This Category

[Peter]

[minor edit on 7-18-16. The former version is quoted in its entirety in the first reply]

Not a single person has offered a single shred of EVIDENCE that suggests that Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD, or that the Kaaba existed before the early 5th century AD when migrants from Yemen built it for worship of the Arabian Star Family, with the black stone idol likely representing their most powerful pagan deity, the moon god.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1140.0

If you have any archaeological or historical evidence that suggests that Mecca, or the Kaaba, existed before the 4th century AD, we would appreciate it if you would present it here. If not, what does that tell you about Mohammed's 7th century stand-alone religion?

Where did Islamic "tradition" regarding a pre-4th century Mecca come from?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=5091.0

As unimaginable as this subject seems to me, I am sure it is even more so to our Muslim friends. I am neither an archaeologist nor a historian. I can, however, search the internet for Islamic websites that provide evidence for a pre-4th century history of Mecca. I came up empty handed. Maybe you will have better luck. If so I hope you will share any evidence that you find with us. If you can't find any then what does that tell you about a place that was supposed to have existed since Adam?

It really struck me when I thought about it like this. What if a Jew or Christian was told, that there was not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence, that suggests that Jerusalem ever existed before the 4th century AD!
That there was no record of the very geographical epicenter, of the historical record of scripture that we believe, ever having existed before the 4th century AD!

No surprise there are over a million artifacts in THE Holy Land, just on display! One can hardly stick a shovel in the dirt without unearthing artifacts.
But Mecca? The center of the Islamic religion supposedly since ADAM? Naada - zip - nix - nil - nay - nothing that would indicate that Mecca ever existed prior to the 4th century AD when pagan migrants from Yemen settled it.
_____________________________

The "age of ignorance" is how today's Muslims refer to the pre-Mohammed world, but is that a fair characterization?
Based on Muslims refusal to even consider the historical, archaeological, and geographical evidence, we can see through today's Muslims that the "age of (now self-imposed) ignorance" for these poor folks began with Mohammed, rather than ended with him. These poor folks desperately need our prayers to help them overcome THE false prophet Muhammad.
https://youtu.be/8lEro81ygXQ

[AnnaMuslim]

Not a single Muslim has yet been able to bring us a single shred of EVIDENCE that suggests that Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD, or that the Kaaba existed before the early 5th century AD when the immigrants from Yemen built it for worship of the Arabian Star Family, with the black stone idol representing the most powerful pagan deity, the moon god.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1140.0

If you have any archaeological or historical evidence that suggests that Mecca, or the Kaaba, existed before the 4th century AD, we would love to see it. If not, what does that tell you about Mohammed's 7th century religion?

As unimaginable as this subject seems to me, I am sure it is even more so to our Muslim friends. If you can come up with something please let us know now. I, Peter, am neither an archaeologist nor a historian. I can, however, search the internet. I came up empty handed when it comes to evidence in this regard. Maybe you will have better luck. If so I hope you will share it with us. If not then .....

It really struck me when I thought about it like this. What if a Jew or Christian was told, that there was not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Jerusalem ever existed, before the 4th century AD!
That there was no record, of the very epicenter of the history and geography of everything we believe, ever having existed before the 4th century AD!

Of course there are a million artifacts, just on display in Jerusalem. One can't hardly stick a shovel in the dirt without unearthing artifacts.
But Mecca? The center of the Islamic religion supposedly since ADAM, or at least since Abraham? Naada - zip - nothing that would indicate that Mecca existed prior to the 4th century AD when pagan immigrants from Yemen built it.
_____________________________

The "age of ignorance" is how today's Muslims refer to the pre-Mohammed world, but is that a fair characterization?
Based on Muslims refusal to even consider the historical, archaeological, and geographical evidence, we can see through today's Muslims that the "age of ignorance" for these poor folks began with Mohammed, rather than ended with him.

WHAT WILL YOU DO WITH THE EVIDENCE? concot more lies and arguments against it? what is your point, that you dont believe Muhammad, we know that!, I believe the leader of all the Prophets, Sayyidina wa Nabiyyina Muhammad ibn 'Abdillah,
Sallallahu 'alayhi wa Sallam.

TELLS ME NOTHING OF MUHAMMAD< NO_ONE DISPUTED WITH HIM IN HIS TIME WHEN HE UTTERED THE WORDS ABOUT THE PREVIOUS PROPHETS OR THAT THEY WERE IN MAKKAH, NO-ONE CAME AND SAID THAT MAKKAH DID NOT EXIST> SHOW ME EVIDENCE HE WAS CONTRADICTED BY HISTORIANS< SHOW ME RECORDS THAT ANYONE OTHER THAN RAFAT has brought charges from the ARABS, MUSLIM JEW OR CHRISTIAN ARAB!

IT IS ONLY A RECENT DEVELOPMENT OF DR RAFAT AMARI THAT HAS THOUGHT OF THIS CLEVER LITTLE PLOY (INSPIRED BY AN UNHOLY GHOST?) TO MISGUIDE PEOPLE

DR AMARI DOES NOT PRSENT EVIDENCE, HE TAKES WHAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN BY PAGANS< ROMANS AND GREEKS AND DRAWS HIS OWN CONCLUSIONS< THAT IS NOT EVIDENCE IT IS SPECULATION LIKE ALL HIS WORK AND LET ME ADD ELLIS SKOLFIELD AS WELL, so called evidence he does not even know who the authors are! A GODSPEL (IT IS NOT A TYPO, THAT IS WHAT GOSPEL MEANS) according to an unknown writer, copied by who knows, recopied and translated from GREEK to LAtin to heberew to ENGLISH (OLDE ENGLISGH THEN NEW ENGLISH THEN REVised. HOW WATRED DOWN A VERSION CAN YOU GET!!! AND CLAIM IT IS EXACTLY LIKE THE ORIGINAL. ALL LIES ARE ORIGINAL, FICTION IS UNIQUE, but FOLLOWS DEFINITE PATTERNS<MISLEAD EVERYONE>

YOU JUST BELIEVE AND YOU DONT NEED THE LAWS< THE SPIRIT (JINN???) WILL GUIDE YOU>



THE 50 000 DOLLAR CHALLENGE IS BOGUS AND NOT WORTH RESPONDING TO.

[Peter]

WHAT WILL YOU DO WITH THE EVIDENCE?

When will you bring it? So far you have only tried to prove Islamic paganism with an absurd article regarding Hindu paganism. 20th century Muslims yacking about what some other 20th century Muslims false presumptions about what some 20th century Hindus wrote, that DID NOT suggest the same the same conclusions as the Mohammedans.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1138.msg6476#msg6476

DR AMARI DOES NOT PRSENT EVIDENCE, HE TAKES WHAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN BY PAGANS .......

That's true. His bibliographies are larded with Islamic sources and authors.

....... < ROMANS AND GREEKS

Why do you think that the ruler of a kingdom, like Alexander the Great, who wanted to conquer the people and land around him, would have a less passionate interest in geography than the next man?

[Mujaheed]

WHAT WILL YOU DO WITH THE EVIDENCE?

When will you bring it? So far you have only tried to prove Islamic paganism with an absurd article regarding Hindu paganism. 20th century Muslims yacking about what some other 20th century Muslims false presumptions about what some 20th century Hindus wrote, that DID NOT suggest the same the same conclusions as the Mohammedans.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1138.msg6476#msg6476

The evidence is the Quran, the evidence is the massive gathering that takes place in Makkah every year since the time of Abraham, the evidence is that from that small valley with no vegetation every human being writes in Arabic every day when he uses numerals (123456789) and the zero, the evidence is the found all around you every single day you should be reminded that you have more of Makkah in you than any other city in your daily life, But you not interested in the truth. Your quest is to prove conjecture and false rhetoric can be the truth if you repeat it often enough.

[Peter]

I added a second quote tag [ /quote] to your post to correct it. Please learn about and practice quoting as things get confused otherwise. Please read it.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=39.0

WHAT WILL YOU DO WITH THE EVIDENCE?

When will you bring it? So far you have only tried to prove Islamic paganism with an absurd article regarding Hindu paganism. 20th century Muslims yacking about what some other 20th century Muslims false presumptions about what some 20th century Hindus wrote, that DID NOT suggest the same the same conclusions as the Mohammedans.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1138.msg6476#msg6476

The evidence is the Quran, .......

A confused, largely unintelligible, heavily abrogated mess is proof of nothing.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2576.0
More on abrogation
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0

..... the evidence is the massive gathering that takes place in Makkah every year ........

Exactly the EVIDENCE that tells us that Muhammad borrowed pagan rituals from his tribe the Quraish in efforts to be inclusive. Muhammad performed the same rituals as a pagan, that he did after he invented his "religion", venerating the very same black stone idol that Muhammad's followers venerate today.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1050.0
Just as the Arabian pagans did when they marched around the Kaaba they built for moon, sun, star and jinn devil worship.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1133.0

........ since the time of Abraham,.......

Don't be ridiculous. Mecca never existed before the 4th century AD when Arabian pagan immigrants from Yemen migrated to and settled the area.

........ the evidence is that from that small valley with no vegetation .......

Which is EXACTLY WHY it was uninhabited until the Christian era. How or why would a person live in a place where they couldn't even pasture animals? What would they live on? Eat sand? Every geographer and historian described the area as "uninhabitable" because it was uninhabitable. It wasn't until the trade route had become established in around 6BC, and enough travel and towns along the way had been established, that trading with caravans made it even possible for anybody to live in Mecca. Nobody ever dreamed of doing so until the 4th century AD, and then it was largly because of a big dam breaking in Yemen in around 150 AD that Muhammad's tribe the Quraish migrated away from Yemen to the area near Mecca.

...... every human being writes in Arabic ......

Arabic is one of the youngest languages on the planet, and Muhammad and the Quraish pagan's Arabic arrived in Mecca with immigrants from Yemen in the 4th century, and the Yemenis got it from across the strait in northwestern Africa.
It didn't even have a written form until into the Christian era.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2561.0

..... every day when he uses numerals (123456789) and the zero, ......

Sorry again, zero comes from India.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0_%28number%29
However before they were subjugated to Muhammad's cult Arabs were productive and inventive, but remain largely unproductive to this day. Simply compare Muslims with Jews:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2852.0

The Global Islamic population is approximately 1,500,000,000 or 25% of
the world's population.  They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

Literature:
1988 - Najib Mahfooz

Peace:
1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat
1994 - Yaser Arafat:
1999 - Ahmed Zewai

Economics: (zero)

Physics: (zero)

Medicine:
1960 - Peter Brian Medawar

Chemistry:
1999 - Ahmed Hassan Zewail

TOTAL 6 (even including one for the terrorist Yasar Arafat for peace!)


The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000, or about 0.02% of the world's population.

They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

Literature:
1910 - Paul Heyse
1927 - Henri Bergson
1958 - Boris Pa sternak
1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon
1966 - Nelly Sachs
1976 - Saul Bellow
1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer
1981 - Elias Canetti
1987 - Joseph Brodsky
1991 - Nadine Gordimer World

Peace:
1911 - Alfred Fried
1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser
1968 - Rene Cassin
1973 - Henry Kissinger
1978 - Menachem Begin
1986 - Elie Wiesel
1994 - Shimon Peres
1994 - Yitzhak Rabin

Physics:
1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
1906 - Henri Moissan
1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson
1908 - Gabriel Lippmann
1910 - Otto Wallach
1915 - Richard Willstaetter
1918 - Fritz Haber
1921 - Albert Einstein
1922 - Niels Bohr
1925 - James Franck
1925 - Gustav Hertz
1943 - Gustav Stern
1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi
1952 - Felix Bloch
1954 - Max Born
1958 - Igor Tamm
1959 - Emilio Segre
1960 - Donald A. Glaser
1961 - Robert Hofstadter
1961 - Melvin Calvin
1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau
1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
1965 - Richard Phil lips Feynman
1965 - Julian Schwinger
1969 - Murray Gell-Mann
1971 - Dennis Gabor
1972 - William Howard Stein
1973 - Brian David Joseph son
1975 - Benjamin Mottleson
1976 - Burton Richter
1977 - Ilya Prigogine
1978 - Arno Allan Penzias
1978 - Peter L Kapitza
1979 - Stephen Weinberg
1979 - Sheldon Glashow
1979 - Herbert Charles Brown
1980 - Paul Berg
1980 - Walter Gilbert
1981 - Roald Hoffmann
1982 - Aaron Klug
1985 - Albert A. Hauptman
1985 - Jerome Karle
1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach
1988 - Robert Huber
1988 - Leon Lederman
1988 - Melvin Schwartz
1988 - Jack Steinberger
1989 - Sidney Altman
1990 - Jerome Friedman
1992 - Rudolph Marcus
1995 - Martin Perl
2000 - Alan J. Heeger

Economics:
1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson
1971 - Simon Kuznets
1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow
1975 - Leonid Kantorovich
1976 - Mil ton Friedman
1978 - Herb ert A. Simon
1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein
1985 - Franco Modigliani
1987 - Robert M. Solow
1990 - Harry Markowitz
1990 - Merton Miller
1992 - Gary Becker
1993 - Robert Fogel

Medicine:
1908 - Elie Metchnikoff
1908 - Paul Erlich
1914 - Robert Barany
1922 - Otto Meyerhof
1930 - Karl Landsteiner
1931 - Otto Warburg
1936 - Otto Loewi
1944 - Joseph Erlanger
1944 - Herb ert Spencer Gasser
1945 - Ernst Boris Chain
1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller
1950 - Tadeus Reichstein
1952 - Selman Abra ham Waksman
1953 - Hans Krebs
1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann
1958 - Joshua Lederberg
1959 - Arthur Kornberg
1964 - Konrad Bloch
1965 - Francois Jacob
1965 - Andre Lwoff
1967 - George Wald
1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg
1969 - Salvador Luria
1970 - Julius Axelrod
1970 - Sir Bernard Katz
1972 - Gerald Maurice Ed elman
1975 - Howard Martin Temin
1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg
1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow
1978 - Daniel Nathans
1980 - Baruj Benacerraf
1984 - Cesar Milstein
1985 - Michael Stuart Brown
1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein
1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]
1988 - Gertrude Elion
1989 - Harold Varmus
1991 - Erwin Neher
1991 - Bert Sakmann
1993 - Richard J. Roberts
1993 - Phillip Sharp
1994 - Alfred Gilman
1995 - Ed ward B. Lewis

Chemistry:
1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
1906 - Henri Moissan
1910 - Otto Wallach
1915 - Richard Willstaetter
1918 - Fritz Haber
1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
1961 - Melvin Calvin
1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
1972 - William Howard Stein
1977 - Ilya Prigogine
1979 - Herbert Charles Brown
1980 - Paul Berg
1980 - Walter Gilbert
1981 - Roald Hoffmann
1982 - Aaron Klug
1985 - Herbert Hauptman
1985 - Jerome Karle
1989 - Sidney Altman
1992 - Rudolph Marcus
1998 - Walter Kohn
2004 - Avram Hershko, Aaron Ciechanover and Irwin Rose
2006 - Roger Kornberg

TOTAL: 151

....... the evidence is the found all around you every single day .....

Not around me as I don't live in Arabia or engage in Arabian pagan rituals or speak in a backward ambiguous tongue.

...... you should be reminded that you have more of Makkah in you than any other city in your daily life, .......

Absolutely absurd. Israel is THE Holy Land and Jerusalem THE Holy City. THE land of the prophets and patriarchs located 1200 kilometers away from the Quraish pagan's Mecca and the home of THE false prophet Muhammad. You've been indoctrinated into a preposterous load of bull my friend.

....... But you not interested in the truth.

Truth is the ONLY thing I am interested in.
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Yet because of a 7th century Arabian pagan, turned false prophet, you believe the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.

Your quest is to prove conjecture and false rhetoric can be the truth if you repeat it often enough.

The EVIDENCE is all there. You engage in thinly repackaged Quraish pagan moon, sun, star and jinn devil worship rituals and call on the name of the Arabian pagan's deity "Allah". Please review the threads in this section to learn more about the origins of what you have been indoctrinated to believe.

Much more here:
http://petewaldo.com/origins_of_islam.htm
http://www.historyofmecca.com/

DO NOT reply to this until we have exhausted your claims on the other thread you posted beginning with the post at the following link.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2057.msg13874#msg13874

[Mujaheed]

Try to find the foundation of the knowledge of the NOBEL peace prize winners, Start with Ibn Sinna, then ibn Rush, then google the History of Algebra then find out who gave the world the gift of Greek and Roman philosophy. You are extremely narrow minded in your approach to knowledge and the history of Knowledge of the world

[Peter]

Try to find the foundation of the knowledge of the NOBEL peace prize winners, Start with Ibn Sinna, ......

Lived 980-1037
"His philosophical theory is a comprehensive, detailed and rationalistic account of the nature of God and Being...."
http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/sina/art/ibn%20Sina-REP.htm
How can a follower of Muhammad understand the nature of God when Muhammad compelled them to believe the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the new covenant fulfillment of the old covenant - the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Muhammad's followers are given over to the idolatry of veneration of the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in the southwest Arabian desert, located 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujUOZyrnewE
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1050.15

....... then ibn Rush, then google the History of Algebra .........

"Diophantus (3rd century AD), sometimes called "the father of algebra", was an Alexandrian Greek mathematician and the author of a series of books called Arithmetica. These texts deal with solving algebraic equations.[3]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra#History
That was 300 years before Muhammad was ever born and 200 years before the Arabian pagans built their kaaba in Mecca.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1133.0

........ then find out who gave the world the gift of Greek and Roman philosophy.

It is you who seems to be historically challenged my friend. By Muhammad's day the Greek empire had been fallen for a millennium and the Roman Empire was in decline. That's why it was such easy pickings for imperialistic Muhammadan murderers. Indeed, even before the Christian era, and over a half a millennium before Muhammad founded his cult, an enterprising Greek had invented the first mechanical computer known as the Antikythera mechanism. This device is dated to 500 years before Mecca was ever settled, and 600 years before the Quraish built their kaaba in the early 5th century AD for pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship. Featuring naked Arabian pagans and Muslims marching around the kaaba, and running back and forth between al-Safa and al-Marwah in Arabian jinn-devil worship, whose rituals Muhammad thinly repackaged, and his followers still engage in http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj___umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah

You are extremely narrow minded in your approach to knowledge and the history of Knowledge of the world

I doubt you are even fooling yourself with your post.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKToTi0nA5I

"Sennels says that “the ability to enjoy and produce knowledge and abstract thinking is simply lower in the Islamic world.” He points out that the Arab world translates just 330 books every year, about 20% of what Greece alone does.
In the last 1,200 years years of Islam, just 100,000 books have been translated into Arabic, about what Spain does in a single year. Seven out of 10 Turks have never even read a book.
Sennels points out the difficulties this creates for Muslims seeking to succeed in the West. “A lower IQ, together with a religion that denounces critical thinking, surely makes it harder for many Muslims to have success in our high-tech knowledge societies.”
Only nine Muslims have every won the Nobel Prize, and five of those were for the “Peace Prize.” According to Nature magazine, Muslim countries produce just 10 percent of the world average when it comes to scientific research (measured by articles per million inhabitants)."
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1844.0

When was the last time you bought something manufactured in Saudi Arabia or Iran? They weren't even capable of developing their own oil let alone producing it. Western companies had to do it for them. Are you going to try to tell us how innovative, inventive, enterprising and productive Muslims are as compared to Jews as a group? Didn't you ever even go to school with any Jews? Their mothers drive them mercilessly to excellence. How do you think they came to be in control of so much? Through laziness?

While reentering and building Gaza from basically dirt and desperate hovels over the last half century, the Jews developed an innovative and inventive high tech greenhouse industry, that had employed 4,000 so-called Palestinians, churning out two hundred million dollars worth of produce a year. When the Jews were forced to leave Gaza the Muslims that displaced them looted out the greenhouses, even stealing the piping, and those 4,000 high tech greenhouse jobs were converted into 500 farm jobs of Muslims scratching in the dirt today, as the greenhouses lay in wrack and ruin.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2982.0

Indeed everywhere we find murder, mayhem and misery in the world today - not innovation and invention - we find Islam. That's all it would seem Muslims have been interested in developing ever since they came into the grip of Muhammad's cult. Beginning with the mass murdering onslaught of the Islamic first jihad all the way up into France and Austria.
http://www.petewaldo.com/jihad.htm#first_jihad
Just as prophesied and confirmed mathematically http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#daniel_1335_days
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

[Mujaheed]

Try to find the foundation of the knowledge of the NOBEL peace prize winners, Start with Ibn Sinna, then ibn Rush, then google the History of Algebra .........

"Diophantus (3rd century AD), sometimes called "the father of algebra", was an Alexandrian Greek mathematician and the author of a series of books called Arithmetica. These texts deal with solving algebraic equations.[3]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra#History

How can you say that Dophantus is the father of ALGEBRA (the word is derived from from the Arabic language Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī used the geometry of the greeks and the persians and the numbers of the Indians and INVENTED, put together , gave us our first book of ALGEBRA

IT is prudent to say that the greeks contributed but incorrect to call them the father of something they did not name or create!!!

........ then find out who gave the world the gift of Greek and Roman philosophy.

[Peter]

I'm removing your post. [edit: but I decided not to because I thought you might no find it] You can copy and paste your text from it after you practice quoting. I will help you practice now. http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=39.0

Unfortunately we lost all forum posts from some time during the 6th of June until yesterday, because of a power failure at our host, so a couple of your quoting practice posts disappeared in the process. Let's start again.

[Peter]

Seems the word algebra wasn't even invented until the mid 16th century. Let alone that Arabic didn't even have a written form until some centuries into the Christian era.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2561.0

"algebra (n.) Look up algebra at Dictionary.com
1550s, from M.L. algebra, from Arabic al jebr "reunion of broken parts," as in computation, used 9c. by Baghdad mathematician Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi as the title of his famous treatise on equations ("Kitab al-Jabr w'al-Muqabala" "Rules of Reintegration and Reduction"), which also introduced Arabic numerals to the West. The accent shifted 17c. from second syllable to first. The word was used in English 15c.-16c. to mean "bone-setting," probably from Arab medical men in Spain."

So, again, "Diophantus (3rd century AD), sometimes called "the father of algebra", was an Alexandrian Greek mathematician and the author of a series of books called Arithmetica. These texts deal with solving algebraic equations.[3]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra#History

[Mujaheed]

Seems the word algebra wasn't even invented until the mid 16th century. Let alone that Arabic didn't even have a written form until some centuries into the Christian era.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2561.0

"algebra (n.) Look up algebra at Dictionary.com
1550s, from M.L. algebra, from Arabic al jebr "reunion of broken parts," as in computation, used 9c. by Baghdad mathematician Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi as the title of his famous treatise on equations ("Kitab al-Jabr w'al-Muqabala" "Rules of Reintegration and Reduction"), which also introduced Arabic numerals to the West. The accent shifted 17c. from second syllable to first. The word was used in English 15c.-16c. to mean "bone-setting," probably from Arab medical men in Spain."

So, again, "Diophantus (3rd century AD), sometimes called "the father of algebra", was an Alexandrian Greek mathematician and the author of a series of books called Arithmetica. These texts deal with solving algebraic equations.[3]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra#History

ARE YOU INSANE? CONTACT A MATHETICIAN IN CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITY ANASK HIM THE ORIGIN OF ALGEBRA AND THE LIES THAT IS SPEWED BY THE WEST THAT HAS PLAGURISED THE WORK DONE BY THE MUSLIM SCHOLARS

AGAIN YOUR DEVIOUS METHODOLOGY OF ARGUING HALF TRUTHS AND WHOLE LIES ARE EXPOSED<

The history of algebra began in ancient Egypt and Babylon, where people learned to solve linear (ax = b) and quadratic (ax2 + bx = c) equations, as well as indeterminate equations such as x2 + y2 = z2, whereby several unknowns are involved. The ancient Babylonians solved arbitrary quadratic equations by essentially the same procedures taught today. They also could solve some indeterminate equations.

The Alexandrian mathematicians Hero of Alexandria and Diophantus continued the traditions of Egypt and Babylon, but Diophantus's book Arithmetica is on a much higher level and gives many surprising solutions to difficult indeterminate equations. This ancient knowledge of solutions of equations in turn found a home early in the Islamic world, where it was known as the "science of restoration and balancing." (The Arabic word for restoration, al-jabru, is the root of the word algebra.) In the 9th century, the Arab mathematician al-Khwarizmi wrote one of the first Arabic algebras, a systematic exposé of the basic theory of equations, with both examples and proofs. By the end of the 9th century, the Egyptian mathematician Abu Kamil had stated and proved the basic laws and identities of algebra and solved such complicated problems as finding x, y, and z such that x + y + z = 10, x2 + y2 = z2, and xz = y2.

Ancient civilizations wrote out algebraic expressions using only occasional abbreviations, but by medieval times Islamic mathematicians were able to talk about arbitrarily high powers of the unknown x, and work out the basic algebra of polynomials (without yet using modern symbolism). This included the ability to multiply, divide, and find square roots of polynomials as well as a knowledge of the binomial theorem. The Persian mathematician, astronomer, and poet Omar Khayyam showed how to express roots of cubic equations by line segments obtained by intersecting conic sections, but he could not find a formula for the roots. A Latin translation of Al-Khwarizmi's Algebra appeared in the 12th century. In the early 13th century, the great Italian mathematician Leonardo Fibonacci achieved a close approximation to the solution of the cubic equation x3 + 2x2 + cx = d. Because Fibonacci had traveled in Islamic lands, he probably used an Arabic method of successive approximations.

[Bistabuster]

Seems the word algebra wasn't even invented until the mid 16th century. Let alone that Arabic didn't even have a written form until some centuries into the Christian era.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2561.0

"algebra (n.) Look up algebra at Dictionary.com
1550s, from M.L. algebra, from Arabic al jebr "reunion of broken parts," as in computation, used 9c. by Baghdad mathematician Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi as the title of his famous treatise on equations ("Kitab al-Jabr w'al-Muqabala" "Rules of Reintegration and Reduction"), which also introduced Arabic numerals to the West. The accent shifted 17c. from second syllable to first. The word was used in English 15c.-16c. to mean "bone-setting," probably from Arab medical men in Spain."

So, again, "Diophantus (3rd century AD), sometimes called "the father of algebra", was an Alexandrian Greek mathematician and the author of a series of books called Arithmetica. These texts deal with solving algebraic equations.[3]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra#History

ARE YOU INSANE? CONTACT A MATHETICIAN IN CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITY ANASK HIM THE ORIGIN OF ALGEBRA AND THE LIES THAT IS SPEWED BY THE WEST THAT HAS PLAGURISED THE WORK DONE BY THE MUSLIM SCHOLARS

AGAIN YOUR DEVIOUS METHODOLOGY OF ARGUING HALF TRUTHS AND WHOLE LIES ARE EXPOSED<

The history of algebra began in ancient Egypt and Babylon, where people learned to solve linear (ax = b) and quadratic (ax2 + bx = c) equations, as well as indeterminate equations such as x2 + y2 = z2, whereby several unknowns are involved. The ancient Babylonians solved arbitrary quadratic equations by essentially the same procedures taught today. They also could solve some indeterminate equations.

The Alexandrian mathematicians Hero of Alexandria and Diophantus continued the traditions of Egypt and Babylon, but Diophantus's book Arithmetica is on a much higher level and gives many surprising solutions to difficult indeterminate equations. This ancient knowledge of solutions of equations in turn found a home early in the Islamic world, where it was known as the "science of restoration and balancing." (The Arabic word for restoration, al-jabru, is the root of the word algebra.) In the 9th century, the Arab mathematician al-Khwarizmi wrote one of the first Arabic algebras, a systematic exposé of the basic theory of equations, with both examples and proofs. By the end of the 9th century, the Egyptian mathematician Abu Kamil had stated and proved the basic laws and identities of algebra and solved such complicated problems as finding x, y, and z such that x + y + z = 10, x2 + y2 = z2, and xz = y2.

Ancient civilizations wrote out algebraic expressions using only occasional abbreviations, but by medieval times Islamic mathematicians were able to talk about arbitrarily high powers of the unknown x, and work out the basic algebra of polynomials (without yet using modern symbolism). This included the ability to multiply, divide, and find square roots of polynomials as well as a knowledge of the binomial theorem. The Persian mathematician, astronomer, and poet Omar Khayyam showed how to express roots of cubic equations by line segments obtained by intersecting conic sections, but he could not find a formula for the roots. A Latin translation of Al-Khwarizmi's Algebra appeared in the 12th century. In the early 13th century, the great Italian mathematician Leonardo Fibonacci achieved a close approximation to the solution of the cubic equation x3 + 2x2 + cx = d. Because Fibonacci had traveled in Islamic lands, he probably used an Arabic method of successive approximations.

Somebody really messed with your mind.  The solution is really simple. 

You said Mecca existed before the 4th century because the Quran said so.  I believe you.  Really, I do.  If that is the case, then Jesus is the Son of God, died on the cross, was buried and raised again on the third day.  Jesus is our salvation just as the Bible says.  Of coarse we have no outside proof of this ever happening, it must be true just because my Bible said it was true!

Just like Mecca.  There are no outside the Quran evidence that supports the Quran that Mecca existed before the 4th century, you will NOT be honest with yourself to check out that information for the sake of validity!  What if I lied to you not once but many times.  Would you trust me?  I wouldn't even trust myself.  What if Muhammad lied, which he did.  multiple times.  How's his credibility?  You go to a U.S. court and the court will label you as an unreliable witness because YOU ARE A LIAR!!!  You have no credibility in our court systems.  We can't trust you because of who you are.  A liar.  How do we know if, this time, you're telling the truth?

So, if you can say Mecca existed before the 4th century with no evidence at all to support that claim, then according to you and your beliefs about Jesus being the Son of God, who died on the cross and rose again, we can believe on Him.  The only difference is, we have outside evidence that supports the claim that Jesus really did all those things like pottery, graves with Christian symbols, buildings and many other artifacts that not only showed that people lived there but showed record of said event!!

You have NOTHING but only the words of the Quran.  You would rather believe the words rather than the evidence that you NEVER provided to us as of yet!  Words are good only if they are backed up. 

[Mujaheed]

The challenge you posed, if you read my answers correctly is that: I prove Makkah existed. I have Makkah itself amd history from the time of the Prophet Muhammed to the point of your conjecture. All the arguments are in the negative against Makkah and the person making the statements does so form hearsay. The person argues with an absurdity very much like saying the Italians discovered America. You cannot say that it was discovered when people (Appache Tribes) were living there to begin with,

History of Makkah has never been challenged, no-one in 1430 years called Muhammad (peace be upon him) a liar, not the Greeks, not the Romans, not the Persians nor the Yemeni Christian Kings, not a single enemy ever contested his words regarding Makkah. In fact most who heard his words became Muslim.

Pseudo intellectualism is not a basis for an argument and it is futile to argue with an absurdity. Your absurdity is based on baseless conclusion like most of the arguments against Islam and Muslims.

You did not find evidence from Makkah, your writer did not excavate Makkah nor is the artifacts of any significance in the face of the wealth of history and religious attraction that Makkah holds.

You have not proven that Makkah did not exist, you merely made a crude suggestion based on inadequate evidence and hearsay.

[ExMilitary]

I've run the beginning and end of your reply together to make a point:

The challenge you posed, if you read my answers correctly is that: I prove Makkah existed...
You have not proven that Makkah did not exist, you merely made a crude suggestion based on inadequate evidence and hearsay.

You say, "I prove Makkah existed", then accuse others of basing their 'crude suggestion' on inadequate evidence [for the existence of Makkah prior to 400].

In (nearly) one breath you say 'here's proof... but the evidence is inadequate enough to come to the 'crude' conclusion that it did not exist'

Literally, the evidence you've offered is:

1.  Makkah exists today
2.  Over 15 million people visit it every year (Wikipedia)
3.  The Quran (written after 600AD) says that it existed >2600 years prior circa 2000BC

Does that about sum it up?

[PeteWaldo]

Muj, before answering any of these posts would you please address the simple yes or no questions that you keep running away from like a little girl. If you don't, your posts will again be going to spam, until you do.
Please click on this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=541.msg15821#msg15821

The challenge you posed, if you read my answers correctly is that: I prove Makkah existed.

Neither you, nor any other Muslim, has as yet brought a single shred of evidence that suggests that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD. And just like the rest of your posts you again dither on with empty hollow words instead of presenting evidence.
Why don't you simply present us some evidence that suggests that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD? That is, o course, outside the Islamic poppycock you call "tradition" that was all created and put to the pen in the 7th to 10th century AD that has nothing whatsoever to do with historical record.
The reason, of course, is because you cannot find any, because there is none. Google it!

I have Makkah itself amd history from the time of the Prophet Muhammed to the point of your conjecture.

I agree with you that Islam existed from the time of Muhammad until this present day. For heaven's sakes, Muhammad invented it by combining Arabian paganism with nonsense that popped into his head, along with thee stuff he and others like Jabr pirated and poorly plagiarized.
While there are some that claim that Muhammad didn't even exist (and there is a somewhat compelling argument for this), we don't need to even bother with that argument, since Mecca never existed before the 4th century AD Islam is rendered a preposterous fraud.

All the arguments are in the negative against Makkah and the person making the statements does so form hearsay.

That's patently false. The person I rely on most heavily is Dr. Rafat Amari who engaged in a 20 year full time study of this. His first language is Arabic and he even traveled to Arabia and studied original source materials. You cannot deny that you prostrate yourself toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/origin_of_ramadan.htm

But this isn't about Dr. Amari. All you have to do is simply use a search engine, to find all of the evidence on the internet that suggests that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD, and present that evidence to us in the forum.

The fact is that the archaeological record of Arabia is very well preserved and genuine ancient towns like Yemen, Qudar, Dedan, Tiema, Mada'in Saleh (Al-Hijr), Magan (Oman) and Dilmun are well attested in the historical and archaeological record, and even attest to each other. The historical record of Arabia even includes small Arabian towns, established before the Christian era, that came and went within a few centuries.
Yet there is not a shred of evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before around the 4th century AD.

The person argues with an absurdity very much like saying the Italians discovered America. You cannot say that it was discovered when people (Appache Tribes) were living there to begin with,

It isn't like saying that at all. We have evidence of a history of native American peoples. That's the whole point. Where's the evidence of people living in Mecca prior to the 4th century AD?
Where are the ancient ruins? Where are the pottery shards? Where is there a single shred of evidence that suggests that anybody inhabited, one of the most uninhabitable places, that even Arabia has to offer?
Simply present the EVIDENCE my friend!

[PeteWaldo]

History of Makkah has never been challenged, no-one in 1430 years called Muhammad (peace be upon him) a liar, not the Greeks, not the Romans, not the Persians nor the Yemeni Christian Kings, not a single enemy ever contested his words regarding Makkah.

Even in the 18th century Edward Gibbon was too lazy to investigate the veracity of what he wrote about Arabia. He based it on presumption while at the same admitting to the relative level of his interest in Arabia: "I am ignorant, and I am careless, of the blind mythology of the Barbarians: of the local deities, of the stars, the air, and the earth, of their sex or titles, their attributes or subordination."
http://www.historyofmecca.com/historical_claims.htm

But we don't live in the times of the Greeks or Romans, or even Gibbon's 18th century. And the science of archaeology is quite new. We live in this information age that allows us to gather information, from around the world, in a moment.
The simple fact of the matter is that there are over a million artifacts on display in Jerusalem - the geographical epicenter of THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs.
But for Mecca? Nadda. Nix. Nil. Nine. Nyet. Not a trace of evidence that suggests that it ever existed before the 4th century AD, or its Kaaba before the late 5th century AD when immigrants from Yemen built it for Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship.

In fact most who heard his words became Muslim.

That's ridiculous. In the first 13 years of Islam Muhammad was barely able to win a hundred converts. Then he lost nearly all of them after he told his ridiculous tale about riding around on a flying donkey-mule one night. That basically got him laughed out of Mecca.
http://www.petewaldo.com/mohammeds_night_journey.htm

So he went to Medina and picked up the sword, and began his convert-to-Muhammadanism-or-die campaign. This is when the imperialistic political cult of Islam set aside even the pretense of religiosity.
For heaven's sakes man, why do you think Satan has to murder his followers for leaving Islam, and beginning a relationship with Jesus Christ?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm#death_penalty_apostasy

[PeteWaldo]

Pseudo intellectualism is not a basis for an argument and it is futile to argue with an absurdity.

So then why don't you try composing a post with some substance for a change?
My friend, my argument is based on the abundant evidence of other Arabian towns - and abject lack thereof for Mecca.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/
Wake up man!!! Why do you suppose Mecca cannot be listed in this Wikipedia article of ancient towns of Saudi Arabia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Towns_in_Saudi_Arabia

Your absurdity is based on baseless conclusion like most of the arguments against Islam and Muslims.

Yet all you presented is a vacuum. Any reasonable person that is not filled with the spirit of antichrist, that has even a smidgen of capacity left to be honest with themselves, must draw the same inescapable conclusion that Mecca did not exist before the 4th century AD.

Take this Muslim Eastern history teacher for example. Do you suppose a history teacher might know something about history?
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2859.0

You did not find evidence from Makkah, your writer did not excavate Makkah ..........

My sorely deluded friend. A person can hardly put a shovel in the ground around Jerusalem, without uncovering archaeological evidence. Yet Mecca, that you have been fooled into believing was inhabited longer than any place on earth - dating all the way back to Adam - is devoid of such evidence. Can't you see how preposterous that it?

........ nor is the artifacts of any significance in the face of the wealth of history and religious attraction that Makkah holds.

Same as it was before Muhammad's day. A center of Godless idol worship. You see, the Quraish were fooled into believing they were worshiping God through that black stone idol too!

You have not proven that Makkah did not exist, you merely made a crude suggestion based on inadequate evidence and hearsay.

Please investigate the evidence, much of it through Islam's own books.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/origin_of_ramadan.htm

[PeteWaldo]

History of Makkah has never been challenged, no-one in 1430 years called Muhammad (peace be upon him) a liar.....

Let's see how easy it is, to expose your casual claim, to be a preposterous lie.
Come on my friend understanding that Muhammad was a liar is the only conclusion that a Christian has been able to draw, over the last 1430 years, that has read surah 4:157.
Let's look at this biggest lie that Satan put on his messenger Muhammad's lips:

Quran Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus..... but they killed him not, nor crucified him..... for of a surety they killed him not:-

Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
Mark 15:24 And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
Luke 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. 34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
John 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also [his] coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout. 24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

Jesus did indeed die on the cross just as reported by all of the Gospel witnesses, who had walked and talked with Jesus and were contemporary to the event, which is the exact opposite of Muhammad's contradiction from nearly 600 years after the fact:

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Since the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah, who saves all from sin who have faith in His shed blood, is the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel (and as prophesied in the Old Testament), each and every Christian over the last 1,400 years that has read that blasphemous surah would necessarily know that Muhammad was a filthy liar. A "messenger" of none other than Satan himself.

1Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/

And of course no Jew over the last 1400 years would consider Muhammad anything but a liar. Indeed the Quraish men were willing to have themselves and their innocent young farm boy sons beheaded, rather than to recognize the false Muhammad to be a true prophet:

Ishaq:461 "After the siege exhausted and terrorized them, the Jews felt certain that the Apostle would not leave them until he had exterminated them. So they decided to talk to Ka'b Asad. He said, 'People of the Jews, you see what has befallen you. I shall propose three alternatives. Take whichever one you please.' He said, 'Swear allegiance to this man and accept him; for, by Allah, it has become clear to you that he is a prophet sent from Allah. It is he that you used to find mentioned in your scripture book. Then you will be secure in your lives, your property, your children, and your wives.'"
Ishaq:462/Tabari VIII:30 "The Jews said, 'We will never abandon the Torah or exchange it for the Qur'an.' Asad said, 'Since you reject this proposal of mine, then kill your children and your wives and go out to Muhammad and his Companions as men who brandish swords, leaving behind no impediments to worry you. If you die, you shall have left nothing behind; if you win you shall find other women and children.' The Jews replied, 'Why would we kill these poor ones? What would be the good of living after them?'"
http://www.petewaldo.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm#jews_torah

It is clear that the last thing the faithful, literate, peaceful, productive Quraish Jewish farmers were going to do, is prostrate themselves toward the Quriaish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day. They knew who to fear, that being the ONE great God YHWH, not some SW Arabian desert dwelling illiterate phony, and the Arabian pagan's deity "Allah".
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/the_name_allah.htm

So Muj, perhaps you could explain to us what you believe the subject of the Injeel is.

[PeteWaldo]

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