Catholic Section/Christian Forum Chat on Second Vatican Council on Islam

[Peter]

The Second Vatican Council on "the Moslems"
CATHOLIC LIBRARY: Nostra Aetate (1965)

"Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions
The Second Vatican Council
Promulgated by His Holiness Pope Paul VI
October 28, 1965

Paul, Bishop, Servant of the Servants of God, together with the Fathers of the Sacred Council. For Everlasting Memory."


3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself, merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth (5), who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees,....
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2John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
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"the church"

...... just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes great pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet.
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John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Surah 4.157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
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"the church"

They also honor Mary, His virgin mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgement when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
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Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (enslaved)

30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
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"the church"

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this Sacred Synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.
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Quran 23:91 No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah. (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him!

1John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

How do Roman Catholics reconcile the above by the Pope and the Vatican Council in light of the fact that when a Moslem confesses that Jesus is the Son of God he has committed the most egregious, and only unpardonable sin (shirk), in Mohammed's religion?

How can they suggest that Moslems "...take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees...." when each and every Muslim must deny the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ?
When Mohammed's god "Allah" even curses Christians and Jews (sura 9:30 above).
When they must deny the blood that would save them.
When they must deny the whole subject and point of the new covenant?
How can Catholics reconcile the above decree when Mohammed's religion is specifically antichrist - indeed the only anti-another-religion, religion, by design?

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

[Peter]

DL

Muslims worship God the Father alone. That's what the Council is saying and affirming. That's about all there is to it. The rest is just religious diplomacy.

[Peter]

DL
   "Muslims worship God the Father alone. That's what the Council is saying and affirming. That's about all there is to it. The rest is just religious diplomacy."

Reply

they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees,....

2John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

[Peter]

Quoted me

    they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees,....

    2John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

SS reply

"Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall be called Children of God"
Matthew5:7

Why don't you go out and make some Peace in this season of light ?

[Peter]

I quote SS

    "Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall be called Children of God"
    Matthew5:7

    Why don't you go out and make some Peace in this season of light ?

reply

So then no answer as to how it is reconciled.

Aren't you concerned for 1.5 billion people that must deny that Jesus Christ is the Son of God as the most important fundamental of their faith?
That 1.5 billion people are necessarily required to deny that Jesus died on the cross to save us from sin?

[Peter]

SS quoted me:

    So then no answer as to how it is reconciled.

    Aren't you concerned for 1.5 billion people that must deny that Jesus Christ is the Son of God as the most important fundamental of their faith?
    That 1.5 billion people are necessarily required to deny that Jesus died on the cross to save us from sin?

SS replied:

Look, son:

What I'm concerned about is your obvious baiting if Islam on this board.

You don't seem all the interested in the souls of:

1) the 14 million Jews who deny Christ as their savior
2) the 850 Million Hindu's who don't even have a monotheiastic religion
3) The 400 Million Buddists who don't even a personal God of any kind.

No

you want to pick on Muslims. Who you insult by calling Mohammands and by misspelling Muslim when you use it.

You're beneath notice

go away.

[Peter]

I quoted SS

    Look, son:

    What I'm concerned about is your obvious baiting if Islam on this board.

    You don't seem all the interested in the souls of:

    1) the 14 million Jews who deny Christ as their savior

Reply

Jews recognize their prophesied Son of God:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Some just don't yet recognize that Jesus is that prophesied Son:

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Jesus has always been the mediator of mankind:

1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

SS

    2) the 850 Million Hindu's who don't even have a monotheiastic religion
    3) The 400 Million Buddists who don't even a personal God of any kind.

    No

Reply

You missed the point of the thread. Is the Pope and the Vatican Council encouraging Hindus and Buddhists to remain in their religions? Indicating that they are on some sort of right path? That they worship the same God as Christians and Jews? "They adore the one God..."
They did, however, encourage Muslims to continue in their belief that they worship the same God as the Jews and Christians in spite of the fact that Mohammed's god even curses Christians and Jews. Does it look like the same God to you?

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Surah 4.157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Looks like they are followers of Mohammed, as directly opposed to following the God of Jews and Christians, doesn't it?

Surah 9.30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

SS

    you want to pick on Muslims. Who you insult by calling Mohammands and by misspelling Muslim when you use it.

Reply

I spelled it that way because that's the way the Vatican Council document spells it. That's also why I put quotes in the title of the thread.

SS

    You're beneath notice

    go away.

[Peter]

DL

I told you, it's mostly a religious diplomacy thing. While it is possible that non-Christians may be saved should God will it, salvation is only absolutely guaranteed through belief in Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church does not want Muslims to remain Muslim if the possibility of bringing them to the truth is there

[Peter]

FT
3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself, merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth (5), who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees,....

Isn't that one of the necessary foundations for dialogue and healing to take place?
Is it possible that esteeming the Muslims may some day accomplish what 1,000 years of fighting between Catholicism and Islam didn't?
Or is this just another section of Vatican II that traditionalists would prefer to dismantle?
It seems as if Catholic Answers does:
If this is to happen, our cooperation with God’s grace will require prayer, courage, resourcefulness, and a realistic understanding of the threat we are facing. Until then there can be no illusions about Islam and its endless jihad.

[Peter]

FT

    Isn't that one of the necessary foundations for dialogue and healing to take place?

    Is it possible that esteeming the Muslims may some day accomplish what 1,000 years of fighting between Catholicism and Islam didn't?

Reply

Should fighting have been expected to accomplish anything from a Christian point of view?

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

It certainly has always been expected to from an Islamic point of view:

Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

FT

    Or is this just another section of Vatican II that traditionalists would prefer to dismantle?

    It seems as if Catholic Answers does:

[Peter]

DL

    I told you, it's mostly a religious diplomacy thing.

Reply

In order to accomplish what? To avoid being persecuted by Muslims?

DL

    While it is possible that non-Christians may be saved should God will it, salvation is only absolutely guaranteed through belief in Jesus Christ.

reply

Then why would the Council indicate that they worship the same God, when Islam requires them to deny Jesus is the Son of God within the most important fundamental of their religion, and deny the saving blood of Jesus?

Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Doesn't that verse precicely characterize those that follow Mohammed's religion that teaches the direct opposite of those two items? Does that describe a pleasant fate? Is it wrong to wake them up to what scripture details?

DL

    The Catholic Church does not want Muslims to remain Muslim if the possibility of bringing them to the truth is there.

Reply

Then why encourage them by suggesting they worship the same God?

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


Do you remember all of the coddling and capitulating our politicians did of the Soviet Union for decades? Then do you remember how outraged the lapdog media was when Ronald Reagan called it an "Evil Empire"?
Well that's exactly what the Soviet empire was. Nobody could deny it including the Soviets! The following dialogue proved to be entirely fruitful.

What if the Pope, instead of kissing the Quran, had quoted just a few of the verses from scripture that I detailed in this thread? Could that have started a high-profile dialogue, that might have inspired that first spark of cognitive dissonance in millions of Muslims, through the Holy Spirit? I believe an event of that magnititude may well have started Islam down the road to complete collapse. Scripture is, after all, the tool that Jesus gave us to wage war with:

Ephesians 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Do you suppose most Muslims have read the bible? Probably no more than Christians that have read the Quran. The average Muslim has no clue what is contained in scripture. How many might have even begun to take a more critical view of their religion, and maybe even notice the fruit of that religion more, with over 14,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world just since 9-11 (scroll to page bottom for complete listing), or the Sunni vs Shiite murder of innocent men, women and children, let alone fathers killing their own daughters and husbands killing their own wives in so-called "honor killings". With that fruit, accompanied by the verses that demonstrate that Mohammed's religion is the exact opposite of that revealed through all of the new covenant witnesses of Jesus Christ and the 1600 year record of God's Word, might wonderful things have begun to have been accomplished for those poor, sorely deluded, folks?

[Peter]

DL

Jews don't worship Jesus. They worship the same God. Islam is part of Abrahamic tradition. Anyway, you are very much bordering on to debate/off-topic here. Non-Catholics can post questions or fellowship. It's not really about the veracity of Islam. There are other places if you want to discuss that.

[Peter]

From there they went on to pile condemnation on God's chosen people (never a shortage of that in the Roman "church"), while leaving Muslims out of the conversation. And I was the one that was accused of going off-topic!