Islam, Muslim / Christian Forum - Welcome All

Not regarding the Islamic fables that were all created and put to the pen in the 8th to 10th centuries AD, regarding Islam's false claims of anything ever having gone on in Mecca prior to the 4th century when it was initially settled. To claim otherwise is demonstrably pure Islamic hogwash that Muhammad's followers are stuck labeling "tradition" since it is completely unhistorical. As further explored of your feeble efforts, in the subject of Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael that I split off at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4724.0

Response: Yet your Bible says otherwise, as your own Bible says Kedar is from Arabia (Isaiah 21:13-16), who is also the son of Ishmael (Genesis 25:13), which means Ishmael is also in Arabia. Additionally, since he also dwelt in the wilderness of Paran (Genesis 21:21), than means Mt. Paran is also in Arabia.

That means that the person mentioned in Deuteronomy 33:2 that comes from Mt. Paran with 10,000 followers and a law is Muhammad (saw) as he is the only person in history who is documented in doing so as mentioned in the Battle of the Trench.

So your own Bible confirms Muhammad is a true Prophet. Debunked as usual.

The verses you quoted while claiming the exact of what they indicate, as well as the 1400 year history of Islamic imperialistic conquest against non-Muslims at every opportunity that presented itself, clearly demonstrate what a conspicuously transparent lie you told. Defended themselves all the way up into Europe eigh? Defended themselves through 800 years of Hindu genocide in their imperialistic conquest of India eigh? The imperialistic conquest of Muhammad and then his followers in his wake, conquered nearly the whole "known world" during the Islamic first jihad, all the way up into France and Austria and down into Africa. Let alone that your own books make you a liar, and true non-hypocrite orthodox Muslims like Al-Bagdati would quickly point you - with the point of a sword to what they would identify as the lying throat of an Islamic hypocrite. It really is stunning how you can't see that your antichrist evil murderous cult comes straight out of the pit of hell.

Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

So do you believe that Hadith lied about Muhammad proclaiming he was ordered to fight against the people until they testify to that filthy blasphemy? Or do you belive it was Muhammad lying about being ordered to do that?

Response: Islam is based on the Qur'an and Sunnah, and the Qur'an clearly states not to fight those who are peaceful (8:61). So your impotent argument is refuted as usual.

Unlike your Jesus of the Bible, in which Jesus says he is against peace and brings a sword (Matthew 10:34). So you just exposed your trifling, disgraceful, warlord, violent Christian religion.

Try again.

You are done obfuscating. Is fighting and slaying "a promise binding" on Muhammad's followers "in the Quran", or is this surah a lie?

Surah 9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.
 
Of course that verse tells a filthy lie regarding the Gospel binding Christians to fight and slay, or the law binding Jews to fight and slay, but a literate person can see that according to the Quran it is a promise binding on Muhammad's true, fundamental, non-hypocrite, orthodox followers.

That I believe the quran is a pile of rubbish is completely irrelevant to this subject.
What hundreds of millions of Muslims believe about that verse, is what has robbed them of their humanity. That number would include you, unless of course you are willing to proclaim the verse lies about binding you to fight in his cause and slay. Certainly Islamic scholars like Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi don't have any trouble understanding that verse.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/the_islamic_state.htm

Let me embellish with a Hadith footnote:
http://falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#muslim_hypocrites

"Summarized Sahih Al-Bukhari" - Maktba Dar-us-Salam's page 580
Chapter 2. The best among the people is that believer who strives his utmost in Allah's Cause with both his life and property.
footnotes:
[1] "Al-Jihad (the holy fighting) in Allah's Cause (with full force of number and weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior, [His Word being La ilaha ill-Allah (which means: none has the right to be worshipped but Allah)] and His Religion (Islam) is propagated. By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and the Muslims fall into an inferior position; there honour is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim, and he who tries to escape from this duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfill this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite.
[2] Of course, nobody can offer Salat (prayer) and observe Saum (fast) incessantly, and since the Muslim fighter is rewarded as if he was doing such good impossible deeds, no possible deed equals Jihad in reward.

Satan through his messenger even commands his followers to fight and subjugate specifically Yahweh's "people of the book", that is, Jews and Christians:

Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Please reply without obfuscation. If you bring up another subject it will be split off and locked. No more wasting our mutual time. I will even suggest an additional threat of simply throwing a non-responsive or unrelated post out, to help you keep from wasting your time like that.

Is the verse quoted from the Quran a lie or is fighting and slaying a promise binding on you in the Quran?

Response: The verse, like all verses of fighting, refer to self-defense, as the Qur'an clearly states not to fight those who are peaceful (8:61).

Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 20, 2015, 08:11:50 AM

Maybe this will help. Here's an account from an Islamic website:
http://www.thekeytoislam.com/en/what-do-you-know-about-zamzam-well.aspx

"Abraham took Hagar and her son, Ishmael to a place near the Kabah; he left them under a tree at the site of Zamzam. No one lived in Makkah back then, yet Abraham made them sit there, leaving them with some dates, and a small water-skin. Thereafter he set out towards home."

Is that what you believe?

Since the cat's got your tongue because perhaps even you saw the inevitability of the answer, let me help you get over this hump as well.
According to that Islamic site Abraham took Hagar and Ishmael, to a place in the Arabian desert where there was only the Kaaba, and then went back home.
Sounds simple enough doesn't it?
But considering the actual, physical, demographic and geographical impossibility of that claim, the only thing that would seem simple is the mind of someone that would believe that specifically counter-scriptural and thus anti-God hogwash.

Abraham lived in Hebron, where even Muslims visit his grave today.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1306.0
Hebron is not that many miles north of the Wilderness of Beersheba, where Hagar wandered with Ishmael, after Abraham kicked them out of his house at his wife Sarah's request. The approximate locations are pinned on this graphic:
(and no my friend, in case you become tempted again, it is no more physically possible to move the locations of Jerusalem, Hebron or Beersheba, 1200 kilometers south to Mecca, than it would be to move Sinai, Assyria, Egypt, Paran, Havilah or Shur over 1000 kilometers south to Mecca):



So for the claim in that website to be true - for all of the Islamic so-called "tradition" that masquerades as thousands of years of pre-4th century history of Mecca, that was all created and put to the pen in the 8th to 10th centuries AD without reference to any actual historical record that dates before about the 6th century AD, to be true - Abraham would have had to have abandoned his wife Sarah, to wander across 1200 kilometers of harsh, barren, unexplored, uncharted desert with his wife Sarah's slave Hagar and son, to dump them off in an empty spot where Mecca was eventually built. Then according to that website he simply turned around and would have had to wander the 1200 kilometers back home to Hebron alone.
Even more comically, he would have been doing this well over a thousand years before the historical record informs us that overland travel was possible along the Red Sea in Arabia (the advent of which was around the 8th-6th century AD).

Wouldn't you agree that a person would have to be in appallingly abject ignorance to scripture, history, archaeology and particularly the demographic and geographical impossibility of that ridiculous counter-scriptural nonsense, in order to believe it?

Again I ask you my friend, do you believe any version of the impossible tale told in that Islamic website?

Response: I believe what your Bible confirms, which is Kedar is in Arabia (Isaiah 21:13-16), who is also the son of Ishmael (Genesis 25:13), which means Ishmael is in Arabia. And since Ishmael dwelt in the wilderness of Paran (Genesis 21:21), then Mt. Paran mentioned in Deuteronomy 33:2 is also in Arabia. And in Deuteronomy 33:2, it says someone from Mt. Paran, which is in Arabia, came with 10,000 followers and a law and the only person in history to do so is Muhammad in the battle of the trench.

Thus your own Bible confirms that Muhammad (saw) is a true Prophet.

Since the cat's got your tongue because perhaps even you saw the inevitability of the answer, let me help you get over this hump as well.
According to that Islamic site Abraham took Hagar and Ishmael, to a place in the Arabian desert where there was only the Kaaba, and then went back home.
Sounds simple enough doesn't it?
But considering the actual, physical, demographic and geographical impossibility of that claim, the only thing that would seem simple is the mind of someone that would believe that specifically counter-scriptural and thus anti-God hogwash.

Abraham lived in Hebron, where even Muslims visit his grave today.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1306.0
Hebron is not that many miles north of the Wilderness of Beersheba, where Hagar wandered with Ishmael, after Abraham kicked them out of his house at his wife Sarah's request. The approximate locations are pinned on this graphic:
(and no my friend, in case you become tempted again, it is no more physically possible to move the locations of Jerusalem, Hebron or Beersheba, 1200 kilometers south to Mecca, than it would be to move Sinai, Assyria, Egypt, Paran, Havilah or Shur over 1000 kilometers south to Mecca):



So for the claim in that website to be true - for all of the Islamic so-called "tradition" that masquerades as thousands of years of pre-4th century history of Mecca, that was all created and put to the pen in the 8th to 10th centuries AD without reference to any actual historical record that dates before about the 6th century AD, to be true - Abraham would have had to have abandoned his wife Sarah, to wander across 1200 kilometers of harsh, barren, unexplored, uncharted desert with his wife Sarah's slave Hagar and son, to dump them off in an empty spot where Mecca was eventually built. Then according to that website he simply turned around and would have had to wander the 1200 kilometers back home to Hebron alone.
Even more comically, he would have been doing this well over a thousand years before the historical record informs us that overland travel was possible along the Red Sea in Arabia (the advent of which was around the 8th-6th century AD).

Wouldn't you agree that a person would have to be in appallingly abject ignorance to scripture, history, archaeology and particularly the demographic and geographical impossibility of that ridiculous counter-scriptural nonsense, in order to believe it?

Again I ask you my friend, do you believe any version of the impossible tale told in that Islamic website?

Response: Yet your Bible shows otherwise, As kedar lives in Arabia (Isaiah 21:13-6), who is also the son of Ishmael (Genesis 25:13), which means Ishmael is in Arabia. And since Ishmael dwelt in the Wilderness of Paran (Genesis 21:21), then Mt. Paran is also in Arabia.

Therefore, the person coming from Mt. Paran in Arabia  with 10,000 followers and a law in (Deuteronomy 33:2) refers to Muhammad (saw) as he is the only person documented in history to do so.

Once again, your own Bible proves Muhammad (saw) is a Prophet.

I split off and locked the space you wasted and I had to wast in reply, while you were trying to avoid the prior question.
When  you joined the forum you agreed to engage in an exchange. If you do not reply to the question in the prior post, but engage in further obfuscation, it will be spilt off and added to that locked wasted posting.
Or even offered the unusual threat of simply being discarded, in order to preclude you from wasting your time composing a non-responsive or unrelated post, that could be thrown out.

Response: You did what is expected from a bias moderator, which you agreed you would not do. Then you see that your responses are being refuted, you create strawman questions that are irrelevant in an attempt to distract from the fact that your arguments have been refuted. Then when someone does not answer your strawman because it is irrelevant, you put on restrictions.

Putting restrictions on opposing views is bad moderation. Period. The purpose of debate is for people to express their DIFFERENT views in their DIFFERENT styles of presentation. So to restrict a person from doing so is not a discussion or a debate.

No, you only confirmed your abject ignorance to geography. While in Arabia, the wilderness of Paran and the Ishmaelites were in northern Arabia, still 1200 kilometers from where Mecca was eventually established nearly 2,000 years later. Let alone that a caravan route was not established from northern Arabia to southern Arabia until over a thousand years after Ishmael romaed the earth.

Now answer the question. Do you believe that Islamic site regarding Abraham taking Hagar and Ishmael to Mecca? Do you believe this Islamic site is lying or not?

http://www.thekeytoislam.com/en/what-do-you-know-about-zamzam-well.aspx

"Abraham took Hagar and her son, Ishmael to a place near the Kabah; he left them under a tree at the site of Zamzam. No one lived in Makkah back then, yet Abraham made them sit there, leaving them with some dates, and a small water-skin. Thereafter he set out towards home."

Response: Rather, you just continued to confirm your absurdity, for no historical document supports your view that that Ishmaelites were 1200 kilometers from Mecca. Not one. So you continue to sound foolish with your lies. Furthermore, Muhammad is a descendant of the Ishmaelites so your whole claim is clearly false.

Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 20, 2015, 07:01:50 PM

Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 20, 2015, 05:22:48 PM

I thought your challenge was why I didn't think it was binding on me to fight and slay to conquer and subjugate those that don't believe as I, the way Muhammad and Hitler and their reprobate followers did.
The scriptures of my great God Yahweh, make the Quran look like children's scribbling by comparison, but then that's because the Quran's illiterate author lacked the mental capacity to produce better.

Let's take an example chapter from the Old Testament scriptures of my great God Yahweh:

Psa 23:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. 3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. 4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. 5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. 6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Here's a New Testament chapter example:

1John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.    5  They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.   6  We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.    7  Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8  He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.    9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.    10  Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.    11  Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.    12  No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.    13  Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.    14  And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.    15  Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.   16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.    17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.    18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.    19  We love him, because he first loved us.   20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?    21  And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

While they talk about love, rather than the reprobate evil and violence we find in the Quran and Hadith, at least we can know they are words inspired by the one true God YHWH, as directly opposed to the exact opposite of the scriptures we find in the Quran, and the hatred the false prophet Muhammad fills his followers hearts with as manifest in his orthodox followers all around the world today.

Response: Yet if you take your own scripture and tried to inspire people to rule just the street you live on you would fail.

So sad that Satan has such a grip on you. My friend, over 6 million Muslims to come to know  the love of God through a relationship Jesus Christ every year, in Africa alone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdVnILalpeo

Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 20, 2015, 07:01:50 PM

meanwhile Muhammad used the Qur'an to conquer Arabia, ........

That is the most ridiculous, fattest, and most transparent lie you have told yet. Muhammad and his fellow reprobates  used the power of the sword to conquer Arabia.
Though your post did serve to further demonstrate your abject ignorance to history.

http://falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#islamic_first_jihad

From Islam's most highly regarded Hadith: Bukhari V4 B52 #73: Narrated 'Abdullah bin Abi Aufa: Allah's Apostle said, "Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords." (also #210 & #266)

Sahih Muslim B 20 #4681 The tradition has been narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah b. Qais. He heard it from his father who, while facing the enemy, reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Surely, the gates of paradise are under the shadows of the swords. A man in a shabby condition got up and said; Abu Musa, did you hear the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say this? He said: Yes. (The narrator said): He returned to his friends and said: I greet you (a farewell greeting). Then he broke the sheath of his sword, threw it away, advanced with his (naked) sword towards the enemy and fought (them) with it until he was slain. (also B 19 #4314)

No surprise then that young Muslim men travel to engage in foreign wars, and are so willing to blow themselves up in Islamic suicide bombings for the same reason suggested by the surviving Boston Marathon bomber, who actually believes his murderous brother is a "martyr" in "paradise". Lavished in Muhammad's promise of multiple virgins to defile, in the carnal chicken and wine serving bordello of Muhammad's overactive imagination, that he called paradise.

From several sources: "The Sword is the key of heaven and hell; a drop of blood shed in the cause of Allah, a night spent in arms, is of more avail than two months of fasting and prayer; whoever falls in battle, his sins are forgiven, and at the day of judgment his limbs shall be supplied by the wings of angels and cherubim."

The Power of the Sword:

623 - Battle of Waddan
623 - Battle of Safwan
623 - Battle of Dul-Ashir
624 - Muhammad and converts begin raids on caravans to fund the movement.
624 - Zakat becomes mandatory
624 - Battle of Badr
624 - Battle of Bani Salim
624 - Battle of Eid-ul-Fitr and Zakat-ul-Fitr
624 - Battle of Bani Qainuqa
624 - Battle of Sawiq
624 - Battle of Ghatfan
624 - Battle of Bahran
625 - Battle of Uhud. 70 Muslims are killed.
625 - Battle of Humra-ul-Asad
625 - Battle of Banu Nudair
625 - Battle of Dhatur-Riqa
626 - Battle of Badru-Ukhra
626 - Battle of Dumatul-Jandal
626 - Battle of Banu Mustalaq Nikah
627 - Battle of the Trench
627 - Battle of Ahzab
627 - Battle of Bani Quraiza
627 - Battle of Bani Lahyan
627 - Battle of Ghaiba
627 - Battle of Khaibar
628 - Muhammad signs treaty with Quraish.
630 - Muhammad conquers Mecca.
630 - Battle of Hunsin.
630 - Battle of Tabuk
632 - Muhammad dies.
632 - Abu-Bakr, Muhammads father-in-law, along with Umar, begin a military move to enforce Islam in Arabia.
633 - Battle at Oman
633 - Battle at Hadramaut.
633 - Battle of Kazima
633 - Battle of Walaja
633 - Battle of Ulleis
633 - Battle of Anbar
634 - Battle of Basra,
634 - Battle of Damascus
634 - Battle of Ajnadin.
634 - Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph.
634 - Battle of Namaraq
634 - Battle of Saqatia.
635 - Battle of Bridge.
635 - Battle of Buwaib.
635 - Conquest of Damascus.
635 - Battle of Fahl.
636 - Battle of Yermuk.
636 - Battle of Qadsiyia.
636 - Conquest of Madain.
637 - Battle of Jalula.
638 - Battle of Yarmouk.
638 - The Muslims defeat the Romans and enter Jerusalem.
638 - Conquest of Jazirah.
639 - Conquest of Khuizistan and movement into Egypt.
641 - Battle of Nihawand
642 - Battle of Ray in Persia
643 - Conquest of Azarbaijan
644 - Conquest of Fars
644 - Conquest of Kharan.
644 - Umar is murdered. Othman becomes the Caliph.
647 - Conquest of the island of Cypress
644 - Uman dies and is succeeded by Caliph Uthman.
648 - Campaign against the Byzantines.
651 - Naval battle against the Byzantines.
654 - Islam spreads into North Africa
656 - Uthman is murdered. Ali become Caliph.
658 - Battle of Nahrawan.
659 - Conquest of Egypt
661 - Ali is murdered.
662 - Egypt falls to Islam rule.
666 - Sicily is attacked by Muslims
677 - Siege of Constantinople
687 - Battle of Kufa
691 - Battle of Deir ul Jaliq
700 - Sufism takes root as a sect of Islam
700 - Military campaigns in North Africa
702 - Battle of Deir ul Jamira
711 - Muslims invade Gibraltar
711 - Conquest of Spain
713 - Conquest of Multan
716 - Invasion of Constantinople
732 - Battle of Tours in France.
740 - Battle of the Nobles.
741 - Battle of Bagdoura in North Africa
744 - Battle of Ain al Jurr.
746 - Battle of Rupar Thutha
748 - Battle of Rayy.
749 - Battle of lsfahan
749 - Battle of Nihawand
750 - Battle of Zab
772 - Battle of Janbi in North Africa
777 - Battle of Saragossa in Spain

Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 20, 2015, 07:01:50 PM

........ which is 50x better than you. Thus proving the Qur'an is the true word of Allah.

Response: As expected. When the deluded Christians see that they cannot answer the Qur'an challenge , they come up with the same sad excuses to try to justify the fact that they know they cannot answer it. As expected, you make the ridiculous claim that Muhammad used force. Then my next challenge is simple.

I challenge you to show that you can just simply out wrestle 5 people by yourself, or that any person can do it, from a hands-on eyewitness account. Once again, you will STILL fail and fail miserably. That means that since it is impossible for you to out wrestle five people by force, then it refutes your idiotic claim that Muhammad conquered a nation by force. Debunked again.

As usual, your failure to answer the challenge proves the Qur'an is the true word of Allah.

I thought your challenge was why I didn't think it was binding on me to fight and slay to conquer and subjugate those that don't believe as I, the way Muhammad and Hitler and their reprobate followers did.
The scriptures of my great God Yahweh, make the Quran look like children's scribbling by comparison, but then that's because the Quran's illiterate author lacked the mental capacity to produce better.

Let's take an example chapter from the Old Testament scriptures of my great God Yahweh:

Psa 23:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. 3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. 4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. 5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. 6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Here's a New Testament chapter example:

1John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.    5  They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.   6  We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.    7  Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8  He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.    9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.    10  Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.    11  Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.    12  No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.    13  Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.    14  And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.    15  Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.   16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.    17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.    18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.    19  We love him, because he first loved us.   20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?    21  And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

While they talk about love, rather than the reprobate evil and violence we find in the Quran and Hadith, at least we can know they are words inspired by the one true God YHWH, as directly opposed to the exact opposite of the scriptures we find in the Quran, and the hatred the false prophet Muhammad fills his followers hearts with as manifest in his orthodox followers all around the world today.

Response: Yet if you take your own scripture and tried to inspire people to rule just the street you live on you would fail. meanwhile Muhammad used the Qur'an to conquer Arabia, which is 50x better than you. Thus proving the Qur'an is the true word of Allah.

And for those followers of Muhammad that arrive in the future seeking the truth, and review what he quoted and then read his reply, it shouldn't be difficult to see what Muhammadanism and the spirit of antichrist does to a mind that might have otherwise possessed normal cognitive function.
And I'd like to express my appreciation for your help in this, Al-Fatihah.

Few posters have illustrated more than you have, why we finally had to institute forum rules that require members to engage in an exchange. But was answering yes or no to the last question even too embarrassing for you? Perhaps you didn't notice it, so let's try it again:

Here's an account from an Islamic website:
http://www.thekeytoislam.com/en/what-do-you-know-about-zamzam-well.aspx

"Abraham took Hagar and her son, Ishmael to a place near the Kabah; he left them under a tree at the site of Zamzam. No one lived in Makkah back then, yet Abraham made them sit there, leaving them with some dates, and a small water-skin. Thereafter he set out towards home."

Is that what you believe?

Response: In other words, your arguments were utterly flawed and exposed, as we see from your own Bible that Muhammad (saw) is a Prophet. YOUR Bible says Kedar is in Arabia (Isaiah 21:13-16). YOUR Bible says he is the son of Ishmael (Genesis 25:13) and YOUR Bible says Ishmael lived in the Wilderness of Paran (Genesis 21:21).

So if Kedar is in Arabia and he is the son of Ishmael then Ishmael is ALSO in Arabia. And if Ishmael lived in Paran then Paran is ALSO IN ARABIA.

THIS IS YOUR OWN BIBLE SAYING THIS,

So you continue to expose yourself and sound foolish. Stop embarrassing yourself and quit while you are behind.

Of course I can. Just like other Muhammadans that come here your mind has lost its capacity for critical thought. By your premise, I must believe that every single thing in the Quran and Hadith must necessarily be wrong, or never happened, because Muhammad was a false prophet. Can't even you see how ridiculous your premise is?

As I explained, I find that much of the content of the Quran and Hadith that exposes the reprobate nature of Muhammad and the pure evil of Islam whether true or not, is believable enough. Just as we can see through the behavior of true fundamental orthodox Muslims all around the world.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/the_islamic_state.htm

And because of Muhammad's doctrine of substitution, that he was compelled to institute because even he saw what a contradictory mess he had made of the Quran over the short span of just 23 years, a good rule of thumb is to conclude that all of the the earlier more peaceful "recitations" are thrown out, for the later suras in which Muhammad calls his followers to fight and slay non-Muslims, after Muhammad suffered what might well have been a psychotic break. Perhaps sparked by loosing Khadijah.


My friend, as you can see it is your argument that is not just illogical, but absolutely ridiculous.

Response: By my logic, you don't call a source reliable and unreliable at the same time, like your simple-mined logic says. Stating Muhammad (saw) said the verses were abrogated are true words, means Muhammad is truthful Then you say he is not a Prophet, which makes him untruthful So your logic is based on a contradiction, thus your weak argument of abrogation fails.

Speech and literature? That's ridiculous. You know as well as I that the formula is the same in Islam today as it was in Muhammad's day. If you leave Islam you are killed - just like the Mafia.
At least 9 Islamic states are still reprobate and barbaric enough to impose the death penalty by state statute for leaving Islam.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/death_penalty_apostasy.htm

For those in countries that do not impose the death penalty for leaving Islam, Muhammad's followrs face being disowned by their family and friends, shunned by their community, face loosing their job or may even be killed buy one of their own parents or other relatives.


No, because I'm not a Satan driven imperialistic reprobate like Muhammad, Hitler and Genghis Khan.


What you really mean is you lie to yourself about exactly how Muhammadanism has always been spread and maintained by force and the sword. Just as Muhammadan books indicate. Not only by killing Muslims for leaving Islam, but killing Muhammadans or anybody else, for speaking openly and honestly about Muhammad as he is revealed in Islam's own books.

At least 6 Islamic nation States are still reprobate and barbaric enough to impose the death penalty for so-called "blasphemy".
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/blasphemy_laws.htm

Sorry my friend, but you are sorely deluded. I follow the one true God YHWH (commonly said "Yahweh"), as he revealed Himself through all of the prophets and witnesses, in His 1600-year record to mankind, whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years. Christians are in Christ, and Christ in us.

While you follow the blasphemous, specifically counter-gospel exact opposite, through the stand-alone 23-year 7th century record, of THE murderous thief and false prophet Muhammad alone, through recycled and thinly veneered pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals, and specifically in the spirit of antichrist. Your choice, your fate.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm#index

Response: And once again we see you still fail to answer the challenge. As no where above do we see you make an attempt to produce a chapter like the Qur'an, thus supporting the fact that the Qur'an is not manmade, and comes from Allah. Debunked as usual.

Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 04:09:11 PM

Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 19, 2015, 03:10:21 PM

Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 02:02:52 PM

Quote from: PeteWaldo on August 19, 2015, 01:58:00 PM

Muslims indeed believe the quran is true. That is hundreds of millions of them believe it is Islam's job to rule the world. Why so many understand that to fight and slay as binding on them in the Quran. Of course the apostate hypocrites were afraid to, both in Muhammad's day, as well as throughout the next 1400 years.

Surah 2.216 fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

Well that's right. Muhammad's doctrine of substitution does not relate to me, because I know the Quran is filled with satanic lies, from the father of lies himself.
However Muslims do indeed believe the Quran is truth, so the doctrine of substitution is how sort out inoperative verses like the more peaceful drivel you posted. The rest of mankind are their victims.

Response: Yet is YOU who says the verse of abrogation says the verse in the Qur'an is cancelled. That means according to your logic, Muhammad is truthful ......

No, it means that Muhammadans believe it is truthful. It has nothing to do with logic.

Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 02:02:52 PM

...... since you claim he truly said those words, .........

What matters is what Muhammadans who follow him believe. And orthodox Muslims know those early more peaceful suras that you cite, are thrown out in favor of Muhammad's later, violent verses, that call his followers to "fight and slay" others as "binding" on them "in the Quran".

Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 02:02:52 PM

...... which means he is also truthful when he says he is a Prophet.

The Quran's lies are of no significance to anyone outside of Muhammadanism except, as they incite Muhammad's true orthodox followers, into their reprobate murderous behavior against the rest of us.

Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 02:02:52 PM

Yet you deny he is a Prophet, therefore, your logic of abrogation fails.

Debunked by your own logic.

Thus it is clear that Islam is peaceful as proven by the fact that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256), and it is prohibited to fight those who incline to peace (8:61).

Gwaffaw!!!!!!
Like 800 years of Islamic genocide perpetrated against Hindus in India!
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=4712.0
Like the Armenian genocide.
Like Muhammad's beheading of the innocent, peaceful, faithful Jewish farm boys of the Banu Qurayza and rape of their little sisters, mothers and grandmothers.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm#jesus_was_crucified
Let alone the reciprocal murder of Sunnis and Shiites.

And yes I do believe Islam's books when they detail the purely reprobate behavior of Muhammad. Like he and his boys rape of captive women:

Bukhari:V5B59N459 Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, "We went out with Allah's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus."

Bukhari B#62, #137 Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection."

Indeed most everything that demonstrates the pure evil of Muhammad and his followers is believable, because they follow Satan himself.

Response: You made the claim that it is true that Muhammad says the verse is abrogated, which means that your logic says Muhammad spoke the truth.

Already answered. The parts that demonstrate Islam's pure evil are believable enough. Even Muhammadans pick and choose what they like in the Quran and Hadith, while discarding what they don't like.

I choose to believe those parts that confirm what a moral reprobate Muhammad was.
You wishfully choose the parts from Muhammad's early Mecca days, that were thrown out and substituted, by his later verses to fight and slay others.

Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 04:09:11 PM

Yet you deny him when he says he is a Prophet, which makes him untrue.

Every Christian and Jew with the slightest clue as to the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind knows Muhammad was a STAND-ALONE false prophet.

Quote from: Al-Fatihah on August 19, 2015, 04:09:11 PM

Thus your argument for abrogation is also untrue according to your flawed logic. Debunked as usual. Try again.

Response: You claimed Muhammad (saw) said the verse was abrogated. Not me. So it is you logic that says Muhammad was truthful in his claim. Then you turn around and deny his Prophet which makes him untruthful. You cannot have it both ways. Thus exposing the inconsistency in your lgic and exposing your argument of abrogation is flawed. Debunked as usual. Try again.