Author Topic: If God didn't father Jesus then who did?  (Read 16609 times)

Patricio81

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Re: If God didn't father Jesus then who did?
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2017, 02:05:24 PM »
That is a good question Peter.

I ask you If GOD didn't father Adam then who did?

Humans have Divine Laws which we live by. Am I not right? Like the female and male produce children together. A male cannot produce without a female and vice verse.

GOD does not abide by Divine Laws he is above all laws. GOD is not human. Human is GODs creation. Right?

Adam is prove enough that GOD does not have to play by any rules. He created Adam with no father and no mother, then out of him he created Eve. He created Jesus with only a mother and no father.

So ask yourself when insisting that Jesus was fathered by GOD and that he is his begotten son, then who was Adams father? Or Eve for that matter?

The truth is GOD is not his creation, He does not follow the same laws set down for mankind.

The whole "Jesus is the begotten son of GOD" thing remind me of Greek God and Goddesses and how they would come down to earth mate with humans and produce Demi-Gods. To even insinuate that of The Almighty disgusts me to be honest.

Lets Discuss.

Thats completely untrue. First lets just look at the near Eastern Laws of adaption all through out the Levant and the Tanak. Weve even seen it with Jacob adopting Epharim and Mannaseh. Why would he adopt him if his son's (Yosef) children if they are already family? 

1. He had to adopt them because of Asenath, who was a pagan Egyptian and would corrupt the line of the chosen one and later Israel. To fully remove the aspect of corruption Jacob had to adopt both lines.  Moreover, Yosef  himself tells his descendants to take his bones out of Egypt because he will remain an Egpytain and not be of Israel. Even he understand this concept. This concept also explains How Paul are telling gentiles who are grafted into the tree of ISrael they are as NATIVE BORN (per Romans). Might I also state that Shaul (Paul) called himself a Pharisee of Pharisee and was taught by Gamaliel in the book of Acts.

2. Youre again removing the aspect of the function of Yeshua. As we know, cutting covenant in the Near East/Levant. The parties had to partake in a meal to cut covenant. We see in Genesis that the Meal between Abraham and YHVH, there are animals that are prepared and cut. G-d (the smoking pot) walks though the covenant and not Abraham. In Near Eastern covenants, if a person breaks the covenant the penalty is what happened to those animals. In other words, death or cut off from their people. However, Abraham did not walk though the covenant. Why didnt he, if both parties must adhere to the covenant?
G-d took it upon himself to solely take the punishment if Abraham or his descendants failed to the covenant.

3. Understand legality though Torah. Man forfeited his contract and as a result can no longer enter into the garden. Ha-Satan has legality over the fallen earth. Which is why Satan is appearing to  Yeshua in the desert to begin with. even Ha-Satan knows who Yeshua is! If he can get Yeshua to bow before him, he can nullify mans right to re-enter the gardfen and therefore have all of humanty and the throne of G-d.
However, though the sacrifice of Yeshua, man is allowed back into the garden.  Remember Yeshua is actually a Korban that follwers the sacrificial system from the temple and not just a "crucifixion".

4. Now using the laws of adoption and legality we can see why Yeshua is needed and who he really is.
A. He CANNOT be born from an earthly father because POST ADAM, ALL of mankind is corrupt. If hes born of an eathly father, hes corrupt and cant be the moshiach.
B. In Matthew, Ha-Satan Tells Jesus he owns all the keys of all the kingdoms of the Earth. Did you see Yeshua refute this? NO. Satan legally owns the earthly kingdoms. So Clearly Ha-Satan is looking for something much Higher. Again Satan clearly knowns who Yeshua is the Moshiach.
C. Adam was not born of an earth father and Neither was Yeshua. So clearly hes playing by the rules. Adam lived in the garden of Eden WITHOUT SIN and YESHUA WAS BORN WITHOUT ORIGINAL SIN because he doesnt have an earthly father.
D. Looking at Jewish customs a Jewish marriage is composed of two stages, the betrothal and then marriage. Which both John and Mary were adhering to. Which is why he became nervous and sought to put Mary away.

In Torah, Talmud and even Bear Eastern Customs we have something called the Trail by Waters:

If a person was accused of a crime (or sin) they had to go through the trail by water. If you casted them into the water, bound and they survived they were to go free. This is fundamental, and is called Mikveh or mikvah or what christianity calls "baptism". Moreover, IF the person who died during a trail and came back to life, he would be restored to life and annul the original crime.

This is basic Torah and even in the Talmud and Zohar. All Rabbis know this.

5. Finally YHVH doesnt even announced behold this is my son until caiaphas renders his garments null when his rips them, and he is baptised by John the Baptist who is a valid priest from the Sons of Zadock.  Moreover,
John cannot lay claim as Yeshua ADOPTED father because he has since passed. DO we ever hear from John ever again? Where was John during the Crucifixion? Where was he during the Resurrection? So clearly G-d has the legal right to claim Yeshua is his son. G-d does play by the rules and Teshua confirms the Torah (not replace it).

If you do not understand Near Eastern customs, Torah and rabbinics you will NOT understand the New Testament nor any aspect of Yeshua. 

Patricio81

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Re: If God didn't father Jesus then who did?
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2017, 02:10:09 PM »
Various Rabbinic veiws of who the Moshiach (Messiah) is form various ages and BEFORE Modern day christianity. Clearly these point to Yeshua:

Rabbi Simeon Ben Jochai (2.Century), Zohar,, part II, page 212a and III, page 218a, Amsterdam Ed.):
"There is in the garden of Eden a palace called : 'The palace of the sons of sickness, <, this palace the Messiah enters, and summons every sickness, every pain, and every chastisement of Israel: they all come and rest upon Him. And were it not that He had thus lightened them off Israel, and taken them upon Himself, there had been no man able to bear Israels chastisement for the transgression of the law; this is that which is written, 'Surely our sicknesses he has carried' Isa.53,4).- As they tell Him (the Messiah) of the misery of Israel in their captivity, and of those wicked ones among them who are not attentive to know their Lord, He lifts up His voice and weeps for their wickedness; and so it is written,'He was wounded for our transgressions' (Isa.53,5). Midrash (on Ruth 2,14): "He is speaking of the King Messiah - 'Come hither', i.e.">Draw near to the throne<; 'eat of the bread', i.e.>, The bread of the kingdom.' This refers to the chastisements<, as it is said, 'But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities' (Isa.53,5). Rabbi Elijah de Vidas (16.Century) :
"The meaning of 'He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities' is, that since the Messiah bears our iniquities which produce the ef fect of His being bruised, it follows that whoever will not admit that Messiah thus suffers for our iniquities must endure and suffer for them himself."


Siphre:
"Rabbi Jose the Galilean said, 'Come and learn the merits of the King Messiah and the reward of the Just - from the first man who received but one commandment, a prohibition, and transgressed it. Consider how many deaths were inflicted upon himself, upon his own generation, and upon those who followed them, till the end of all generations. Which attribute is greater, the attribute of goodness, or the attribute of vengeance?'- He answered, 'The attribute of goodness is greater, and the attribute of vengeance is the less.' - 'How much more then, will the King Messiah, who endures affliction and pains for the transgressions (as it is written, 'He was wounded,'etc.), justify all generations. This is the meaning of the word, 'And the LORD made the iniquity of us all to meet upon Him' (Isa.53:6)."


Maimonides (1135-12O4) wrote to Rabbi Jacob Alfajumi:
"Likewise said Isaiah that He (Messiah) would appear without acknowledging a father or mother: 'He grew up before him as a tender plant and as a root out of a dry ground' etc. (Isa.53:2)."

Rabbi Moses, 'The Preacher'(11. Century) wrote in his commentary on Genesis (page 660):
"From the beginning God has made a covenant with the Messiah and told Him,'My righteous Messiah, those who are entrusted to you, their sins will bring you into a heavy yoke'..And He answered, 'I gladly accept all these agonies in order that not one of Israel should be lost.' Immediately, the Messiah accepted all agonies with love, as it is written: 'He was oppressed and he was afflicted'."

Pesiqta (on Isa. 61:10):
"Great oppressions were laid upon You, as it says: 'By oppression and judgement he was taken away; but who considered in his time, that he was cut off out of the land of the living, that he was stricken because of the sins of our children' (Isa.53:8), as it says:'But the LORD has laid on him the guild of us all'(Isa.53:6)."


Rabbi Eleazer Kalir (9.Century) wrote the following Musaf Prayer:
"Our righteous Messiah has departed from us. Horror has seized us and we have no one to justify us. He has borne our transgressions and the yoke of our iniquities, and is wounded because of our transgressions. He bore our sins upon His shoulders that we may find pardon for our iniquity. We shall be healed by His wounds, at the time when the Eternal will recreate Him a new creature. Oh bring Him up from the circle of the earth, raise Him up from Seir, that we may hear Him the second time."

Patricio81

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Re: If God didn't father Jesus then who did?
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2017, 02:15:20 PM »
The actual name of Jesus is Yeshua. Which in both Aramaic and Hebrews translates verbatim to Salvation. Moreover, Jesus is just a mere translations. The word Yeshua appears on Leviticus. It also appears in in Machzor/Yikzor which is a liturgy prayer book used during Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.

Although im not a christian, I have no issue with the name Jesus.

PeteWaldo

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Re: If God didn't father Jesus then who did?
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2017, 07:54:57 PM »
The actual name of Jesus is Yeshua. Which in both Aramaic and Hebrews translates verbatim to Salvation. Moreover, Jesus is just a mere translations. The word Yeshua appears on Leviticus. It also appears in in Machzor/Yikzor which is a liturgy prayer book used during Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.

Although im not a christian, I have no issue with the name Jesus.

I think that even the letter J did not exist in the English language until the 14th or 15th century. From what I have learned Yeshua means Yahweh saves, delivers or rescues.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1889.0