2023.msg19499#msg19499
Quote from: relaxboy on August 01, 2016, 09:06:16 PM
Salam to my Christian friends
Hello again to you my friend and welcome to the forum. May God bless you.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 01, 2016, 09:06:16 PMI stumble upon this site and had the chance to read through some of the comments from the forumers here. I am sad to note that there are so much hatred,.........
As Christians, the best and most important way for us to love our Muslim could-become-brethren, is to show them the truth. Our hatred of Islam stems from the fact that it is the exact opposite of that revealed through the love of the one true God, since
Muhammad deceived his followers into denying the whole subject of the Gospel.
You see, while this is a bit of "tough love", from a Christian perspective Muhammad was a lying, antichrist, hater and bigot, who along with his followers, blaspheme our Lord and Savior by proclaiming such blasphemy as:
Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten
a son!" 89
Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!While our Gospel proclaims:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Again the Quran:
Surah 9.29 Fight those.....(even if they are) of the People of the Book.....30 .....
Christians call Christ the son of Allah. ..... Allah's curse be on them:
how they are deluded away from the Truth!And again the Gospel:
1Jo 4:15
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.Can you understand it is a 2-way street? Can you understand that Muhammad's 23-year 7th century record, is absolutely irreconcilable with the 1600 year record of the one true God of Jews and Christians, as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses? That the Quran is as opposite to the whole subject of the Gospel as Muhammad was the opposite of Jesus Christ?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm
Here are some of your former brethren that have come to know the love of the one true God through a relationship with Jesus Christ:
http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.php
Quote from: relaxboy on August 01, 2016, 09:06:16 PM.........misconceptions and bigotry against Islam and his Prophet.
I hope you can point out some of the "misconceptions" that you believe we have regarding true, fundamental, orthodox Islam.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#muslim_hypocrites
Since Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel - that is, filled his followers with complete resolve as to what to
DISbelieve - it should be no surprise that when we point this out it could be misconstrued as "bigotry" against Muhammad and his stand-alone, 7th century, counter-Gospel, anti-religion.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm
Quote from: relaxboy on August 01, 2016, 09:06:16 PMI would like to reach out to the same people who write erroneous things about Islam, as well as Christians who are open to intelligent discussions and who are more objective in tackling issues regarding Islam and Christianity.
We thank you for stopping by since we would like to do the same. We particularly would like for you to point out the difference between what Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi and the Islamic State are doing, that Muhammad himself and his followers didn't do, and his prescribe for his true orthodox followers who have engaged the same for 1600 years and to this very day.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4787.0
Quote from: relaxboy on August 01, 2016, 09:06:16 PMMaybe, we should start with a topical discussion. Let us discuss the status of Jesus, the son of Mary, and maybe Christians would like to tell me why you claim Jesus was God, when I have not seen any statement from Jesus that he ever claimed to be God or His son.
We have several threads in this very forum section, that discuss the divinity of Jesus Christ.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=571.0
However
you will not be well served by spending your time on that "mystery" as long as you must deny the whole subject of the Gospel as revealed through the prophets and witnesses in the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
To follow Muhammad alone through his heavily substituted, 23-year, 7th century record.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
Quote from: relaxboy on August 01, 2016, 09:06:16 PMLooking forward to your reply.... and hopefully a constructive discussion.
Regards
Me too, my friend, and welcome to the forum!
Please begin by pointing out what, in any of the above, you believe to be untrue.
I'll try to make my answers more brief from now on, but wanted to provide some background so you could understand where we are coming from.
If you are unfamiliar with Simple Machines software, and you want to multi-quote, the method I use is explained at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=39.0
Quote
Hello again to you my friend and welcome to the forum. May God bless you.
As Christians, the best and most important way for us to love our Muslim could-become-brethren, is to show them the truth. Our hatred of Islam stems from the fact that it is the exact opposite of that revealed through the love of the one true God, since Muhammad deceived his followers into denying the whole subject of the Gospel.
You see, while this is a bit of "tough love", from a Christian perspective Muhammad was a lying, antichrist, hater and bigot, who along with his followers, blaspheme our Lord and Savior by proclaiming such blasphemy as:
Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
While our Gospel proclaims:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Again the Quran:
Surah 9.29 Fight those.....(even if they are) of the People of the Book.....30 .....Christians call Christ the son of Allah. ..... Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
And again the Gospel:
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
Can you understand it is a 2-way street? Can you understand that Muhammad's 23-year 7th century record, is absolutely irreconcilable with the 1600 year record of the one true God of Jews and Christians, as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses? That the Quran is as opposite to the whole subject of the Gospel as Muhammad was the opposite of Jesus Christ?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm
Here are some of your former brethren that have come to know the love of the one true God through a relationship with Jesus Christ:
http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.php
I have asked this question to many Christians - Where did Jesus said he was god?
I always get the same reply - Christians quoting from Bible saying another person CLAIMING that Jesus was god.
That was a wrong answer.
At least, there were some Christians who made an effort to quote a line or two of Jesus' words which they pushed as his call of being divine.
Come on, show me something concrete. :)
Quote from: relaxboy on August 03, 2016, 12:04:15 AM
Quote
Hello again to you my friend and welcome to the forum. May God bless you.
As Christians, the best and most important way for us to love our Muslim could-become-brethren, is to show them the truth. Our hatred of Islam stems from the fact that it is the exact opposite of that revealed through the love of the one true God, since Muhammad deceived his followers into denying the whole subject of the Gospel.
You see, while this is a bit of "tough love", from a Christian perspective Muhammad was a lying, antichrist, hater and bigot, who along with his followers, blaspheme our Lord and Savior by proclaiming such blasphemy as:
Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
While our Gospel proclaims:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Again the Quran:
Surah 9.29 Fight those.....(even if they are) of the People of the Book.....30 .....Christians call Christ the son of Allah. ..... Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
And again the Gospel:
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
Can you understand it is a 2-way street? Can you understand that Muhammad's 23-year 7th century record, is absolutely irreconcilable with the 1600 year record of the one true God of Jews and Christians, as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses? That the Quran is as opposite to the whole subject of the Gospel as Muhammad was the opposite of Jesus Christ?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm
Here are some of your former brethren that have come to know the love of the one true God through a relationship with Jesus Christ:
http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.php
I have asked this question to many Christians - Where did Jesus said he was god?
I always get the same reply - Christians quoting from Bible saying another person CLAIMING that Jesus was god.
That was a wrong answer.
At least, there were some Christians who made an effort to quote a line or two of Jesus' words which they pushed as his call of being divine.
Come on, show me something concrete. :)
Revelation 1:8-18 "I am Alpha and Omega...
the Almighty"... I John... heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet Saying, "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last"...I turned to see the voice that spake with me... And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen"
OR more succinctly
Revelation 1:8-18 "
I am ...
the Almighty...
that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore"
The one voice speaking to John said that he was both the Almighty and the one who was alive, dead, and alive...
There it is. Do you believe now?
QuoteRevelation 1:8-18 "I am Alpha and Omega...the Almighty"... I John... heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet Saying, "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last"...I turned to see the voice that spake with me... And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, "Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen"
OR more succinctly
Revelation 1:8-18 "I am ...the Almighty...that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore"
The one voice speaking to John said that he was both the Almighty and the one who was alive, dead, and alive...
There it is. Do you believe now?
Just curious.
Rev 1:8
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,†declares the Lord God, “the one who is, who was, and who is coming, the
Almighty.â€
The "Almighty" here is what Christians believe as "God", "The Father" or "Jehovah"?
AND
“Stop being afraid! I am the first and the last, 18
the living one. I was deadâ€"but look!â€"I am alive forever and ever! I have the keys of Death and Hades." Rev 1:18
The above you believe to be "Jesus" or "The Son"
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1
My answer:
1. One is called "Almighty" and the other is "the living one". God is "Almighty" but Jesus is not called "the Amighty".
2. Are you trying to tell the readers here that based on Rev 1:8 and 1:18, that Jesus is both Almighty and the Living one above?
3. If so, are you saying that Jesus is God and the Father is God, hence
Jesus = Father?Think carefully before you reply. You may shake the whole trinity doctrine.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 03, 2016, 02:32:27 AM
QuoteRevelation 1:8-18 "I am Alpha and Omega...the Almighty"... I John... heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet Saying, "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last"...I turned to see the voice that spake with me... And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, "Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen"
OR more succinctly
Revelation 1:8-18 "I am ...the Almighty...that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore"
The one voice speaking to John said that he was both the Almighty and the one who was alive, dead, and alive...
There it is. Do you believe now?
Just curious.
Rev 1:8
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,†declares the Lord God, “the one who is, who was, and who is coming, the Almighty.â€
The "Almighty" here is what Christians believe as "God", "The Father" or "Jehovah"?
AND
“Stop being afraid! I am the first and the last, 18 the living one. I was deadâ€"but look!â€"I am alive forever and ever! I have the keys of Death and Hades." Rev 1:18
The above you believe to be "Jesus" or "The Son"
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1
My answer:
1. One is called "Almighty" and the other is "the living one". God is "Almighty" but Jesus is not called "the Amighty".
2. Are you trying to tell the readers here that based on Rev 1:8 and 1:18, that Jesus is both Almighty and the Living one above?
3. If so, are you saying that Jesus is God and the Father is God, hence Jesus = Father?
Think carefully before you reply. You may shake the whole trinity doctrine.
Why are you shifting the goal posts? Let's deal with just one issue at at time:
I just gave you concrete evidence that THE
ONE SPEAKING, whom John saw, claimed to be both the Almighty, and the one that liveth, was dead, and is now alive forevermore. There are not "one" and "the other" as you say. There is just one in this passage. The words in John's testimony make this very clear.
Now, keeping in the context of Revelation, EVERY subsequent use of this Greek word in the entire book of Revelation is referring to God (Rev 4:8, 11:17, 15:3, 16:7, 16:14, 19:6, 19:15, and 21:22)
It isn't going to get any more concrete than this. This is an unambiguous declaration. Yet, you still do not believe.
You say, "show me where Jesus claimed to be God". I show you that the one who lives, was dead, and lives forever more called himself the Almighty... and you say, "That isn't good enough". Well, that is all you will get.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 03, 2016, 02:32:27 AMMy answer:
1. One is called "Almighty" and the other is "the living one". God is "Almighty" but Jesus is not called "the Amighty".
As was pointed out to you, Jesus is called the Almighty in that verse.
Rev 1:7 Behold,
he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and
they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Here's Old Testament prophecy of His coming:
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 03, 2016, 02:32:27 AM2. Are you trying to tell the readers here that based on Rev 1:8 and 1:18, that Jesus is both Almighty and the Living one above?
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are of one essence or one being:
John 10:30
I and my Father are one.Jesus was how God chose to manifest or reveal Himself to mankind. A mediator between man and God that we would have a capacity to understand through the Spirit. Just as God revealed Himself in the flesh of a man to Abraham:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/god_manifest_flesh.htm#manifest_in_flesh
Quote from: relaxboy on August 03, 2016, 02:32:27 AM3. If so, are you saying that Jesus is God and the Father is God, hence Jesus = Father?
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Jesus was sacrificed for our sins, died and was resurrected from the dead, as He left this earth He proclaimed:
Mat 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Who has all power? Where do you suppose your Islamic blasphemy against Him will take you?
Quote from: relaxboy on August 03, 2016, 02:32:27 AM
Think carefully before you reply. You may shake the whole trinity doctrine.
My friend you are the one that needs to think. Do you really want to continue to reject the one true God as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses in His 1600 year record to mankind, to continue to follow the stand-alone false prophet Muhammad alone, through adopted, adapted and thinly veneered pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals?
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#index
Here is why people outside the Spirit of God are so hostile to truth:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
You see, one has to be of the Spirit before one can understand the things of the Spirit of God. Blessedly all we have to do is sincerely ask Him to reveal Himself to us:
http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.php
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
That's why I recommended that you begin by discussing
the fact that Muhammad's followers must reject the whole subject of the Gospel and deny and blaspheme the Son of God, since those subjects are specific and clear cut.
Now let's look at your thread title:
"A Muslim's Appeal to Christians - Know the Real Jesus in the Bible"
Here is how the "Real Jesus" revealed Himself "in the Bible":
Jhn 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.Jesus IS THE TRUTH. God gave us all the free will to choose life or death. Your choice, your fate.1Jo 5:12
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
We are desperate for you my friend. You have obviously never even read the Gospel. Why not read it now?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm
There's no shortage of poor bible-ignorant souls that, because they never bothered to seek out the truth in the scriptures, instead were fooled into the deception of Greek sophist styled entertaining, lying antichrist deceivers like Ahmed Deedat. He even fooled those that worship him into believing that the First Epistle of John suggests that Muhammad was not an antichrist but even a true prophet! Why not read that Epistle for yourself and judge as to whether Deedat's effort was nothing more than the dissimulation of Islamic taqiyyah?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/first_epistle_john.htm
You too can come to know the love of the one true God of the scriptures, through a relationship with Jesus Christ, as these former brethren of yours did:
http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.php
QuoteWhy are you shifting the goal posts? Let's deal with just one issue at at time:
I just gave you concrete evidence that THE ONE SPEAKING, whom John saw, claimed to be both the Almighty, and the one that liveth, was dead, and is now alive forevermore. There are not "one" and "the other" as you say. There is just one in this passage. The words in John's testimony make this very clear.
Now, keeping in the context of Revelation, EVERY subsequent use of this Greek word in the entire book of Revelation is referring to God (Rev 4:8, 11:17, 15:3, 16:7, 16:14, 19:6, 19:15, and 21:22)
It isn't going to get any more concrete than this. This is an unambiguous declaration. Yet, you still do not believe.
If Alpha and Omega are terms referring to Jehovah, God, or what you called the Father, Jesus NEVER CLAIMED he was the Alpha and Omega. Jesus may use other terms, first and the last (of what?), but not claiming the title of God, if Alpha and Omega is indeed a title of God.
The argument just collapsed.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 03, 2016, 09:34:24 PM
QuoteWhy are you shifting the goal posts? Let's deal with just one issue at at time:
I just gave you concrete evidence that THE ONE SPEAKING, whom John saw, claimed to be both the Almighty, and the one that liveth, was dead, and is now alive forevermore. There are not "one" and "the other" as you say. There is just one in this passage. The words in John's testimony make this very clear.
Now, keeping in the context of Revelation, EVERY subsequent use of this Greek word in the entire book of Revelation is referring to God (Rev 4:8, 11:17, 15:3, 16:7, 16:14, 19:6, 19:15, and 21:22)
It isn't going to get any more concrete than this. This is an unambiguous declaration. Yet, you still do not believe.
If Alpha and Omega are terms referring to Jehovah, God, or what you called the Father, Jesus NEVER CLAIMED he was the Alpha and Omega.
He wouldn't need to since the scriptures inform us of that fact, as I showed you. The Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the end. Coexistent with the Father from before the world was:
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 03, 2016, 09:34:24 PMJesus may use other terms, first and the last (of what?), but not claiming the title of God, if Alpha and Omega is indeed a title of God.
The argument just collapsed.
This is why you should have avoided this subject, since you don't even know what God's name is, or you would be able to understand that Jesus claimed His name repeatedly.
God is not named after the Quraish pagan's deity (most likely their moon god (http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/the_name_allah.htm#etymology_name_allah)) "Allah". God's name is YHWH or Yahweh (as occurs nearly 6,000 times in scripture). It means "I AM" or, "the existent one
Exd 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me,
What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses,
I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,
I AM hath sent me unto you.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=108.0
Jhn 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Before Abraham was, I am.
QuoteAs was pointed out to you, Jesus is called the Almighty in that verse.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
I bold the word "Amen" to help you understand that when John ended his statement, he will write "Amen". The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants[a] what must soon take place; he made
it known by sending his angel to his servant[c] John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it; for the time is near.
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia:
Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To him who loves us and freed[d] us from our sins by his blood, 6 and made[e] us to be a kingdom, priests serving[f] his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
7
Look! He is coming with the clouds;
every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and on his account all the tribes of the earth will wail.
So it is to be. Amen.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,†says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
Note John wrote "Amen" after what he heard. Not so for verse 8. Verse 8 is not about Jesus.
Quote
Here's Old Testament of His coming: Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Pls show me in the bible where Jesus was called the Everlasting Father?
Again, your proposal may shake the foundation of Christology if you claim Son =Father.
QuoteThe Father, Son and Holy Spirit are of one essence or one being:
John 10:30 I and my Father are one
.
The above has been quoted rather extensively by Christians to prove Jesus is God. My response:
1. If the word "one" makes you equate Jesus with the Father, and hence his divinity, then you might as well include the disciples as divine as well, for they are also "one" with the Father and Jesus.That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (John 17:21)2. So, 'one' above refers to 'one in objective' not 'one in divinity'.
3. Even so, the trinity does not teach you that the Son = the Father. Tell me I am wrong here.
You are hopelessly squandering your time as long as Muhammad forces you to deny the whole subject of the Gospel. You were already shown that a person outside the Spirit of God cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God. Yet you insist on continuing in your blasphemy against the one true God.
We've done what we can for you. The rest is between you and Jesus Christ.
As long as you deny the whole subject of the Gospel, and blaspheme His Son and the blood He shed for you, it doesn't matter what else you wish to believe or disbelieve.
And in typical Muslim fashion, ignoring all of those verses that are most important for you to recognize.
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm#crucifixion_fulfilled
Any surprise then that the people of the father of lies are taught that to confess that Jesus is the Son of God, or even to pray in Jesus' name, would be to commit the single most "heinous" and only unforgivable sin in the false prophet Muhammad's counter-Gospel, antichrist, anti-religion.
So tell us my friend, do you believe that each and every Christian throughout the entirety of the last nearly 2,000 years, is condemned forever for having lived and died and in a state of committing Muhammad's only unforgivable sin?
http://petewaldo.com/unforgivable_shirk.htm
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
Jhn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
And for antichrist liars?
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 03, 2016, 10:06:30 PM
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Pls allow me to explain what you would have already known but choose to keep a close eye to this.
God has sent to the world many prophets, each guiding and preaching the people to the One God. Jesus, was one of the prophets (as he himself claimed). So, during his ministry, he was the 'way' , the 'truth', the 'life' of the Jews during his time. There is nothing in the statement to show that Jesus was claiming divinity.
Moses, might be the way, the truth, the life, for people during Moses' time.
Muhammad (pbuh), is the 'truth', the 'way' and the 'life' for all who accept his as the last prophet.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 03, 2016, 10:51:27 PMMuhammad (pbuh), is the 'truth', the 'way' and the 'life' for all who accept his as the last prophet.
That's exactly right! You won't get an argument from me. "Muhammad (pbuh), is the 'truth', the 'way' and the 'life'
for all who accept his as the last prophet.", and it isn't like we weren't given fair warning.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
But Muhammad didn't even bother with the sheep's clothing but came as a ravening wolf!
Muhammad is a "messenger" for all who follow the father of lies, in the exact opposite of the Gospel. For all who must reject the record of the one true God of Jews and Christians, as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses in His 1600 year record, to follow Muhammad alone by denying the whole subject of the Gospel and that record of revelation of the one true God.
To follow a single man that is revealed through Islam's own books as as a mass-murdering, imperialistic conquering, little girl doing, female prisoner abusing, concubine fornicating, thief.
Compare Muhammad (whose corpse still lies rotting in its shallow grave) with the sinless Messiah, the Prince of Peace:
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm
At this point, I have not provided you with any lies.
I have discussed with you earnestly that you and many Christians are reading the bible but do not really understand what Jesus said.
You quoted the bible to prove Jesus was divine but overlooked other verses which completely cancel your views on the perceived divinity of Christ.
In fact, your views actually went against the basic framework of Christianity, if the verses quoted aimed to prove the Son = the Father.
I open my arms to all to discuss further on the non-existent of evidence for the divinity of Jesus, the son of Mary.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 03, 2016, 09:34:24 PM
QuoteWhy are you shifting the goal posts? Let's deal with just one issue at at time:
I just gave you concrete evidence that THE ONE SPEAKING, whom John saw, claimed to be both the Almighty, and the one that liveth, was dead, and is now alive forevermore. There are not "one" and "the other" as you say. There is just one in this passage. The words in John's testimony make this very clear.
Now, keeping in the context of Revelation, EVERY subsequent use of this Greek word in the entire book of Revelation is referring to God (Rev 4:8, 11:17, 15:3, 16:7, 16:14, 19:6, 19:15, and 21:22)
It isn't going to get any more concrete than this. This is an unambiguous declaration. Yet, you still do not believe.
Jesus NEVER CLAIMED he was the Alpha and Omega.
I just showed you the passage where He does exactly that... Alpha/Omega... alive, dead, alive forever more... same one speaking... John says so
There it is in black and white.
Quote from: ExMilitary on August 04, 2016, 12:28:07 AM
I just showed you the passage where He does exactly that... Alpha/Omega... alive, dead, alive forever more... same one speaking... John says so
There it is in black and white.
Pls see Post #12.
The words Alpha and Omega was not referring to Jesus. In fact, no where in the bible was Jesus using the term "Alpha and Omega".
Please do not use large font except for emphasis. Please do not use colored font uniformly.Quote from: relaxboy on August 03, 2016, 11:24:00 PM
At this point, I have not provided you with any lies.
Perhaps you mean you tried to avoid lying with intent (that is to say, engaging in taqiyyah (http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/global_war_against_truth.htm#dissimulation)).
But most of what you have put in this forum are in fact blasphemous lies from straight out of the pit of hell and the father of lies himself. Like your parroted preposterous claim of bible corruption (to the extent of becoming its exact opposite!) that I replied to at the following link (Please don't address it here or it will be going on in two places.).
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2023.msg19525#msg19525
Quote from: relaxboy on August 03, 2016, 11:24:00 PMI have discussed with you earnestly that you and many Christians are reading the bible but do not really understand what Jesus said.
And we have shown you that your conclusions are erroneous, with your not even knowing God's name. Meanwhile
you have ignored what Jesus said and
the whole subject of the Gospel. You have ignored the many verses presented that condemn the false prophet Muhammad and his followers. If you really believe yourself to be honest, let's start with Jesus' own prophecy of His crucifixion, death and resurrection:
Matthew 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, 18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, 19 And
shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.
Making reference to His own prophecy after He was risen from the dead:
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled,
which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets,
and [in] the psalms (http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm), concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and
thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
Quote from: relaxboy on August 03, 2016, 11:24:00 PMYou quoted the bible to prove Jesus was divine but overlooked other verses which completely cancel your views on the perceived divinity of Christ.
In fact, your views actually went against the basic framework of Christianity, if the verses quoted aimed to prove the Son = the Father.
I open my arms to all to discuss further on the non-existent of evidence for the divinity of Jesus, the son of Mary.[/size][/color]
The son of Mary
and THE only begotten Son of God. Unless, of course, you believe that Mary impregnated herself and remains the sole parent, as your post seems to indicate.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/jesus_the_son_of_god.htm
And again, you are squandering your time.
A person may still be saved as long as he has faith in the saving grace of the shed blood of the Lamb of God - the whole subject of the Gospel - even if he doesn't understand the deity of Christ. Which will continue to give you difficulty as long as you stand outside of the Spirit of God. So it is pointless for you to dwell on that subject.
Let's move on to the whole subject of the Gospel.And the scriptures may indicate that anyone who remains ignorant to, or doesn't understand the whole subject of the Gospel, may not be condemned for their ignorance:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for
where no law is, there is no transgression.
But you are in full knowledge of the truth, my friend, and yet you reject the truth of the Gospel to follow the false prophet Muhammad alone.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 04, 2016, 01:54:29 AM
Quote from: ExMilitary on August 04, 2016, 12:28:07 AM
I just showed you the passage where He does exactly that... Alpha/Omega... alive, dead, alive forever more... same one speaking... John says so
There it is in black and white.
Pls see Post #12.
The words Alpha and Omega was not referring to Jesus. In fact, no where in the bible was Jesus using the term "Alpha and Omega".
Seriously? I'll post it for you AGAIN:
Revelation 1:10-18
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me
a great voice...
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega,
the first and the last...
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me... And when I saw him... he... saying unto me...
I am the first and the last:
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore
Pay special attention here: We have "a great voice" that says "I am Alpha and Omega the first and the last". John says he turns to see this great voice (to see who is speaking) and he sees one like the Son of Man who
REPEATS "I am the first and the last"....
AND ALSO SAYS "I am he that liveth, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore."
Yeshua is the one who is speaking, here. He tells us this by identifying His birth, death, and resurrection.
To believe this passage is referring to someone else is lunacy.
Here, Yeshua claims:
1. Alpha and Omega
2. Beginning and End
3. The Almighty
This is concrete. How can anyone open your eyes if you can't even acknowledge what is
plainly written?
Quote from: ExMilitary on August 04, 2016, 03:23:22 PM
Seriously? I'll post it for you AGAIN:
Revelation 1:10-18
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice... Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last... And I turned to see the voice that spake with me... And when I saw him... he... saying unto me...I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore
I take the initiative to provide a link to the various bible translations of Revelation 1:11.http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-11.htm
Virtually all modern translations do not include in Rev 1:11 the following words that are in the KJV version of that verse:
"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and,"
The statement at Rev. 1:11 in the KJV and NKJV is recognized as spurious by most knowledgeable modern Bible scholars.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 04, 2016, 09:14:37 PM
Quote from: ExMilitary on August 04, 2016, 03:23:22 PM
Seriously? I'll post it for you AGAIN:
Revelation 1:10-18
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice... Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last... And I turned to see the voice that spake with me... And when I saw him... he... saying unto me...I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore
I take the initiative to provide a link to the various bible translations of Revelation 1:11.
http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-11.htm
Virtually all modern translations do not include in Rev 1:11 the following words that are in the KJV version of that verse:
"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and,"
The statement at Rev. 1:11 in the KJV and NKJV is recognized as spurious by most knowledgeable modern Bible scholars.
If you reject the KJV/NKJV, then
you are rejecting the same manuscripts approved by Muhammad in the 7th century. Even your own prophet told us to search THESE manuscripts... Certainly you aren't telling me Muhammad was wrong, are you?
Quote from: ExMilitary on August 05, 2016, 12:50:13 AM
Quote from: relaxboy on August 04, 2016, 09:14:37 PM
I take the initiative to provide a link to the various bible translations of Revelation 1:11.
http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-11.htm
Virtually all modern translations do not include in Rev 1:11 the following words that are in the KJV version of that verse:
"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and,"
The statement at Rev. 1:11 in the KJV and NKJV is recognized as spurious by most knowledgeable modern Bible scholars.
If you reject the KJV/NKJV, then you are rejecting the same manuscripts approved by Muhammad in the 7th century. Even your own prophet told us to search THESE manuscripts... Certainly you aren't telling me Muhammad was wrong, are you?
Incredulous.
You do not seem to mind if some bible scholars declared that the bible contain interpolations and spurious materials.
Instead of defending your scripture against this accusation, you turned your defence against Muhammad (pbuh) and claimed he told Muslims to search the KJV bible.
The KJV bible was produced in the 17th century and you think Muslims start searching the KJV bible in the 7th century. ;D
Anyway, back to the topic, do you agree that Jesus NEVER claimed to be the Alpha and Omega?
Relaxboy, do you understand deep in your heart, why you have been avoiding the whole subject of the Gospel like the plague? It is because Muhammad's counter-gospel, antichrist, anti-religion denies the whole subject of the Gospel - indeed the whole bible - since the Messiah was repeatedly prophesied in the Old Testament:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm
Either the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses is true, and Muhammad - as revealed through his stand-alone, exactly opposing, heavily abrogated, 23-year 7th century record - was a false prophet.
Or the prophets and witnesses as revealed through the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years, are false, with Jesus being chief among the false prophets. While Muhammad was a stand-alone true prophet, since he denied the whole subject of that 1600 year record of revelation of Yahweh to mankind, 500 years after the scriptures were complete.
One obviously can't believe in direct opposites. One must choose, my friend. Between the sinless Messiah, the Lamb of God, the Prince of Peace, or the sinful, mass murdering Muhammad as he is revealed through Islam's own books.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm
Quote from: relaxboy on August 03, 2016, 11:24:00 PMI have discussed with you earnestly that you and many Christians are reading the bible but do not really understand what Jesus said.
And again, we have shown you that your conclusions are erroneous, with your not even knowing God's name. Meanwhile
you have repeatedly ignored what Jesus said and
the whole subject of the Gospel. You have ignored the many verses presented that condemn the false prophet Muhammad and his followers. If you really believe yourself to be honest, let's move on to the whole subject of the Gospel, beginning with Jesus' own prophecy of His crucifixion, death and resurrection:
Matthew 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, 18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, 19 And
shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.
Jesus making reference to His own prior prophecy after He was risen from the dead:
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled,
which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets,
and [in] the psalms (http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm), concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and
thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
And His crucifixion in Old Testament prophecy, that Jesus made reference to, hundreds of years before crucifixion was ever even invented:
Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me:
they pierced my hands and my feet.18
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm
Confirmed as fulfilled prophecy:
Matthew 27:35 And
they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm#crucifixion_fulfilled
Quote from: relaxboy on August 05, 2016, 02:30:46 AM
Quote from: ExMilitary on August 05, 2016, 12:50:13 AM
If you reject the KJV/NKJV, then you are rejecting the same manuscripts approved by Muhammad in the 7th century. Even your own prophet told us to search THESE manuscripts... Certainly you aren't telling me Muhammad was wrong, are you?
Incredulous.
You do not seem to mind if some bible scholars declared that the bible contain interpolations and spurious materials.
Instead of defending your scripture against this accusation, you turned your defence against Muhammad (pbuh) and claimed he told Muslims to search the KJV bible.
The KJV bible was produced in the 17th century and you think Muslims start searching the KJV bible in the 7th century. ;D
It is you that misunderstood his reference to "manuscripts". Sadly, many pop-versions of the Bible are considerably compromised, often through omission. It is a profitable venture for guys to churn out yet another version of the largest selling book in the world, let alone sometimes in efforts to advance a false prophet they may follow, or false pop-doctrine they may hold.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4510.0
No surprise since this is just as was prophesied for these last days:
2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
The KJV remains the most accurate
English version we have. When ExMil made reference to "manuscripts" he was referring to the Texus Receptus Koine Greek manuscripts from which the King James is derived. When you wonder about a verse it is best to check it with a TR Koine Greek interlinear.
1:11 λεγούσηÏ, Ἐγώ á¼Î¹Î¼Î¹ Ï,,ὸ
Î' καὶ Ï,,ὸ
Ω, Ὃ Ï€ÏῶÏ,,οÏ, καὶ á½ á¼"σχαÏ,,οÏ, καὶ ὠβλέπειÏ, γÏάψον εἰÏ, βιβλίον καὶ πέμψον Ï,,αῖÏ, á¼ÎºÎºÎ»Î·Ïƒá½·Î±Î¹Ï, Ï,,αῖÏ, á¼Î½ Ἀσίᾳ, εἰÏ, á¼Ï†ÎµÏƒÎ¿Î½ καὶ εἰÏ, ΣμύÏναν καὶ εἰÏ, Î á½³Ïγαμον καὶ εἰÏ, ΘÏ...á½±Ï,,ειÏα καὶ εἰÏ, ΣάÏδειÏ, καὶ εἰÏ, Φιλαδέλφειαν καὶ εἰÏ, Λαοδίκειαν
If you, as I, can't read Koine Greek, click here for the word-by-word interlinear:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/1/11/t_conc_1168011
Click the next link to view more English (and Spanish) versions that include Alpha and Omega (The reason so many pop-versions leave it out is because they spring from a compromised pop-19th century Greek-English translation penned by only two English guys).
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/1/11/t_bibles_1168011
Quote from: relaxboy on August 05, 2016, 02:30:46 AMAnyway, back to the topic, do you agree that Jesus NEVER claimed to be the Alpha and Omega?
Whether Jesus claimed it, or it was written about Him, is irrelevant because all scripture was given by the inspiration of God.
It is the spirit of antichrist that drives you to put all of your effort into MISunderstanding, DENYing and DISbelieving, the record of revelation of the one true God of the scriptures. Your spirit of disbelief and denial is instilled in you by the father of lies through his "messenger".
Why not put some effort into genuinely try seeking out the truth?
Rev 1:7 Behold,
he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and
they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.You don't have to take our word for these things. Here's Matthew Henry's commentary for example:
"Let us think frequently upon the second coming of Christ. He shall come, to the terror of those who wound and crucify him by apostacy: he shall come, to the astonishment of the whole world of the ungodly. He is the Beginning and the End; all things are from him and for him; he is the Almighty; the same eternal and unchanged One."
Jde 1:15
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among
them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
You crucify Christ all over again through your Muhammadan antichrist blasphemy, as
you run away from the whole subject of the Gospel, while squandering your time on secondary details.
Relaxboy, do you understand deep in your heart, why you have been trying to keep yourself distracted with secondary subjects that you put your effort into not understanding,
in efforts to continue avoiding the clear-cut whole subject of the Gospel?
The reason is because Muhammad's counter-gospel, antichrist, anti-religion denies the whole subject of the Gospel. Indeed the whole bible, since the Messiah was repeatedly prophesied in the Old Testament:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm
Either all of the prophets and witnesses as revealed in the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind are true, and Muhammad as revealed through his stand-alone, exactly opposing, heavily abrogated, 23-year 7th century record was a false prophet.
Or all of the prophets and witnesses, as revealed through the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years, are false, with Jesus Christ being chief among the false prophets. While Muhammad is the sole, stand-alone, true prophet, since he denied the whole subject of that 1600 year record of revelation of Yahweh to mankind, 500 years after the scriptures were completed.
One obviously can't believe in direct opposites. One must choose, my friend. Between the sinless Messiah, the Lamb of God, the Prince of Peace, or the sinful, mass murdering, thieving, Muhammad as he is revealed through Islam's own books.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm
Quote from: relaxboy on August 03, 2016, 11:24:00 PMI have discussed with you earnestly that you and many Christians are reading the bible but do not really understand what Jesus said.
And again, we have shown you that your conclusions are erroneous, with your not even knowing God's name. Meanwhile
you have repeatedly ignored what Jesus said and
the whole subject of the Gospel. You have ignored the many verses presented that condemn the false prophet Muhammad and his followers as antichrists.
If you actually believe yourself to be honest, let's move forward with the whole subject of the Gospel, beginning with Jesus' own prophecy of His crucifixion, death and resurrection:Matthew 20:17
And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and
said unto them, 18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, 19 And
shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.
Following is Jesus making reference to His own prior prophecy after He was risen from the dead:
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled,
which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and
[in] the psalms (http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm), concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and
thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
Jesus made reference to Old Testament prophecies of His crucifixion that were penned hundreds of years before crucifixion was ever even invented:
Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me:
they pierced my hands and my feet.18
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm
Confirmed as fulfilled prophecy:
Matthew 27:35 And
they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm#crucifixion_fulfilled
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 05, 2016, 08:23:08 AM
Whether Jesus claimed it, or it was written about Him, is irrelevant because all scripture was given by the inspiration of God.
Another verse that is widely misinterpreted.
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
(2 Tim 3:15)
The passage is telling you that as a child, Timothy had the scriptures and that all the scriptures were given by the 'inspiration of God'.
The scripture during Timothy's time does not include any of the New Testament and even your gospels.
No wonder 2 Tim also talk about Jannes and Jambres, which you cannot find in your bible, but possible in the Jewish apocrypha.
I just want to point out the cherry picking method of some Christians.
See how desperate you are to hide from the truth to advance a lie? Any lie? That's because you are filled with the spirit of the father of lies. The scriptures point out that as a child he was familiar with the Old Testament scriptures, that Muhammadans reject. But that verse doesn't say that "all scripture that predated Timothy" is inspired by God. It says all scripture is inspired. Period. Let alone that the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke were in all likelihood in existence when that verse was penned. Plus the author knew the whole subject of the Gospel anyway, since he was contemporary to that period of history.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/new_testament.htm
Besides which we can know that scripture is inspired by God because, as my prior post points out, the crucifixion of Christ was a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. Indeed over 1/4 of the Bible is prophecy - with most of it fulfilled:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/bible_prophecy.htm
Neither Jews nor Christians consider the apocrypha inspired because of internal errors and such. In other words, it's not scripture. The Roman Catholics didn't even add the apocrypha to their Bible until 1546.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=902.0
You are squandering your time in order to run and hide from the truth. What did your post have to do with the whole subject of the Gospel, which is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Christ and salvation from dying in our sins through faith in His shed blood, as revealed through Old Testament prophecy and New Testament fulfillment? The whole subject of the Gospel - not a stretch to suggest the whole bible - that Muhammad denied.
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
Quote from: relaxboy on August 05, 2016, 02:30:46 AM
Quote from: ExMilitary on August 05, 2016, 12:50:13 AM
Quote from: relaxboy on August 04, 2016, 09:14:37 PM
I take the initiative to provide a link to the various bible translations of Revelation 1:11.
http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-11.htm
Virtually all modern translations do not include in Rev 1:11 the following words that are in the KJV version of that verse:
"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and,"
The statement at Rev. 1:11 in the KJV and NKJV is recognized as spurious by most knowledgeable modern Bible scholars.
If you reject the KJV/NKJV, then you are rejecting the same manuscripts approved by Muhammad in the 7th century. Even your own prophet told us to search THESE manuscripts... Certainly you aren't telling me Muhammad was wrong, are you?
Incredulous.
You do not seem to mind if some bible scholars declared that the bible contain interpolations and spurious materials.
Instead of defending your scripture against this accusation, you turned your defence against Muhammad (pbuh) and claimed he told Muslims to search the KJV bible.
The KJV bible was produced in the 17th century and you think Muslims start searching the KJV bible in the 7th century. ;D
You've still not answered my question. Reread it. I said
MANUSCRIPTS, not the KJV Bible. Do you understand the difference between an original manuscript and a translation (such as the KJV)? I am quoting to you from the KJV which is based on the MANUSCRIPTS that Muhammad said should be searched.
You have one of two choices at this point, either:
1. You agree that the KJV is based on the correct manuscripts
2. You disagree and thereby call Muhammad a false prophet as he said to search these manuscripts
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 08, 2016, 07:47:16 AM
See how desperate you are to hide from the truth to advance a lie? Any lie? That's because you are filled with the spirit of the father of lies. The scriptures point out that as a child he was familiar with the Old Testament scriptures, that Muhammadans reject. But that verse doesn't say that "all scripture that predated Timothy" is inspired by God. It says all scripture is inspired. Period. Let alone that the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke were in all likelihood in existence when that verse was penned. Plus the author knew the whole subject of the Gospel anyway, since he was contemporary to that period of history.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/new_testament.htm
You were absolutely right when you wrote that Timothy only knew about the OT and maybe other aprocrypha when he was a child. To him, these were inspired.
Timothy never knew of any NT scriptures, that is for sure. If he thought that scriptures were inspired, it had to be the scriptures he knew... certainly not the NT. Otherwise, he would definitely spoke of a coming Book that talks about the coming Christ. If you have the latter, show me.
This is a more acceptable approach.Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 08, 2016, 07:47:16 AM
Besides which we can know that scripture is inspired by God because, as my prior post points out, the crucifixion of Christ was a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. Indeed over 1/4 of the Bible is prophecy - with most of it fulfilled:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/bible_prophecy.htm
I can help to show you that many of these 'prophecies' are actually non-prophecies in the first place, or were not fulfilled in Christ.
Set up a new post and we discuss earnestly.
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 08, 2016, 07:47:16 AM
Neither Jews nor Christians consider the apocrypha inspired because of internal errors and such. In other words, it's not scripture. The Roman Catholics didn't even add the apocrypha to their Bible until 1546.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=902.0
I know. This does not helpyour position.
If Timothy, in his childhood, knew the scriptures (which could well be the OT and other books read by the Jews at that time), and believed that the scriptures were inspired, then surely it would be a grave mistake for the Church or later Christians to remove these scriptures and termed them non-canonical.
Does it make you wonder that Paul was discussing with Timothy on what he believed (about Jannes and Jambres), and you do not find that story anywhere in your scripture.
It makes me smile to read that you accused Muslims of rejecting your scripture and yet you Christians have the joy of taking way scriptures that Timothy and early Christians believed.
QuoteYou've still not answered my question. Reread it. I said MANUSCRIPTS, not the KJV Bible. Do you understand the difference between an original manuscript and a translation (such as the KJV)? I am quoting to you from the KJV which is based on the MANUSCRIPTS that Muhammad said should be searched.
You have one of two choices at this point, either:
1. You agree that the KJV is based on the correct manuscripts
2. You disagree and thereby call Muhammad a false prophet as he said to search these manuscripts
Some points which you need to clarify:
1. What 'manuscripts' are you referring to? Are they Greek, Hebrew or Arabic?
2. Pls prove to me that the KJV bible is based on these 'manuscripts' which you claimed Muhammad (pbuh) said 'should be searched'
What Muhammad (pbuh) informed the Muslims was that the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) should searched their scripture and they will find the Truth.
Essentially, it is the same as I told you before. The bible contains the message of the Injeel and Torah, revealed by God. The Bible also contains the writings of men which they claimed to be from God.
The Quran came to CONFIRMED the earliest scripture and to protect them.
Hence, as I said, the true Injeel and Torah, in the BIble, will always be there and you can confirm the truth of the Bible by checking with the Quran.
“To thee (Muhammad) We sent the scripture(Qur'an) in truth confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety. Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel -- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which IS before it and guidance and good news for the believers.†(Quran 2:97)
Again, the confusion among Christians is that they think we approve the BIBLE, when the Quran said God will protect the true Injeel and Torah, which can be found in the OT and Gospels.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 09, 2016, 09:58:13 PM
QuoteYou've still not answered my question. Reread it. I said MANUSCRIPTS, not the KJV Bible. Do you understand the difference between an original manuscript and a translation (such as the KJV)? I am quoting to you from the KJV which is based on the MANUSCRIPTS that Muhammad said should be searched.
You have one of two choices at this point, either:
1. You agree that the KJV is based on the correct manuscripts
2. You disagree and thereby call Muhammad a false prophet as he said to search these manuscripts
Some points which you need to clarify:
1. What 'manuscripts' are you referring to? Are they Greek, Hebrew or Arabic?
2. Pls prove to me that the KJV bible is based on these 'manuscripts' which you claimed Muhammad (pbuh) said 'should be searched'
What Muhammad (pbuh) informed the Muslims was that the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) should searched their scripture and they will find the Truth.
Essentially, it is the same as I told you before. The bible contains the message of the Injeel and Torah, revealed by God. The Bible also contains the writings of men which they claimed to be from God.
The Quran came to CONFIRMED the earliest scripture and to protect them.
Hence, as I said, the true Injeel and Torah, in the BIble, will always be there and you can confirm the truth of the Bible by checking with the Quran.
“To thee (Muhammad) We sent the scripture(Qur'an) in truth confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety. Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel -- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which IS before it and guidance and good news for the believers.†(Quran 2:97)
Again, the confusion among Christians is that they think we approve the BIBLE, when the Quran said God will protect the true Injeel and Torah, which can be found in the OT and Gospels.
The Latin Vulgate was circulated as the official translation of the Roman empire a couple of hundred years before your prophet. This included North Africa, the Sinai Peninsula, Israel, etc...
The Latin Vulgate says "beginning and end", "Alpha and Omega"...
Other manuscripts... from the North Africa region... Alpha and Omega...
This is what the "People's Book" said when Muhammad encouraged them to search it.
The Alpha and Omega is DIRECTLY connected to the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua. Alpha and Omega = the one who lives, was dead, and now is alive forevermore.
You claim that Muhammad never encouraged the BIBLE, just the Torah and the Gospel. Sura 19:30 states that Isa was given the Gospel. In Sura 3:3, Allah confirms that the BOOK being used by the Christians is previous scripture "He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel"
Muhammad never dismisses the Bible even though the WHOLE thing (including Revelation) was in widespread use throughout the entire area. No, Muhammad merely tells Christians to not "exceed your religion" and say that Allah has a partner... Why didn't he directly tell Christians to stop reading their Bible? It was "their religion"...
Because he knew almost nothing of what was actually contained in the Bible... Yet he claimed ALL of it to be true.
John (in Revelation) the Disciple of Yeshua claims that Yeshua gave him the message of Revelation. Therefore Revelation is (part of) the Gospel.
So... Now that I've shown you, what do you say to me who reads this passage in Muhammad's recommended reading list, and it says that Yeshua is the Alpha and Omega?
Quote from: relaxboy on August 09, 2016, 09:19:59 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 08, 2016, 07:47:16 AM
See how desperate you are to hide from the truth to advance a lie? Any lie? That's because you are filled with the spirit of the father of lies. The scriptures point out that as a child he was familiar with the Old Testament scriptures, that Muhammadans reject. But that verse doesn't say that "all scripture that predated Timothy" is inspired by God. It says all scripture is inspired. Period. Let alone that the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke were in all likelihood in existence when that verse was penned. Plus the author knew the whole subject of the Gospel anyway, since he was contemporary to that period of history.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/new_testament.htm
You were absolutely right when you wrote that Timothy only knew about the OT and maybe other aprocrypha when he was a child. To him, these were inspired.
Timothy never knew of any NT scriptures, that is for sure. If he thought that scriptures were inspired, it had to be the scriptures he knew... certainly not the NT.
Timothy LIVED the new covenant! He was contemporary to it!
Quote from: relaxboy on August 09, 2016, 09:19:59 PMOtherwise, he would definitely spoke of a coming Book that talks about the coming Christ. If you have the latter, show me.
His book was penned in around 61-67 AD. Jesus Christ - the Messiah - had already come and gone by the time he penned his book, as even Islam would teach, through Muhammad's big fat gnostic lie (that he most likely got from Waraqa bin Naufal) that it only appeared as though Jesus was crucified.
http://www.petewaldo.com/simon_magnus_gnostics_ebionites_islam.htm#basilides
Quote from: relaxboy on August 09, 2016, 09:19:59 PMThis is a more acceptable approach.[/size]
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 08, 2016, 07:47:16 AM
Besides which we can know that scripture is inspired by God because, as my prior post points out, the crucifixion of Christ was a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. Indeed over 1/4 of the Bible is prophecy - with most of it fulfilled:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/bible_prophecy.htm
I can help to show you that many of these 'prophecies' are actually non-prophecies in the first place, or were not fulfilled in Christ.
Set up a new post and we discuss earnestly.
Now look at who wants to copy and paste things he is clueless about, as he accused when first coming to the forum. Or are you going to pretend they were your own conclusions from so many years of study of the New and Old Testaments? And all for what? To continue blaspheming THE Son of of the one true God Yahweh, and rejecting the blood He shed, to save you from dying in your sins.
If you aren't engaging in taqiyyah and actually do want to discuss earnestly, lets start with this Psalms 22, that Jesus made reference to after He was crucified (then we will move on to Isaiah 53, the two prophecies that have brought opened so many Jews eyes throughout the Christian era). The chapter may be found at this link:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm
By way of information:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/bible_prophecy.htm
"Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made concerning the Messiah.
The estimates were worked out by twelve different classes representing some 600 university students.The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that men had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy.
They made their estimates conservative enough so that there was finally unanimous agreement even among the most skeptical students.However Professor Stoner then took their estimates, and made them even more conservative.
He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make their own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he submitted his figures for review to a committee of the American Scientific Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented (Peter Stoner, Science Speaks, Chicago: Moody Press, 1969, 4).
For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem Ephrathah, Stoner and his students determined the average population of BETHLEHEM from the time of Micah to the present; then they divided it by the average population of the earth during the same period.
They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was one in 300,000, (or one in 2.8 x 10^5 - rounded),
After examining only eight different prophecies (Idem, 106), they conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight prophecies was one in 10^17.To illustrate how large the number 10^17 IS (a figure with 17 zeros), Stoner gave this illustration:
If you mark one of ten tickets, and place all the tickets in a hat, and thoroughly stir them, and then ask a blindfolded man to draw one, his chance of getting the right ticket is one in ten.
Suppose that we take 10^17 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They'll cover all of the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would've had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man, from their day to the present time, providing they wrote them in their own wisdom (Idem, 106-107)."
Quote from: relaxboy on August 09, 2016, 09:19:59 PM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 08, 2016, 07:47:16 AM
Neither Jews nor Christians consider the apocrypha inspired because of internal errors and such. In other words, it's not scripture. The Roman Catholics didn't even add the apocrypha to their Bible until 1546.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=902.0
I know. This does not helpyour position.
It doesn't change our position at all. What it does is reflect poorly on Roman Catholics to have added pre-Christian era books to their Bible, that neither Jews nor Christians considerd inspired, nearly 15 centuries after the scriptures were complete.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 09, 2016, 09:19:59 PMIf Timothy, in his childhood, knew the scriptures (which could well be the OT and other books read by the Jews at that time), and believed that the scriptures were inspired, then surely it would be a grave mistake for the Church or later Christians to remove these scriptures and termed them non-canonical.
There was a lot of stuff written both by Jewish sages and early Christian fathers, that demonstrated itself to be uninspired, which Jews and Christians were intelligent and inspired enough to be able to recognize. None of it, however, reaches the level of fraud and dishonesty that the 16th century Muhammadan forgery of the so-called "Gospel of Barnabas" does - knowingly flat out lying (taqiyyah) with full intent - that so many even Muhammadan Imams have been fooled by, that have obviously never even read it.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_barnabas.htm
Muhammadans on the other hand, believe in a book penned by a single guy - that not a single person ever heard his Allah give a "revelation" to (because it was largely plagiarized from Jabr, Waraqa and others) - that over the short span of just 23 years of recitations contained so much self-contradiction by his alter-ego "Allah", that a whopping 71 out of only 114 surahs are subject to abrogation.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
Let alone all the Muhammadan fictional tripe that was created and put to the pen in the 7th to 10th centuries AD, that masquerades as thousands of years of pre-Islamic history, without reference to any actual historical or archaeological record that preceded the 5th century AD. In other words, pure poppycock.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca_islam.htm
Quote from: relaxboy on August 09, 2016, 09:19:59 PMDoes it make you wonder that Paul was discussing with Timothy on what he believed (about Jannes and Jambres), and you do not find that story anywhere in your scripture.
That a couple of magicians existed doesn't have anything to do whether the apocrypha is inspired or not. To say that writings are uninspired, doesn't mean that they may not contain some things that are true.
It is interesting though, that you mention those two magicians, since Timothy used those Godless men as an example to describe liars that contend against the truth, just like Muhammad did and you do:
2Ti 3:7
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 09, 2016, 09:19:59 PMIt makes me smile to read that you accused Muslims of rejecting your scripture........
Don't be silly. It isn't an accusation. Nor is it about you and I.
It is a matter of absolute fact that Muslims reject not just our scriptures, but the whole subject of them, because the stand-alone antichrist false prophet you follow denied the whole subject of the Gospel.Quote from: relaxboy on August 09, 2016, 09:19:59 PM....... and yet you Christians have the joy of taking way scriptures that Timothy and early Christians believed.[/size]
See what a foolish and easily exposed lie you believe? That's because you follow the father of lies. From the Jewish Encyclopedia:
"The Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) consists of a collection of writings dating from approximately the 13th - 3rd centuries BCE. These books were included in the Jewish canon by the Talmudic sages at Yavneh around the end of the first century CE, after the destruction of the Second Temple. However, there are many other Jewish writings from the Second Temple Period which were excluded from the Tanakh; these are known as the Apocrypha and the Pseudepigrapha."
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/apocrypha.html
The apocrypha is not scripture according to Jews and Christians, because their own internal evidence demonstrates they were not inspired. Jews and Christians share our old covenant scriptures. Jews exclude the Apocrypha from their Tanakh as being uninspired. The old covenant scriptures make up the largest part of the Christian Bible.
Quote from: ExMilitary on August 10, 2016, 02:31:07 AM
The Latin Vulgate was circulated as the official translation of the Roman empire a couple of hundred years before your prophet. This included North Africa, the Sinai Peninsula, Israel, etc...
The Latin Vulgate says "beginning and end", "Alpha and Omega"...
Other manuscripts... from the North Africa region... Alpha and Omega...
This is what the "People's Book" said when Muhammad encouraged them to search it.
The Alpha and Omega is DIRECTLY connected to the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua. Alpha and Omega = the one who lives, was dead, and now is alive forevermore.
My response:
1. Are you implying that the available bible during Muhammad's time is in Greek? The Christians in Medina read Greek or Arabic? Which Arabic bible, if there was any?
2. The Alpha and Omega was linked to the 'Almighty' or 'Yahweh' or what the Christians called 'the Father'.
If you claim Alpha and Omega refers to Jesus, 'the Son' as well, and because of that you claim Jesus was God, then for another time I will ask you to confirm:
Are you saying that Jesus = Father, the Son = the Father??
If not, what are you trying to tell the readers here? Quote from: ExMilitary on August 10, 2016, 02:31:07 AM
You claim that Muhammad never encouraged the BIBLE, just the Torah and the Gospel. Sura 19:30 states that Isa was given the Gospel. In Sura 3:3, Allah confirms that the BOOK being used by the Christians is previous scripture "He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel"
Muhammad never dismisses the Bible even though the WHOLE thing (including Revelation) was in widespread use throughout the entire area. No, Muhammad merely tells Christians to not "exceed your religion" and say that Allah has a partner... Why didn't he directly tell Christians to stop reading their Bible? It was "their religion"...
Because he knew almost nothing of what was actually contained in the Bible... Yet he claimed ALL of it to be true.
Indeed, the Quran asks the Jews and Christians to look/search your book, and the Gospels and Torah in your bible, you will find the Truth which is the same Truth that can be found in the Quran.
I thought this was a wonderful message to bring Christians to the right path. READ what you have been reading, and you will find the TRUTH in your bible.
You know, there are Christians who actually become Muslims after reading the Bible and see the similarity with the Quran.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 10, 2016, 08:49:05 PM
Quote from: ExMilitary on August 10, 2016, 02:31:07 AM
The Latin Vulgate was circulated as the official translation of the Roman empire a couple of hundred years before your prophet. This included North Africa, the Sinai Peninsula, Israel, etc...
The Latin Vulgate says "beginning and end", "Alpha and Omega"...
Other manuscripts... from the North Africa region... Alpha and Omega...
This is what the "People's Book" said when Muhammad encouraged them to search it.
The Alpha and Omega is DIRECTLY connected to the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua. Alpha and Omega = the one who lives, was dead, and now is alive forevermore.
My response:
1. Are you implying that the available bible during Muhammad's time is in Greek? The Christians in Medina read Greek or Arabic? Which Arabic bible, if there was any?
The Roman empire extended into Medina prior to the 7th century. The LATIN Vulgate was produced around the 4th century and was circulated throughout the empire. The official language of the empire was Latin, but many, many people spoke Greek. Medina, itself, had Jews (and Christian converts) living in the city. Many languages were spoken: Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin, Greek, etc.
To say that the scriptures were in one language is silly. Just like any other book (take the Quran for instance) it is made so the people can understand it. However, the official translation, based on Greek manuscripts from the middle east, was the Latin Vulgate.
In the Latin Vulgate: Alpha and Omega = lives, was dead, and is alive forever more
Quote
2. The Alpha and Omega was linked to the 'Almighty' or 'Yahweh' or what the Christians called 'the Father'.
If you claim Alpha and Omega refers to Jesus, 'the Son' as well, and because of that you claim Jesus was God, then for another time I will ask you to confirm:
Are you saying that Jesus = Father, the Son = the Father??
If not, what are you trying to tell the readers here?[/size][/color]
One thing at a time. You claimed that Jesus never said he was God. Do you accept that Yeshua referred to himself as Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, Almighty - in the very book/manuscripts that the "people of the book" were using (either reading or being taught from) during Muhammad's lifetime?
No surprise you ignored my post, and your own expressed desire to discuss prophecy, when I suggested we begin with Psalms 22.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 10, 2016, 08:49:05 PMMy response:
1. Are you implying that the available bible during Muhammad's time is in Greek? The Christians in Medina read Greek or Arabic? Which Arabic bible, if there was any?
As far as you're concerned, your response is completely irrelevant. Since Muhammad's "Allah" is supposed to have been responsible for each and every word in the Quran,
all that matters is that "Allah" knew what was in the Gospel, when he said "Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein." As cannot be disputed, the whole subject of the Gospel was the same in Muhammad's 7th century, as it was in the 1st century and remains today.
So what your words suggest is that
Muhammad's "Allah" was too illiterate or ignorant, to know what was in the Gospel during the 7th century, before blundering into making what you can only view as such a foolish recommendation.
Our mistake is that we tend to forget that Muslims believe "Allah" authored the Quran, since we know through the evidence that the false prophet Muhammad's "revelations" were little more than self-contradictory, greedy self-service through his alter-ego (http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3775.msg15453#msg15453) (the Arabian pagan's) "Allah", except those that were otherwise inspired by unclean spirits and demons, as well as folks around him like Jabr, Waraqa and Tubba and formerly nominally Christian and Jewish wives and concubines, that were responsible for the "revelations" from his alter-ego "Allah":
Sura 16.103 We know indeed that they say,
"It is a man that teaches him." [that would be a reference to Jabr] The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=452.0
Quote from: ExMilitary on August 10, 2016, 09:29:38 PM
The Latin Vulgate was circulated as the official translation of the Roman empire a couple of hundred years before your prophet. This included North Africa, the Sinai Peninsula, Israel, etc...
The Latin Vulgate says "beginning and end", "Alpha and Omega"...
Other manuscripts... from the North Africa region... Alpha and Omega...
This is what the "People's Book" said when Muhammad encouraged them to search it.
The Alpha and Omega is DIRECTLY connected to the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua. Alpha and Omega = the one who lives, was dead, and now is alive forevermore.
There is no evidence of an Arabic Bible at Mecca and Medina in the 7th century. Do your research or prove to me otherwise.
In fact, I am not surprised if the 'bible' of the Jews and Christians at that time was not exactly the Bible you have today.Quote
2. The Alpha and Omega was linked to the 'Almighty' or 'Yahweh' or what the Christians called 'the Father'.
If you claim Alpha and Omega refers to Jesus, 'the Son' as well, and because of that you claim Jesus was God, then for another time I will ask you to confirm:
Are you saying that Jesus = Father, the Son = the Father??
If not, what are you trying to tell the readers here?[/size][/color]
I will be surprised if you say that the Son = the Father.
However, you have not made your position clear. Quote
One thing at a time. You claimed that Jesus never said he was God. Do you accept that Yeshua referred to himself as Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, Almighty - in the very book/manuscripts that the "people of the book" were using (either reading or being taught from) during Muhammad's lifetime?
Jesus NEVER claimed the title, Alpha and Omega.
I do not think there was an Arabic bible at the time of Muhammad (pbuh).
There was also no record of the Christians at Mecca/Medina at that time who referred to Jesus as the Alpha and Omega. Show me, otherwise.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 11, 2016, 05:15:17 AM
Quote from: ExMilitary on August 10, 2016, 09:29:38 PM
The Latin Vulgate was circulated as the official translation of the Roman empire a couple of hundred years before your prophet. This included North Africa, the Sinai Peninsula, Israel, etc...
The Latin Vulgate says "beginning and end", "Alpha and Omega"...
Other manuscripts... from the North Africa region... Alpha and Omega...
This is what the "People's Book" said when Muhammad encouraged them to search it.
The Alpha and Omega is DIRECTLY connected to the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua. Alpha and Omega = the one who lives, was dead, and now is alive forevermore.
There is no evidence of an Arabic Bible at Mecca and Medina in the 7th century. Do your research or prove to me otherwise.
In fact, I am not surprised if the 'bible' of the Jews and Christians at that time was not exactly the Bible you have today.
Of course it is, since we have repeatedly shown that
the whole subject of the Gospel was necessarily the same in the 7th century, as it is today. There was, and is, only one Gospel.
https://youtu.be/sJ9X6MQS8LM
(http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/0ec90050.png)
But since you are expected to believe that Muhammad's "Allah" is responsible for each and every word in the Quran,
all that matters as far as Muhammad's followers are concerned, is that "Allah" knew what was in the Gospel when he recommended "Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein." So through your pointless quibbling about what Bible was available in the 7th century SW Arabian desert, you are tacitly suggesting that
Muhammad's "Allah" was rendered so ignorant by not having read a copy in Mecca or Medina, that he didn't even know what was in that widely disseminated Gospel, before proclaiming - what you can only view as - such a foolish blunder.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 11, 2016, 05:15:17 AM
Quote from: ExMilitary on August 10, 2016, 09:29:38 PM
The Latin Vulgate was circulated as the official translation of the Roman empire a couple of hundred years before your prophet. This included North Africa, the Sinai Peninsula, Israel, etc...
The Latin Vulgate says "beginning and end", "Alpha and Omega"...
Other manuscripts... from the North Africa region... Alpha and Omega...
This is what the "People's Book" said when Muhammad encouraged them to search it.
The Alpha and Omega is DIRECTLY connected to the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua. Alpha and Omega = the one who lives, was dead, and now is alive forevermore.
There is no evidence of an Arabic Bible at Mecca and Medina in the 7th century. Do your research or prove to me otherwise.
Do you even comprehend what I have typed? I never said that there was an Arabic Bible in the 7th century.
As a matter of fact (as Pete pointed out here: http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=5120.msg19564#msg19564) it is the people of the Gospel that are to judge what is revealed in the Gospels.
The point I'm making (and continue to make) is that
the version of the Gospels that THEY had did, in fact, equate Alpha and Omega to Yeshua.
It doesn't matter if there was a Bible in Arabic or not... it isn't even relevant to the argument. You said that Jesus never claimed to be God.
I've amply demonstrated that THIS VERY THING is recorded in the writings of the Christians prior to Muhammad, was circulated in the area prior to Muhammad, and existed both in written fashion, and oral fashion when Muhammad was alive.... written proof to you, and you respond with "there is no Arabic bible"? I'm thinking you just can't comprehend what I am showing you.
You keep claiming that the written word has been altered. (i.e. saying Jesus never claimed to be God) It has not. This text was part of the main circulation of scripture, worldwide, well before Muhammad. Again, as Pete pointed out, it is the SAME as it has always been since even BEFORE the 7th century, into the 7th century, and will continue to be forever.
Quote
I do not think there was an Arabic bible at the time of Muhammad (pbuh).
Again, that is not relevant. It is merely enough to prove that the scriptures were being circulated among the Christians.
Quote
There was also no record of the Christians at Mecca/Medina at that time who referred to Jesus as the Alpha and Omega. Show me, otherwise.
[/size]
I've done just that. Revelation was contained within the scriptures in the churches. The Latin Vulgate (the "official" translation at the time), along with it's underlying GREEK manuscripts say so.
Are you just not comprehending what I'm telling you?
Quote from: ExMilitary on August 11, 2016, 05:27:07 PMYou said that Jesus never claimed to be God. I've amply demonstrated that THIS VERY THING is recorded in the writings of the Christians prior to Muhammad, was circulated in the area prior to Muhammad, and existed both in written fashion, and oral fashion when Muhammad was alive.... written proof to you, and you respond with "there is no Arabic bible"? I'm thinking you just can't comprehend what I am showing you.
You would think he might have gotten the drift, back when I pointed out who has all power on heaven and earth. But rather than reply he ran away from it instead. Typical Muslim non-responsiveness because neither Muhammad nor Islam can stand in the light of truth:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=5120.msg19510#msg19510
Mat 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
QuoteOf course it is, since we have repeatedly shown that the whole subject of the Gospel was necessarily the same in the 7th century, as it is today. There was, and is, only one Gospel.
https://youtu.be/sJ9X6MQS8LM
Right. ExMilitary agreed there was no Arabic Bible at Mecca/Medina during Muhammad's time.
On the other hand, Christians and Jews at that area might have other competing scriptures and beliefs than the mainstream Judaism and Christianity. There were already many other Gospels around at that time, in the Hijaz and the surrounding area, and possibly in Christendom in the 7th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-canonical_books_referenced_in_the_Bible
It is rather dishonest to claim that There was, and is, only one Gospel
QuoteYou would think he might have gotten the drift, back when I pointed out who has all power on heaven and earth. But rather than reply he ran away from it instead. Typical Muslim non-responsiveness because neither Muhammad nor Islam can stand in the light of truth:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=5120.msg19510#msg19510
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
The better translation is 'authority' rather than 'power'.
Then Jesus approached them and told them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Essentially, the verse was saying that Jesus was given 'authority' by God, not that the 'authority' was his in the first place.
Jesus cannot do anything without the consent/authority of God. Jesus himself said he was powerless without God' help:
“I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. (John 5:30)
"...the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)
There you go: Jesus cannot be a god because he clearly said Gid is greater than Jesus. QED
Quote from: relaxboy on August 11, 2016, 08:43:15 PM
QuoteOf course it is, since we have repeatedly shown that the whole subject of the Gospel was necessarily the same in the 7th century, as it is today. There was, and is, only one Gospel.
https://youtu.be/sJ9X6MQS8LM
Right. ExMilitary agreed there was no Arabic Bible at Mecca/Medina during Muhammad's time.
That is not what I said. Why are you trying to say that I did?
You accused me of saying that there were Arabic Bibles and challenged me to prove it. (Prove something I never claimed). I never even mentioned Arabic Bibles... that is some idea you (somehow) came up with... What I said was that
your accusation (that I said there were Arabic Bibles) was false, AND completely irrelevant to the argument!
Stop hearing what you want to hear, and READ what I've written!
Quote
On the other hand, Christians and Jews at that area might have other competing scriptures and beliefs than the mainstream Judaism and Christianity. There were already many other Gospels around at that time, in the Hijaz and the surrounding area, and possibly in Christendom in the 7th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-canonical_books_referenced_in_the_Bible
It is rather dishonest to claim that There was, and is, only one Gospel[/size]
Stop shifting the goalposts. Stay focused on the task at hand.
That wikipedia link you provided... you do realize that what it is talking about are allusions to other books that aren't in the Bible... it has nothing to do with the veracity of the CANONIZED books that were in circulation in the 7th century. NAMELY REVELATION... which states Alpha and Omega = alive, dead, alive forevermore.
Even the KJV references extracanonical books! WE already know this. This has nothing to do with a different Gospel.
Your argument is similar to calling the Torah/Old Testament non-Jewish because it mentions Philistines, Babylonians, and Assyrians.
I'm beginning to think that either:
1. You truly aren't comprehending
2. You are practicing taqiyyah
Because what you are presenting is nonsensical... completely disjointed in thought.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 11, 2016, 09:00:39 PM
QuoteYou would think he might have gotten the drift, back when I pointed out who has all power on heaven and earth. But rather than reply he ran away from it instead. Typical Muslim non-responsiveness because neither Muhammad nor Islam can stand in the light of truth:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=5120.msg19510#msg19510
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
The better translation is 'authority' rather than 'power'.
Then Jesus approached them and told them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
That's a poorer translation that basically says the same thing. And here's the following verse:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Yet even after recognizing that Jesus has
all authority in heaven and on earth,
you deny and blaspheme the very Son of God who has all authority in heaven and on earth, to follow
a single 7th century mass murdering reprobate that has no authority at all, who didn't even know whether he was going to heaven or hell, and whose corpse still lies rotting in its shallow grave.
046.009 “Say: "I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the messengers,
nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear."
But based on his reprehensible behavior, I don't doubt Muhammad knew exactly where he was going. Muhammad even lying about not bringing a new-fangled doctrine, even as he was denying the whole subject of the Gospel and blaspheming the Son of God. But then Waraqa was likely responsible for that denial:
http://www.petewaldo.com/simon_magnus_gnostics_ebionites_islam.htm#ebionites
1 John 2:22 .....
He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.....
Your choice, your fate. After being shown the truth in this forum, you will never be able to plead ignorance, when you stand in judgment before the very Son of God you deny. Even rejecting His shed blood that would save you, which is the whole reason He was made manifest to the world.
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and
he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 11, 2016, 09:00:39 PMEssentially, the verse was saying that Jesus was given 'authority' by God, not that the 'authority' was his in the first place.
Jesus cannot do anything without the consent/authority of God. Jesus himself said he was powerless without God' help:
“I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. (John 5:30)
"...the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)
There you go: Jesus cannot be a god because he clearly said Gid is greater than Jesus. QED[/size]
They are of one essence, or one being. Coexistent from before the world ever was. Yet you blaspheme them both, to follow a messenger of Satan who mass murdered, raped and stole from Yahweh's people, in the name of the Arabian pagan's deity "Allah".
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where
the beast and
the false prophet are, and shall be
tormented day and night for ever and ever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lEro81ygXQ
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm
Yet through the fog Muhammad's antichrist blasphemy against the Father and His Son,
you can't even see that you are more guilty of Muhammad's unforgivable sin of "shirk", than you are trained to believe each and every Christian has necessarily been throughout the last nearly 2,000 years.
Compare the murderer of innocent Jewish farm boys (http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm#beheading_children) that you follow with, who you believe to be THE Messiah who brought the dead back to life that I follow, while you think about where their bodies went:http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm
Mat 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
046.009 “Say: "I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear."Then compare the histories:
http://www.historyofmecca.com/
QuoteThey are of one essence, or one being. Coexistent from before the world ever was.
That was what you wrote regarding the Father, Jesus (the Son) and I think what you called the Trinity.
Maybe, I should quote the Athanasian Creed and then explain why the trinitarian belief is NOT consistent with the Gospels:QuoteFor there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.
.... take out the word "Catholic" if you like, but I think the whole concept of trinity is the same for all Christian sects.
Mark the words I colored in Red.
and compare to this:
“I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. (John 5:30)
"...the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)
“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?†(Mark 15:34)
“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.†(John 20:17)
Tell me, do you think Jesus has a God?
As was already shown to you, Jesus is the way God chose to manifest or reveal Himself to mankind. He was manifest as being fully man prior to His crucifixion. After His crucifixion, death and resurrection, as His ministry and time on earth was closing He proclaimed He had been given all power/authority in heaven and on earth as we discussed. Who has all power/authority in heaven and on earth? If they weren't of one essence, or one being, what would be left for God to have? Who is the judge of all mankind? Continue to deny and blaspheme the Son of God toward your eternal peril:
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.Quote from: relaxboy on August 16, 2016, 11:12:17 PM
QuoteThey are of one essence, or one being. Coexistent from before the world ever was.
That was what you wrote regarding the Father, Jesus (the Son) and I think what you called the Trinity.
I'll cover your post, including the quote of Jesus during His crucifixion that fulfilled the prophecy of it in Psalms 22 (http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm), but let's start with your apparent misunderstanding in your premise. The three parts of the Godhead are the Yahweh the Father, Yeshua His Son and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.
So let me first ask. Do you believe Muhammad's "Allah" has a spirit?
Surah 15.29: "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."
Quote from: relaxboy on August 16, 2016, 11:12:17 PM
Mark the words I colored in Red.
and compare to this:
“I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. (John 5:30)
"...the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)
“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?†(Mark 15:34)
“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.†(John 20:17)
Tell me, do you think Jesus has a God?[/size]
I made an effort to list down some of the statements of Christ to prove that Jesus has a God, he was a messenger of God, he can do nothing without God's permission. This is clearly a refutation of the trinitarian creed that says that the Father, the Son and the holy spirit are co-eternal, co-equal and that none is greater or less than the other.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 17, 2016, 08:59:01 PM
Quote from: relaxboy on August 16, 2016, 11:12:17 PM
Mark the words I colored in Red.
and compare to this:
“I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. (John 5:30)
"...the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)
“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?†(Mark 15:34)
“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.†(John 20:17)
Tell me, do you think Jesus has a God?[/size]
I made an effort to list down some of the statements of Christ to prove that Jesus has a God, he was a messenger of God, he can do nothing without God's permission. This is clearly a refutation of the trinitarian creed that says that the Father, the Son and the holy spirit are co-eternal, co-equal and that none is greater or less than the other.
You've put little to no effort into engaging in an exchange. You were already provided the answers earlier, ou were just too blind to see them. As you quotes illustrate, Jesus is the Son of God and God His Father. They have been coexistent from before the world was.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
But even as you quote from the hundreds of verses that proclaim the Father and His Son, you deny and blaspheme them because Satan through his "messenger" denies them. As I pointed out, hat makes Muhammad and you antichrists.
I also explained to you that while Jesus was on this earth he was manifest as a man. Just the way God manifest Himself as a man to Abraham. Even after His crucifixion and resurrection He was still manifest in the flesh of a man, but had gone to heaven to receive His glorified body. But while on earth, the Son of God was the perfect example for all mankind. Now read and try to comprehend the following.
Even Muslims refer to Jesus as the "Word", and Christians do as well. Here's why:
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The Son is seated at the right hand of His Father today. As you have been shown, the Word, Jesus, has all power/authority in heaven and on earth. Jesus Christ is the judge of all mankind. You will stand in judgment before the very Son of God that you deny and blaspheme.
Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Now answering this simple question will go a ways toward helping you understand the answers to your questions, even before you ask them.
If you continue to violate the forum rules, that you agreed to when you joined, your posts will start going to spam until you do conform. We have done nothing but answer to you since you got here, while you have avoided, ducked and dodged ours. That time is now over. You will engage in an exchange. You asked dozens of questions that we answered, now we will go back and you will answer as many of ours, as you have asked.
Does your "Allah" have a spirit or not?
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 17, 2016, 11:51:29 PM
You've put little to no effort into engaging in an exchange. You were already provided the answers earlier, ou were just too blind to see them. As you quotes illustrate, Jesus is the Son of God and God His Father. They have been coexistent from before the world was.
So, you are saying that Jesus is also the Father? The Son = the Father?
Is there a heretical Christian sect which believe in that?
Oh one other thing. I only reply questions that relates to the topic. If you want me to share my thoughts on other matters, pls open a new thread and we can discuss in good faith.
[/quote]
Quote from: relaxboy on August 18, 2016, 01:54:41 AM
Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 17, 2016, 11:51:29 PM
You've put little to no effort into engaging in an exchange. You were already provided the answers earlier, ou were just too blind to see them. As you quotes illustrate, Jesus is the Son of God and God His Father. They have been coexistent from before the world was.
So, you are saying that Jesus is also the Father? The Son = the Father?
What I have said repeatedly, is that the Father and Son are one, just as Jesus said:
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
That "one" in the Koine Greek being in the neuter gender, indicates they are of one essence or one being. They are two separate parts of a single Godhead.
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
And again, I pointed out that as He left Jesus said that all power/authority in heaven and on earth Was given to Him. Blaspheme the judge of all mankind at your eternal peril.
Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
You stated clearly that you believe that the Son = the Father, and did not answer how if the three members of the trinity are co-equal, the Son would say that the Father is greater than the Son?
I am still trying to think how this works. :)
Quote from: relaxboy on August 23, 2016, 03:02:27 AMI am still trying to think how this works[/size]. :)
Try this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPJAD8iShfk
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.Quote from: relaxboy on August 03, 2016, 09:34:24 PMIf Alpha and Omega are terms referring to Jehovah, God, or what you called the Father, Jesus NEVER CLAIMED he was the Alpha and Omega.
You were shown that He did but I'll repeat it:
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.....
Who said that? Go down 6 verses:
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Quote from: relaxboy on August 03, 2016, 09:34:24 PMJesus may use other terms, first and the last (of what?),......
EVERYTHING. God IS. His name is "I Am (http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=108.0)". God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.Quote from: relaxboy on August 03, 2016, 09:34:24 PM...... but not claiming the title of God, if Alpha and Omega is indeed a title of God.[/size][/color]
With Alpha and Omega it doesn't seem so much of a title as a description of what He is.