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Quote from: Ian Liddle on June 24, 2014, 10:01:30 AM
Reading through the various posts above, I note that some people are confused by Revelation 11 verses 7 to 10.  First, when the beast (Islamic) makes war against the two witnesses and kills them (verse 7), it does not explicitly say that all members of each 'witness' are killed.  We know from other scriptures (like 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) that there will be living members of the faithful Church who will be raptured along with the resurrected believers (whose rapture is described in Revelation 11:11-12).  Secondly, most Bible translations of Revelation 11:9 are technically inaccurate.  The Greek word that most Bibles render as "dead bodies" is ptoma, which is actually in the singular.  It can mean one dead body, or "corpse", or "carcase", or "ruins".  Given that each of the two witnesses is an ekklesia (a "church" or group of "called-out ones"), and that the English word "church" is interchangeably used to describe both an assembly of believers and also the place where they meet, I personally prefer to translate ptoma here as "ruins".  Take a look at the ruins of all the destroyed churches in Egypt (the one unambiguous place mentioned in Revelation 11:8 ), for example, which are still "lying in the street" after being attacked last summer.  We are seeing many verses of the Book of Revelation being fulfilled before our very eyes - and, yes, I do believe that we are currently in the middle of those three and a half "days" (years) that lead up to the rapture described in Revelation 11:11-12.

I Was thinking that we were in the time of the beast from the bottomless pit coming up to make war with the witness.  To my knowledge, Islam is attacking Christians in the middle east and Africa with elevated intensity in the last few years.  Then of course Israel is surrounded by enemies.  Is it possible that the 1260 days starting point for the two witness's might be different than the starting point of Daniel's prophecy that points to 688 AD?  And this is why this issue can be a bit confusing?

What if 1260 days starting point is more Christian in nature?  One day that stands out to me is the great earthquake of 790 AD in Constantinople.  The day after was a solar eclipse over the region.  3 years before was when the 7th ecumenical church made it mandatory to have an icon in every church. It was signed in Constantinople. This was when Rome and Constantinople agreed to it for both groups of Christians.  Before it was just Rome with icons steadily.  Emperors in Constantinople felt like every time this law was passed they would lose battles so they always tried to outlaw icons as a way to keep God's blessing.  Anyway this last 7th ecumenical counsel is known for making icons mandatory and a permanent thing. 

I see the power of fire and withholding rain and such as the power of prayer of believers appealing to God to bring judgement which are some of those judgements of the seals 1-6 and the trumpets 1-6.   

Is it possible to ask if there was an answer to this question? 

I was thinking that the prayers of the both Jews and Gentiles to God about their persecution throughout history causes the judgements listed in Revelation to come to be.   It seems the power of fire and withholding rain, is the power of prayer of the saints.  When either Jew or Gentile believer fall from the doctrine that God gave them, enemy gains power over them to hurt them.  When the saints both Jew and Gentile believers humbled themselves before God in prayer and turned from their abominations, God heard their cry and past judgement against their enemies. 

I could be off.  I am just trying to think about it.  The Jews are a witness to God.  Their scattering abroad and persecution is a witness of God's judgement.  No nation/people have ever been so hated and persecuted against.  It seems a witness to God.  They are blinded by God about the truth of Jesus but they do acknowledge the one true God.  Sure there are some who pollute God's word.  This is true for Gentile believer as much as a Jew.  I am just saying that they still are a witness of God to the world about the truth of God's word. 

Christian unbelievers are witnesses to God over its history.  The word of God's prophecy has been fulfilled too in them. 

Well, that is how I am seeing it right now.  Thanks for any input. 

A little about me.  I come from a mixed background of competing doctrines, baptist, pentecostal and lately I was studying under a group of dispensationalism...ultradispensationals almost but not to the extent of Bullinger...although very close. 

One thing that I had difficulty is that they teach that our purpose of this dispensation is to be prepared as sons to repossess the heavenly places (2nd heaven which is corrupt).  I am so uneducated about the scriptures.  I am though very absorbed in studying.   I can read several books from the Bible in a day.  I know that some people think you should studying intensely verse by verse, but I want the feel of the whole matter.  Often times people can be so absorbed in an area of the scriptures that their viewpoint becomes skewed about the whole matter.  I realize I need the whole of the matter to be able to make distinctions and get to the truth of the matter.

I realized that something is up when one verse that stuck out to me and wouldn't let me go is when Paul says that we will forever be with the Lord at the last trump.  I can't quote scriptures easily but I don't forget easily what I read.  this verse I cling to.  I desire to forever be with the Lord.  I felt that DOG was making this out to be a spiritual thing rather than a literal thing.  How could I forever be with the Lord if I was in the heavenly places and Jesus was on earth ruling with Israel?  As selfish as it maybe, I just want to be with the Lord.

Of course, I fell upon historicism on accident really.  But is anything ever an accident?  DOG group I study with says that God is not interacting at this time except through His Word and educated sons and daughters.  Everything is just random chance.  I can't see this.  I tried too, but I can't.  I really try to give every view a chance.  But truth is truth.  I will question something until I get to the bottom of it, and right now I am so intensely looking for the truth.

They say that God has his prophetic program on hold.  I know that people say you shouldn't look at the stars and such but that is how I found who the true God was.  I was reading books by EW Bullinger last year particularly The Witnesses of the Stars.  I wouldn't have been so persuaded except of what I saw in the sky last year with Comet Ison.  It went through a third of the constellations before coming to judgement at the scales and then it was obliterated by the sun in the heart of scorpio which is in the heart of milky way which in ancient times was worshiped as a snake.  Comet Ison was a rare comet that gave off a rare red glow. From Feb where it was first seen by earthly telescopes until its death, it was crowned by ten crescent moons and seven wandering stars.  It met its death on the first day of Hannukah as it was blown to bits by the Sun.  Scriptures from Isaiah and Revelation stood out to me.  It may sound crazy, but you can't argue with the basic facts and the coincidences. 

A few months later, I was researching out the whole blood moon theories.  I went back before Christ in my research.  While most blood moons could not point to anything conclusive due to lack of historical record, 168 BC was the only one that could indeed be found incredibly significant.  The lunar eclipses played a huge part in the historical events related to the abmonational sacrifice, an important battles and such.  It was unusually rare due to the fact that all four lunar eclipses could be seen in Israel.  This doesn't happen very much.  Most lunar eclipse are seen in a variety of places for example most of the lunar eclipses of the current tetrad will only be seen in the Americas.     

Anyway I had no idea about the historical events surrounding Hannukah until I had researched the matter of tetrads.  I knew there was some significance of this particular time of 168 BC.  I had placed it in the back of my mind to consider again.   As I studied with my DOG group, I was unsatisfied with their dismissiveness of historical events.  I wasn't saying that I knew something but it seemed there was something important in these events especially since Jesus celebrated Hannukah.

Well, I can't remember exactly what we were studying in particular that led me to desiring to know more about the knowledge of tree and evil but I came across a site that did a very interesting study on the matter.  They had huge section on the study of Daniel and Revelation and I was struck by their conclusion on there being no 7 year tribulation. If I were being honest, I never did see the seven year tributlation from the verses out of Daniel.  I just thought I would one day study it out and see it for myself.  I did a few studies but I felt that they were treating the passage as a dual one, one talking about Jesus as the Messiah and also talking about antichrist.  This treating of the scriptures seemed peculiar to me and now I see how wrong it is. 

the website went on to demonstrate a very interesting historicist view, and I was quite persuaded.  of course they hadn't concluded the 2500 years as time, times and half a time.  I had a random thought about it knowing that a day can be a 1000 years in God's eyes, so I plugged it into google and found beholdthebeast.com .  I was totally blown away by the calculations, and I had to do my own calulating and then I read the whole pdf on the matter on christianescatology.com. 

yes, I am lucky to have too much time on my hands.  I have been reading Paul's epistles so that I can then compare it to all of what I will read in Hebrews through Jude. I should have done this before jumping into the DOG study group, but I did learn alot from them that I know to be true like justification and sancification and all that Jesus did and has provided for me.  I just think they succumbed to vain imaginations when it comes to future events.   I read Isaiah 47-66 last night and started Jeremiah because honestly I am trying to see what exactly is happening and going to happen next with Israel. 

I am full of questions but so much is on my mind that I think it will take a few days for me to articulate what it is that I am confused about.  My questions have probably been answered already so I will be looking around to find them before posting.  If I asked a question that has already been answered, I apologize.  Its probably that I didn't see it or I feel that it didn't make a necessary distinction that I need to know to fnd out the truth of the matter.   Thanks for all your patience with me.