Author Topic: Is the "pre-trib" "rapture" scriptural?  (Read 6179 times)

Peter

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Is the "pre-trib" "rapture" scriptural?
« on: April 04, 2008, 06:40:00 PM »
How is it that the church missed this doctrine, over the 1800 years prior to it leaving the pen of John Nelson Darby, in the mid-19th century?

WHAT DOES SCRIPTURE SAY ABOUT THE GATHERING OF THE ELECT?
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm

Are Christians supposed to be looking for our blessed Savior's return, or our own personal exit?  Isn't it our job to be here?
John 17:15  I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

I will be humbly honored to remain my brother John's fellow partaker in THE tribulation and in THE kingdom (of God) and endurance of Jesus Christ:
(NASB): Revelation 1:9  I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance {which are} in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Revelation 1:9 |  egw  <1473> {I}  iwannhV  <2491> {JOHN,}  o  <3588> {WHO}  kai  <2532> {ALSO}  adelfoV  <80> {BROTHER}  umwn  <5216> {YOUR}  kai  <2532> {AND}  sugkoinwnoV  <4791> {FELLOW PARTAKER}  en  <1722> {IN}  th  <3588> {THE}  qliyei  <2347> {TRIBULATION}  kai  <2532> {AND}  en  <1722> {IN}  th  <3588> {THE}  basileia  <932> {KINGDOM}  kai  <2532> {AND}  upomonh  <5281> {ENDURANCE}  ihsou  <2424> {OF JESUS}  cristou  <5547> {CHRIST,}....

 1 Corinthians 15:51-52  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,  52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

At the last trump.  Not a few trumps before the last but at the last trump, and if there is any THEY group I am pretty confident I would not want to be in it.

 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

"Note the WE [again]. Paul was speaking to the Church of which he was part and we have every scriptural reason to believe that we also includes us. You and I and the rest of the church are the WE."

And the Olivet Discourse again demonstrates the order:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet [a great trumpet, NASB], and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

(1) Great tribulation.
(2) After the tribulation.
(3) Son of man coming
(3) Great trumpet
(5) Gather together elect

Seems the book of Matthew would have to be rewritten to support more than one gathering of the elect.

Look at 1 Thess 4:16 again: "...the Lord shall descend from heaven..."  

How many second comings are we to expect?

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 1 Thessalonians 4:16 "...with the voice of the archangel..."  

Revelation 10:7   But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Revelation 11:15  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 16:17  And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 "... trump of God..."

 1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,..."

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet [a great trumpet, NASB], and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Olivet Discourse appears to be organized as:

Verses 1-14 describe the events of 70 AD and the historical realities we are witness to, and close in verse 14 with "and then shall the end come".  
Verses 15-31 describe this "end" through events leading up to the Second Coming, and close with the coming of the Son of man and the gathering of the elect.
Verses 32-37 describe how we are to know it is the time of the end and close with the coming of the Son of man.
Verses 38-41 describe what the times will be like when this event takes place, and close with the coming of the Son of man and the gathering of the elect.
Verses 42-51 describe how we should prepare ourselves for this event, and close with the Second Coming and God's wrath on those left behind in verse 41.

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm

Peter

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Re: Is the "pre-trib" "rapture" scriptural?
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2009, 08:53:52 AM »
It's interesting to note that this thread seems to have one of the highest volumes of views in this forum, just as pre-trib rapture threads do in most Christian forums. In other forums they can range into the tens of thousands of rancorous posts. Yet nobody has posed a scriptural defense of this widely held doctrine in over a year.

If you wonder if it's the quiet nature of this forum, I posted an almost identical thread in a quite active forum in which many hold this doctrine here:
http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=46259

You can see the result is the same. Nobody willing to step up to the plate in support.
This is the same reason that there is absolutely predatory "administration" at raptureready.com that are on you like a 2 dollar suit if you post anything even remotely disagreeing. The reason is it is an unsupportable, 19th century, pop-doctrine penned by a guy named John Nelson Darby.

Try copy and pasting the thread that I put in fulfilledprophecy.com, at raptureready.com, yourself.
You are more than welcome to copy and paste this into any Christian forum and see what happens.
If you first press the "quote" function, you can copy and paste with the HTML tags, but they may vary from forum to forum in regard to tags for color and font size.

Or try this. Go to raptureready and post the above, but use only the bible verses, without ANY other words, and see what happens.

resistingrexmundi

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Re: Is the "pre-trib" "rapture" scriptural?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2011, 11:44:09 AM »
This was shown to me as I was conversing with a pre-tribber on facebook. I was pointing out to this young man that a pre-trib rapture is an untenable position due to 1 Corinthians 15:52

1Cr 15:52    In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

If this is indeed the last trump how can their be 7 more after it? That is a common objection here and to date no one has been able to explain it away. I even had one guy tell me, "That's too simple." But in my conversation with the young man mentioned above something was revealed to me. There is a biblical principle that all too often is overlooked here.

Mat 5:13    Â¶    Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Jesus told His disciples that they were the salt of the earth. We are called in like manner. What is the nature of salt in the ancient world? How was it used as it applies in the above verse? Salt is a PRESERVATIVE. We are called to preserve the societies we are called to minister in. So, given the pre-trib rapture why would God call His preservative out of the world at its' most desperate hour? 
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon