Islam, Muslim / Christian Forum - Welcome All

But please, restrict it to one topic/claim at a time, sometimes you tend to wander off into different topics and claims while discussing the one at hand, please try your best to avoid that, I'm easily overwhelmed

I know I told you that I'm free now, but I actually got a new project to work on, but this time I'll do my best to answer as quickly as possible.

OK, now if you wish to discuss this point further, ask your questions, or if you feel satisfied (but not convinced I'm sure) you can give me another topic to tackle, I wold appreciate it if you don't force me to go back to fish for topics from earlier discussions, if you wish copy and paste here the next topic you think we should discuss.

I have to admit I've taken advantage of your generosity when it comes to the factor of time regarding my replies, so here is my reply to the part about Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael, I have to admit I had to borrow a lot from online sources, but only the parts that I wanted to say but found that it had been already put in much better words than I could. Peace...


Ishmael is a highly regarded person in the Qur'an. Ishmael enjoined upon his people worship and almsgiving, and was acceptable in the sight of his Lord (Qur'an 19:55).

The Qur'an mentions Ishmael with other people like Elisha, Jonah and Lot, who are considered righteous, good or chosen (Qur'an 6:86 and Qur'an 38:48)

Abraham and Ishmael are said to have built the foundations of the Ka'aba ('They were raising the foundations of the House', Qur'an 2:127). Meccans, and most Arabs at the time of Muhammad, believed that Isma'il settled in Mecca and built with Abraham the Ka'ba which they revered from old times.

Abraham conceives a son with Hagar when Sarah is unable to bear children. Then, after many years, Sarah miraculously gives birth to Isaac. After some time upon God's command, Abraham sends Hagar and Ishmael to the desert with God's promise of protection. The Quran takes a special interest in Hagar and her son, through whom Arabs trace their connection to Abraham. Each year during the Hajj (the ritual pilgrimage) in Mecca, pilgrims re-enact Hagar's desperate search for water for her infant son, running seven times between two hills and drawing water from the well of Zam Zam, said to have sprung miraculously from the dry earth at the baby Ishmael�s feet. The full story is mentioned in Sahih Bukhari[4].

The Qur'an stresses twice that it does not make distinction between the revelations by Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the tribes (i.e. the sons of Jacob), and that which Moses and Jesus revealed, and that which other prophets received from their Lord. (Qur'an 2:136 and Qur'an 3:84)

Another reference where the name of Ishmael appears is where the Qur'an states that he was inspired in the same manner as prophets like Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon.

Muslims believe that when Abraham peace be upon him, the father of Isaac and Ishmael (Ismail), offered his son for sacrifice for GOD Almighty, he offered Ishmael. Jews and Christians believe that he offered Isaac.

The Jews and Christians believe that any son or daughter born from a Servant or Slave woman is not considered a biological son or daughter.  Muslims on the other hand, believe that any son or daughter born from any mother is a biological son or daughter.  Not only that, but the slave woman instantly becomes free.

Jews, Christians and Muslims all agree that Ishmael peace be upon him was 13 years older than Isaac peace be upon him.  This means that the Muslims' claim is much closer to the Truth than the Jews' and Christians', because if we were to believe that Abraham offered Isaac for sacrifice to GOD Almighty, then he would've waited at least 13 years to do so if not even longer.

The bible of the jews and Christians is corrut by the admition of the bible itself - "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.  (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:"

Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.  The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted.  The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

"And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites(Jews), which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.  (Deuteronomy 31:25-29)"

Could it be that the Jews in order for them to prove their theory about them being GOD's "Chosen People" that they altered the Bible and came up a claim such as a son born from a Slave woman is not considered a biological son to enforce Isaac's position since he came from a Jewish mother, and to make the Jews look even more superior? Don't forget that Sarah according to the bible was Abrahams sister. So this is claiming that the son of an insist relationship if more ligitimate than the son born of a slave woman.

"Historically, Jews and Christians alike have held that Moses was the author/compiler of the first five books of the OT. These books, known also as the Pentateuch (meaning "five-volumed book"), were referred to in Jewish tradition as the five fifths of the law (of Moses). The Bible itself suggests Mosaic authorship of Genesis, since Ac 15:1 refers to circumcision as "the custom taught by Moses," an allusion of Ge 17. However, a certain amount of later editorial updating does appear to be indicated (see, e.g., notes on 14:14; 36:31; 47:11).    (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 2)"

So in reality, the book of Genesis had been tampered with by man.  It had been corrupted.

As we clearly see above, the author of the Book of Hebrews is not known. This means that anyone could've written this Book/Letter.  This obviously would mean that the Book/Letter then would in no way be the True Living Words of GOD Almighty.

We also clearly see above, that the Book of Genesis had been altered and updated by people after Moses peace be upon him.  Again, it is highly possible that when the Jews altered the Book of Genesis, they made it persuade the reader that Isaac was the son to be sacrificed, because his mother was Jewish.  They also inserted the false claim, that any son born from a Slave woman is not considered a biological son.

Let us look at what God Almighty Said:

"'O my Lord! grant me a righteous (son)!'  So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.  Then when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, He said:  'O my son!  I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice:  Now see what is thy view!'  (The son) said:  'O my father!  Do as thou art commanded:  Thou wilt find me, if Allah so wills one practising patience and constancy!'  (The Noble Quran, 37:100-102)"

Here we see Abraham peace be upon him prayed to Allah Almighty to grant him a righteous son.  This was in the fertile land of Syria and Palestine.  The boy thus born was, according to Muslim tradition, (which however is not unanimous to this point), the first-born son of Abraham, Ismail or Ishmael.  The name itself is from the root Samia, to hear, because Allah had heard Abraham's prayer (Noble Verse 37:100).  Abraham's age when Ismail was born was 86.

Let us use some logic here:  As I mentioned, the Bible claims that Abraham offered his son Isaac for sacrifice, and the Noble Quran claims that he offered Ishmael (No explicitly but through various evidence found in the verses), who was 13 years older than Isaac for sacrifice.  So, we have the Bible's word against the Noble Quran's.

Also, "Ishma" means "to hear", and "el" is from the Jewish word meaning god, then Abraham had named Ishmael him as such, because Allah Almighty heard his prayer and granted him a son, his first-born son Ishmael.

Abraham was so happy to have his first-born son Ishmael at a very old age, that he named him a name that symbolizes his long patience and his gratefulness to GOD Almighty that he finally Heard Abraham and granted him his wish that he'd always wanted.  Remember that Abraham was 86 when Ishmael was born. So Ishmael was NOT as the corrupted Bible claims, a not considered biological son to Abraham.  Abraham adored Ishmael and loved him so dearly.  The proof to this is as I said, Ishmael's name.  

Important Note:  As I mentioned above, Ishmael was 13 years older than Isaac, and Abraham loved GOD Almighty very much that he wanted to sacrifice his own son for Him.  If Ishmael's name represents Abraham's gratefulness to GOD Almighty after a desperate long wait to have a son, then it makes perfect sense that Abraham wanted to sacrifice Ishmael to GOD Almighty by giving Him the most precious thing he ever had.  

Let us continue reading what God Almighty Said in the Noble Quran:

"So when they had both [Abraham and Ishmael] submitted their wills (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrated on his forehead (for sacrifice), We called out to him, 'O Abraham!   Thou hast already fulfilled the vision! - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.  For this was obviously a trial - and We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:  And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:  'peace and salutation to Abraham!'  Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.  (The Noble Quran, 37:103-110)"

Note (in Noble Verse 37:103) that the sacrifice was demanded of both Abraham and Ismail.  It was a trial of the will of the father and the son.  By way of trial the father had the command conveyed to him in a vision.  He consulted the son.   The son readily consented, and offered to stand true to his promise if his self-sacrifice was really required.  The whole things is symbolical.  Allah does not require the flesh and blood of animals (Noble Verse 22:37), much less of human beings.   But he does require the giving of our whole being to Allah, the symbol of which is that we should give up something very dear to us, if duty requires that sacrifice. [3]

"For he [Abraham] was one of our believing Servants.  And we gave him the good news [a second-born son to come] of Isaac - a Prophet - One of the Righteous.  (The Noble Quran, 37:111-112)"

Isaac was Abraham's second son, born of Sarah, when Abraham was 100 years of age.   He was also blessed and became the ancestor of the Jewish people.

Hello Pete, hope you didn't miss me too much
I've finally finished that deadline, so today I have some free time to spend responding to your comments, please try not to answer until I've completed my responses, which I'll indicate in the last comment I send. This is only for the sake of neatness and so as not to get mangled in a net of reciprocated responses.

P.S. your comments contained a lot of claims that need to be addressed like "how perfectly opposite Mohammed's book is?" and "Mohammad has no prophecies" etc... every single one of these is a claim you're putting forth as if they cannot be challenged, which is why I asked you to hold your horses until I get back to you on the original topic.

Thanks, I know I proposed the one day limit, but since you said keep it open/unlimited, I'm taking you up on that offer, because as it happens I needed the time. As for the Abraham issue, you asked me to give you references about our view and to explain it further, which is what I'm going to do, it wasn't an impasse per se, because you didn't ask anything that I couldn't answer, you just gave a statement about how your record is older than mine, which if you ask me doesn't prove anything, anyway, like I said, please give me some time, and we'll move forward, don't worry, I think we're going to be discussing things for quite sometime, and I'm not going anywhere.

See , you're taking advantage of the fact that I'm getting too busy to answer you quickly, that you are showering me with new claims, when we agreed on taking things one claim at a time, and only one claim per turn per person. I'm a Subtitler, and I have 3 files that should be delivered by the end of today or I'll lose an account.I would love to answer you more quickly, but you're the one who said pop-up whenever you can, and keep response time unlimited, right? so, please respect the terms we agreed on, and wait for my response, I'm not running away from the fight, but I'll tackle one point at a time, and since you're the one who suggested it, I'll do it at my own pace.

Peace

It's not a matter of researching the answer, but rather digging up the references. I know what I want to say, it's the supporting verses and whatnot that I need time with, I would rather we stick to the topic at hand a while longer, because you made some allegations that I would like to address. Anyway it won't be long, I just need to go with the family to meet some friends, and when I'm back later in the evening I will reply. I Remember whatever other questions you have till later, but also remember that after this I'll get to challenge you with a question or two of my own before you get to ask me again. Or at least I thought I made it clear that this is my wish regarding how to discuss here.

"Why don't you quote from the Quran to make your point?"

Like I said earlier, I will, however unfortunately I've not reached the point of memorizing by heart all the verses that I need to answer you thoroughly. I'll get back to you.

Well that is the bible's account of things, in Islam Abraham did separate between Hagar and Sarah, Hagar went to Mecca (Arabia) with her son, but it wasn't because Ishmael mocked Isaac, and he didn't disown Ishmael, Abraham kept visiting them in Arabia - and Abraham built the Kabaa there (I think with the help of Ishmael if I'm not mistaken). As for the reason, some scholars say it is because he feared Sarah's jealousy because Hagar gave birth to the first born son for Abraham, but I have no concrete evidence of that last part (at least to my knowledge - haven't researched the matter greatly). Anyway. I need to go now, I'll be back later god willing to answer the other part of your question with references. please don't add too many new comments, I don't want to be overwhelmed when I come back.

"Surely you can then see that the only "reason" to suspect Isaac's half-brother was actually the one the covenant, and that the Jews got it wrong for 2000 years, didn't come along until the 7th century."

Yes, the reason to suspect came later in time, however what we as Muslims say is that the time interval doesn't matter because the correction (at least to Muslims) came from God. If we claimed that this is the understanding of some historian who came like you said centuries after the event , I would agree with you about it being suspicious, but we're telling you that it came from God. Anyway, I'll need some time to gather sources to present you the basis of my belief, but they are not proof of my view point any more that quoting the bible for me is proof of yours.

I still do not see the question? If you want to prove that we don't see eye-to-eye on this, then I agree. The fact that Jews have held this belief for centuries even before our prophet was born is not a proof of the validity of the claim. Ishmael was the son of an Egyptian woman, who was also Sarah's handmaiden, So Jews had a motive for denying that Ishmael was included in the covenant and in God's blessing. In either case, Muslims believe both Ishmael and Isaac were God's prophets and they were both righteous people - you don't believe Ishmael was a prophet which is your prerogative, but depending on the bible to prove your point of view is not practical, since as a Muslim I believe the bible is not the pure word of God, people in the far east have beliefs that date further back in time than that, and I don't think you would argue that Hinduism or Buddhism etc... is correct simply because it's ancient.

That is my understanding of what came in the bible, yes.

I know you're still writing, so I don't mean to interrupt, but I just want to remind you to please give a clear cut question or claim in the end that needs response.

OK

OK, good enough for me. How about a one-day limit on replying, a person might be busy for less than that might not be enough, but more than that might be too slow.

Ok, sounds good to me... as your question, or put forth your claim, and I'll reply to it, if you feel unsatisfied we'll keep addressing the issue, however we should have a mechanism for realizing when we've reached an impasse.