Author Topic: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?  (Read 10150 times)

resistingrexmundi

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Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« on: September 02, 2009, 08:45:56 AM »
Let us start by allowing Steve the opportunity to expound on the two statements he made in another thread. These statements are the topic around which this thread will center.

#1
Quote
In the Old Testament, things are written that God gave instruction to people to go out and kill people. Would you believe it if I told you that was not so! There was confusion about God. Things are ascribed to God which shouldn't be really.

And #2

Quote
Jesus blew the Old Testament apart and put it back together again.

Before we begin let us decide on a criteria for ascertaining truth.

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 

And in order to prove them.

2Cr 13:1 This [is] the third [time] I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Peter

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2009, 08:58:48 AM »
Steve has repeatedly and steadfastly implicated the historical record contained in the Old Testament as being false.
As gently as I began to point out his error he continued to fail to face the truth but chose to replace it with homemade falsehood. Then as the conversation developed he even escalated his view, rather than reconsidering it, in spite of the scriptures shown to him. All while suggesting that others "pray about it" and "ask God" as if that is how his heretical view is proven.

I strongly recommend that you not encourage him brother until and unless he is willing to repent.
Every post he has made is worse than the one before it. What do you think the Muslims in this forum gain from his participation?
Simply review his post history in this thread to decide.

Steve

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2009, 09:04:04 AM »
2Cr 13:1 This [is] the third [time] I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established

That is in connection with Revelation - something new.

What I have been saying, The Bible says it itself. The Holy Spirit says it also.

Later, because I have to go out I'll show you. But I still urge prayer about this, because it is going to be challenging to some. Old notions tend to stick.

God bless.


resistingrexmundi

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2009, 09:08:59 AM »
Sorry but if you are unwilling to support your assertions with a minimum of two or three scriptures then I would say your argument is invalid or unsound biblically to start with. That is the criteria I set. It is fair. It is biblical. Even Jesus used the OT scriptures as a witness to Him and His teachings. If you can't provide scripture to back up your argument don't bother.

God bless
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Steve

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2009, 09:11:17 AM »
Steve has repeatedly and steadfastly implicated the historical record contained in the Old Testament as being false.
As gently as I began to point out his error he continued to fail to face the truth but chose to replace it with homemade falsehood. Then as the conversation developed he even escalated his view, rather than reconsidering it, in spite of the scriptures shown to him. All while suggesting that others "pray about it" and "ask God" as if that is how his heretical view is proven.

I strongly recommend that you not encourage him brother until and unless he is willing to repent.
Every post he has made is worse than the one before it. What do you think the Muslims in this forum gain from his participation?
Simply review his post history in this thread to decide.

Do you realise what you are saying there Peter?

Repent?

Of What?

That Christ is greater than all the prophets?
That none knew God as well as err....Christ.

And you don't even want to pray about what I have said?

Why did Jesus teach the things he taught?

I'll leave you with that thought.

God bless

Peter

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2009, 09:25:41 AM »
Steve has repeatedly and steadfastly implicated the historical record contained in the Old Testament as being false.
As gently as I began to point out his error he continued to fail to face the truth but chose to replace it with homemade falsehood. Then as the conversation developed he even escalated his view, rather than reconsidering it, in spite of the scriptures shown to him. All while suggesting that others "pray about it" and "ask God" as if that is how his heretical view is proven.

I strongly recommend that you not encourage him brother until and unless he is willing to repent.
Every post he has made is worse than the one before it. What do you think the Muslims in this forum gain from his participation?
Simply review his post history in this thread to decide.

Do you realise what you are saying there Peter?

Repent?

Of What?

Resisting, I hope you are carefully considering Steve's post. Here we find Steve writing as if he has no idea of what transpired during our prior conversation. That he can't imagine what I am asking him to repent of. He is ready to squander all that time spent, all over again.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=637.msg2531#msg2531

Repent of what Steve? Again, and again and again, of your false claim:

"In the Old Testament, things are written that God gave instruction to people to go out and kill people. Would you believe it if I told you that was not so!"

But the truth is a matter of historical record in scripture. I am finished with you until and unless you repent of that false claim.

That Christ is greater than all the prophets?
That none knew God as well as err....Christ.

And you don't even want to pray about what I have said?

Why did Jesus teach the things he taught?

I'll leave you with that thought.

God bless

resistingrexmundi

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2009, 09:31:10 AM »
Quote
Sorry but if you are unwilling to support your assertions with a minimum of two or three scriptures then I would say your argument is invalid or unsound biblically to start with. That is the criteria I set. It is fair. It is biblical. Even Jesus used the OT scriptures as a witness to Him and His teachings. If you can't provide scripture to back up your argument don't bother.

I think insisting on something as silly as use the scriptures to back up your claim was enough to scare him off the subject. I think it is safe to just delete this thread since he doesn't seem interested in rational conversation. Sorry again for even starting it.
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Steve

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2009, 09:42:17 AM »
Quote
Sorry but if you are unwilling to support your assertions with a minimum of two or three scriptures then I would say your argument is invalid or unsound biblically to start with. That is the criteria I set. It is fair. It is biblical. Even Jesus used the OT scriptures as a witness to Him and His teachings. If you can't provide scripture to back up your argument don't bother.

I think insisting on something as silly as use the scriptures to back up your claim was enough to scare him off the subject. I think it is safe to just delete this thread since he doesn't seem interested in rational conversation. Sorry again for even starting it.

What?
I don't believe you two. I really don't.

What did I say I would do?
I told you the Bible does say it. And it says it in the New Testament too. I said I will show you later.

Scare me off. No chance. Christ is greater.

This is a Christian forum though isn't it, or am I in the wrong place?

Christ in you the hope of glory.



Peter

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2009, 09:44:05 AM »
Quote
Sorry but if you are unwilling to support your assertions with a minimum of two or three scriptures then I would say your argument is invalid or unsound biblically to start with. That is the criteria I set. It is fair. It is biblical. Even Jesus used the OT scriptures as a witness to Him and His teachings. If you can't provide scripture to back up your argument don't bother.

I think insisting on something as silly as use the scriptures to back up your claim was enough to scare him off the subject. I think it is safe to just delete this thread since he doesn't seem interested in rational conversation. Sorry again for even starting it.

I haven't deleted a member's thread in forum history. I don't see any reason to start now. The subject is perfectly valid. God spoke to old testament saints. They weren't in confusion about it.

Steve

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2009, 09:51:17 AM »
Quote
Sorry but if you are unwilling to support your assertions with a minimum of two or three scriptures then I would say your argument is invalid or unsound biblically to start with. That is the criteria I set. It is fair. It is biblical. Even Jesus used the OT scriptures as a witness to Him and His teachings. If you can't provide scripture to back up your argument don't bother.

I think insisting on something as silly as use the scriptures to back up your claim was enough to scare him off the subject. I think it is safe to just delete this thread since he doesn't seem interested in rational conversation. Sorry again for even starting it.

I haven't deleted a member's thread in forum history. I don't see any reason to start now. The subject is perfectly valid. God spoke to old testament saints. They weren't in confusion about it.

I really do have to go out Peter. But look around you at the Christian world. There is still confusion among the saints today.

God bless.

Steve

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2009, 05:12:25 PM »
1 Corinthians: 6-16
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"
10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Can anyone say why Jesus kept Himself hidden from certain individuals, and only revealed himself to others?

What would the situation have been had Jesus have taken seat in the temple as King of the Jews and lead them to a glorious victory against Rome? We know he could have called the entire world to him in that way.
A magnificent victory of battle. A Holy war. Praise to the Magnificent Warrior forever!

It might still be the case that the Romans may have captured him, and crucified Him, and then the Resurrection, because that was of course important. But then he is back in the temple again.

Why was that route rejected?



« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 05:15:00 PM by Steve »

Steve

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2009, 12:27:50 AM »
Why was that route rejected?

No answer - darkness - Don't know.

So let's continue. The answer will become apparent. Though those who object to praying to God about this subject may learn nothing - due being closed off from God about it. Otherwise let others pray in the name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

Any objections to that? No. Good. Let's continue.

This may well be one of the most important verses in the Old Testament:

Isaiah:44:6
 6 "This is what the LORD says" Israel's KING and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

That verse is very important.

So is this one:

Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your KING comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Now let's skip forward:

Matthew 21: 1-5
1 As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, "Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me.
3 If anyone says anything to you, tell him that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away."
4 This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:
5 "Say to the Daughter of Zion, 'See, your KING comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.' "

The Scribes and Pharisees knew the scriptures, and for Jesus to fulfil that prophesy was to invite certain trouble from them. This King certainly wasn't what they were expecting Him to be.

He didn't sit in the temple and lead them to freedom. Something many thought he would do. Therefore, to them, He could only be an imposter!

We find Jesus in front of Pilate (The Governer from Rome):

Matthew 27:11
Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, "Are you the KING of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.

Forward again to a scene from the crucifixion:

Matthew:27: 35-36
35 When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
36 And sitting down, they kept watch over him there. 37Above his head they placed the written charge against him: THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS.


Back to that verse in Isaiah again:
Isaiah:44:6
 6 "This is what the LORD says" Israel's KING and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Now Let's make one thing perfectly clear. Jesus was not just a  Prophet, and neither was he a Messenger from God. He was way, way above that. He was God! he was God! Phenominal! Absolutely phenominal.

Why Did Jesus have to be God?

Ripples are going to start quaking through the Old Testament - it is going to be blown apart, and put back together again, as though torn with a mighty sword to rightly divide it! It is true.

Jesus did not go the route mentioned earlier, and sit in the temple. He did not go that route for a very good reason. An excellent reason; Jesus was doing things God's way!

In Jesus, we see God, doing thing's God's way!

To be continued...

Christ in you the hope of glory.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 10:44:27 AM by Peter »

Steve

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2009, 11:11:29 PM »
Again, I will urge to pray, in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy spirit, before continuing...It is an invitation to God. Any time both in and relating to the scriptures is a special time.

So let us continue.

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit

Matthew :3: 13-16
13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptised by John.
14 But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptised by you, and do you come to me?"
15 Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.
 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

The verses from Matthew indicate that until the Spirit of God descended upon Jesus, he was a man of body and soul. He was on the same level as the rest of mankind. A miracle of God for he was empty of divinity. We see in Jesus, God triumphing at every level. Between the time of his birth, and the time of recieving the Spirit of God, Jesus had triumphed where mankind fails!

What Jesus was doing until the time of recieving the Spirit of God is not known. He was the adopted Son of Joseph a carpenter, so it is higly likely that in accordence with the customs of the time, he too became a carpenter. Shortly after his birth Jesus dissapears from accounts of him. Though he does get a mention in the temple at the age of just twelve.

Luke: 2: 40-50
40 And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him.
41 Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover.
42 When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom.
43 After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it.
44 Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends.
45 When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him.
46 After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions.
47 Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers.
48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you."
 49 "Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Jesus would have frequented the temple often. Reading from the temple scrolls was the only way at the time. What would he have made of this verse?

Isaiah 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you  a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel

Jesus would have known that the verse referred to himself. He would have been Hungry to get to know His Father.

Jesus would have been reading the Old Testament. What would he have made of the things he found there? Some passages would have no doubt  thrilled His heart. While others may have troubled him.
He would have read of a very violent God. A God sending people off to fight wars to kill and be killed.
Indeed - a ruthless God, full of anger and wrath. Yet it remained that the nature of this very violent God was not at all in Jesus.
Jesus perceived His Father very differently! Jesus perceived His Father  to be very loving and compassionate. Not the violent God at all. How do we know this?

John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?


At the young age of twelve, it could even be true that Jesus may not have quite known what to make of the Old Testament Scriptures, being of such a young age.

Luke : 2:46
46 After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions.

We don't know what questions Jesus was asking. Was He asking for their own perception of things?

There is one thing that Jesus would have been very interested in. He might not have given them the answer. But it is something that he would most certainly have been interested in. He may even have retained a secret!


Genesis 3: 1-19
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,
3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.
5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me�she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
14  So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring  and hers; he will crush  your head, and you will strike his heel."
16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it  all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow  you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

To be continued....

Christ in you the hope of glory.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 10:45:02 AM by Peter »

Steve

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2009, 04:03:42 PM »
Unfortunately it has been spelled out to me that I am not welcome here.

Therefore this subject will continue elsewhere.

It would appear some prefer to exalt the old testament prophets and saints above Christ, as though they knew more about God than Christ! Our salvation is in Christ - the Son of God.

Due to such blasphemy and hersesy I will post here no more, until those guilty have repented.

I pray you all become more knowledgeable in Christ.

Peter

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2009, 04:34:12 PM »
Unfortunately it has been spelled out to me that I am not welcome here.

Therefore this subject will continue elsewhere.

It would appear some prefer to exalt the old testament prophets and saints above Christ, as though they knew more about God than Christ! Our salvation is in Christ - the Son of God.

Due to such blasphemy and hersesy I will post here no more, until those guilty have repented.

I pray you all become more knowledgeable in Christ.

For those outside the loop, our young friend Steve decided to take this issue to phase three for us.
Myself and resistingrexmundi recognized foundational heresy being purported by Steve, who not only ignored us and repeated it, but rather than even at least keeping silent, chose to escalate it.
After consulting privately with brother rrm I sent Steve a private PM which followed a pattern from God's Word, which PM follows:
_________________

Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

This option became increasingly impossible. But how could anyone have expected that rather than accepting correction through the Word of God you would not only continue your heresy, but escalate it.

16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

This PM is step two. Both resistingrexmundi and I, peter, pointed out that you were trespassing against God Himself, yet you not only persisted with, but even escalated, your heresy in direct contradiction to the Word of God.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

If you insist on continuing without repentance, your threads and posts will be moved to the "rebuked" section of the forum, where you will be publicly rebuked before the church.

If you then continue without repentance, perhaps moved from there to the heretic section, and/or you will be cast out, as to be determined later.
_________________________

But rather than to simply repent of his error, and/or simply answer the PM, Steve instead decided to make it public here and thankfully, at the same time he has promised to stop posting, until it is resolved to his own satisfaction.

For those that don't understand the nature of his transgression it is made clear in a short series of replies in a single post, though it took a tremendous amount of rrm and my time otherwise, in our futile efforts to correct him.
For anyone interested:
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=637.msg2531#msg2531

Over almost a year and a half we haven't had to manage such a matter (indeed any matter at all!), so perhaps it was a blessing in regard to pointing out how we can be better prepared to deal with such matters in the future before they get out of hand.

At least blessedly it would seem we won't be required to expend any more time and energy in this particular matter.

randomfeats

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2009, 04:52:04 PM »
Unfortunately it has been spelled out to me that I am not welcome here.
I believe you're more than welcome, just some of your views are a little far out there compared to most. They also appear to be slightly lacking in foundation.
I was actually interested in how you were going to end your speech.

Quote
It would appear some prefer to exalt the old testament prophets and saints above Christ, as though they knew more about God than Christ! Our salvation is in Christ - the Son of God.
I'm not sure where you see people exalting Old Testament prophets above the Son of God, it just appears that they disagree with you saying that OT prophets were in Darkness and that God never commanded anyone to kill.

Quote
Due to such blasphemy and hersesy I will post here no more, until those guilty have repented.
Heresy -
1.    opinion or doctrine at variance with the orthodox or accepted doctrine, esp. of a church or religious system

I believe anyone that doesn't hold themselves to the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church would be a heretic, so I'd gladly call myself one and am fairly certain that you yourself would say the same thing.

Blasphemy
1.    impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things.
2.      the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.

I'm not sure I see this in any posts other than some of your own. You're saying that what God's Word, the Bible, says in the OT is not true or misleading, however God is not the author of confusion.

1Cor 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Also, you seem to be implying that no one on this forum, aside from yourself, prays enough, or doesn't pray at all when reading scripture. When you imply that, it feels as if you're setting yourself up at a "higher level" spiritually, and feels as though you're talking down to people who don't see things as you see them. I'm actually curious still how you came to the conclusions you did, but it seems like you may not finish; I was hoping that by seeing your closing on your posts  that myself or some of the others here could discuss the topic further.

Quote
I pray you all become more knowledgeable in Christ.

I'll do likewise for you brother Steve.

Peace and God bless you.

Steve

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2009, 04:55:14 PM »

At least blessedly it would seem we won't be required to expend any more time and energy in this particular matter.

Dare you have courage to post the reply pm I sent to you? Posted unedited. word for word.

My Saviour is Christ. The Word of God! Holy and true.
Who is it that compares to him?
None. There are None.

I exalt him above all the prophets.

Christ - in him I can trust.

Post the pm I sent to you! Or hide the truth to your shame!

John 1:5
The Light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.






Peter

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2009, 04:56:48 PM »
When discussing this subject (which I am going to split off now) it is unfair to address Steve directly since he has precluded himself from replying.

[edit] Oh well I guess it was too good to be true. As memory serves this is the second time Steve broke a promise to stop posting. Resist could you please not encourage him.

Steve, since you you have stepped out of your self-imposed cage briefly, is your background Pentecostal?

Steve

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2009, 05:00:53 PM »
Blasphemy
1.    impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things.
2.      the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.


God is Holy. God is is Pure.

Christ is The WORD of God, Holy and true.

None compares to him.

Who is it that has made God properly known. The name?

Who among the prophets?

The name, there is only one:

Christ Jesus who God did send.

The WORD of God. Holy and True.

Steve

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2009, 05:04:36 PM »
Steve, since you you have stepped out of your self-imposed cage briefly, is your background Pentecostal?

cage? I am not in a cage.

Pentecostal?

What did Paul say of such things?

We belong to none of them. We belong to Christ.

You still do not get it do you?


Peter

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2009, 05:14:16 PM »
Steve, since you you have stepped out of your self-imposed cage briefly, is your background Pentecostal?

cage? I am not in a cage.

Just a few posts back you wrote:

"Due to such blasphemy and hersesy I will post here no more, until those guilty have repented."

That is what would have been wise to consider as a self-imposed cage.

How old are you Steve?


Pentecostal?

If you could just this one last time not squander both of our time and review the context.
I asked about a pentecostal background

Let me go a little further and ask if you ever in your life attended a pentecostal church?

What did Paul say of such things?

We belong to none of them. We belong to Christ.

You still do not get it do you?

Steve

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2009, 06:09:00 PM »
Let me go a little further and ask if you ever in your life attended a pentecostal church?

I will tell you my background.

I was born and raised a Roman Catholic.

I took Michael as my confirmation name. The Great Angel.

I strayed away from the church later while in my teens.

In the course of events I found myself alone and prayed that God put me with true Christians.

Almost immediately I found myself a group of "Christians". It came to me one night that the leader of them had a problem about sex. I had no reason to think it.
I was taught to pray in tongues.

We were witnessing to a group of Christians at a college, when it came to me that what we were doing was wrong.

I stopped associating with them. Though with one I am still in touch to this day. It became that the leader did have a sex problem, and lured many girls to his bed. That was how my friend also came to leave.

I then questioned this praying in tongues. Was I blaspheming God with it? I became very depressed, I even considered jumping off a bridge. I did not want to blaspheme God with this tongue that was in me.

One night I just wept my heart out to God, I asked him to take it away. I really didn't want it. I couldn't trust that it was from him.
Suddenly my whole being was uplifted, and this new tongue just burst from me, and I heard the sound of a chirping bird, as though it were an excited friend coming to see me. I felt this incredible feeling of being loved. It stayed with me right until I went to bed, and I was afraid it would be gone in the morning. It wasn't. Praise the Lord.

I asked God to show me his truth, only his truth, and to never let me go. I sit down with God, and let God show me. Only God's truth is good enough. No one elses. I find verses of scripture leaping out of the pages at me. Some I might have read many times, and not fully realised them.

You know, Jesus made a great Prayer, in it he said "That they all be one, even as we are one" It is for us to answer that prayer, for we are divided. After all he has done for us, it would be great to have that prayer answered.

Christ. It is Christ that has made God properly known. We live in the most blessed Age. God's Holy Spirit has been poured out and dwells within us.

But many spend their noses in The Old Testament, and of such are you. You are like the Scribes and Pharisees. For they did not realise Christ.

You have been given the most precious of gifts, and what are you doing with it? Learning from men who have learned from the Old. You have the doctrine of men, who only think they know about God.

Look at Jesus - He knows all about God. It is Jesus that is God's WORD. It is Jesus that has rightly divided The Old Testament, and not men.

You see God as sanctifying war - when war is unholy to God. In your foolish wisdom you consequently tell Muslims that War can be of God. God is a God of peace and Love. This is the God Jesus wants everyone to know and love.

The wrath of God is God handing over to satan. Those that want war will have war. Many will be accounted for the loss of innocent blood.
The Holy lands are said to be Holy. The stained lands testify otherwise.

"You must not kill"

Tell it now now who's side you really are on!

I will pray for you.

« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 07:36:52 PM by Steve »

Steve

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2009, 06:48:23 PM »

Matthew 7 :15-22
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'


23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Peter

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2009, 11:16:34 PM »
Let me go a little further and ask if you ever in your life attended a pentecostal church?

I will tell you my background.

I was born and raised a Roman Catholic.

I took Michael as my confirmation name. The Great Angel.

I strayed away from the church later while in my teens.

In the course of events I found myself alone and prayed that God put me with true Christians.

Almost immediately I found myself a group of "Christians". It came to me one night that the leader of them had a problem about sex. I had no reason to think it.
I was taught to pray in tongues.

We were witnessing to a group of Christians at a college, when it came to me that what we were doing was wrong.

I stopped associating with them. Though with one I am still in touch to this day. It became that the leader did have a sex problem, and lured many girls to his bed. That was how my friend also came to leave.

I then questioned this praying in tongues. Was I blaspheming God with it?

The only way to answer this question is to "try the spirits" when they are giving utterance (this isn't about asking the person the question).
 I am well aware that Pentecostal churches by and large do not do this and as a result give themselves over to all manner of unclean spirits and even demons.
Whatever church was doing the tongue talking, you first have to wonder what the purpose of the Spirit moving might have been. To help a person of a foreign tongue understand? Not likely. Did it even sound like a foreign language? Not likely. The kinds of sounds I typically hear are "shashashababashabashooogooshogoodoigooodashababashagoogety...." kinds of utterances.

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The IS come in the flesh is important. And spirits are very good at obfuscation. For a check certain ask the spirit giving utterance, "Are you the Holy Spirit in Jesus name, who was crucified, died and was buried, and rose again, ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father."

I became very depressed, I even considered jumping off a bridge.

And unclean spirits know that they don't benefit by killing a host....

I did not want to blaspheme God with this tongue that was in me.

One night I just wept my heart out to God, I asked him to take it away. I really didn't want it. I couldn't trust that it was from him.
Suddenly my whole being was uplifted, and this new tongue just burst from me, and I heard the sound of a chirping bird, as though it were an excited friend coming to see me. I felt this incredible feeling of being loved. It stayed with me right until I went to bed, and I was afraid it would be gone in the morning. It wasn't. Praise the Lord.

..... so they adjust to a more friendly nature so as to encourage the host not to get intervention.

I asked God to show me his truth, only his truth, and to never let me go. I sit down with God, and let God show me. Only God's truth is good enough. No one elses. I find verses of scripture leaping out of the pages at me. Some I might have read many times, and not fully realised them.

The reason you never realized them that way before is because the plain language used to describe the historical events in the old testament is the opposite of what you "realized".
What is "leaping out" at you has already been shown to you to be the exact opposite of that revealed in the Word of God.

Now ask yourself. Is it reasonable that God give you a unique, personal - one man - franchise on truth, that reveals the opposite of what God's people have understood from scripture for 3500 years?

You know, Jesus made a great Prayer, in it he said "That they all be one, even as we are one" It is for us to answer that prayer, for we are divided. After all he has done for us, it would be great to have that prayer answered.

Christ. It is Christ that has made God properly known. We live in the most blessed Age. God's Holy Spirit has been poured out and dwells within us.

But many spend their noses in The Old Testament, and of such are you. You are like the Scribes and Pharisees. For they did not realize Christ.

You have been given the most precious of gifts, and what are you doing with it? Learning from men who have learned from the Old. You have the doctrine of men, who only think they know about God.

Look at Jesus - He knows all about God. It is Jesus that is God's WORD. It is Jesus that has rightly divided The Old Testament, and not men.

You see God as sanctifying war - when war is unholy to God. In your foolish wisdom you consequently tell Muslims that War can be of God. God is a God of peace and Love. This is the God Jesus wants everyone to know and love.

The wrath of God is God handing over to satan. Those that want war will have war. Many will be accounted for the loss of innocent blood.
The Holy lands are said to be Holy. The stained lands testify otherwise.

"You must not kill"

Tell it now now who's side you really are on!

I will pray for you.

The rest is false accusation and innuendo against the brethren in here, that springs from either imaginary conversations that have been milling around and around in your mind, or perhaps they spring from snippets of conversations from other places that you have had, that always just happen to go the same way, as your experience in this forum.
Do you wonder why it is you have to jump from forum to forum, but somehow always meet with the same kind of clueless brethren?

If you review your behavior in here from the beginning, and the escalation of accusation and false witness you have borne after you rejected the Word,  you will see how you were increasingly taken over.

Why did I ask if your had a Pentecostal background?
How did I know that you had the brush with unclean spirits so readily?
How did I know what was coming the first couple of times you tried to interdict conflicting points of view by admonishing brethren that they have to pray to understand, rather than simply supporting your view with scripture in context. Proof texting and divorcing verses from their to context is another characteristic of Oneness Pentecostalism - indeed it's required to support their heresies.

The reason is that I have seen the result of unclean spirits before.
I have two very close elder brethren that have had extensive experience with unclean spirits and have taught me about them, and I have seen an email of one poor gent with MPD do a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde conversion, within 15 minutes of each other, in different emails, speaking two very different dialects (one a smooth sophisticate the other more like trailer trash, from the same email address. The second one declaring "It's too late, you'll never get him" when the intervention had been started on the first in the initiating email.

I attended a service at a oneness Pentecostal church service, that someone happened to invite me to online, right at a time I was learning the above and asking the Lord for a little deeper understanding of "that man of sin":
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/man_of_sin_revealed.htm

The reason I identified the spirit influence almost immediately is not because they are in your past.

Once a person gives themselves over to, or invites unclean spirits, (and those people you describe probably put their hands to your head or shoulders in "solemn" but joyous ceremony) it is often very difficult, or impossible, to be delieverd from those spirits without intervention from brethren experienced in casting out unclean spirits and demons.

What you described above was likely simply the same spirit transforming, or a new spirit, deceiving you into believing you were finally at peace by filling your mind with chirping birds.
But look at how your wheels have spun right off in this forum, with those birds (metaphorically speaking), chirping in the background the whole way.

The reason some are called "familiar spirits" is that folks not only get accustomed to their presence, but eventually enjoy their company and miss it when they are not around, believing they are in contact with the Holy Spirit (though they get little twinges that all is not well), as some unclean spirits are friendly most of the time. But at other times they may cause even just light depression.

Neil Anderson who wrote "Bondage Breaker", that I highly recommend you read, estimated that in his opinion as much as 85% of the church may house unclean spirits to one extent or another.

We don't need to look for Satan in Hollywood, or the mosque or even in the world. His work is done there. Look for Satan to be in the church doing what he can to cart off Jesus potential goods.
John wrote about this in the 2 and 3rd chapter of Revelation that showed a church under spiritual attack by 95 AD let alone heresies like gnosticism etc.

The reason that rancor and division follow you from forum to forum is not because of your brethren.
The reason is because of unclean spirits that cause you to behave in the fashion that you have increasingly given yourself over to in this forum.

Perhaps I'm wrong about your housing spirits.
If I am, what do you have to loose by reading "Bondage Breaker"? It's a great book by a great man of God that will help everybody understand how unclean spirits can influence lives, even if not our own.
Before you allow these spirits to drive you further I highly recommend you pause, take a deep breath, and take stock of just where you've been (in terms of relationships with brethren) ever since you thought that you had left the unclean spirits behind.

Peter

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Re: Were the OT saints in Confusion about God?
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2009, 05:46:34 PM »

At least blessedly it would seem we won't be required to expend any more time and energy in this particular matter.

Dare you have courage to post the reply pm I sent to you? Posted unedited. word for word.

My Saviour is Christ. The Word of God! Holy and true.
Who is it that compares to him?
None. There are None.

I exalt him above all the prophets.

Christ - in him I can trust.

Post the pm I sent to you! Or hide the truth to your shame!

John 1:5
The Light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.


I guess I forgot to post Steve's email to me in the shuffle. It reads -

Consider Elijah and the prophets' of Baal. What was really going on there?
Can the dead be killed?

You accuse me of heresy against God's Word.

God's Word is true. 100%
So why accuse me of heresy?
When reading the Old testament keep God's Word in mind!
It is Jesus that has revealed God's Word.
And Let God's Word be true.

Revelation 19: 11-16
11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Consider how the Word of God makes War. -
15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations.

TRUTH.
_________________________________________

[edit add on 3-21-12]

This subject was addressed much more thoroughly, a few years later, at this link.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2943.0