God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see.....

[PeteWaldo]

I copied and pasted this from a thread I posted in a forum that has a lot of supersessionist members. Typically, they try to paint anyone who recognizes the restoration of Jews to their covenant land as being a fulfillment of prophecy, as a futurist. Then they proceed to set up their futurist strawman because it provides a broad target, as opposed to the traditional approach of amillennial historicism against which their efforts fail. It doesn't much matter how many times one points out to them that one isn't a futurist. I thought it might be constructive to revisit this subject in our own forum, for new members.....

I'm not going to pretend to have all the answers to what the scriptures describe as a "mystery". But there is no shortage of those that walk in Roman church styled "punitive supersessionism" or replacement theology, that march around proclaiming God's judgments against faithful Jews whose lives revolve around their temples and faith based community and our great God Yahweh. Proclaiming that God was finished with any further plans for faithful Jews during the first century, in spite of the many prophecies of the restoration of Jews to Israel, that great men of God of the Reformation anticipated through bible prophecy centuries before that restoration ever even began to take place.

Isaac Newton 1642-1726: “Hence I observe these things, first that the restauration of the Jewish nation so much spoken of by the old Prophets respects not the few Jews who were converted in the Apostles days, but the dispersed nation of the unbelieving Jews to be converted in the end when the fullness of the Gentiles shall enter, that is when the Gospel (upon the fall of Babylon) shall begin to be preached to all nations. Secondly that the prophecies of Isaiah described above by being here cited by the Apostle is limited to respect the time of the future conversion and restitution of the Jewish Nation, and thirdly that the humour which has long reigned among the Christians of boasting our selves against the Jews, and insulting over them for their not believing, is reprehended by the Apostle for high –mindedness and self-conceipt, and much more is our using them despightfully, Pharisaicall and impious”
http://historyofzionism.com/zionism_in_christianity.htm#christians_on_zionism

So what was Newton referring to when he said "boasting our selves against the Jews"? Here's an example of a supersessionist Pope's understanding of the blindness God gave some Jews:

Pope Innocent IV: “The wicked perfidy of the Jews - from whose hearts Our Saviour did not remove the veil because of their enormous crimes but caused them justly to continue in their blindness, commit acts of shame which engender astonishment in those who hear, and terror in those who discover it.” (The Wicked Perfidy of the Jews)
http://www.christianeschatology.com/supersessionism_replacement_theology.htm#roman_catholic_supersessionism

So he basically indicates a belief that God blinded Jews to make it impossible for them to be other than condemned by Him. Certainly a different God than I follow:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I wonder how that pope would have received it, if a Jew had lumped him together as sharing the same spiritual condition, as a monolithic group composed of all gentiles?
Many Christians understand the figures of the "good olive tree" and the "wild olive tree" of Romans 11 to be referring to Jews and Christians. So let's explore a few verses that regard this "mystery":
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/spirit_of_slumber.htm

Romans 11:1  I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

That verse was penned decades after the cross.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21  For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

What might be meant by "unbelief" and "natural branches" in that passage?

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So "some" of the branches were broken off because of "unbelief" since they were "natural".
However faithful Jews are believers, who worship our great God Yahweh as best they can, through our shared Old Testament scriptures. Is it reasonable to believe that a just God who wants that none should perish, would Himself blind some faithful Jew's eyes and deafen their ears to the Gospel, so that He could then turn around and condemn faithful Jews of "unbelief"?

Rom 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

That is why some, such as Isaac Newton and myself, believe the blindness God gave some faithful Jews continues.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Enemies of the gospel, but beloved.

Ezekiel 36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
Eze 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Zechariah 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

I praise the Lord that I'm not in league with the anti-Zionists in "all the nations that come against Jerusalem"!
http://historyofzionism.com/anti_zionism.htm#anti_zionists

Just like we might all agree that there may be no shortage of gentiles that only delude themselves into believing they are Christian, isn't it reasonable to assume there is no shortage of faithful Jews that would believe that some Jews are self-deluded and stand outside the Spirit of God because they have not undergone a transformation of the heart?

Do the scriptures offer a verse that might help we Christians better discriminate, between a bunch of loudmouth anti-Zionists from Brooklyn NY that pretend to represent and speak for faithful Jews and Yahweh Himself, for example, or those faithful Jews that may be filled with the Spirit of God as their forefathers were?

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Yet there are some self-proclaimed Christians that are so eager to proclaim God's judgments against faithful Jews, as to even suggest that John Nelson Darby is responsible for the restoration of Jews to Israel, as if a mid-19th century eschatology were the driving force rather than 2500 years of Jew's longing (Aliyah) to escape the persecution suffered while being scattered among the gentile nations, by returning to rule over themselves in their everlasting covenant land of Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah

[PeteWaldo]

Would a just God condemn remote tribesmen that have never been brought the Gospel?
Would a just God condemn mentally challenged people that are too impaired to understand the Gospel?
What about children that are too young to understand?
Would a just God blind faithful Jews to the Gospel, so they can't see past our Old Testament, in order to condemn them or prevent them from sinning against the Gospel?

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

[PeteWaldo]

I need to repent of the following mischaracterization of the Roman Church that resulted from my ignorance of The Second Vatican Council (1962–65) regarding Jews in this Christian era:

I'm not going to pretend to have all the answers to what the scriptures describe as a "mystery". But there is no shortage of those that walk in Roman church styled "punitive supersessionism" or replacement theology, that march around proclaiming God's judgments against faithful Jews whose lives revolve around their temples and faith based community and our great God Yahweh.

I should have described it as "traditional Roman church styled 'punitive supersessionism'" or "pre-mid-20th century Roman church styled 'punitive supersessionism'".

While many protestant denominations remain hard supersessionist, and as a result rabidly anti-Zionist, even the Roman Church repented of its supersessionism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessionism#Roman_Catholicism

"At the Second Vatican Council, which convened within two decades of the Holocaust, there emerged a different framework for thinking about the status of the Jews’ covenant. The declaration Nostra aetate, promulgated in 1965, made several statements which signaled a shift away from “hard supersessionist” replacement thinking which posited that the Jews’ covenant was no longer acknowledged by God. Retrieving Paul’s language in chapter 11 of his Epistle to the Romans, the declaration states, “God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues… Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures.”[34] Notably, a draft of the declaration contained a passage which originally called for the “the entry of that [Jewish] people into the fullness of the people of God established by Christ;”[35] however, at the suggestion of Catholic priest (and convert from Judaism) John M. Oesterreicher,[36] it was replaced in the final promulgated version with the following language: “the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and ‘serve him shoulder to shoulder’ (Zeph 3:9).”.[34]"

[ps49]

Would a just God condemn remote tribesmen that have never been brought the Gospel?
Would a just God condemn mentally challenged people that are too impaired to understand the Gospel?
What about children that are too young to understand?
Would a just God blind faithful Jews to the Gospel, so they can't see past our Old Testament, in order to condemn them or prevent them from sinning against the Gospel?

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Also, what about somebody born into a Muslim nation? A place where the bible is banned and they are from the moment of birth psychologically trained to deny and despise the Christians and the Gospels? We don't get to choose the culture of our parents and nation. So I wonder, if you or I were born into a
Muslim culture, then would we not also follow the same path?

With these kind of questions, I always remember the words of Abraham: "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"  Of course! That is our faith.

Regards the restoration of Israel, I totally agree that this must happen but I believe it is for the glory of God, that through Israel people will know the hand of God, rather than for the intrinsic merits of Jews who might come live there.

[PeteWaldo]

Would a just God condemn remote tribesmen that have never been brought the Gospel?
Would a just God condemn mentally challenged people that are too impaired to understand the Gospel?
What about children that are too young to understand?
Would a just God blind faithful Jews to the Gospel, so they can't see past our Old Testament, in order to condemn them or prevent them from sinning against the Gospel?

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Also, what about somebody born into a Muslim nation? A place where the bible is banned and they are from the moment of birth psychologically trained to deny and despise the Christians and the Gospels? We don't get to choose the culture of our parents and nation. So I wonder, if you or I were born into a Muslim culture, then would we not also follow the same path?

For those that remain in abject ignorance to the Gospel, perhaps even those that parrot the blasphemy Muhammad requires them to believe could be overlooked, possibly giving them a pass.
But for those like our friend bahous who have been shown and should know better, that choose to blaspheme the Gospel and the Son of God, well, that's likely a very different story.

With these kind of questions, I always remember the words of Abraham: "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"  Of course! That is our faith.

Regards the restoration of Israel, I totally agree that this must happen .......

By restoration I meant to their land, which has already and continues to happen. Returning to their covenant land even while in unbelief.

Ezekiel 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
http://historyofzionism.com/zionism_in_prophecy.htm

....... but I believe it is for the glory of God, .....

And for the sake of His holy name:

Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not [this] for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.  23 And I will sanctify my great name.....

...... that through Israel people will know the hand of God, .....

Indeed! The prophecy suggesting that even ".........the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes."

But anti-Zionist Christians? Oh well......

...... rather than for the intrinsic merits of Jews who might come live there.

[ps49]

By restoration I meant to their land, which has already and continues to happen. Returning to their covenant land even while in unbelief.

Ezekiel 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
http://historyofzionism.com/zionism_in_prophecy.htm

Yes, I know and I do agree. This saying from Jesus seems very much connected:-

Luke 13:35 “See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’ ”

These words, spoken to the Jews, seem to indicate quite strongly that there will come a time when they will recognize Jesus as Christ. This event must and will occur before Christ returns to the gathered Israel. It's all slotting into place!

Just watch though, with all the trouble in the middle east, it's only a matter of time before they (the Muslims) all decide it's Israel's fault and turn on them...