Islam, Muslim / Christian Forum - Welcome All

Until you can become honest enough to engage in an exchange, and answer as to whether you are JW or not, please do not post further. It's much easier to have a discussion when I know where a person is coming from.

However if you do return, and answer that simple question, and/or for any forum browsers that may come later that ponder your posts, in simple answer to all of your prior false presumptions regarding Jesus being "created" as a result of His birth:

Rest assured that I will not be posting here again.


I am done with this website.  Now you can go back to posting to yourself, like you have been doing for the last couple of years since the last person decided to up and leave.  With websites like this a dime a dozen across the internet, who, in his or her right mind, do you think will put up with your behavior?


NeutralZone




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". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. . . . " (James 1:19-20)

Quote from: PeteWaldo on February 04, 2015, 09:23:14 AM

Perhaps if I inquire part by part:

".....it would help if you begin by letting me know which Bible you are use as the authority."

And more directly, if you have ever used the New World Translation.

When you registered for this forum you agreed to engage in an exchange, yet you ignored the quoted yet again. Your having done so suggests it's safe for me to presume that you are a Jehovah's Witness. Would I be correct in that presumption?

Correction.  I agreed to debate the topic of various threads by replying directly to scriptures posted by others.  I've been doing exactly that since I showed up in this thread.

NeutralZone


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". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. . . . " (James 1:19-20)

Perhaps if I inquire part by part:

".....it would help if you begin by letting me know which Bible you are use as the authority."

And more directly, if you have ever used the New World Translation.

Peter:

I quoted the scriptures directly from your thread entitled "The Son of God - Jesus Christ - Yeshua." http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=611.0

So whatever Bible translation you used when you quoted those scriptures, it clearly has not helped your argument that the Judeo-Christian God is three persons combined into one god.  All of the verses you quoted in that thread contradict Christendom's Trinity. We can discuss each of those verses, a few at time, and I will show you why.

NeutralZone



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". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. . . . " (James 1:19-20)

Quote from: NeutralZone on February 04, 2015, 08:31:04 AM

For example, the verses in the first weblink simply confirm that Jesus Christ is the created Son of Jehovah the Father.

Then which of those verses confirmed that Jesus is the created Son of YHWH the Father?

Peter:
I quoted the three verses from your own thread, and all three indicate that Jesus Christ is a created being.  Notice your quotation again, after which I will elaborate on why the verses are talking about a created being.

It is true scripture refers to sons of God in the Old Testament, missing THE prophesied Son of God in these (and other) Old Testament verses:

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Let's begin with Isaiah 9:6.  You ignored the red flags where the verse starts off with: "a child is born".  Being "born" indicates that Jesus is a created being. According to the trinity doctrine, Jesus and YHWH/Jehovah are CO-ETERNAL and CO-EQUAL. Isaiah 9:6 says Jesus Christ (after he came from heaven to earth) was getting ready to be born.  An eternal person cannot be born at anytime, because being born is proof that the person had a beginning.

Now, look at Isaiah 7:14.  It again says that Jesus Christ was being born as a human, after he was sent to earth.  An eternal person does not have a beginning and therefore cannot be born.

If Jesus Christ had been eternal before he showed up on earth, it would have been impossible for him to be born as a human.  In other words, he would have had to have been mortal from the get-go, before he even showed up on earth.

I will elaborate on Psalms 2:7 in a separate post.

NeutralZone



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". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. . . . " (James 1:19-20)

Though the term "trinity" is a doctrinal term, perhaps coined in the 3rd century by Constantine, it is used as a convenient way to refer to the triune nature of the Godhead. For Muslims, if you are adverse to the term, it's not necessary to use it, since it doesn't occur in Scripture.

However the substance of the "trinity" is evident through the hundreds of verses that describe the Son of God
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=611.0
and God the Father
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=610.0'
and God's Spirit
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2999.0

Peter:
Let me start off by saying that I am a Christian and that I have deep respect for the Judeo-Christian Bible.  I consider it to be the infallible word of Almighty God.

I clicked each of the weblinks you presented above, but none of the verses within those threads provide any confirmation that there is a triune god in the Judeo-Christian Bible.  If anything, your list of verses say the exact opposite.

For example, the verses in the first weblink simply confirm that Jesus Christ is the created Son of Jehovah the Father.  According to the Trinity doctrine, Jesus Christ the Son is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father.  None of the verses from your thread entitled: "The Son of God - Jesus Christ - Yeshua" thread confirm such.  In fact, three of the verses towards the top of that thread actually indicate that Jesus Christ is not eternal.  Below are those particular verses quoted directly from your thread.  Notice the words that I have bolded in red.

It is true scripture refers to sons of God in the Old Testament, missing THE prophesied Son of God in these (and other) Old Testament verses:

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

The words that I bolded in red at Isaiah 9:6 and Isaiah 7:14 indicate the Son, Jesus Christ, was getting ready to be born.  Being born indicates mortality.  It means the person had a beginning at some point.  An eternal person cannot have a beginning.

Likewise, Psalms 2:7 says the Son Jesus Christ was "begotten".  The word "begotten" refers to beings that were created at some point.  Someone who was "begotten" can never be considered eternal.

Similarly, the verses you referred to in the third weblink (your thread entitled "The Spirit of God") merely confirm that the holy spirit belongs to God the Father.  None of those verses suggest that the holy spirit is a person and that it is part of a triune God.

Let's discuss, while using the Judeo-Christian Bible as the authority.

NeutralZone


________________
". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. . . . " (James 1:19-20)