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Quote from: PeteWaldo on October 24, 2016, 01:41:45 PM

Quote from: ExMilitary on October 24, 2016, 11:39:44 AM

I believe he flip-flopped and said that if abortion was outlawed, women who get abortions should not go to prison for murder.  This flip-flop was definite pandering.

I believe he blurted out an answer to a "gotcha" question spontaneously during a debate, that he hadn't previously thought through, and later changed it because he thought better of it. I doubt you would find a single instance of him expressing that as an opinion prior to that "gotcha" question. Indeed he had formerly been pro abortion.

Further to the point of imprisoning women who kill their babies (I believe murder is an inappropriate term as it implies that it's done with malice), have you ever considered the mothers to be victims of the abortion industry, as well as their unborn children?
How many of them are under the age of 26, which is about the time our brains become mature enough to be able to separate our emotions from our intellect? How many of them were talked into their abortions, by the reprobates that profit from the killing?
How many of them realize only too late, that the mistake they made will haunt them every day for the rest of their lives, because they were deprived of a real conversation and support, regarding the long term psychological consequences of their abortion?

1 John 3:15.  Most (the VAST majority of women) who get abortions are choosing themselves over someone else in order to increase their prosperity.  Are they doing it in ignorance?  Probably.  Does that make them any less responsible for murder?  Not according to Yeshua or His apostle.  Hate does not have to come with knowledge in order to be considered sin.

If these people don't repent, they will receive far worse than prison.  They will receive eternal damnation.

To your point: Luke 17:1

Regardless, I am out there often, and, yes, it is often done with malice and rejoicing in evil.  These women smile.  They laugh at us.  They tell us how enjoyable it was to kill their baby... literally dancing with demonic glee.  Are teenagers talked into it?  Some of them are, but what we are seeing is the wrath of God being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness.  These people are "given over" by God to their own reprobate beliefs.  I've been there.  Even "innocent" teenagers, who have been wrongly taught, HATE the Son of God... in ignorance (because they've likely been given over by God to ignorance and darkness).  "The world hates me because I testify that its deeds are evil."

How will folks feel about this who didn't bother to vote?

I'm not voting.  Trump has been 'testing the waters' since 1999, even saying Oprah Winfrey would be his ideal running mate.

As recently as July/August 2015

Trump: "I love God and my church."
Church: "He's not an active member."

Frank Luntz: "Have you ever asked God for forgiveness?"
Trump: "I am not sure I have. I just go on and try to do a better job from there. I don't think so... I think if I do something wrong, I think, I just try and make it right. I don't bring God into that picture. I don't."

As recently as April 2016

Donald Trump's favorite book is 'the Bible'.  His favorite verse is 'an eye for an eye'.
Donald Trump still supports abortion in cases of rape, incest, and when the life of the mother is at stake.  He supports the murdering children for the crimes of the father.
I believe he flip-flopped and said that if abortion was outlawed, women who get abortions should not go to prison for murder.  This flip-flop was definite pandering.

Now, how does one choose between the murder of thousands and millions?  Who's fault is it really in an obviously rigged system?

How will I feel if Hillary is elected?  How will I feel if Trump is elected?  I'm not sure, but I will take solace in knowing that there was no darkness in the land of Goshen.  While Egypt perished, God's people did not.

Revelation 9 - the name of the Angel of the bottomless pit

Abaddon - Strong's G3: Definition 1d - The minister of death
Apollyon - Strong's G623: Defintion 1a - The Destroyer

Names of Allah:

Al-Mumeet - Name no. 62: The Creator of Death, The Destroyer

What I really find super interesting about all of this is that one of the Quranic verses used to support this name of Allah is 15:23.  Commentaries on this verse suggest that Muslims (as a whole) are the inheritors of all things (after death).  Islam believes the following: Muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael. Allah would make the descendants of Ishmael (hence through Muhammad) a great nation... and that they are the inheritors of all things.  This directly contradicts the idea in Isaiah 53, 65, Matthew 25:34, Ephesians 1:10-12, and Hebrews 1 that Yeshua, the descendant of Isaac, is the inheritor of all things and will share that inheritance with those who believe in the fact that (as Hebrews says) that Yeshua is the only begotten Son of God.

Here is the connection: The word abaddon is used in Psalm 88 in relation to "the sons of Korah".  Is it a coincidence that in Korah's rebellion against Moses and Aaron that he tried to inherit a royal priesthood that was not his?

Take into account this http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#christians_on_islam as well

Good article by Robert Satloff: "Just Like Us! Really?"
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/just-like-us-really

His article regards regards the pro-Islam propaganda of John L. Esposito, founding director of Georgetown University's Prince Alwaleed bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding, and Dalia Mogahed, executive director of the Gallup Center for Muslim Studies:

The polling was intended to create the impression that Muhammad's followers are just like everybody else in the world. And while those non-practicing Muslims, "hypocrites" and apostates may be a little more like the rest of us, true, fundamental, orthodox, Muslims will continue to try to do, and be, just like the man that taught them prescribed.

They vainly wish Muhammad's true followers were like the rest of us in spite of the fact that: "Sunni Muslim terrorists committed “about 70 percent” of the 12,533 terrorist murders in the world last year, according to a report by the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC)."
That's just for the year 2012 and doesn't even include Shiite terrorist murders.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm

They wasted 6 years polling Muslims around the world in an effort to reinforce their preposterous premise, by trying to segregate into two groups "moderate" "everyday" Muslims, from those that are in their words "politically radicalized" which folks in this forum recognize to be orthodox Muslims that do as Muhammad did and commanded his followers to do as is taught by the largest Islamic universities.

I'll defer to Robert Satloff's article:

[...snip...]

Are these those peaceful Christian loving Muslims everyone is talking about.  They are the 'good guys' in Syria.  These (good) Muslims are the ones the US is supporting in fighting the evil ISIS (bad Muslims) insurgence.  These are the ones who are also fighting the evil Assad regime.  They want peace (good Muslims), that is all.

Click here to read the story

So, what is the doctrine of these (good) Muslims?

“Christians and Americans have no place among us,” shouts one man in the video. “They want to wage a crusader war to occupy Syria.”

And the video ends with the ever peaceful cry, "Allahu akbar".

Just like the rest of the world, they cannot tell the difference between a label and a disciple.  In fact, just like the rest of the world, I'll bet they don't even care: "[The world] hates me because I testify that it's deeds are evil".  These people don't hate just crusaders and false disciples, they hate the idea that God has a Son.

They hate God's salvation.

http://fortune.com/2015/09/24/hajj-pilgrimage-cost/

Every year millions of Muslims trek to Mecca as part of the annual “Hajj,” or pilgrimage in English.

The annual Islamic pilgrimage is seen as a mandatory religious duty for Muslims that must be carried out at least once in their lifetime, at least for those who are financially and physically able to make the journey. It lasts for over five days and includes a series of detailed rituals. It can sometimes be dangerous: a stampede during an annual ritual Thursday morning left at least 700 attendees dead and 800 others injured, not the first time tragedy has struck the event.

The Hajj is a major financial commitment for many Muslims around the world. The low-cost Hajj for 2015 will run someone a minimum of $800 and up to $1,350, a price mandated by the Saudi hajj ministry.

The final cost depends on what level camp a person ends up staying in within Mina and Arafat, where all meals, water, soft drinks, and hot drinks are provided. The locations also include a medical doctor, security guards and around the clock cleaning. Those costs don’t include any necessary airfare or train ticket costs in order to travel to the lodging locations.

The costs of attending the Hajj only go up from there, depending what travel service a pilgrim uses, and where the pilgrim is traveling from.

Hajj-USA, a company offering three different pilgrimage packages from New York City, has three tiers available. “Package A” spans 18 days and includes airfare, lodging in five-star hotels prior to the event, transportation via government buses, and then a basic tent at the Mena camp during the Hajj. That would set a pilgrim back $7,595, which includes the Hajj fees.

However, if a pilgrim wants to step it up with private buses and a VIP tent at Mena, they’ll have to put in some more cash. The “Package C” at Hajj-USA, covering a 12-day trip, goes for $11,900 (fees included).

In practice.

https://www.facebook.com/ChristiansUnitedforIsrael/videos/10154452305769814/

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Of course it is, since we have repeatedly shown that the whole subject of the Gospel was necessarily the same in the 7th century, as it is today. There was, and is, only one Gospel.
https://youtu.be/sJ9X6MQS8LM

Right. ExMilitary agreed there was no Arabic Bible at Mecca/Medina during Muhammad's time.

That is not what I said.  Why are you trying to say that I did?

You accused me of saying that there were Arabic Bibles and challenged me to prove it.  (Prove something I never claimed).  I never even mentioned Arabic Bibles... that is some idea you (somehow) came up with...  What I said was that your accusation (that I said there were Arabic Bibles) was false, AND completely irrelevant to the argument!

Stop hearing what you want to hear, and READ what I've written!

On the other hand, Christians and Jews at that area might have other competing scriptures and beliefs than the mainstream Judaism and Christianity. There were already many other Gospels around at that time, in the Hijaz and the surrounding area, and possibly in Christendom in the 7th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-canonical_books_referenced_in_the_Bible

It is rather dishonest to claim that There was, and is, only one Gospel[/size]

Stop shifting the goalposts.  Stay focused on the task at hand.

That wikipedia link you provided... you do realize that what it is talking about are allusions to other books that aren't in the Bible... it has nothing to do with the veracity of the CANONIZED books that were in circulation in the 7th century.  NAMELY REVELATION... which states Alpha and Omega = alive, dead, alive forevermore.  Even the KJV references extracanonical books!  WE already know this.  This has nothing to do with a different Gospel.

Your argument is similar to calling the Torah/Old Testament non-Jewish because it mentions Philistines, Babylonians, and Assyrians.

I'm beginning to think that either:

1.  You truly aren't comprehending
2.  You are practicing taqiyyah

Because what you are presenting is nonsensical... completely disjointed in thought.

Quote from: ExMilitary on August 10, 2016, 09:29:38 PM

The Latin Vulgate was circulated as the official translation of the Roman empire a couple of hundred years before your prophet.  This included North Africa, the Sinai Peninsula, Israel, etc...

The Latin Vulgate says "beginning and end", "Alpha and Omega"...
Other manuscripts... from the North Africa region... Alpha and Omega...

This is what the "People's Book" said when Muhammad encouraged them to search it.

The Alpha and Omega is DIRECTLY connected to the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua.  Alpha and Omega = the one who lives, was dead, and now is alive forevermore.

There is no evidence of an Arabic Bible at Mecca and Medina in the 7th century. Do your research or prove to me otherwise.

Do you even comprehend what I have typed?  I never said that there was an Arabic Bible in the 7th century. 

As a matter of fact (as Pete pointed out here: http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=5120.msg19564#msg19564) it is the people of the Gospel that are to judge what is revealed in the Gospels.

The point I'm making (and continue to make) is that the version of the Gospels that THEY had did, in fact, equate Alpha and Omega to Yeshua.  It doesn't matter if there was a Bible in Arabic or not... it isn't even relevant to the argument.  You said that Jesus never claimed to be God. I've amply demonstrated that THIS VERY THING is recorded in the writings of the Christians prior to Muhammad, was circulated in the area prior to Muhammad, and existed both in written fashion, and oral fashion when Muhammad was alive.... written proof to you, and you respond with "there is no Arabic bible"?  I'm thinking you just can't comprehend what I am showing you.

You keep claiming that the written word has been altered. (i.e. saying Jesus never claimed to be God)  It has not.  This text was part of the main circulation of scripture, worldwide, well before Muhammad.  Again, as Pete pointed out, it is the SAME as it has always been since even BEFORE the 7th century, into the 7th century, and will continue to be forever.

I do not think there was an Arabic bible at the time of Muhammad (pbuh).

Again, that is not relevant.  It is merely enough to prove that the scriptures were being circulated among the Christians.

There was also no record of the Christians at Mecca/Medina at that time who referred to Jesus as the Alpha and Omega. Show me, otherwise.
[/size]

I've done just that.  Revelation was contained within the scriptures in the churches.  The Latin Vulgate (the "official" translation at the time), along with it's underlying GREEK manuscripts say so.

Are you just not comprehending what I'm telling you?

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You've still not answered my question.  Reread it.  I said MANUSCRIPTS, not the KJV Bible.  Do you understand the difference between an original manuscript and a translation (such as the KJV)?  I am quoting to you from the KJV which is based on the MANUSCRIPTS that Muhammad said should be searched.

You have one of two choices at this point, either:
   1.  You agree that the KJV is based on the correct manuscripts
   2.  You disagree and thereby call Muhammad a false prophet as he said to search these manuscripts

Some points which you need to clarify:

1. What  'manuscripts' are you referring to? Are they Greek, Hebrew or Arabic?

2. Pls prove to me that the KJV bible is based on these 'manuscripts' which you claimed Muhammad (pbuh) said 'should be searched'

What Muhammad (pbuh) informed the Muslims was that the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) should searched their scripture and they will find the Truth.

Essentially, it is the same as I told you before. The bible contains the message of the Injeel and Torah, revealed by God. The Bible also contains the writings of men which they claimed to be from God.

The Quran came to CONFIRMED the earliest scripture and to protect them.
Hence, as I said, the true Injeel and Torah, in the BIble, will always be there and you can confirm the truth of the Bible by checking with the Quran.

“To thee (Muhammad) We sent the scripture(Qur'an) in truth confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety. Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel -- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which IS before it and guidance and good news for the believers.” (Quran 2:97)

Again, the confusion among Christians is that they think we approve the BIBLE, when the Quran said God will protect the true Injeel and Torah, which can be found in the OT and Gospels.

The Latin Vulgate was circulated as the official translation of the Roman empire a couple of hundred years before your prophet.  This included North Africa, the Sinai Peninsula, Israel, etc...

The Latin Vulgate says "beginning and end", "Alpha and Omega"...
Other manuscripts... from the North Africa region... Alpha and Omega...

This is what the "People's Book" said when Muhammad encouraged them to search it.

The Alpha and Omega is DIRECTLY connected to the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua.  Alpha and Omega = the one who lives, was dead, and now is alive forevermore.

You claim that Muhammad never encouraged the BIBLE, just the Torah and the Gospel.  Sura 19:30 states that Isa was given the Gospel.  In Sura 3:3, Allah confirms that the BOOK being used by the Christians is previous scripture "He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel"

Muhammad never dismisses the Bible even though the WHOLE thing (including Revelation) was in widespread use throughout the entire area.  No, Muhammad merely tells Christians to not "exceed your religion" and say that Allah has a partner...  Why didn't he directly tell Christians to stop reading their Bible?  It was "their religion"...

Because he knew almost nothing of what was actually contained in the Bible... Yet he claimed ALL of it to be true.

John (in Revelation) the Disciple of Yeshua claims that Yeshua gave him the message of Revelation.  Therefore Revelation is (part of) the Gospel.

So... Now that I've shown you, what do you say to me who reads this passage in Muhammad's recommended reading list, and it says that Yeshua is the Alpha and Omega?

Quote from: ExMilitary on August 04, 2016, 03:23:22 PM

Seriously?  I'll post it for you AGAIN:

Revelation 1:10-18

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice... Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last... And I turned to see the voice that spake with me... And when I saw him... he... saying unto me...I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore

I take the initiative to provide a link to the various bible translations of Revelation 1:11.

http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-11.htm

 Virtually all modern translations do not include in Rev 1:11 the following words that are in the KJV version of that verse:


"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and,"

The statement at Rev. 1:11 in the KJV and NKJV is recognized as spurious by most knowledgeable modern Bible scholars.

If you reject the KJV/NKJV, then you are rejecting the same manuscripts approved by Muhammad in the 7th century.  Even your own prophet told us to search THESE manuscripts... Certainly you aren't telling me Muhammad was wrong, are you?

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Why are you shifting the goal posts?  Let's deal with just one issue at at time:

I just gave you concrete evidence that THE ONE SPEAKING, whom John saw, claimed to be both the Almighty, and the one that liveth, was dead, and is now alive forevermore.  There are not "one" and "the other" as you say.  There is just one in this passage.  The words in John's testimony make this very clear.

Now, keeping in the context of Revelation, EVERY subsequent use of this Greek word in the entire book of Revelation is referring to God (Rev 4:8, 11:17, 15:3, 16:7, 16:14, 19:6, 19:15, and 21:22)

It isn't going to get any more concrete than this.  This is an unambiguous declaration.  Yet, you still do not believe.

Jesus NEVER CLAIMED he was the Alpha and Omega.

I just showed you the passage where He does exactly that... Alpha/Omega... alive, dead, alive forever more... same one speaking... John says so
There it is in black and white.

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Hello again to you my friend and welcome to the forum. May God bless you.

As Christians, the best and most important way for us to love our Muslim could-become-brethren, is to show them the truth. Our hatred of Islam stems from the fact that it is the exact opposite of that revealed through the love of the one true God, since Muhammad deceived his followers into denying the whole subject of the Gospel.

You see, while this is a bit of "tough love", from a Christian perspective Muhammad was a lying, antichrist, hater and bigot, who along with his followers, blaspheme our Lord and Savior by proclaiming such blasphemy as:

Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

While our Gospel proclaims:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Again the Quran:

Surah 9.29 Fight those.....(even if they are) of the People of the Book.....30 .....Christians call Christ the son of Allah. ..... Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

And again the Gospel:

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Can you understand it is a 2-way street? Can you understand that Muhammad's 23-year 7th century record, is absolutely irreconcilable with the 1600 year record of the one true God of Jews and Christians, as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses? That the Quran is as opposite to the whole subject of the Gospel as Muhammad was the opposite of Jesus Christ?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm

Here are some of your former brethren that have come to know the love of the one true God through a relationship with Jesus Christ:
http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.php

I have asked this question to many Christians - Where did Jesus said he was god?

I always get the same reply - Christians quoting from Bible saying another person CLAIMING that Jesus was god.

That was a wrong answer.

At least, there were some Christians who made an effort to quote a line or two of Jesus' words which they pushed as his call of being divine.

Come on, show me something concrete. 

Revelation 1:8-18 "I am Alpha and Omega...the Almighty"... I John... heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet Saying, "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last"...I turned to see the voice that spake with me... And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, "Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen"


OR more succinctly

Revelation 1:8-18 "I am ...the Almighty...that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore"

The one voice speaking to John said that he was both the Almighty and the one who was alive, dead, and alive...

There it is.  Do you believe now?

Lucifer is Satan. Satan is Lucifer. Satan is an archangel.

Have I got it right?

This board is intended as a ministry to Muslims, not for discussion about doctrine among Christians.

The original line of questioning on this thread was directed by/toward a Muslim, and has now gone way off track.  Time to get back to the subject matter.

I'd encourage you to remain within the confines of arguing for the Gospel among Muslims so they may be rescued from hell.