Islam, Muslim / Christian Forum - Welcome All

“Your equating the soon to be rebuilt Jewish Temple in Jerusalem with the Temple of God is where you err.”

Your equating John Nelson Darby’s inverted pyramid of pile-on presumption to scripture is the error.

If not, where did you come up with the idea of a rebuilt temple in our future, through scripture?

Was Jesus’ ONE sacrifice for sins FOREVER, through which He built our perfect temple, so imperfect, unfinished and incomplete, that there will need to be another temple and a resumption of the old covenant and a restoration of animal sacrifice to satisfy you?

You jump from one thing to the next, while ignoring my replies that answer to your accusations.

“You also, without any firsthand knowledge of just what my beliefs are….”

Specifically not wanting to draw any conclusions is why I couched the post by describing not your but “futurist” errors in general, with which I am quite familiar, having been a futurist myself for several years.

Perhaps I am mistaken about you being a futurist, but I concluded you believe in a future 7-year tribulation, The Antichrist and “man of sin” as an individual sitting in a future rebuilt temple and such, since you wrote:

Peter Timmins's answer to What is the abomination of desolation that is referred to in the New Testament?

“When the AntiChrist goes into the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and declares himself to be god and demands that everyone worship him. This also is the event that undeniably reveals who the AntiChrist is unequivocally.”

Since I don’t have any knowledge of what you believe, why don’t you tell me what you believe the abomination of desolation is?

Where is the temple of God?

“This totally negates one of the central points of this view of eschatology.” (as a “salvation issue”?)

Not at all. Since when is Italy geographically not a part of the Roman empire, which had a long succession of rulers?

However the specifically counter-Gospel, antichrist, anti-religion founded by THE false prophet Muhammad arose out of the SW Arabian desert.

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus ….. but they killed him not, nor crucified him, ….. for of a surety they killed him not:-

Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

1 John 2:22 ..... He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.....

NOT a part of the Roman Empire. Which, with a couple hundred year interruption in the middle (still in the presence of Muhammad’s Islamic kingdom “beast”), has ruled John’s world for 1400 years (except for that tiny portion that the Jews were restored to, that protects a non-Muslim remnant through the democracy of the Israeli Jewish state). Perhaps you can see it more clearly graphically.



Islamic First Jihad



Islamic Second Jihad



Yet when futurists exegete John’s 8 beasts they dump the whole definition of “beast” as kingdoms - midstream - to define a beast as a man instead.

Your unchristian last couple of sentences are not surprising from a futurist, who may even perhaps hold it is also a “salvation issue” for him not to believe Margaret McDonald’s dream of being magically whisked away before a “great tribulation” that is reserved for some future someday. Thereby trivializing the suffering that our brothers and sisters in John’s “world” have been subject to, through some of the most horrific persecution in history, resulting in their having been virtually wiped out by today as that map shows.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

“A spokesperson for Christian Aid said, 'In front of the team leader and relatives in the crowd, the Islamic extremists cut off the fingertips of the boy and severely beat him, telling his father they would stop the torture only if he, the father, returned to Islam. When the team leader refused, relatives said, the ISIS militants also tortured and beat him and the two other ministry workers. The three men and the boy then met their deaths in crucifixion.' Eight other aid workers were separately executed for refusing to denounce their faith. In front of a crowd that was summoned to watch, two of the workers, women aged 29 and 33, were raped before all eight were beheaded."

From the Hoover Institute: "Few people realize that we are today living through the largest persecution of Christians in history, worse even than the famous attacks under ancient Roman emperors like Diocletian and Nero. Estimates of the numbers of Christians under assault range from 100-200 million." "And most of this persecution is taking place at the hands of Muslims. Of the top fifty countries persecuting Christians, forty-two have either a Muslim majority or have sizable Muslim populations."

MUSLIM PERSECUTION OF CHRISTIANS

Who may also believe “that man of sin” is about some future boogeyman of tomorrow, when through open eyes we can otherwise readily see his works right there in the temple of God today.

Who may believe “The Antichrist” is an individual also reserved for the future, the result of which is demonstrated by the “church” all over the Internet and in this forum defending the specifically counter-Gospel abomination of Islam as an “Abrahamic” religion, because futurist eschatology blinds them to the fact that there are 1.5 billion antichrists in Islam alone - as an article of their faith in THE false prophet Muhammad alone.

But who “crosses the line” when it comes to NON-figurative passages that ARE NOT open to interpretation, starting with (the blasphemy of?) suggestion there will be a renewal of the old covenant, when the scriptures tell us it waxeth away? Or believing a future temple could ever be sanctified - in order to be desolated - when Jesus is the ONE sacrifice for sin forever. Particularly when the scriptures tell us exactly where the temple of God is and where God will dwell forever. Let alone that God doesn’t dwell in temples made with hands.

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

The true tabernacle that the Lord built without hands.

Pete Waldo's answer to Where is the temple of God?

Rev 1:9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I am my brother John’s companion in “THE tribulation” (confirm the article with your G/E interlinear). A period of “great tribulation’ perhaps describing the 20th to 21st century with tens of millions killed, including in the holocaust. The 20th century considered the bloodiest and most destructive in history.

The kingdom of Jesus Christ is, and will remain, specifically not of this world:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

James Grant wrote: "With the deadly heresies entertained and taught by the Plymouth Brethren, in relation to some of the most momentous of all the doctrines of the gospel, and to which I have adverted at some length, I feel assured that my readers will not be surprised at any other views, however unscriptual and pernicious they may be, which the Darbyites have embraced and zealously seek to propagate"[16]

Why would futurists, who otherwise seem to love Jews, desire to:

1. Exclude Jews from the new covenant?

2. Cheer on a restoration of the old covenant that waxed away?

3. Suggest that Jesus' one sacrifice for sins forever was somehow so insufficient, incomplete and unfinished, that a resumption of animal sacrifices in the future would be appropriate or sanctified for any reason?

4. Take salvation through the Gospel away from Jews when it was specifically given to the Jew first?

5. Denigrate the temple that Jesus built in three days, by cheering on a future physical temple, made with hands?

6. Believe that God would dwell in a temple made with hands?

7. Believe such a temple could ever be consecrated, to then be desolated, when our high priest is seated in the true tabernacle that the Lord pitched, and rules in His kingdom today?

8. Reject the kingdom of Jesus Christ that arrived in the first century, to cheer on some future carnal kingdom of the flesh on earth, when Jesus told us His kingdom is specifically not of this world and is within us?

Could the answer to all those questions boil down to: John Nelson Darby's 19th century interpretation of the figurative language of Daniel's Old Testament prophetic dream?

Sound doctrine must obviously begin with literal verses in literal passages that are not open to interpretation, before even beginning to try to interpret, the figurative language of dreams and visions in prophecy.

Scofield’s reference bible of Darby’s futurism even says “The duration of the "time of the end" is three and one half years, coinciding with the last half of the seventieth week of Daniel. Daniel 7:25; 12:7; Revelation 13:5."

So by Scofield’s own indirect admission Darby couldn’t have possibly understood the book of Daniel, because God assured us it was sealed until the “time of the end”, which for futurists hasn’t begun yet!

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Compare that with the precision of Daniel’s prophecies through two parallel problems that span 2500 years, and pin the dates of 1948 and 1967 right to the year, in mathematical and textual perfection.

MATHEMATICAL PRECISION OF PROPHECY

So who’s understanding of the LITERAL passages that ARE NOT open to interpretation above, “maybe even crosses the line, for a Salvation issue”?

Do you know where your futurist eschatology came from?

AN END TIME MYTH

FUTURISM AND DISPENSATIONALISM

No, the New Testament contains too much prophecy for it all to be about Islam. But John told us the verses regarding antichrist began to be fulfilled in his day during the first century in which there were many antichrists. There are 1.5 billion in the world today in Islam alone. The false prophet Muhammad fulfilled his role in the 6th century and his Islamic kingdom beast antichrist followers ever since. All of the prophetic passages have not been fulfilled or I think you might agree we wouldn’t be here to have this exchange.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

By “elements” is meant elemental principles.

But what if rather than think Bible prophecy is about New York City we instead look at it as being about God’s people and the Middle East, the way strong’s suggests, and in light of John’s assignment.

whole world New Testament Greek Definition: 3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay}

1) the inhabited earth

1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians

1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire

John was assigned to Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

By 500 years later Christianity had spread throughout John’s whole “world”.



So let’s consider the false prophet Muhammad’s Islamic kingdom beast in conjunction with Daniel’s kingdom beasts as we look through the prophet John’s eyes and what HE had seen, and what are being the Roman Empire of his day, and those things after him.

Well it’s a historical matter of fact that the Roman Empire was conquered by the Islamic First Jihad. See

THE BEAST

and now John’s 8 kingdom “beasts

JOHN'S EIGHT BEASTS

Let’s look at this verse based on the above.

Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast {Islam - Muslim}, or the number {666} of his name.

OR the name of the beast. What does John’s virtually 100% Islamic “world” look like today?

Except for that tiny little strip of land where folks are protected by the democracy of the Israeli Jewish state, John’s whole world already carries the name of the false prophet Muhammad’s Islamic kingdom “beast” - Islam! Could this be a fulfilled prophecy? What do you suppose those great men of the Reformation I quoted earlier would think if they were here today?

This may well be setting up the greatest tragedy in the history of mankind yet the church doesn’t even seem able to see the urgency.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Not at all Peter, though those that hold preterist eschatology do believe they were. The eschatology I ascribe to is within the traditional historicist approach, of the first 1800 years of the church, including those great men of God of the Reformation. The 19th century popularized eschatologies of preterism and futurism necessarily place 1900 years of Christian era history off limits when considering prophecies of Revelation after chapter 3. Let alone that each group must consider the other to be virtually 100% in error in regard to their understanding of Revelation after chapter 3, because a gulf of 1900 years separates the two views. Isn’t that amazing? Consider what a few of the Reformers had to say about Revelation chapter 9

Of Revelation chapter 9: John Foxe who authored Foxe’s Book of Martyrs wrote that it is “clearer than light itself” as being a prophecy of the Muslim conquests.

Albert Barnes: “With surprising unanimity, commentators have agreed in regarding this to the empire of the Saracens (Muslims), or to the rise and the progress of the religion and the empire set up by Muhammed.”

W.B. Godbey: “This chapter is a thrilling description of the rise and progress of the Mohammedan wars.”

Of the locusts of Revelation 9: Adam Clarke: “certainly agrees better with the Saracens than with any other people or nation” and “agrees very well with the troops of Mohammed.”

Matthew Henry: “the armies of the Mohamedan empire.”

John Wesley: “All this agrees with the slaughter which the Saracens made for a long time after Mahomet’s death.”

Isn’t that surprising, in light of what the church teaches today?

If you want to see one study of New Testament Bible prophecy within this traditional continuous historic context, that is free and entertaining to read, please visit the following to “The False Prophet” by Ellis Skolfield. Here’s a link to chapter 1.

1 - THE GREAT DETECTIVE