Misunderstanding of Authority

[Peter]

Seems that the more misunderstood authority is in the church, the greater the error.  That is when men appoint other men, or men appoint themselves to be in positions of authority.  Great reads on this subject are Frank Viola's "Rethinking the Wineskin" and
"Pagan Christianity". http://www.paganchristianity.org/

Please visit the board on Roman Catholicism. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=7.0
Partucularly the thread on auricular confession. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=425.0

The Catholic Church perhaps demonstrating the greatest error, whether the Papal persecutions and killing of millions of Jews, Muslims AND Christians, some being burned at the stake, or the difficulties with clergy today. Try a yahoo search - catholic lawsuit million.

Subject is explored further on this link.

Ask someone in the parking lot of your church next week "Who's the head of this church?"
Do you think the answer they give you will be "Jesus Christ"?

[revlar]

Ask someone in the parking lot of your church next week "Who's the head of this church?"
Do you think the answer they give you will be "Jesus Christ"?

It would depend, of course, upon who you ask - but I believe most of my parishioners would answer correctly.  In many cases, an incorrect answer would be the result of a confusion in understanding the differences between "authority" and "leadership".  Ours being a congregationally ruled church, there would be a natural tendency to perceive such a question as an inquiry regarding an issue of administrative "leadership" rather than from the perspective of "authority" as used in scripture.  Should the question be answered from the perspective of "spiritual leadership", you likely would be given the name of the president of the elders - or the name of the pastor.   

Protestants are certainly not immune from the tendency to set up men as the bestowers of "authority".  What is a denominationally sanctioned ordination but a human determined and administered conferring of "authority" upon a candidate?  We may wrap it in ritual and reverent invoking of the name of the Almighty - but it is still a ritual that has been created and conducted by men - based upon a decision regarding qualifications that has been reached by men.

In my view, an equally interesting question would be to ask a clergyman to justify by what "authority" he does what he does.

[Peter]

In my view, an equally interesting question would be to ask a clergyman to justify by what "authority" he does what he does.

Whatever he answers, his authority will have generally been assigned to him by other men in seminary, who also misunderstand that Jesus Christ is still the head of the church. I highly recommend "Pagan Christianity" by Frank Viola.
http://www.paganchristianity.net/
Also "Reimagining Church" that explores the organic church movement.
http://www.reimaginingchurch.org/

[Martin]

Rev_8:12  And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
 
Rev_9:2  And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Mat_24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Act_2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
1Th_5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.



The question is: has the day of the Lord arrived? Are we at present living in this Day?
Well, the tribulation ended in 1948. There is no future tribulation- no pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib rapture.
Combining the above portions of Scripture surely indicates the possibility that we are indeed living in the day of the Lord.
“…the moon shall not give her light”. Doesn’t this refer to the modern Laodicean age?
Personally I find what I see in the Church extremely alarming and difficult to bear with. How far we have moved from the true biblical model of “church” or ecclesia or congregation. Have you ever attended a gathering of believers where all proceedings were led by the Holy Spirit? I haven’t!
Should we accept the status quo or speak up?
Joh_4:23  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
There’s so much spirit but where’s the truth? Does the truth apply when spoken in a humanly devised framework
2Co_11:4  For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Who is this “another Jesus”?
Has the moon become so darkened that the church is proclaiming ‘another Jesus’?
Is there still power in the Christian witness?
I personally believe the spiritual conditions on this planet is at an all time low.
Has the following verse been fulfilled?
ev_16:8  And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Can this refer to the true gospel being told in the face of fierce opposition?

I’m concerned about Islam and other false religions but what troubles me most is how Christians love deceptions, false teachers, false doctrine, etc…! Isn’t this how the adversary is enthroned inside the temple of God? Can it be a form of luciferianism posing as Christianity? Have the church found another rock?
Mat_16:18  And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Would God allow this to go on?
Are we on the brink of the last hour of ‘this generation’?
Are we in the day of the Lord?

[PeteWaldo]

Rev_8:12  And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
 
Rev_9:2  And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Mat_24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Act_2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
1Th_5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.



The question is: has the day of the Lord arrived? Are we at present living in this Day?
Well, the tribulation ended in 1948. There is no future tribulation- no pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib rapture.
Combining the above portions of Scripture surely indicates the possibility that we are indeed living in the day of the Lord.
“…the moon shall not give her light”. Doesn’t this refer to the modern Laodicean age?
Personally I find what I see in the Church extremely alarming and difficult to bear with. How far we have moved from the true biblical model of “church” or ecclesia or congregation. Have you ever attended a gathering of believers where all proceedings were led by the Holy Spirit? I haven’t!

Nor have I however the organic church and such groups meet as described in "Reimagining Church". They also list some groups. There may be one in your area.

Should we accept the status quo or speak up?
Joh_4:23  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
There’s so much spirit but where’s the truth? Does the truth apply when spoken in a humanly devised framework
2Co_11:4  For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Who is this “another Jesus”?
Has the moon become so darkened that the church is proclaiming ‘another Jesus’?
Is there still power in the Christian witness?
I personally believe the spiritual conditions on this planet is at an all time low.
Has the following verse been fulfilled?
ev_16:8  And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Can this refer to the true gospel being told in the face of fierce opposition?

I’m concerned about Islam and other false religions but what troubles me most is how Christians love deceptions, false teachers, false doctrine, etc…! Isn’t this how the adversary is enthroned inside the temple of God?

Like "that man of sin" that "sitteth in the temple of God" and "opposeth"?
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/man_of_sin.htm#who_opposeth

Here's an eyeful:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBpw2oQrvMM

Can it be a form of luciferianism posing as Christianity? Have the church found another rock?
Mat_16:18  And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Would God allow this to go on?
Are we on the brink of the last hour of ‘this generation’?
Are we in the day of the Lord?

I think the day of the Lord may be a single day, or it may be about 15 days in day-year language. We probably won't have to wonder if it's here when it arrives:

Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. 19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.

Though just now I can see a metaphorical sense in that sin and Godlessness is around every corner and there are few places to turn that aren't steeped in it. Snares and traps everywhere.

[Martin]

In reply to:
Amo 5:19  As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.

I sincerely believe this portion of scripture refers to the spiritual conditions we are living in at present:

because of the deception in virtually all corners of society, one flees from something you believe to be wrong, only to be met by another deception, then trying to find solace, you put your trust in something else, only to be bitten by some diabolical teaching.

this verse certainly explains the wretched and dark spiritual conditions on earth right now.

when Jesus was asked by his disciples: 

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you."