Author Topic: How Old is the City of Mecca?  (Read 7587 times)

Peter

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How Old is the City of Mecca?
« on: February 19, 2010, 03:00:54 PM »
If an archaeological and historical record cannot be found, that demonstrates that Mecca existed before the Christian era, then what can be concluded about Mohammed's 7th century religion? How is it that the very geographical epicenter of Mohammed's religion - supposedly since Abraham (indeed even since Adam) - has no artifacts, archaeological or historical record whatsoever to be found, to support that it existed before the 2nd or 3rd century AD? It's no surprise that 7th century illiterate desert dwellers might believe Mohammed's account of the fabled city, but how does that explain 21st century Muslims, in this information age?

Try a search like - historical and archaeological evidence of mecca - or just click on those words to go directly to that search in Yahoo, and consider the evidence critically and honestly.

Now compare that with the archaeological and historical evidence of Judaism and Christianity, for example.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=54.0
Like artifacts (there are a million artifacts just on display in Jerusalem)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artifacts_significant_to_the_Bible
And fulfilled prophecy
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1007.0
___________________________

Some days after I wrote the above, and while further confirming this new subject to me, I found the following.

http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/index.htm
    *  The Classical Writers and Mecca - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * Archaeology  and Mecca - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The Bible and Mecca- By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The Kaabah and the Arabian Star Worship - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The Role of the Temple at Mecca in the Jinn Religion and in the Arabian Family Star Religion - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The True Story of the Construction of the Temple of Mecca - By Dr. Rafat Amari

http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/construction.htm
(Pete's bolding for lazy readers)

THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA

By Dr. Rafat Amari

The True dates for the Construction of the Temple of Mecca, the Digging of the Well of Zamzam, and the Transfer of the Black Stone to Mecca

Islamic claims that Abraham and Ishmael founded the temple in the city of Mecca are recognized as false, when we study the black Stone, which was the heart of the temple.

    Abraham never went to where Mecca was eventually built, nor did his son, Ishmael, or Ishmael's son, Nabaioth. Despite these facts, Ibn Ishak, Mohammed's biographer, claimed Abraham was responsible for building the temple at Mecca, and that it was then run by Ishmael, and eventually Nabaioth. The story, created by Ibn Ishak and his companions, goes on to say that after Nabaioth, the tribe of Jurhum, which they claim inhabited Mecca at the time of Abraham, took the responsibility to serve the Temple at Mecca. According to the story, they served until the tribe of Khuzaa'h came from Yemen. This was after the dam at Ma'rib began to show signs of damage and drove them away. The story continues that, when the tribe of Khuzaa'h came to Mecca, they defeated Jurhum. Jurhum then left Mecca to hide the black Stone of the temple and two golden gazelles. They hid them in the water spring called Zamzam, then covered the spring, the stone and the gazelles with dust so they would escape detection. [1] The date these things supposedly happened is critical.  According to the stories, Jurhum lived in Mecca until the Ma'rib dam was damaged, and the tribe of Khuzaa'h left Yemen. We know these things occurred around the year 150 A.D.

Islamic tradition is illogical when it talks about Jurhum and the hiding of a spring of water and the Black Stone.

If Jurhum's story were true, why did the classical authors, who visited and wrote about western Arabia mention all the tribes who were living there, even the tiny ones, but never once mention Mecca or the tribe of Jurhum? Second, after being defeated, how could Jurhum bury two precious golden gazelles and a revered stone belonging to Mecca's temple without any of the inhabitants noticing?   Any tribe leaving Mecca would surely take its golden treasure and not bury it in a public place, well-known to all.  And this spring of water was the only spring in Mecca. Third, the black Stone was  a revered stone. It is not easy to move it from its location in the temple, without people noticing where it was placed. According to Islamic claims, the war erupted over who should be responsible for the temple. How could a defeated Jurhum tribe succeed in moving the stone without the winning Khuzaa'h tribe intervening, or at least noticing where the stone had been hidden? The fourth argument concerns the spring of water itself. If it existed in western Arabia, its location would be important to remember. After all, water was especially important for the Arabians living in the desert. Islamic tradition claims this spring existed since the time of Abraham. If it were miraculously brought into existence when the angel Gabriel gave water to Hagar and her child, Ishmael, then its existence would have been known, not just in Mecca, but in many other cities around Mecca. Bedouins would have come to the spring to water their sheep.  Area inhabitants would have come to refresh themselves. No one could hide the spring, even if it were possible to cover it with dust.

    The story of Jurhum hiding items in the spring during the 2nd century A.D. continues by claiming that Abdel Mutaleb, the grandfather of Mohammed, rediscovered the spring near the end of the 5th century. We can only conclude that the spring never existed before the time of Abdel Mutaleb,  and that digging by  finally the Mecchians found underground water, which eventually became a spring. This phenomenon of digging to find water which comes in the form of a spring is common in the Middle East. To claim that a spring existed in a city for 2,500 years before Jurhum succeeded in covering it for another three centuries is an impossible assertion,  since the springs of Arabia were significantly more important to the Bedouins than the Red Sea itself. You may hide the sea from the eyes of thirsty tribes, but you cannot hide a spring and its location for that amount of time.

    It is also impossible to believe that the black Stone was hidden for three or four centuries. The stone was considered the main shrine, or sacred element, in each temple, called Kaabah in Arabic. This revered stone, which represented the moon, was considered to be divine. The worship of the Arabian Star Family with Allah, who was the moon as its head, revolved around the black stone. Ellat, Allah's wife, was the sun, and al-'Uzza and Manat, his daughters, represented two planets. The Muslims believe the black Stone divinely came from Allah, who was the moon before the planet Venus replaced it in Allah's title. How could a black stone, greatly worshipped and revered by the people, be hidden while they were fighting to preserve the prestige they found in serving it?  It is implausible to suggest that they could hide their greatly-worshipped stone, without any of the people who chased the defeated Jurhum noticing where it was hidden, especially when the place where it was claimed to be hidden was the spring of water from which they drank every day of the battle. Hiding the worshipped stone in such a way is more implausible than hiding the spring of water itself.

    The story of the black Stone has some important implications. The black Stone was not in existence near Mecca until, perhaps, the end of the 5th A.D. century. That's why Islamic tradition tried to justify the absence of the stone by inventing implausible stories. Therefore, we can estimate that the black stone, which was the main element of worship in all Kaabahs of Arabia, was brought  from another area - most probable Yemen - toward the end of the 5th century A.D.

Asa'd Abu Karb was the True Builder of Kaabah in the Beginning of the 5th century A.D.

It is said that prior to the construction of the Kaabah, a tent existed on the spot where it was built.[ii][2] The tribe of Khuzaa'h came from Yemen around the 2nd  century A.D.  In the 4th century A.D., they moved toward the area where Mecca was eventually built. Since they didn't find a temple there in which to worship, they pitched their tent in a field.


    Information from the writers of the 8th century A.D., who depended on information from the time of Mohammed, indicates the Kaabah was built at the beginning of  the 5th century A.D. by a  Himyarite pagan Yemeni leader named Asa'd Abu Karb. He is also called  Abu Karb Asa'd, and he reigned in Yemen from 410 to 435 A.D.[iii][3]  The fact that the Islamic historians admit that Asa'd Abu Karb was the first ruler in history to dress the Kaabah is a significant indicator that he was the true builder of the Kaabah.[iv][4]  Dressing a temple in Arabia was the second stage of its construction. It included decoratively finishing the inside walls, putting carpets on the walls and the floor, and adding textured and crocheted items on various parts of the interior building. (Arabians will not pray in a temple which is not dressed.) Asa'd Abu Karb used Amer from Azed to build the inside walls of the Kaabah.[v][5] (Azed is a tribe which came from Yemen at the same time Khuzaah's tribe came.)  So Asa'd Abu Karb, the first to build and dress the Kaabah, must have first built it when there was just a tent where the Yemeni tribe of Khuzaa'h worshipped. Asa'd Abu Karb, also called Tubb'a, occupied the city of Yathrib before coming to Mecca.[vi][6]  It seems he found many temples in Yathrib, but when he came to Mecca, he didn't find any temple there. Because the inhabitants were recent emigrants from Yemen, Asa'd Abu Karb built them a modest temple in the Yemeni style. He did this to connect the people with himself. He also wrote a poem in which he described the sun setting in a spring of black mud, something Mohammed included in the Qur'an.

Additions by Quraish to the Building Which Asa'd Abu Karb Built

Quraish, the tribe Mohammed came from, later occupied the city. They acquired a black stone from Yemen so that their temple would be like all the other Kaabahs which, according to the worship of the Star Family of Arabia, were built around a black stone. Family Star worship started in Yemen, the place from which the Quraish emigrated. The first Kaabah built by Asa'd Abu Karb, had a wood roof. That roof burned, so next they used wood carried by a Byzantine ship, which stopped on the coast of the Red Sea at a place called  "al-Shaebieth". The owner of the ship was a Coptic Egyptian named Bachum. He sold the wood to them and made the roofing for the Kaabah.[vii][7]  Later, when Mohammed was still young, further elements were added to the simple building.[viii][8]

    These facts about the construction of the temple at Mecca should cause Muslims to question all that Ibn Ishak and his companions said about the city, in their attempt to back Mohammed's claim in the Qur'an that the temple was built by Abraham and Ishmael.

YEMENI RESPONSIBILITY IN BUILDING THE TEMPLE OF MECCA

The Yemeni tribe of Khuzaa'h built the city of Mecca in the 4th century A.D. Yemeni pagan religious worship has left its fingerprints all over the temple, showing that Abraham and Ishmael could not have built it.

We will discuss why the marks of Yemeni worship characterized the temple of Mecca. The sayings and customs of Mohammed are called Hadith. "Sahih Muslim" and "Sahih Buchari" are considered the main authoritative books which contain the words or Hadith of Mohammed. In those books, we read about Mohammed's custom  to embrace and kiss two stones, "the Yemenite Rukun" and "the Black Stone".  Ibn Abbas the cousin of Mohammed and the reporter of his authoritative Hadith, says that Mohammed customarily embraced the two Yemeni Rukuns. By "Yemeni Rukuns," he meant the Black Stone and the other stone, also called Rukun.[ix][9] From this we know that Kaabeh had two main elements, also called Rukuns, which were considered sacred. Those were the stones around which the Kaabeh was built. These were the true elements revered by the inhabitants of Mecca and by Mohammed.  

    It seems that the Black Stone was brought from Yemen at the time of Abdel Mutaleb, the grandfather of Mohammed. Islamic tradition claimed it was hidden with the spring of Zamzam for centuries prior to Mohammed.  I demonstrated previously that such a claim could not be true. The fact is that Mohammed and Islamic tradition endeavor to connect the pagan Yemeni worship of the ancestors of Mohammed, which transferred from Yemen to the Temple of Mecca, with Ishmael and Abraham, even though there are historical evidences that point to the contrary. We will look at some of them.

    First, the confirmed date of the construction of the city of Mecca is sometime after the 4th century A.D.  Abu Karb Asa'd was the first to consecrate the Kaabah, which reveals that he was the builder of the Kaabah. He did this during his reign in Yemen, which was between 410 and 435 A.D. The two Rukuns, or stones, which were the main elements of worship in the temple, were of Yemeni origin. The date on which the Black Stone first appeared in Mecca was at the time of Mohammed's grandfather, sometime between 495 and 520 A.D. Though Islamic tradition was aware of these facts, people invented unreliable stories to fill the historical gaps. I've already proved such stories are not logical, and are easily refutable.

     An important factor in tracing Yemeni responsibility for constructing the Temple at Mecca, and in establishing the true date of construction for such Temple, is found in the Himyarite kingdom of Yemen. Abu Karb Asa'd, the reigning monarch of Himyarite kingdom, tried to extend his empire over central western Arabia in order to control the spice route from Yemen to North Arabia, and then to the Fertile Crescent. Abu Karb Asa'd, also called Tubb'a, occupied the cities of central western Arabia at the beginning of the 5th century A.D. Among those cities were Mecca and Yathrib, also called al-Medina. The occupier's strategy was to bind these cities to his kingdom by reinforcing the Yemeni religious system which the inhabitants of Mecca and Yathrib were already embracing. The inhabitants of Mecca had emigrated from Yemen, so they were of Yemeni origin.  Yathrib was formed by two Yemeni tribes, Oas and Khazraj. They, too, emigrated to Yathrib after the dam at Yemen was damaged around 150 A.D. These tribes were living with two Jewish tribes, Beni Kharithah and Beni Nathir, which were already established. Abu Karb Asa'd was of Yemeni origin. He built the Kaabeh at Mecca to reinforce his rule over the city, and to show favor to the citizens of Mecca who were without a temple of worship. They, like him, shared the same pagan beliefs.

Tubb'a's ideas of Jewish and Yemeni pagan myths and their influence on the Arabians of central western Arabia, and consequently on Mohammed.

Tubb'a also tried to build bridges with the Jewish community in Yathrib. He learned their religious thoughts and rites. He learned the Jewish myths, such as the legend of the hoopoe bird  that announced the kingdom of Saba to Solomon. This myth came from the Jewish mythological book called the Second Targum of Esther. Mohammed incorporated the same myth into the Qur'an.

    To accomplish his ends, Tubb'a brought two Jewish rabbis to Yemen.
  • [10]  They added to his knowledge by teaching him many Judaic religious rites and myths, enabling him to mix various items in his own Yemeni pagan background with Jewish mythology and religious tradition. For example, he combined Arabian star worship with Jewish myths.  With mixed knowledge like this, he thought he could control the regions in central western Arabia, where people of Jewish and Arabian origin lived. He then claimed himself to be a prophet, expounding many thoughts which the Yemeni people considered indisputable about the sun, the earth and the cosmos. At Mecca, in an attempt to convince his listeners that he was a prophet, he taught that the sun sets in a spring of black mud.[xi][11] This myth, too, was incorporated by Mohammed in the Qu'ran.

        After his death, Tubb'a's claim left an impression on many groups, even on groups that lived until the time of Mohammed. Mohammed considered him as a Muslim and almost as a prophet.[xii][12]  There have been myths about Tubb'a among the Arabians. Al-Taberi attributed victories to him in China and Tibet. This is unhistorical, but it shows how great an impact Tubb'a left on the Arabians at the time of Mohammed,  to the point that many considered him to be a prophet.[xiii][13]

    The Kaabah of Mecca was built for the Arabian Star worship and it shares all the characteristic of the Kaabahs that were built for their worship.

    The fact that the temple at Mecca was built as a Kaabah for Arabian star worship is shown in many ways. First, it was built in the same architectural style as other Kaabahs in Arabia. They were all temples for the same Arabian Family Star religion, in which Allah is considered the head and Ellat is his wife. All the Kaabahs had a  Black Stone as the most revered element. It represented the star deity in Arabia. Many of the black stones were meteorites which the Arabs saw descending to earth. They thought the meteorites they were envoys from the moon, which was considered to be Allah himself. This is before that title was given to Venus, who replaced the moon as head of the star family.

        Another thing which shows that the Kaabah of Mecca  was built as a temple for Arabian star worship is that the Kaabah of Mecca reflects members of the star family in many of its elements. The main door of the Kaabah was called  "the door of worshippers of the sun,"[xiv][14] the wife of Allah.

    Mohammed confirmed that the origin of the Kaabah's faith was Yemeni.

    The role of Yemeni religious paganism in building the temple at Mecca, and its religious nature, cannot be hidden. Even Mohammed recognized the origin of the religious system of Mecca as Yemeni. Mohammed uttered many Hadiths about the Yemeni origin of the Kaabah faith.  Such teachings are reported in the authoritative Hadith, the book of al-Bukhari, in which Mohammed says: "the faith is Yemeni and the wisdom is Yemeni." In another Hadith, he says: "the doctrine and jurisprudence is Yemeni."[xv][15] Therefore, not just the Rukuns, the sacred stones in the Kaabah, were from Yemen, but also religious laws, doctrine and faith are Yemeni. It is undeniable proof that the temple of Mecca was constructed by a Yemeni leader according to a Yemeni pagan style and specification. He established Yemeni religiosity at Mecca, and it was known in other parts of Arabia. How, then, could Abraham have built the Kaabeh, if what we have learned about its construction is true? How did the Black Stone come from heaven, and how did Abraham sacrifice on it, and build the Kaabah around it, if the stone was not in Mecca before the 5th century A.D.?    How could Mohammed's teaching come from  Allah through the angel Gabriel and still be of Yemeni origin?

        The important Egyptian scholar, Tah Hussein, has criticized Islamic tradition for linking the construction of Mecca's temple to Abraham and Ishmael.[xvi][16]  Tah said :

    The case for this episode is very obvious because it is of recent date and came into vogue just before the rise of Islam. Islam exploited it for religious reasons."[xvii][17]

    If Muslims search diligently in history, like this great Egyptian scholar did, they will reach the same conclusion.

    Establishing the Date the Tribe of Khuzaa'h Built Mecca

    Many historical elements help us determine the true date Mecca was built.  One major factor is the damage which occurred to the dam of Ma'rib in Yemen around the year 150 A.D. It caused the emigration of many families and tribes from Yemen to the north. One of these families was the family of Amru bin Amer, a Yemeni individual whose progeny fostered many tribes. Among them was Khuzaa'h, which settled in central western Arabia.  Later, they built the city of Mecca.

        Other tribes which came from  Amru bin Amer were Oas and Khazraj. They settled in Yathrib, also called al-Medina, where the Jewish tribes of Beni Kharithah and Beni Nathir were already located.

        From the writings of Tabari, the famous Arabic historian, we understand that this happened at approximately the same time the Lakhmids moved from Yemen to Mesopotamia. It is also the same time Amru bin Amer, the father of Khuzaa'h, moved from Yemen.[xviii][18] The Lakhmids came from Yemen in the 2nd  century A.D. They lived in a region of Mesopotamia later known to be the city of Hira. Later the Persians used them to protect Persian borders with the Byzantine Empire, which was dominating Syria. The first Lakhmid king was Amr I bin Adi, who ruled from 265-295 A.D.[xix][19] The serious collapse of the dam of Ma'rib precipitated the emigration of tribes such as Ghassan, which settled in the Byzantine border; Shammar which inhabited the Syrian Desert; and other tribes which emigrated to the north of Arabia and the Fertile Crescent.[xx][20]  Some of these tribes were related to each other because they were progeny of Amru bin Amer.[xxi][21] Other tribes who came out of Yemen at the time the dam collapsed were Oas and Khazraj. They went to live in al-Medina. Ozd al-Sarat went to al-Sarat, a location near Orfeh, which is near where Mecca was built. The tribe of Khuzaa'h inhabited a place called Mur, also called Mur al-Thahran,[xxii][22] another place near where Mecca was built.[xxiii][23]

    Mecca was Built by Khuzaa'h as a Desolate Station on the Spice Route

    There was no city named Mecca in that area; otherwise, Khuzaa'h and Ozd would have inhabited it, as Oas and Khazraj inhabited the city of Yathrib. For more than a century and a half Khuzaa'h remained in the area near where Mecca was later built. They then decided to build a station on the caravan route where traders could rest and conduct business.  If Mecca had existed before Khuzaah's emigration from Yemen, Mecca would have been the city to which they would go to search out a living, even as their sister tribes, Oas and Khazraj, went to Yathrib to benefit from commerce and agricultural activities of the Jewish tribes there. But neither Khuzaa'h nor Ozd, as new emigrants in semi-deserted areas around the area where Mecca eventually built, found a city to host them when they left Yemen. They waited more than 170-200 years before building a city on the caravan route, which became a station for the caravans competing with Yathrib, which was about 200 miles away. The station they built, was called Mecca.

        It is important to note that none of the tribes who came from Yemen inhabited Mecca. If Mecca was in existence at the time the dam was seriously damaged, around the year 150 A.D.,  we would find many tribes locating in Mecca, because it is closer to Yemen than Yathrib is to Yemen. But, because the area where Mecca was eventually built was desolate and had no cities, it induced the tribes of Ozd and Khuzaa'h to live there. They did so, although they  previously lived in a civilized city in Yemen which was Ma'rib, the capital of Saba. This is an important argument which points out that Mecca could not have existed before Khuzaa'h built the city in the 4th century A.D.

        Let's review these historical facts. I've shown that the Yemeni tribe of Khuzaa'h built the city of Mecca in the 4th century A.D. We've seen the connection between the temple of Mecca and Yemeni pagan religious worship.  All this shows that the claim of Islam about Abraham and Ishmael building the temple of Mecca contradicts the true historical facts. Building faith on the sand is unwise. I pray that our Muslim friends will return to true faith as found in history and announced in the Bible.  In the Bible they can find a solid foundation, documented in the writings of the prophetic books, and considered by historians to be the accurate resource for ancient history.

       Religion Research Institute -Home

    [1] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, page 524

    [ii][2] Al-Azruqi, Akhbar Mecca, 1/6

    [iii][3] A. Jamme, W.F., Sabaean Inscriptions from Mahram Bilqis (Ma'rib), the Johns Hopkins Press, Baltimore, 1962, Volume III, page 387; there are also Texts numbered by G. Ryckmans after himself, G. Ryckmans, Le Museon 66 (1953), pages 363-7, p1.V; quoted by  K.A. Kitchen , Documentation For Ancient Arabia, Part I, Liverpool University Press, 1994, page 219

    [iv][4] Al-Azruqi, Akhbar Mecca, 1:173; Yaqut al-Hamawi, Mujam al-Buldan, 4:463

    [v][5] Ibn Saad, Tabakat, 1, page 64

    [vi][6] Ibn Hisham 1, page 20

    [vii][7] Halabieh 1, page 235; Ibn Hisham I, page 157; al-Azruqi, Akhbar Mecca I, page 104

    [viii][8] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, page 526

    [ix][9] Sahih Muslim 9, page 15

  • [10] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, page 426-428; al-Ya'akubi I, page 226
[xi][11] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, page 429

[xii][12] Halabieh I, page 280

[xiii][13] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, pages 331, 332, 360

[xiv][14] Halabieh I, page 236

[xv][15] Al-Bukhari 5, page 122; Halabieh I, page 259

[xvi][16] Quotation by Alessandro Bausani, L'Islam, Garzanti Milano, 1980, page 208

[xvii][17] Quoted in Mizan al-Islam by Anwar al-Jundi, page 170 ;Behind the Veil, page 184

[xviii][18] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, pages 431 and 360 also mentioned the emigration to the area of Hira in Mesopotamia of tribes descended from Maad bin Adnan from Yemen.

[xix][19] K.A. Kitchen, Documentation For Ancient Arabia, Part I , Liverpool University Press, 1994, page 251

[xx][20] James Montgomery, Arabia and the Bible, University of Pennsylvania Press, Philadelphia, 1934, page 126; Montgomery also quotes Philby, The Heart of Arabia, II, page 97

[xxi][21] Ibn Hisham I, page 12

[xxii][22] Ibn Hisham I, page 13

[xxiii][23] The commentators on Ibn Hisham I, page 13


    *  The Classical Writers and Mecca - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * Archaeology  and Mecca - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The Bible and Mecca- By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The Kaabah and the Arabian Star Worship - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The Role of the Temple at Mecca in the Jinn Religion and in the Arabian Family Star Religion - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The True Story of the Construction of the Temple of Mecca - By Dr. Rafat Amari

Peter

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Re: How Old is the City of Mecca?
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2010, 03:03:50 PM »
THE HISTORY AND ARCHAEOLOGY OF ARABIA SHOW THAT MECCA DID NOT EXIST BEFORE THE ADVENT OF CHRISTIANITY.

                                                                                                                                                      By Dr. Rafat Amari


The richness of the archaeological findings and inscriptions of many regions of Arabia.

Islam claims that Mecca is an ancient historical city which existed long before Christ, dating as far back as the time of Abraham. A powerful argument against this claim is the absence of any inscriptions found on monuments, or in any archaeological records dating back to those times. The ancient cities and kingdoms of Arabia do have rich histories which survive to this day through monuments, the inscriptions they bear, and in other archaeological documents. These historical records have given archaeologists a highly-integrated and, in some cases, complete record of the names of kings who ruled these cities and kingdoms. These records have also given archaeologists important information about the history of the wars fought over the kingdoms and cities of Arabia. In most cases, inscriptions and monuments in various cities – especially in the western and southwestern portions of Arabia – even give the names of coregents who ruled with the kings. Yet, even with this rich collection of historical and archaeological information, there are no inscriptions or monuments, or other archaeological findings whatsoever, that mention Mecca.

   Regarding the richness of the archaeological findings in Arabia, Montgomery says that Assyrian inscriptions did not provide as much detailed information as the Arabian inscriptions did.[1]

 

If Mecca existed in ancient times, it should have more archaeological findings than did regions south and north of it, whose history is richly documented through archaeology.

This lack of mention of Mecca is especially interesting, given the fact that Mecca was built on the caravan routes between the kingdoms of Arabia, and that these kingdoms had written historical records several centuries before Christ. In fact, Mecca is built on what was the famous commercial route between southern Arabia and the northern Arabian cities of Qedar and Dedan. In addition, Mecca was built alongside the Red Sea trading route.

    It is claimed by archaeologists that the Sabaeans of southwestern Arabia had utilized the skill of writing since the 10th century B.C.[2] Inscriptions on rock formations in southwestern Yemen are among the richest archaeological finds among Middle Eastern civilizations.  Many thousands of these ancient inscriptions are available to historians today. Most of these inscriptions have survived without serious degradation, due to the small amounts of rain in that area of the world.

    In northern regions of Arabia, some hundreds of miles north of where Mecca was later built, many cities had rich inscriptions carved in stone, and the inscriptions give us the names of various dynasties which ruled those cities. Dedan and Teima are examples of cities situated on famous trade routes. Located north of what became the site of Mecca,  their stone, rock and monumental inscriptions are enough to reflect their history since the 8th or 7th century B.C.

    What about Mecca? Mecca was built on a location between the documented civilizations (the Sabaeans, Dedan and Qedar), yet these civilizations do not have any known inscriptions whatsoever which mention Mecca. Mecca, if it had existed at the time of those civilizations, would have contained more intact inscriptions than the civilizations which lived in the regions south of it – for example, in Yemen. The region around Mecca is known for its very low amounts of rain, even compared with the other regions of Arabia. The lands of Yemen have ten times more rainfall than the area around Mecca. Also, the cities of northern Arabia have much more rain than the region of Mecca. So, if Mecca existed several centuries before Christ, then its inscriptions in stone and rock would have been more intact than the thousands of inscriptions remaining from the cities to the north and south of it .

    Over the years, historians and archaeologists have identified a series of rulers and kings for every Arabian kingdom before the 7th century B.C., and continuing through subsequent centuries. Based on thousands of inscriptions and other archaeological findings, historians have drawn tables listing the rulers, and the kingdoms which they controlled. We find such tables in the works of K. A. Kitchen, Von Wissmann and others.

    Today, we can trace the history of each kingdom or city which existed in the first millennium before Christ, and in the years that followed.  Although there are a few unattested names, for many locations we also can easily connect the names of the rulers with their cities, using virtually certain information.


NORTHWEST ARABIA IS ATTESTED TO IN ARCHAEOLOGY
 
The Cities of Qedar, Dedan and Teima  

Let’s look first at northwest Arabia and the cities of Qedar, Dedan and Teima. The series of rulers over some of the northern cities of Arabia, such as Qedar, is almost completely documented as far back as the 9th century B.C. Major contributing factors to this are the many annals of the kings of Assyria and Babylonia who had relationships with the Arabian cities. The Assyrian and Babyl-onian kings traded with the cities of Arabia, and sometimes subdued them or had wars with them. Some of the Mesopotamian kings who occupied the cities of Qedar and Dedan had royal chronicles which provide detailed information. For example, we have the Nabonidus Chronicle, a history of the Babylonian king who occupied northern Arabia and made the city of Teima his residence for about ten years, from 550-540 B.C.

    Some historical records were carved into bowls. We have one silver bowl dedicated to the shrine, Han Ilat, on which we see the name of King Qaynu of Qedar, who reigned between 430-410 B.C.[3] Other records are provided by graffiti, with writings on the walls, such as the Graffito of Niran at Dedan, at al-Ula, where we find mention of Gashmu I, son of Shahr I, King of Qedar.[4] This confirms the Biblical narration found in Nehemiah 6:6 about this king who opposed Nehemiah in the rebuilding of the city of Jerusalem, after the Babylonian exile. In fact, the Hebrew Biblical name for this king is Gashem, a variation of the name Gashmu, who reigned from the Arabian city of Qedar from 450-430 B.C.,[5] at the same time that Nehemiah returned from the Babylonian exile to rebuild the walls of the city of Jerusalem. We know that Nehemiah took a small contingent of Jews and returned to Palestine around the year 445 B.C. This is one of hundreds of historical proofs of the accuracy of the Bible.

    When we put the records together, we have a series of fourteen kings and queens who ruled in northern Arabia. Although historians are uncertain about the period between 644-580 B.C., there are no other gaps in the listing of rulers between 870-410 B.C.

   The accuracy of inscriptions found at the archaeological site of El-Ula, in the area of the ancient city of Dedan, was written in Minaean language. It shows that the city was in subjection to the kings of Main. Many of these kings who were mentioned in the inscriptions were identical to the Minaean inscriptions of Yemen.[6]

    In the old ruins of Teima, there are many inscriptions, showing the names of their gods, and their wars with other cities and tribes in the region, including their wars with the city of Dedan. The moon in Teima was represented by a crescent.[7] In the inscriptions of Teima, there is mention of a god called Lame'h. Lame'h is described as a brilliant shining star. One of their deities is given the title of Rahim, whom I believe is the star deity, Lame'h.[8] The same title is given to Allah in the Qur’an, which shows that Islamic worship has its roots in ancient pagan Arabian worship.

      

The North Arabian Tribes of Thamud, Lihyan and the Nabataeans are Richly Attested to in Archaeology


Next, I want to look at the Thamud tribe of north Arabia, which appeared for the first time in the 8th century B.C. and continued until the 5th century A.D. There are hundreds of Thamudic stone or rock inscriptions found in many places in north Arabia which tell about the .....

Much more.
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/archeology.htm

Peter

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Re: How Old is the City of Mecca?
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2010, 03:07:02 PM »
[III] THE ARCHAEOLOGICAL ANALYSIS


If we are to take the Qur'anic and Biblical records seriously, we will need to inquire further as to whether there are other sources which we can turn to for a corroboration of their accounts. Since we are dealing with scriptures which often speak of history, probably the best and easiest way to confirm that history is to go to the areas where the history took place because history never takes place in a vacuum. It always leaves behind its forgotten fingerprints, waiting dormant in the ground to be discovered, dug up and deciphered. It is therefore, important that we also get our digets dirty and take a look at the treasures which our archaeologist friends are discovering, to ascertain if they have been able to reward us with any clues as to the authenticity of both the Qur'anic and Biblical accounts. Let's see what archaeology tells us concerning the Qur'an.

[A] THE QUR'AN'S ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE:

As with the manuscript and documentary evidence, there is not much archaeological data to which we can turn for corroboration of the Qur'an. What we can do, however, is look at the claims the Qur'an makes and ascertain whether they can be backed up by archaeology. Let's start with the Qibla, or direction of prayer.

(1) The Qibla:
According to the Qur'an, the direction of prayer (the Qibla), was canonized (or finalized) towards Mecca for all Muslims in or around 624 A.D. (see Sura 2:144, 149-150).

Yet, the earliest evidence from outside Muslim tradition regarding the direction in which Muslims prayed, and by implication the location of their sanctuary, points to an area much further north than Mecca, in fact somewhere in north-west Arabia (Crone-Cook 1977:23). Consider the archaeological evidence which has been and is continuing to be uncovered from the first mosques built in the seventh century:

According to archaeological research carried out by Creswell and Fehervari on ancient mosques in the Middle East, two floor-plans from two Umayyad mosques in Iraq, one built at the beginning of the 8th century by the governor Hajjaj in Wasit (noted by Creswell as, "the oldest mosque in Islam of which remains have come down to us" - Creswell 1989:41), and the other attributed to roughly the same period near Baghdad, have Qiblas (the direction which these mosques are facing) which do not face Mecca, but are oriented too far north (Creswell 1969:137ff & 1989:40; Fehervari 1961:89; Crone-Cook 1977:23,173). The Wasit mosque is off by 33 degrees, and the Baghdad mosque is off by 30 degrees (Creswell 1969:137ff; Fehervari 1961:89).

This agrees with Baladhuri's testimony (called the Futuh) that the Qibla of the first mosque in Kufa, Iraq, supposedly constructed in 670 A.D. (Creswell 1989:41), also lay to the west, when it should have pointed almost directly south (al-Baladhuri's Futuh, ed. by de Goeje 1866:276; Crone 1980:12; Crone-Cook 1977:23,173).

The original ground-plan of the mosque of Amr b. al As, located in Fustat, the garrison town outside Cairo, Egypt shows that the Qibla again pointed too far north and had to be corrected later under the governorship of Qurra b. Sharik (Creswell 1969:37,150). Interestingly this agrees with the later Islamic tradition compiled by Ahmad b. al-Maqrizi that Amr prayed facing slightly south of east, and not towards the south (al-Maqrizi 1326:6; Crone-Cook 1977:24,173).

If you take a map you will find where it is that these mosques....

Much more
http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/qurarch.htm

Peter

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Re: How Old is the City of Mecca?
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2010, 03:14:10 PM »
What is the Ka'ba? Part 12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qdxWT_slTs

"It is an astounding fact that in the Quran the name of Mecca is never mentioned, while in the Bible the name of Jerusalem is mentioned 667 times."

Actually I just did a KJV search. Jerusalem is mentioned 814 times in 767 verses.

In contact with Muslims some have suggested that the name Mecca was earlier the Bakka of the Quran, but as far as I know this is pure presumption, and there is only A SINGLE reference to this place in the Quran. Isn't it peculiar that the holiest place in Islam deserved only a single reference in the Quran, while Jerusalem is mentioned 814 times in the word of God?

003.096 The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings:


If Muslims cannot find a body of archaeological and historical information that proves that Mecca existed before the Christian era, then obviously the false prophet Mohammed's 7th century religion goes up in smoke.

Isn't that interesting! A city that is the center of Mohammedan worship and fables, and supposedly rich with a long history of pilgrimage etc. dating back to Abraham, contains no evidence, not even artifacts, or historical record whatsoever, that it even existed prior to the Christian era. Does the term desert mirage come to mind?!

A city that is the center of Mohammedan worship that is only referenced a single time in the Quran (to my knowledge), as compared to Jerusalem, for example, that is mentioned 814 times in the Word of God.
Indeed Mecca, and the rock god filled Ka'aba, was a lucrative tourist trap, before Mohammed, and still is today! In fact Muhammad and his 'Muslim' followers were circumambulating the Ka'ba while it was still a PAGAN SHRINE.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1050.msg4100#msg4100

And yet the modern Muslims bow to the sole surviving pagan rock god still located there, 5 times a day, and even go and march around and around the rock, hoping for a chance to rub on it and kiss it, as the pagans did that same rock, and the rest of the 350 Ka'aba rock gods, before Mohammed.

It should be pointed out that Meteorite veneration is certainly not unique to Mohammedan Islam, as the event of a rock falling from the sky was awe inspiring to men throughout the history of mankind, and so, naturally, meteorites were venerated as a result. Hindus do it too.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6biu8_kaabahindu-shiva-temple-garbhagriha

Muslims even prostrate themselves toward the black rock (originally white until a menstruating women touched it and turned it black.)
"The black stone turned black because it was fingered by a menstruating woman" Tabari 5:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpl4Q7Ul_wo

They even pray the prayers of the heathen to it in the same fashion the pagans before Mohammed did.

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Now I can understand it of 7th century desert dwelling illiterates who were adverse to working for a living, and found it more convenient to follow Mohammed because it gave them an opportunity to steal the property, wives, and children of others, but how can the ignorance to Mecca not existing before the Christian era, and rock god veneration, be explained of Muslims in this 21st century information age?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UnrVCQFmh0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qdxWT_slTs
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1050.0

Peter

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Re: How Old is the City of Mecca?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2010, 10:49:53 AM »
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-arabs-descendants-of-ishmael.htm

Encyclopedia of Islam Myths: Arabs are not descendants of Ishmael!
Refuting the Arab claims
Refuting the Islamic claims


Islam: Truth or Myth? start page


   1. "Arabian literature has its own version of prehistoric times, but it is entirely legendary." (Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. 2:176)
   2. "there is no historical evidence for the assertion that Abraham or Ishmael was ever in Mecca, and if there had been such a tradition it would have to be explained how all memory of the Old Semitic name Ishmael (which was not in its true Arabian form in Arabian inscriptions and written correctly with an initial consonant Y) came to be lost. The form in the Quran is taken either from Greek or Syriac sources." (Islam, Alfred Guillaume, 1956, p 26-27, 61-62)
   3. The first positive reference to the Arabians extant occurs in an inscription of the Assyrian, Shalmaneser III, who speaks of the capture of a thousand camels from Gindibu, the Arabian, in 854 B.C. (Islam and the Arabs, Rom Landau, 1958 p 11-21)
   4. According to Muslim tradition, God told Abraham to begin the rite of pilgrimage to Becca (now Mecca). In a rite called tawaf, Arab pilgrims from time immemorial circled the stone counterclockwise seven times and ran seven times between the two promontories in memory of Hagar's seven passages. The historicity of this Abrahamic tradition is difficult to confirm; the first verifiable reference to the Arab people occurs in an inscription of Shalmanezer III dated 853 BC. (The Joy of Sects, Peter Occhigrosso, 1996, p394-397)
   5. "The pure Arabs are those who claim to be descended from Joktan or Qahtan, whom the present Arabs regard as their principle founder...The 'Arabu �l-Musta�ribah, the mixed Arabs, claim to be descended from Ishmael.they boast as much as the Jews of being reckoned the children of Abraham. This circumstance will account for the preference with which they uniformly regard this branch of their pedigree, and for the many romantic legends they have grafted upon it...The Arabs, in their version of Ishmael�s history, have mixed a great deal of romance with the narrative of Scripture." (A Dictionary of Islam, pgs. 18-19)
   6. "Muhammad was not informed about the family of Abraham." (Encyclopedia of Islam) I: 184. See also pages 544-546.
   7. "There is a prevalent notion that the Arabs, both of the south and north, are descended from Ishmael; and the passage in Gen. xvi.12, "he (Ishmael) shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren," is often cited as if it were a prediction of that national independence which, upon the whole, the Arabs have maintained more than any other people. But this supposition is founded on a misconception of the original Hebrew, which runs literally, "he shall before the faces of all his brethren," i.e., (according to the idiom above explained, in which "before the face" denotes the east), the habitation of his posterity shall be "to the east" of the settlements of Abraham�s� other descendants...These prophecies found their accomplishment in the fact of the sons of Ishmael being located, generally speaking to the east of the other descendants of Abraham, whether of Sara or of Ketuah. But the idea of the southern Arabs being of the posterity of Ishmael is entirely without foundation, and seems to have originated in the tradition invented by Arab vanity that they, as well as the Jews, are of the seed of Abraham--a vanity which, besides disfiguring and falsifying the whole history of the patriarch and his son Ishmael, has transferred the scene of it from Palestine to Mecca." (McClintock and Strong, Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, (Vol. I:339)
   8. In the Qur�an, "Gen. 21.17-21...are identified with Mecca." (The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, p. 193). It also states that the Southern Arabs come from Qahtan, not Ishmael (p. 48).

 

The Arab Claim to Palestine because they are descendants of Ishmael:
By Robert Morey

The Arabs� claim to the land of Israel rest entirely on three false assumptions:

   1. All Arabs are the descendants of Abraham through Ishmael.
   2. Ishmael and his descendants were included in the covenant God made with Abraham.
   3. Since the Abrahamic convenant included the land of Israel, the Arabs have a legitimate claim to it.

Ten Historical Facts that refute these Arab claims:

   1. According to the Torah, when Abraham left Ur of the Chaldees, he went West to what is now called Israel (Gen. 12 ff.). He became a dweller in tents in that land. It was in Israel that God made a covenant with him for the land in which he was living at that time. It was in Israel that he fathered Isaac, Ishmael, and many other sons and daughters. Isaac was the only son of Abraham chosen by God to be the heir of the covenant. Abraham took Isaac to Mt. Moriah to be offered up as a sacrifice to God.
   2. The Torah is contradicted by Qur�an at nearly every point. According to Surah 2:119-121, Abraham and Ishmael did not dwell in tents in Israel but in the city of Mecca in Arabia. Together they rebuilt the Kabah and placed the black stone in the wall. It was Abraham who started the tradition of an annual pilgrimage to Mecca, throwing stones at the devil, etc. Abraham took Ishmael (not Isaac) to nearby Mt. Mina to offer as a sacrifice to God.
   3. Ishmael�s twelve sons were named Nebaioth, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. (Gen. 12:11-16) They intermarried with the local population in North Arabia and produced several nomadic tribes know as the "Ishmaelites."
   4. It was prophesied in the Torah that Ishmael and his family would "live to the East of all his brothers." (Gen. 16:12) "And they settled from Havilah to Shur which is east of Egypt as one goes toward Assyria." (Gen 25:18) This broad area is the desert section East of Egypt in Northern Arabia toward the kingdom of the Assyrians.
   5. The Ishmaelites are mentioned as a distinct tribe in the Assyrian records. They later intermarried with and were absorbed by the Midianites and other local tribes. In Gen. 37:25-28; 39:1, the Ishmaelites are called the Midianites and in Judges 8:22-24 cf. 7:1f, the Midianites are called the Ishmaelites. The identification cannot be made any stronger.
   6. Arabia was already populated by the descendants of Cush and Shem long before Abraham or Ishmael were born (Gen. 10:7). Their cities and temples have been well documented by archeologists.
   7. If all the Arab people descended from Ishmael as Muhammad claimed, where did all the original Arabs go? What happened to them? Who did Ishmael marry if the Arabs did not already exist? If Arabia was unpopulated, who built Mecca? Since he lived there, obviously it existed before he was born. The facts speak for themselves. The Arab people existed before, during, and after Ishmael moved started roaming the wilderness of North Arabia.
   8. The descendants of Ishmael were scattered in Northern Arabia from the wilderness of Shur to the ancient city of Havilah. They were absorbed by the local tribes such as the Midianites (Gen. 37:25-28; 39:1; Judges 8:24). There is no historical or archeological evidence that Ishmael went south to Mecca and became the "Father" of the Arab race. Some modern Arab scholars admit that before Muhammad, Qahtan was said to be the "Father" of the Arab people, not Ishmael.
   9. The Abrahamic Covenant was given only to Isaac and to his descendants. Ishmael and the other sons of Abraham were explicitly excluded by God from having any part of the covenant made with Abraham. (Gen. 18:18-21)
  10. Therefore the descendants of Ishmael and the other sons of Abraham do not have any claim to the land of Israel because they are not included in the covenant God made with Abraham. Only the Jews have any claim to the land of Israel.

The Islamic Claim to Palestine because they are descendants of Ishmael:

Muslims like to claim that Islam gave them the right to claim the land of Israel as their own. This claim rests upon two false assumptions:

   1. All Arabs are the descendants of Ishmael;
   2. Muhammad went to Jerusalem.

Three Historical Facts that refute these Islamic claims:

   1. The first assumption has already been proven false. The Arab people are not all the descendants of Ishmael and hence they are not the heirs of the Patriarchs, the prophets, the Scriptures or the land of Israel.
   2. The claim that Muhammad went to Jerusalem is false. According to the Qur�an and the Hadith, Muhammad had a dream in the middle of the night in which he traveled through the sky, visited seven heavens, met great people like Jesus, and visited the Jerusalem. Since this was only a dream, he was never actually in Jerusalem. The Mosque on the temple site in Jerusalem is a hoax built on the lie that Muhammad stood on the site.
   3. Nowhere in the Qur�an does it state that Ishmael is the progenitor of the Arab race. Since it is not taught in the Qur�an, it cannot be a true Islamic belief.

Conclusion

The Arab people are not the children of Ishmael. Even if they were, they would still have no claim to Israel because Ishmael was excluded by God Himself from having any part in the covenant made with Abraham. Isaac was the only heir of the Abrahamic covenant. Thus the Arabs as a people have no claim to the land of Israel.

The Muslims have no claim to the land of Israel either. Muhammad never went to Jerusalem except in a dream. The only ones with a spiritual and biblical claim to the land of Israel are the descendants of Isaac, the Jews.

Other references:

    * The Encyclopedia of Religion, Vol. 7, pg. 296 where the connection between the Midianites and the Ishmaelites is noted.
    * The Shorter Encyclopedia of Islam, pgs. 178-179.
    * A Popular Dictionary of Islam, p. 127.

Peter

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Re: How Old is the City of Mecca?
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2010, 01:01:15 PM »
Rev 2:17     He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it].

And Islam? Always the opposite - a black stone.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0


Peter

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Re: How Old is the City of Mecca?
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2010, 07:50:46 AM »
Quoting from a site

Despite what Muslims are taught and erroneously believe (Mecca was established in Abraham's time), Mecca has actually only existed post 3rd or 4th century AD, There is NO (absolutely NONE) historically documented or archeological evidence to prove Mecca's (or Baka or Macoroba, if muslims wish) existed before this time. If Mecca had existed since the time of Abraham, who were its trading partners (no evidence exists). None of the people (Greek and Roman historians and geographers) as well as the other tribes living in the area (e.g. Nabataeans, Kinda) who visited the area between the time of Abraham and the 3rd / 4th century AD ever mention such a place which, had it indeed existed according to Muslim belief, would have been the most well-known and most thriving city on the continent. Muslims will insist otherwise. However, they have yet to produce any such historical or archealogical evidence. Incidentally, the Quran itself CANNOT be used as their documented evidence since it was not written by an individual actually living through or within the period/events being discussed.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_old_is_the_city_of_mecca

Peter

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Re: How Old is the City of Mecca?
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2010, 05:15:56 PM »
In YouTube this is the only information I have been presented thus far

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html

When we look at a reasonable source,

http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/classical.htm

we find that even the vague claims that "...temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians." was in no way a reference to the Kaaba, or Mecca ever having existed, but in fact the quote was removed from context and was Agatharchides (and others) Description of a Temple Along the Gulf of Aqaba of the coastal tribe of the Batmizomaneis.
Even Mohammed's tribe went on annual pilgrimage to a holier place than Mecca, long after the Kaaba was built.

The first link is ridiculous pile of presumptions that go far beyond anything like a stretch.