The Abomination Which Causes Desolation

[ps49]

Ok, I want to have a go at some prophetic interpretation using history as the framework in which to  interpret prophecy.

First up:-

Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

Let's try taking 586 BC to be the year which the sacrifice is abolished. This is the year when Babylon, under Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the first Jewish Temple. Seems reasonable considering the time of Daniel's prophecy, around 535 BC, ie the third year of Cyrus the Persian.

Using the day = year prophetic custom we can calculate as follows:-

-586 + 1290 = 704 AD
Add one for year zero = 705 AD

Next up:-

Revelation 12:1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Well, it's pretty obvious that the woman represents Israel - 12 stars and twelve tribes of Israel. She also is Mary, mother of Jesus Christ, Who took 12 disciples who became apostles.

In 1948 Israel was decalared a free and independant national state for the fist time since, well, Nebuchadnezzar I suppose. So if the woman (Israel) came out of the wilderness in 1948 we can again make a simple calculation:-

1948 - 1260 = 688 AD

My interpretation:-

I suggest that the two prophets (Daniel and John with over 600 years between them) have given us not a specific date but in fact a date range.

Daniel gives us 705 AD
John gives us 688 AD

688-705 AD.

This is EXACTLY the time period used by the Islamic Caliphate to build both The Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa Mosque, both of which stand on the Temple Mount today. Surely this is the abomination which causes desolation, spoken of by God through Daniel.

[PeteWaldo]

Well, it's pretty obvious that the woman represents Israel - 12 stars and twelve tribes of Israel.

I believe that is supported by scripture:

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

She also is Mary, mother of Jesus Christ, Who took 12 disciples who became apostles.

From Roman Catholicism? (Since Jesus was made manifest as a Jew of the seed of David.)

Here's a rendering of Daniel 12:11 from the Tanach that, based on your post, you might find more enjoyable to contemplate:

Daniel 12:11 And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety.

While the Dome of the Rock has stood there silent for nearly 1400 years, it has loudly screamed blasphemy both in the founding verses as well as in mosaic all around the eaves, "far be it from Allah's transcendent majesty that he should have a son".



How might the math have come out if you had used a 360 day "prophetic calendar" for the Old Testament prophecy?
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#daniel_1290_days

[ps49]

Hi Pete,

I believe that is supported by scripture:

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Interesting - why only eleven? A reference to the tribe of Dann maybe? Judas Iscariot filling the same role later? What is the sun and the moon? Paganism giving way to The Most Holy God perhaps?

From Roman Catholicism? (Since Jesus was made manifest as a Jew of the seed of David.)

Unfortunately I cannot answer. I am from a family of atheists. I know nothing of Catholicsm, I just state a position, what I understand at this moment from scripture, you know, joining the dots up etc.

Here's a rendering of Daniel 12:11 from the Tanach that, based on your post, you might find more enjoyable to contemplate:

Daniel 12:11 And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety.

That rendering does help a lot. In fact, it bolsters my belief that the dome and the mosque on the Temple mount are the abomination mentioned by Daniel. They are afterall just buildings and therefore silent.  To miss out the "silent" word seems quite an omission on the part of the New King James Version which I read.

How might the math have come out if you had used a 360 day "prophetic calendar" for the Old Testament prophecy?

360 / 365 = 0.9863
0.9863 x 1290 = 1272.327 years
-586 + 1272.327 + 1 = 687.327 AD

It almost works, if you're trying to hit 688 AD, but I do think the method in my original post works better. Not only are the numbers more consistent with history but it also gives a start and end to the building of the abomination, which is more in line with the reality of building such a thing. Ie, it wasn't built in a single year.

"far be it from Allah's transcendent majesty that he should have a son".

I know, I feel the same as you. We both know when we hear the satan speak. Maybe Simon Magus is wondering where his teaching went wrong?

[PeteWaldo]

Hi Pete,

I believe that is supported by scripture:

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Interesting - why only eleven?

The 12th was Joseph who was having the dream.

A reference to the tribe of Dann maybe? Judas Iscariot filling the same role later? What is the sun and the moon? Paganism giving way to The Most Holy God perhaps?

Represented his father and mother. You can google these things.

From Roman Catholicism? (Since Jesus was made manifest as a Jew of the seed of David.)

Unfortunately I cannot answer. I am from a family of atheists. I know nothing of Catholicsm,

Roman Catholics hold the view you expressed that comes from Marianism.

I just state a position, what I understand at this moment from scripture, you know, joining the dots up etc.

Here's a rendering of Daniel 12:11 from the Tanach that, based on your post, you might find more enjoyable to contemplate:

Daniel 12:11 And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety.

That rendering does help a lot. In fact, it bolsters my belief that the dome and the mosque on the Temple mount are the abomination mentioned by Daniel. They are afterall just buildings and therefore silent.

It also includes the past tense of "was removed".

To miss out the "silent" word seems quite an omission on the part of the New King James Version which I read.

How might the math have come out if you had used a 360 day "prophetic calendar" for the Old Testament prophecy?

360 / 365 = 0.9863
0.9863 x 1290 = 1272.327 years
-586 + 1272.327 + 1 = 687.327 AD

It almost works, if you're trying to hit 688 AD, .......

Almost works? Daniel's 1290 and John's 1260 and 42 months all pin 688 and the founding of the abomination of the Dome of the Rock.

...... but I do think the method in my original post works better. Not only are the numbers more consistent with history but it also gives a start and end to the building of the abomination, which is more in line with the reality of building such a thing. Ie, it wasn't built in a single year.

The founding verses:

"O you People of the Book, overstep not bounds in your religion, and of God speak only the truth.  The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is only an apostle of God, and his Word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from him.  Believe therefore in God and his apostles, and say not Three.  It will be better for you.  God is only one God. Far be it from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son."

"far be it from Allah's transcendent majesty that he should have a son".

I know, I feel the same as you. We both know when we hear the satan speak. Maybe Simon Magus is wondering where his teaching went wrong?

On the subject of Simon Magus, and since you seem to like connecting the dots, consider the Simon Magus-Basilides-Ebionites-Waraqa bin Naufal, to Muhammad connection:
http://petewaldo.com/simon_magnus_gnostics_ebionites_islam.htm#simon_magus

[ps49]

How might the math have come out if you had used a 360 day "prophetic calendar" for the Old Testament prophecy?
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#daniel_1290_days

From the article we read:-

Old Testament - day = year "language" is suggested in Genesis' account of the flood as 30 day months pointing to a 360 day prophetic year, each year being equal to .9857 solar year (360/365.24) of or our modern historical record that the event dating comes from. 1290 x .9857 = 1271.5 solar years.  Subtracting 583 we arrive again at 688.5 AD.

I'm not very convinced that this methodology is appropriate. Reason being that both the Jewish "prophetic" 360 day calendar and our own modern 365 day calendar have regular adjustments built in, to keep then in sync with the seasons. So over a very long period of say 2500 years I would expect them not to vary significantly in terms of the number of days elapsed.

In the Jewish 360 day calendar, an extra 30 day month is added to every sixth year.
In our modern 365 day calendar, an extra day is added to February every fourth year.

So I did a quick calculation of how many days would have elapsed during 2500 Jewish years:-

Normal days = 2500 x 360 = 900,000 days
Number of adjustments = 2500 / 6 = 416.67
Number of adjustment days = 416.67 x 30 = 12,500 days
TOTAL TIME ELAPSED = 900,000 + 12,500 = 912,500 days

Similar calculation for our modern 365 day calendar:-

Normal days = 2500 x 365 = 912,500 days
Number of adjustments = 2500 / 4 = 625
Number of adjustment days = 625 x 1 = 625 days
TOTAL TIME ELAPSED = 912,500 + 625 = 913,125 days

So not much of a difference for such a long period of time, ie 2500 years. And not being an expert of the Jewish calendar, there maybe other adjustments which I haven't taken account of, to close the gap even more.

Anyway, using this as a guide, the factor to apply to Jewish "prophetic" years would work out as follows:-

912,500 / 913,125 = 0.999316

So the 1,290 day/years of Daniel 12:11 would work out as 1290 x 0.999316 = 1289.11764 years, which doesn't really work too well.

So given the fact that both calendars aim to stay in sync with the seasons, via regular adjustments, it's probably better not to make any adjustment when dealing with large periods of time expressed as years. Ie, 2500 Jewish years would be pretty much equivalent to 2500 modern years, in terms of overall time elapsed in days.

[PeteWaldo]

I'm not very convinced that this methodology is appropriate. Reason being that both the Jewish "prophetic" 360 day calendar and our own modern 365 day calendar have regular adjustments built in, to keep then in sync with the seasons.

That's why it's called a 360 day "prophetic calendar". If it was an actual 360 day calendar winter would switch with summer about every 35 years. Use of the prophetic calendar isn't unique to this particular study, as you can find no shortage of reference to it elsewhere on the web.

http://www.bing.com/search?q=360+day+prophetic+calendar&qs=n&form=QBRE&pq=360+day+prophetic+calendar&sc=2-25&sp=-1&sk=&cvid=EDFC64D47A38445C8BBDE42C99021D05

If Daniel's 1290 is all it accomplished we might consider it a freaky accident, but it not only date pins the Dome of the Rock with Daniel's 1290 but also his 70 weeks as well as his 1335:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#daniel_1335_days

Daniel's Messiah in the Critic's Den - try section 3.3.2
(though I disagree with the author's repeated reference to what Daniel was thinking (as if Daniel was creating and calculating the prophecy), since Daniel was simply recounting a dream he had that even he seemed to indicate he didn't understand)
http://theism.net/article/17

[ps49]

In the article, the years 1967 and 1948 are successfully calculated without any reference to the "prophetic calendar" or the year factor of 0.9857. So why is it that in the article, some calculations involve the prophetic calendar and others do not?

Similarly, as you noted, I did not use the prophetic calendar to arrive at the date range 688-705 in my original post.  This is a very significant period of time arrived at in full context of the prophecies given and history as we have it.  Do you therefore consider my calculations invalid or merely a coincidence?  What will you say of them?

[PeteWaldo]

In the article, the years 1967 and 1948 are successfully calculated without any reference to the "prophetic calendar" or the year factor of 0.9857. So why is it that in the article, some calculations involve the prophetic calendar and others do not?

We use the 360 day prophetic calendar for Old Testament prophecy, and the Julian calendar for New Testament prophecy, with one understandable exception. Even though Daniel's "times" problems are found in Old Testament scriptures, Rabbis have informed me personally that their scriptures as well as commentaries are silent, on just what a "time" is. Since the New Testament scripture from 2Peter defines what a "time" is, then we use the NT Julian calendar to calculate the problems.

Similarly, as you noted, I did not use the prophetic calendar to arrive at the date range 688-705 in my original post.  This is a very significant period of time arrived at in full context of the prophecies given and history as we have it.  Do you therefore consider my calculations invalid or merely a coincidence?  What will you say of them?

Since Daniel's 1290 and John's 1260 and 42 months all pin 688 by the methodology I use, I'd prefer a term more like "superior", to a method that falls short of accomplishing that.

Before we spend more time on the math, have you read The False Prophet?
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_great_detective.htm

[ps49]

I find it remarkable that both methods yield interesting results.

Thanks for the info - I'll read the article.

One quick question though - the prophetic calendar - is this just a simple 360 day repeating cycle? Ie one that involves no regular adjustment to keep it in sync with the seasons?

[PeteWaldo]

I find it remarkable that both methods yield interesting results.

Thanks for the info - I'll read the article.

One quick question though - the prophetic calendar - is this just a simple 360 day repeating cycle? Ie one that involves no regular adjustment to keep it in sync with the seasons?

That's right, and why it is called a "prophetic calendar" as in all those sites that discuss the 360 day calendar. Otherwise it would be an actual Hebrew calendar, which had variations, but all of which adjusted the calendar back to some semblance of a solar year.

If you read The False Prophet you will find all this in a brick by brick empirical argument, that I believe will bless you, as richly as it has all the other folks in here that have read it. It free, fast and fun to read, thanks to the author's writing style.

[ps49]

So, if I get this right, we use the Julian calendar when interpreting the NT prophecies because that is what they would have known and used. It is the calendar which John, writer of Revelation, would have been familiar with.

By the same rationale, surely Daniel, an Old Testament writer would have used the Jewish Hebrew calendar? That would have been the calendar used in his time?

If this is true, then there is no need to convert years since both calendars are tied to the seasons.

360 / 365 = 0.9863
0.9863 x 1290 = 1272.327 years
-586 + 1272.327 + 1 = 687.327 AD

It looks like I got this wrong. Using the "prophetic calendar," it would actually work out like this:-

360 / 365.25 = 0.9856
0.9856 x 1290 = 1271.424
-586 + 1271.424 + 1 = 686.424 AD

So it's short by about 1.5 years.

I calculate from 586 BC as that's the year Solomon's Temple was destroyed.
How would it be possible to contine the "daily sacrifice" without a Temple?

On the other hand, if I just simply add 1290 years to 586 BC, then I arrive at 705 AD. The year which both the Dome on the Rock and the Al-Aqsa Mosque were completed or "set up." It seems to fit better with the words of the prophecy:-

Dan 12:11 From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

[PeteWaldo]

I calculate from 586 BC as that's the year Solomon's Temple was destroyed.
How would it be possible to contine the "daily sacrifice" without a Temple?

Again you could save us both some time if you read the book, and I don't encourage anyone to do it peacemeal:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/1290_days.htm#sacrifices