Author Topic: Kingdom of God  (Read 11800 times)

Peter

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Kingdom of God
« on: April 04, 2008, 06:34:39 PM »
I recently revisited the following verse after noticing the result for a search of kingdom of God.

Rev 1:9  I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

My understanding had been that this verse referred to the kingdom of Jesus Christ.  But after doing the search for Kingdom of God I wondered if that verse isn't supposed to be also understood as "...and in the kingdom [of God] and patience of Jesus Christ,...".

Revelation 1:9 |  egw  <1473> {I}  iwannhV  <2491> {JOHN,}  o  <3588> {WHO}  kai  <2532> {ALSO}  adelfoV  <80> {BROTHER}  umwn  <5216> {YOUR}  kai  <2532> {AND}  sugkoinwnoV  <4791> {FELLOW PARTAKER}  en  <1722> {IN}  th  <3588> {THE}  qliyei  <2347> {TRIBULATION}  kai  <2532> {AND}  en  <1722> {IN}  th  <3588> {THE}  basileia  <932> {KINGDOM}  kai  <2532> {AND}  upomonh  <5281> {ENDURANCE}  ihsou  <2424> {OF JESUS}  cristou  <5547> {CHRIST,}  egenomhn  <1096> (5633) {WAS}.....

The exact phrase "Kingdom of God" is used 69 times, and in the New Testament only.   Though Old Testament verses indicate it but not that exact phrase.  A search for "kingdom of Jesus" returns no results.

[edit add 2-19-17] However, on a quick review (please check for me), all of those verses were spoken by Jesus, prior to His crucifixion, while John's verse is after and penned by John. Which seems to put us back into the Jesus Christ is God.

Though understanding it as the kingdom of God, could help us extend our hands to our Jewish Brethren as well, including those that may remain sovereignly blinded.

Peter

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Re: Kingdom of God
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2008, 05:42:19 PM »
Another verse to consider:

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

The Father and the Son are one, so it really is a moot point.

Peter

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Re: Kingdom of God
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2008, 01:31:23 PM »
Yet another verse:

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The opposite of the kingdoms that Islam has lusted after for 1400 years:

Luk 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

The kingdoms of this world have been satan's legal possession ever since Adam's fall.

Cephyr13

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Re: Kingdom of God
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2009, 04:04:53 PM »
I assumed that the kingdom of heaven (or just heaven) is the entire spiritual world. But kingdom of heaven seems to be the same as kingdom of God. Just haven't done enough research on this yet to know for sure. What's your view on this?

Peter

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Re: Kingdom of God
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2009, 08:30:30 PM »
I assumed that the kingdom of heaven (or just heaven) is the entire spiritual world. But kingdom of heaven seems to be the same as kingdom of God. Just haven't done enough research on this yet to know for sure. What's your view on this?

Thanks for the contribution. On a quick review I am inclined to agree (at least the spiritual world of God and His people):
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=%22kingdom+of+heaven%22&t=KJV&sf=5

Cephyr13

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Re: Kingdom of God
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2009, 09:40:03 AM »
I think God's showed me a new way to look at this "kingdom of heaven". This is very interesting.

Before I continue, though, have you read Ellis's book The Shining Man with Hurt Hands which deals with multiplicity?

If so, I won't have to explain nearly as much. I learned something from their dark and light realms which has to do with the spiritual realm and the kingdoms. It makes a WHOLE lot of sense! Very interesting stuff (well, it is to me, anyway). Not sure if I'm correct on this or not, but I'd like to share it with people such as yourself and get your opinion on it, brother.

PeteWaldo

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Re: Kingdom of God
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2013, 02:51:19 AM »
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Thus amillennialists generally believe that Jesus ushered in His kingdom at Pentecost.

Cephyr13

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Re: Kingdom of God
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2013, 08:52:50 AM »
I agree with Ellis on prophecy, but I also believe the Kingdom of Heaven is present. I'm not sure it was ushered in at Pentecost, though. Jesus, before Pentecost, told His disciples that the Kingdom of Heaven is inside of them. Present tense. Now, whether our translations are accurately portraying that is a different story. After learning about how translation works, I haven't been able to find any good translations, not even the King James. I think Jeff Benner's translation work is by far the best, but he's only translated a little of the Bible using the word meanings from the Ancient Hebrew picture language, and its structure, and the culture, and their ways of writing, and the way they thought, and the way they lived, etc. They thought as Easterners, not Westerners. Easterners think very differently than Westerners. The Western powers took the Jews captive before the last parts of the Old Testament were written. We start to see the Western influence in their language. By the time Christ arrives on the scene, we see that the Jews have gone extremely Western in their ways and thoughts. They're interpreting the Old Testament through Western thought and Western eyes and they're completely missing the heart of scripture. They're no longer nomads. Like Abraham, and therefore cannot understand the nomadic ways of Abraham's people. Their nomadic ways, and the way they thought and wrote poetically and figuratively saturate the Old Testament, the Law, all of it. Unless we understand those people, we completely misunderstand what's being said when we translate. A translator cannot help but translate his beliefs into the translation. After researching the history of the church and the strong pagan influences it underwent, I no longer trust the translators of 1611 to give an accurate translation. There were footnotes all over the original 1611 translation where the translators said their translation was no better than any other translation at the time, and that they did the best they could, but that there was a lot that they were not certain about in the translating process. They showed how imperfect their translation was and how difficult it was for any and all translators to translate. A century or so later, some protestants began a campaign to say that the King James was the only perfect translation. They removed all the footnotes to support there claims. Did you know that the phrase "If anyone should add to this book, so shall the plagues of this book be added to him..." was not in the original manuscripts? That was added in those days in several translations to scare people, making it sound more ominous. Tentmaker.net is a good place to read about this. Lots of good references to scholars' work there.

Sorry for the huge paragraph--I'm posting on my cell phone.

PeteWaldo

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Re: Kingdom of God
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2013, 11:08:14 AM »
Did you know that the phrase "If anyone should add to this book, so shall the plagues of this book be added to him..." was not in the original manuscripts?

There are no original manuscripts.
How many scholars are you relying on, to put forward what you are advancing?
Did you ask Ellis (since he does have some experience with textual criticism)?
In a quick glance at Textus Receptus I found "The origin of the term Textus Receptus comes from the publisher's preface to the 1633 edition", which post dates the 1611 KJV that you referenced. Perhaps it was found included in other Greek manuscripts.

Also when I find someone that seems eager to rewrite scripture I usually first find a Muslim, and if Christian I google their name and the word "preterist", and generally find what I expect.
I only just glanced at this first result:
http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/tentmaker.php

Preterists even writing a pop-Bible "New English Translation" for themselves published in 1996:
http://preterism.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-preterist-heretic-bible
So do I trust a bunch of guys given over to 17th century Jesuit Luis Alcazar's approach to Bible prophecy? You might say engaging in their own counter-reformation efforts (counter-historicism)?
http://www.christianeschatology.com/partial_preterism.htm#jesuit_luis_alcazar

And then that, in turn, winds up always coming down to the same thing:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2795.0
Offering crystal clarity through a simple shortcut in discernment.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3601.msg15148#msg15148

Cephyr13

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Re: Kingdom of God
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2013, 04:34:41 PM »
Oh, sorry. I keep using the wrong term. I meant that the copies of the original manuscripts never say "If anyone should add to this book...ect." I accidentally say original manuscripts all the time.

No, this translator, Jeff Benner, and the scholars he's sourced are Christians, some from the 1800s, 1900s, and today. Benner is more about teaching people how to translate and how to research translation for themselves rather than trying to convey his beliefs. I'll explain here shortly.

And what I'm talking about is the actual 1611 translation of the KJV, not the 1633.

Basically, what happened was, Jeff Benner, a Christian, was reading the Bible back in 1996 and noticed that something didn't make sense with the translation. So he started looking into the original Hebrew language and it started to make more sense. He realized that the translators had not conveyed the message very well from one culture to another. As he research translation more, he found that translation isn't just about translating one word from one language to its equal word in the next language. The words in one language identify that culture's way of thinking and their concepts to another language. And if a culture thinks completely differently than our culture, and they have completely different words than our culture, it will be very difficult to convey their ideas and their thinking into our culture's ideas and thinking. Why? Because our concepts are different than their concepts, which means our word meanings are very different than their word meanings.

My wife is from Taiwan (she's Caucasian, but she was a missionary kid from age 0-12). She tried to tell me this Chinese saying one time. She said that this tiny little phrase in Chinese is not translatable into English. She said the best she could do is give me an idea what what it meant. When she was finished trying to explain it, she said, "I didn't do a very good job. English just doesn't have the words and concepts for me to convey what this saying means." That's what I remembered when I started reading Jeff Benner's stuff.

He said that he got tired of reading translators' opinions and wanted to learn the language for himself. Once he learned Biblical Hebrew, he started learning the Ancient Hebrew culture, because he realized that the great scholars of translation all said that if you truly want to know what a word means, you need to forget the Strongs and go back to the original culture's way of life and learn how they wrote, how they thought, etc. So he started studying the scholars' work on the ways, the thinking, and the writing styles of the Ancient Hebrews. He realized that a language is how a culture expresses their way of thinking, which is entrenched in their lifestyle. Once a person realizes this, they understand how incredibly hard it is to understand the manuscript ideas, then try to convey them into a different language. I don't want to go too deep into this in a chat forum. It's something one must learn for oneself.

Benner encourages people to learn the picture language for themselves, and learn the Abrahamic nomadic culture, and then read it for themselves and come to their own conclusions. He said that he did his very best to get rid of his old beliefs, and entrench himself in the mind of an Ancient Hebrew of Abraham's time while he translated. He and those who help him translate do their best to see the world from the Ancient Hebrew's eyes, roaming nomadically as sheep herders and all the other things that culture was. They translate from that foundation rather than any preconceived ideas of religion like most people do (like the translators you're describing have done--really, that's what nearly all translators have done).

When we've talked on the phone in the past, I saw that you're a smart guy who's really seeking truth. Me telling you this stuff isn't actually going to help much. If you want to go look at Benner's stuff yourself, that's where you'll start to see his background in translation and how he does it. He does a great job with his videos on YouTube. They're nearly professional level documentaries. Great stuff. It's a very quick way to learn some foundations of translation. What I did was started reading the original Hebrew Word meanings from Benner's website. When I saw how loving a God they painted, and how much sense that made with how Jesus treated people, I began realizing where I'd gone wrong in my research.

Benner is more about teaching how to translate, and what words mean, and what the culture was like back then. He does this so other people can learn to translate objectively rather than through their religious teachings. Or if a person isn't interested in that, he tries to educate a person enough to know what the original words meant so they can figure this stuff out as they read. I like that about him. He doesn't seem to be pushing a certain belief on anyone. He seems to be trying to educate people about how to translate. That's very refreshing.

Real quick, I'll give you an example of something Benner translated and discusses that's pretty cool. He says the word "create" in Genesis 1:1 and the word "made" in Genesis 1:24-28 (the making of Adam) is the same Hebrew word. We think of that word in Genesis 1:1 as "creating" out of nothing, and yet in Genesis 1:24-28, we think of God "making" Adam out of clay that already exists. So, our concept of the word may be off. So he goes and finds the word used later in scripture. The word "fatten"--in scriptural context, the Bible talks about fattening the calf for a meal--is the same word as "create" and "make." Benner says that when you research the Ancient Hebrew picture language, you start to see where that word came from, and you start to understand what it means. He says that the word is associated with filling of something that exists, like fattening the calf. That's where it came from. It means to fill something up. So, when Adam had a spirit put into him, he was "filled up" with God's "image," or more accurate, God's "shadow." At least that's how the Ancient Hebrew put it. A shadow of the original. He truly tries to educate people on the word origins and meanings so they can learn this stuff, not so he can spread his ideas like other translations do. Here are some links if you'd like to watch some of his videos. It's like watching the History Channel kind of. lol I highly recommend the History of the Hebrew Language video Benner has. Great presentation of how the language came to be and how it evolved and what tough a tough job translators have translating this stuff. And I'll share one link to a very cool page on his website that gives the Ancient Hebrew picture language word meanings of 36 of some of the most important words in the Bible.

Jeff Benner's Website: Ancient Hebrew Research Center - Word Meanings: God
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_god.html

Jeff Benner's YouTube Page
A History of Hebrew: Its Langauge and Philosophy:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0E346CF634AD0E30 (just hit play all for this series)

Jeff Benner's YouTube Page (lost of stuff here to watch)
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6JJpa_DEnsRZEgGk7yEGAQ

Enjoy! It's very enlightening to learn how translation works, and to see through the eyes of the Ancient Hebrew instead of just having to trust the translators' opinions. Cool stuff.

Cephyr13

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Re: Kingdom of God
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2013, 04:37:37 PM »
Translation, in this topic, is really off-topic. Sorry about that.

I was just conveying that the Kingdom of Heaven is typically pointed to as being inside of us--in our hearts. A present-tense thing, not a future and coming thing. While I do believe Jesus will return one day, I just think a lot of people think the Kingdom of Heaven is referring to a future event rather than the peace and love and joy that we can experience right now in Christ. Paul said he was a citizen of heaven, seated in heaven right now (depending on which translation you read. LOL Argh!! Translation issues are a pain...).

- Brian
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 04:55:50 PM by Cephyr13 »

PeteWaldo

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Re: Kingdom of God
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2013, 05:48:19 PM »
Translation, in this topic, is really off-topic. Sorry about that.

I was just conveying that the Kingdom of Heaven is typically pointed to as being inside of us--in our hearts. A present-tense thing, not a future and coming thing.

Like the kingdom of God / kingdom of Jesus Christ being present tense, and not of  this world for a thousand years or even for one day.

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

While I do believe Jesus will return one day, I just think a lot of people think the Kingdom of Heaven is referring to a future event ...........

Premillennialists, which are generally John Darby steeped futurists, as far as I know.

.......... rather than the peace and love and joy that we can experience right now in Christ. Paul said he was a citizen of heaven, seated in heaven right now (depending on which translation you read. LOL Argh!! Translation issues are a pain...).

- Brian

PeteWaldo

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Re: Kingdom of God
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2013, 06:21:21 AM »
I agree with Ellis on prophecy, but I also believe the Kingdom of Heaven is present. I'm not sure it was ushered in at Pentecost, though. Jesus, before Pentecost, told His disciples that the Kingdom of Heaven is inside of them.

I should have said that the verse I quoted demonstrates that the kingdom of God was at least present at Pentecost as that verse illustrates. My personal opinion is that Jesus ushered in His kingdom when He returned from the Father in His glorified body.

PeteWaldo

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Re: Kingdom of God
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2013, 06:59:39 AM »
When I commented on your last note I didn't notice the one before it, because I got here by clicking on the "last post" link.

Oh, sorry. I keep using the wrong term. I meant that the copies of the original manuscripts never say "If anyone should add to this book...ect." I accidentally say original manuscripts all the time.

No, this translator, Jeff Benner, and the scholars he's sourced are Christians, some from the 1800s, 1900s, and today.

I consider that all the same period, since the 1800s is when preterism and futurism began to come into vogue, so no shortage of effort to rewrite scripture was attempted, like John Darby writing his own bible. Preterists are also fond of quoting 19th century men as if it constitutes historical support. All perhaps right on schedule:

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4  And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

I'll stick with those great men of God of the Reformation and before, who approached bible prophecy through the tradition of historical amillennialism.

Benner is more about teaching people how to translate and how to research translation for themselves rather than trying to convey his beliefs. I'll explain here shortly.

And what I'm talking about is the actual 1611 translation of the KJV, not the 1633.

I was talking about the 1611 translation too, and why there could have been a change in a later KJV version based on a later edition of the Textus Receptus, which is the basis of the KJV. I was purely speculating that the addition of that verse could have been because of a Greek text that was uncovered after the prior TR was penned, or was simply not included in the prior TR because of a collective decision at the time of those who put it together.

Basically, what happened was, Jeff Benner, a Christian, was reading the Bible back in 1996 and noticed that something didn't make sense with the translation. So he started looking into the original Hebrew language and it started to make more sense.

So he's the first guy over five centuries to notice that? How big is the host of Hebrew scholars that are on board with Jeff, confirming his suggestions?

Cephyr13

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Re: Kingdom of God
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2013, 09:50:42 AM »
I never said Benner is the first guy to notice this. My statement came with implications that he is not the first to noticethis because I mentioned scholars of translation from the 1800s and 1900s that he has mentioned in his research. In other words, many have noticed it and researched it. The problem is that you can't hardly find scholar research about translating online regarding the Ancient Hebrew picture language. Tons of schlar work is simply not available to us non-scholars. So we are at the mercy of the translators and the mainstream, all raised up by the semenaries. It seems that time and time again, it is human nature to fall away from the original message of God, and the society does it as a whole. And some searching souls find truth again and separate from the mainstream. The Essenes did it 150 years before Christ came. Luther did it. It keeps happening. I see it happening again today.

The church is not conducting itself like it used to in the 1st Century. There's something we're missing. And the more I research translation, the more I see the problems with how we think about certain words in the Bible, and how the people in Luther and Tyndale's time were translating concepts imperfectly (and they said that in their own footnotes in the original 1611 version). But I'm just as susceptible to the same thing, so I could easily be wrong when I translate concepts. It's frustrating as hell. It's so easy to be duped and I'm just as easily duped as anyone else. To know that is both liberating and frustrating at the same time. My opinion here is just my opinion, and easily could be wrong. So, I just encourage people to research translation and history and see what they come up with.

PeteWaldo

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Re: Kingdom of God
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2013, 10:24:54 AM »
I never said Benner is the first guy to notice this. My statement came with implications that he is not the first to noticethis because I mentioned scholars of translation from the 1800s and 1900s that he has mentioned in his research.

That's why I warned of that period. Perhaps I'm a bit overly sensitive to it from my recent chats with preterists. With reinvention continuing on to today where we have the NET bible initially conceived in 1995 (published 2009?) that, gee, for some reason preterists are particularly enamored with.
http://preterism.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-preterist-heretic-bible

If you haven't read New Age Bible Versions, at least to see the changes in verses side by side along with outright omissions (though she may not be the best messenger for this message), you should pick up a copy or an equivalent as it is an eye opener.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/new_age_bible_versions.htm

In other words, many have noticed it and researched it. The problem is that you can't hardly find scholar research about translating online regarding the Ancient Hebrew picture language. Tons of schlar work is simply not available to us non-scholars. So we are at the mercy of the translators and the mainstream, all raised up by the semenaries.

That's why I would think a better go-to kind of guy would be a Hebrew speaking and Judaism cultured Jew that was ordained as a Rabbi, that later on came to recognize Jesus as His Savior, like Isidor Zwirn. I wonder if he is trying to rewrite scripture, or finds what we have to be suitable?

It seems that time and time again, it is human nature to fall away from the original message of God, and the society does it as a whole. And some searching souls find truth again and separate from the mainstream. The Essenes did it 150 years before Christ came. Luther did it. It keeps happening. I see it happening again today.

The church is not conducting itself like it used to in the 1st Century. There's something we're missing. And the more I research translation, the more I see the problems with how we think about certain words in the Bible, and how the people in Luther and Tyndale's time were translating concepts imperfectly (and they said that in their own footnotes in the original 1611 version). But I'm just as susceptible to the same thing, so I could easily be wrong when I translate concepts. It's frustrating as hell. It's so easy to be duped and I'm just as easily duped as anyone else. To know that is both liberating and frustrating at the same time. My opinion here is just my opinion, and easily could be wrong. So, I just encourage people to research translation and history and see what they come up with.

To credit Jeff with not having a doctrinal or eschatological bias might be asking a tad bit too much of him. Plus it sounds like he is a lone ranger.

Cephyr13

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Re: Kingdom of God
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2013, 11:03:37 AM »
Oh, Benner doesn't deal with Prophecy at all, as far as I've seen. I think he sticks to translation, the Ancient Hebrew Culture, the styles in which they wrote, and the historical changes in the language due to the captivity of the nation of Israel. I've seen nothing of his views on Prophecy.

I try not to follow his beliefs or anyones in particular. I like to search out God myself and see what other's opinions are. I've done a lot of research over the years--far more than most, just because I have a lot of time on my hands and have a passion for seeking God. The more I learn, the more I see that when I cling to what anyone says, I'm idolizing (taking what others say as my truth). I tend to guard against that heavily now. I watch people do it all the time. They unwittingly get programmed. Like Paul discusses how the people were saying they were baptised by Paul or someone else. They were idolizing--following the ideas of a man rather than seeking God themselves directly. I did this with Ellis and have done it with others over the years. I was unaware of what I was doing. In the past year, I've noticed it and pulled away from it. I try to research like a scientist now--as objectively as possible. My wife's a very good scientist. She's taught me some good practices on research and objectivity.

Thanks for the input. I apreciate it. Oh, and I have researched a bit about that book you mentioned. I know about verses removed and all that stuff. This is nothing new to me. I dig deeper than most people (and not because I'm smart or anything...just because I have a lot of time and interest in this stuff. I'm no smarter than anyone else). In fact, I think my intellect, and trust in it, gets me in more trouble than good sometimes. lol
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 11:05:28 AM by Cephyr13 »

PeteWaldo

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Re: Kingdom of God
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2013, 11:44:44 AM »
Oh, Benner doesn't deal with Prophecy at all, as far as I've seen. I think he sticks to translation, the Ancient Hebrew Culture, the styles in which they wrote, and the historical changes in the language due to the captivity of the nation of Israel. I've seen nothing of his views on Prophecy.

But you don't suppose he doesn't have any. I was only pointing out that pre-conceived notion is what can color and outcome even if he sticks with the Old Testament it can be colored by his understanding of the New. Particularly vulnerable when a person is working alone.
My concerns over doing so myself is why I kept seeking out company of others, and thus have become ever more convinced that if Isaac Newton or Matthew Henry and the rest of the reformers were here today, they would have drawn the same conclusions that Ellis did, primarily because their views fell within the same whole approach to Bible prophecy. The website that has followed this effort mainstreams the historicist amillennial approach by properly associating it with 1800 years of church history as tradition, rather than having it appear to be something unique or pop. I continue to seek support from those of the former age - the most important point of which is that this is same historicist context through which all Jews and Christians understand Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled. The approach of ALL.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/

I try not to follow his beliefs or anyones in particular. I like to search out God myself and see what other's opinions are. I've done a lot of research over the years--far more than most, just because I have a lot of time on my hands and have a passion for seeking God. The more I learn, the more I see that when I cling to what anyone says, I'm idolizing (taking what others say as my truth). I tend to guard against that heavily now. I watch people do it all the time. They unwittingly get programmed.

And we program ourselves, particularly by seeking out support for that which we believe in advance.

Like Paul discusses how the people were saying they were baptised by Paul or someone else. They were idolizing--following the ideas of a man rather than seeking God themselves directly. I did this with Ellis and have done it with others over the years. I was unaware of what I was doing. In the past year, I've noticed it and pulled away from it. I try to research like a scientist now--as objectively as possible. My wife's a very good scientist. She's taught me some good practices on research and objectivity.

Thanks for the input. I apreciate it. Oh, and I have researched a bit about that book you mentioned. I know about verses removed and all that stuff. This is nothing new to me. I dig deeper than most people (and not because I'm smart or anything...just because I have a lot of time and interest in this stuff. I'm no smarter than anyone else). In fact, I think my intellect, and trust in it, gets me in more trouble than good sometimes. lol

God bless you bro.

Cephyr13

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Re: Kingdom of God
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2013, 12:22:13 PM »
Benner doesn't work alone. He has a lot of people who work together as a big group, and that group changes all the time. They throw around a lot of ideas. But they do their best to keep stick with the original teachings of the Ancient Hebrews, then define the New Testament through that lens. That means that when I assess his work and ideas, I'm always having to check it against mainstream ideology and against my own judgments. I come to the best conclusion I can from what I know.

I know what you mean about working in seclusion. I do my best to keep in the company of many and throw out ideas and check ideas, etc.

And yes, as you said, we program ourselves by looking for what we expect to already find. That's why I struggle so hard to remove my own judgments/opinions, and to step back also from what everyone says I'll find, even the mainstream. Searching for truth is a frustrating business.

Have a good day, brother.

PeteWaldo

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Re: Kingdom of God
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2013, 12:36:40 PM »
Benner doesn't work alone. He has a lot of people who work together as a big group, and that group changes all the time.

I guess I got an incorrect impression through my 5 second glance at his site and noticed the the "I", "me" "I"s (including his wife as the "we").
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/1_about.html

They throw around a lot of ideas. But they do their best to keep stick with the original teachings of the Ancient Hebrews, then define the New Testament through that lens. That means that when I assess his work and ideas, I'm always having to check it against mainstream ideology and against my own judgments. I come to the best conclusion I can from what I know.

I know what you mean about working in seclusion. I do my best to keep in the company of many and throw out ideas and check ideas, etc.

And yes, as you said, we program ourselves by looking for what we expect to already find. That's why I struggle so hard to remove my own judgments/opinions, and to step back also from what everyone says I'll find, even the mainstream. Searching for truth is a frustrating business.

Have a good day, brother.

You too bro.