71
Islam, Muslim / Christian Forum - Welcome All
"Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed." ~ William Blake
News:
Welcome to the forum!
Recent Posts
73
General Discussion / Quora forum subjects
« Last post by PeteWaldo on November 29, 2019, 12:37:33 PM »I've noticed this resource a couple of times in random internet searches, and it looks like fertile ground to communicate with Muhammad's followers, without too much censorship by admin.
https://www.quora.com
https://www.quora.com
74
General Discussion / Re: Why does Quran claim Abraham built the Kaaba when he never went anywhere near Me
« Last post by PeteWaldo on November 28, 2019, 09:31:37 AM »Hi Gregory. There are no Biblical sources that show evidence that Abraham ever went to Mecca. False presumptions doing equal evidence. Like Psalms 84 that is cited ad nauseum to suggest God’s people went on pilgrimage to Mecca when the passage place-pins the pilgrimage “in Zion”. That verse is usually edited out of Islamic accounts. Nor would it have been possible as overland travel to southern Arabia was not possible until the route was established in about the 6th century BC. Well over 1,000 years after Abraham roamed the earth. Let alone that the kaaba did not exist before Yemeni pagans initially built it in the early 5th century AD for Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship.
75
General Discussion / Why does Quran claim Abraham built the Kaaba when he never went anywhere near Me
« Last post by PeteWaldo on November 28, 2019, 09:10:39 AM »Dear Shau Sumar, your maps regarding the location of the Wilderness of Paran as Mecca are ridiculous. The following shows both the traditional and alternate considerations for the location of the Wilderness of Paran. Still over 1,000 KM from where Mecca was eventually established in about the 4th century AD.
Let alone that there is not a shred of evidence that supports the unhistorical, counter-scriptural, archaeologically devoid and geographically impossible accounts of Abraham in Islamic so-called “tradition”, that was all created and put to the pen during the 8th to 10th centuries AD without reference to any actual historical record that preceded the 5th century AD. Overland travel wasn’t even possible to southern Arabia until the 6th century BC, well over 1,000 years after Abraham roamed the earth.
GEOGRAPHY OF MECCA - ISLAM (http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca_islam.htm)
Let alone that there is not a shred of evidence that supports the unhistorical, counter-scriptural, archaeologically devoid and geographically impossible accounts of Abraham in Islamic so-called “tradition”, that was all created and put to the pen during the 8th to 10th centuries AD without reference to any actual historical record that preceded the 5th century AD. Overland travel wasn’t even possible to southern Arabia until the 6th century BC, well over 1,000 years after Abraham roamed the earth.
GEOGRAPHY OF MECCA - ISLAM (http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca_islam.htm)
76
General Discussion / Was there any evidence that Abraham was in Mecca and constructed the Kaaba apart
« Last post by PeteWaldo on November 28, 2019, 08:40:33 AM »https://www.quora.com/Was-there-any-evidence-that-Abraham-was-in-Mecca-and-constructed-the-Kaaba-apart-from-the-Koran
“There is only one 'GPS' area in the Bible which states where Ishmael and Hagar settled. The location of the Zam Zam well which is in Mecca.”
But that is a geographical impossibility since there was no overland route to southern Arabia until about the 6th century BC (well over 1,000 years after Ishmael), let alone that there is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before Yemeni migrants initially settled the area in about the 4th century AD and built their kaaba in the early 5th century AD for pagan Arabian moon, star and jinn-devil worship.
“The fact that no Jew, Christian, Pagan or anyone else ever contested that Abraham had built the Kaba during the time of the Prophet, and the fact that it was accepted as an agreed fact amongst everyone at the time, is the strongest proof amongst those who believe in Abraham that Abraham built the Kaba.”
That’s ridiculous. It is an impossibility. No Jew or Christian could ever do anything BUT CONTEST that Abraham built the Kaaba, unless they suffered from abject ignorance to scripture, history, archaeology and particularly geography.
GEOGRAPHY OF MECCA - ISLAM
To suggest Abraham built it would be to suggest that he abandoned his wife Sarah and son Isaac (in whom God made His covenant) in Hebron, to then take off with Sarah’s bondwoman Hagar and her son Ishmael (who Abraham actually threw out of his house at Sarah’s request), to wander across 866 miles of harsh, barren, waterless, foodless Arabian desert, over 1000 years before overland travel was possible to southern Arabia, only to dump off Hagar and Ishmael off in a deserted area and then turn around and wander back the 866 miles back up to his home and wife and son in Hebron. 866 miles before Hagar filled her water skin.
GEOGRAPHY OF MECCA - ISLAM
The reason the Islamic accounts can only be labeled as “tradition” is because Islam’s pre-4th century “history” of Mecca was all created and put to the pen in the 8th to 10th centuries AD, without reference to any actual historical record that preceded the 5th century AD (to be generous). It is an unhistorical, counter-scriptural, archaeologically devoid, geographically impossible, work of pure fiction.
“There is only one 'GPS' area in the Bible which states where Ishmael and Hagar settled. The location of the Zam Zam well which is in Mecca.”
But that is a geographical impossibility since there was no overland route to southern Arabia until about the 6th century BC (well over 1,000 years after Ishmael), let alone that there is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before Yemeni migrants initially settled the area in about the 4th century AD and built their kaaba in the early 5th century AD for pagan Arabian moon, star and jinn-devil worship.
“The fact that no Jew, Christian, Pagan or anyone else ever contested that Abraham had built the Kaba during the time of the Prophet, and the fact that it was accepted as an agreed fact amongst everyone at the time, is the strongest proof amongst those who believe in Abraham that Abraham built the Kaba.”
That’s ridiculous. It is an impossibility. No Jew or Christian could ever do anything BUT CONTEST that Abraham built the Kaaba, unless they suffered from abject ignorance to scripture, history, archaeology and particularly geography.
GEOGRAPHY OF MECCA - ISLAM
To suggest Abraham built it would be to suggest that he abandoned his wife Sarah and son Isaac (in whom God made His covenant) in Hebron, to then take off with Sarah’s bondwoman Hagar and her son Ishmael (who Abraham actually threw out of his house at Sarah’s request), to wander across 866 miles of harsh, barren, waterless, foodless Arabian desert, over 1000 years before overland travel was possible to southern Arabia, only to dump off Hagar and Ishmael off in a deserted area and then turn around and wander back the 866 miles back up to his home and wife and son in Hebron. 866 miles before Hagar filled her water skin.
GEOGRAPHY OF MECCA - ISLAM
The reason the Islamic accounts can only be labeled as “tradition” is because Islam’s pre-4th century “history” of Mecca was all created and put to the pen in the 8th to 10th centuries AD, without reference to any actual historical record that preceded the 5th century AD (to be generous). It is an unhistorical, counter-scriptural, archaeologically devoid, geographically impossible, work of pure fiction.
77
General Discussion / Is Becca in the Bible the Mecca?
« Last post by PeteWaldo on November 28, 2019, 08:13:16 AM »https://www.quora.com/Is-Becca-in-the-Bible-the-Mecca
Dear Zahir Omar, Abraham never traveled within 1,000 KM of where Mecca was eventually established in around the 4th century AD. He lived well over a thousand years before overland travel was possible between northern and southern Arabia. There is not a shred of scriptural, historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever even existed before migrants from Yemen initially settled the area in around the 4th century AD, and built their Kaaba in the early 5th century for pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship.
The scriptures tell us that Hagar wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba, which is about 20 miles from Abraham’s home in Hebron where Jews, Christians and Muslims visit Abraham’s tomb to this day. That is where hagar found the well to fill her waterskin (likely the “well of seven” that Abraham dug). To suggest that it was the well of Zamzam in Mecca, would be to suggest the absurd notion that Hagar wandered 866 miles (by driving roads today), across harsh, barren, waterless, foodless desert, about 1300 years before overland travel to southern Arabia was possible (~6th century BC).
Additionally you are parroting a falsehood about Psalms 84. The passage is very specific about where the pilgrimage is to.
Psa 84:7 They go from strength to strength, every one of them in Zion appeareth before God.
In ZION. That is the name of the easternmost hill in Jerusalem. The pilgrimage referenced is about Yahweh’s people on pilgrimage to the temple Yahweh had them build on Mt. Moriah in Jerusalem. In THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs. For more try visiting http://www.historyofmecca.com
Dear Zahir Omar, Abraham never traveled within 1,000 KM of where Mecca was eventually established in around the 4th century AD. He lived well over a thousand years before overland travel was possible between northern and southern Arabia. There is not a shred of scriptural, historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever even existed before migrants from Yemen initially settled the area in around the 4th century AD, and built their Kaaba in the early 5th century for pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship.
The scriptures tell us that Hagar wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba, which is about 20 miles from Abraham’s home in Hebron where Jews, Christians and Muslims visit Abraham’s tomb to this day. That is where hagar found the well to fill her waterskin (likely the “well of seven” that Abraham dug). To suggest that it was the well of Zamzam in Mecca, would be to suggest the absurd notion that Hagar wandered 866 miles (by driving roads today), across harsh, barren, waterless, foodless desert, about 1300 years before overland travel to southern Arabia was possible (~6th century BC).
Additionally you are parroting a falsehood about Psalms 84. The passage is very specific about where the pilgrimage is to.
Psa 84:7 They go from strength to strength, every one of them in Zion appeareth before God.
In ZION. That is the name of the easternmost hill in Jerusalem. The pilgrimage referenced is about Yahweh’s people on pilgrimage to the temple Yahweh had them build on Mt. Moriah in Jerusalem. In THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs. For more try visiting http://www.historyofmecca.com
78
General Discussion / Was there any evidence that Abraham was in Mecca and constructed the Kaaba apart
« Last post by PeteWaldo on November 28, 2019, 08:05:26 AM »https://www.quora.com/Was-there-any-evidence-that-Abraham-was-in-Mecca-and-constructed-the-Kaaba-apart-from-the-Koran
Hi Charles, the scriptures don’t seem to be “cryptic” but very specific about where the pilgrimage mentioned in Psalms 84 is to.
Psa 84:6 Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools. 7 They go from strength to strength, every one of them in Zion appeareth before God.
In ZION. The name of the easternmost hill in Jerusalem upon which the city of David was built. Another name for Jerusalem that occurs 152 times in the KJV. This was obviously a pilgrimage of Yahweh’s people to the temple He had them build on Mt. Moriah in Jerusalem. In THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs.
To suggest it is to where Mecca was eventually established, would be to suggest that instead of God’s people worshiping Him in the land and at the temple He had them build, they instead turned their backs on that temple and wandered over 900 miles across harsh, barren, waterless, foodless Arabian desert, over 1,000 years before overland travel to southern Arabia was possible (in about the 6th century BC). This only to march around a kaaba (that did not exist until about the 5th century AD, located in a town (Mecca) that did not exist until about the 4th century AD when Yemeni migrants first established the town) and then they are supposed to have wandered the 900 miles back home?!
Try http://www.historyofmecca.com
Hi Charles, the scriptures don’t seem to be “cryptic” but very specific about where the pilgrimage mentioned in Psalms 84 is to.
Psa 84:6 Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools. 7 They go from strength to strength, every one of them in Zion appeareth before God.
In ZION. The name of the easternmost hill in Jerusalem upon which the city of David was built. Another name for Jerusalem that occurs 152 times in the KJV. This was obviously a pilgrimage of Yahweh’s people to the temple He had them build on Mt. Moriah in Jerusalem. In THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs.
To suggest it is to where Mecca was eventually established, would be to suggest that instead of God’s people worshiping Him in the land and at the temple He had them build, they instead turned their backs on that temple and wandered over 900 miles across harsh, barren, waterless, foodless Arabian desert, over 1,000 years before overland travel to southern Arabia was possible (in about the 6th century BC). This only to march around a kaaba (that did not exist until about the 5th century AD, located in a town (Mecca) that did not exist until about the 4th century AD when Yemeni migrants first established the town) and then they are supposed to have wandered the 900 miles back home?!
Try http://www.historyofmecca.com
79
General Discussion / Re: We ask Muslims: Are Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi & Islamic State doing God's bidding?
« Last post by PeteWaldo on November 18, 2019, 04:34:43 PM »This is now a moot point for Abu Bakr al-Baghdad in this life since he has gone to meet the One who truly knows the answer.
Let alone his judge:
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
The very Son of God Muhammad's followers are compelled to deny, because of their faith in Muhammad alone.
80
General Discussion / Re: We ask Muslims: Are Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi & Islamic State doing God's bidding?
« Last post by mightymouse on November 18, 2019, 03:00:16 PM »This is now a moot point for Abu Bakr al-Baghdad in this life since he has gone to meet the One who truly knows the answer. Those remaining followers or terrorists who still adhere to the doctrine and methods of the Quran expressed by the Islamic State should now consider their own fate and ask themselves if they believe Mr. al-Baghdadi met with a warm welcome (maybe warm is the wrong term to use here) - whether he met with a hero's welcome or judgment and damnation would be the more appropriate question to consider.
The Holy Bible presents God as Love while the Quran claims to represent God by expressing rage, anger, and hatred toward anyone who does not agree and obey the teachings of Allah as handed down to Muhammad. But Jesus said a tree is known by its fruit. Judging by the fruit of the tree of Islam, I would not want to stand before the One True God of Creation and have the fruit of a life lived to hate, murder and destroy as my bouquet of flowers to lay at His feet as representative of what my life produced.
The Holy Bible presents God as Love while the Quran claims to represent God by expressing rage, anger, and hatred toward anyone who does not agree and obey the teachings of Allah as handed down to Muhammad. But Jesus said a tree is known by its fruit. Judging by the fruit of the tree of Islam, I would not want to stand before the One True God of Creation and have the fruit of a life lived to hate, murder and destroy as my bouquet of flowers to lay at His feet as representative of what my life produced.