Here is a sample
Islamic site regarding Islamic "history" that was created in the 7th and 8th centuries:
"Abraham took Hagar and her son, Ishmael to a place near the Kabah; he left them under a tree at the site of Zamzam. No one lived in Makkah back then, yet Abraham made them sit there, leaving them with some dates, and a small water-skin. Thereafter he set out towards home."So then apparently Abraham and Hagar, carrying Ishmael (Muslims believe he was an infant), wandered across a thousand miles of unknown, uncharted desert, over 900 years before history records the first caravan route was ever established along the Red Sea. Then Abraham dropped them off under a tree in the middle of nowhere (that is supposed to have eventually become Mecca), and then Abraham "set out" on his thousand mile walk back home. Anything seem a bit peculiar about that picture?
More
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1277.0___________________________________
Responses to this unanswerable question by Muslims, in Muslim forums and elsewhere.
http://revertmuslims.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4848http://whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26302http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org/christianity/5254-abraham-hagar-ishmael.htmlfriendofutube2009 (1 week ago)
Lack of evidence DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN there wasn't something! The New World has been existing without evidence before Europeans discovered it.
Other evidences for Meccas existence: Archaeological - Today, Christian archeologists proved from the Bible that Mecca does exist. Google "the search for the real mt sinai" and see video. Biblical - Desert of Paran is Mecca (Gen21:19-22) where Abraham sent Hagar & Ishmael. Paran is south of Sinai (Deut33:2). Google "The teaching of Paul is so clear, that we could locate Mt. Sinai".
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First argument is great! Mecca is supposed to have been the center of Islam since Abraham - even since Adam - but for some strange reason does not appear in the historical or archaeological record prior to the 4th century AD, even though even tiny towns, that came and went within a few centuries, are recorded. Where are the artifacts? With Mecca eventually being built along one of the most established trading routes in Arabia, along which other cities are well testified, and even testify of each other through the historical record, where is the record of Mecca before the 4th century? It isn't - because Mecca wasn't.
Next argument is even better. There is, of course tons of evidence of the original inhabitants in the New World even though they were nomadic. One can't plow a field without turning up arrow heads. There are many archaeological digs that evidence how the residents of the past lived. They left behind burial mounds and such.
Third argument - the Wilderness of Paran is NORTH of Mount Sinai, and where Mecca was eventually built in the 4th century is 1,000 km to the SOUTH of Mount Sinai.
From Dr. Amari
"Numbers 10:12
And the children of Israel took their journeys out of the wilderness of Sinai; and the cloud rested in the wilderness of Paran.It is clear from this verse that Paran is part of Sinai. It's the closest wilderness to the Mount of Sinai. When some Islamic writers read in the Bible that Ishmael lived in the Wilderness of Paran, they try to convince their followers, called Muslims, that Paran is Mecca. But the bible is clear. It identifies Paran as part of Sinai, close to Mount Sinai."
More on Paran, Hagar and Ishmael
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1167.0______________________________
Another
"In your video, you stated that there is no archeological records that show the Kaaba being built before the 4th or 5th century. My question to you is, if there are none does that mean it never existed? Isn't this a similar argument that non-Christians, mainly Jews and atheists use when telling you that there was no record of Jesus (as)?"
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My answer was of course that it was not at all the same.
A "similar argument" would be if Jews and Christians were informed that there was no historical or archaeological EVIDENCE that demonstrates that Jerusalem - the geographical epicenter of Judaeo/Christian beliefs - ever existed before the 4th century AD.
But of course the ancient city and it's water tunnels, the 3000 year old
temple mount, the abundance of historical and archaeological record with a million artifacts just on display, testify otherwise, let alone the record in the scriptures.
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One from our Mufti friend np
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1179.msg4620#msg4620"IF PAGANWALDO ASKS DID MECCA EXIST BEFORE 4TH CENTURY AD , HE MUST GIVE ME THE ANSWER WITH HISTORICAL AND ARCHAEOLOGICAL PROOFS DID JESUS CHRIST EXIST EVER OR HE IS BASED ONLY ON THE CHRISTIAN BOOKS WHICH ARE NOTHING BUT FABLES!
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You are confusing two things. Mecca IS A PLACE. The equivalent would be for me to prove that JERUSALEM existed. That epicenter of Judeo/Christian geography is perhaps the most historically attested place on earth, both through historical and archaeological RECORD.
But MECCA? Supposedly the epicenter of Islam since Adam? NOTHING. ZILTCH.
The history of Mecca before the 6th century AD is ONE BIG LIE made up by Ibn Ishak, that others simply repeated.
watch?v=LWCiNKxVsrE
But you didn't answer to my most important point.
Do you really believe that Hagar traveled through 1,000 miles of uninhabited, uncharted, untraveled, barren, desert wasteland with one skin of water, only to arrive in Mecca, which would even have been the bleakest, driest and most barren place along the whole trip?
Or did she take a flying camel there like Mohammed commuted to Jerusalem on?
Or perhaps Ali Baba's carpet!
HOW WAS HAGAR SUPPOSED TO HAVE TRAVELED 1,000 MILES THROUGH THE DESERT?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1167.0http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1168.0~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
YOU MUST KNOW THAT FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD ALLAH /YHWH CHOSE THAT PLACE WHERE NOW IS MECCA AND MEDINA !
AND ISHMAEL/ISMAEL THEY WERE THERE ( IF YOU ARE ASKING ME HOW THEY WERE THERE HOW THEY WALKED 1000 MILES OR 10000 MILES MY ANSWER WILL BE TO EXPLAIN TO ME HOW JESUS WAS BORN ? ) THE WELL OF ZAMZAM WATER IS THERE AND THAT WATER IS DOING MIRACLES TILL TODAY , AND IT IS NEEDLESS TO GIVE YOU PROOFS ABOUT THAT GREAT FACT THERE WERE SO MANY MIRACLES DONE ! ALSO I WANT TO MENTION HERE THE OPINION OF THE GREEK ORTHODOX PRIEST VANGELOS ABOUT YOU , HE SAID YOU ARE NUMBER ONE ENEMY OF? THE CHRISTIANITY !
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So the way to explain how Hagar and Ishmael wound up in Mecca is that it is a miracle - like Jesus being born of a virgin. Where is this miracle described in the Quran or the Bible? Jesus virgin birth was prophesied in the Old Testament and
witnessed when it was fulfilled in the New Testament.
To our Muslims friends, if it appears that I am selecting weak arguments, I am not. I am selecting the ONLY arguments that have been presented. Regarding Paran, Baca, etc., those are covered on their own threads. We will accept all arguments. If you have EVIDENCE that contradicts this forum section, please, please, present it.
