Mecca video chat webd

[Peter]

I inquired on this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGZHI_NcV8s

Can anyone bring to bear the ARCHEOLOGICAL & HISTORICAL evidence that Mecca existed prior to the Christian era?
If it was the epicenter of Mohammed's religion, from the time of Abraham, surely there would be the bucketfuls of ARTIFACTS that we find in every load of dirt in Jerusalem. Surely the closer one got to Mecca, the greater? the volume of such EVIDENCE.
What we in fact find, is that prior to the Christian era, Mecca was nothing more than a mirage.
brotherpete. com/index. php?topic=1066.0

My comment was censored so I inquired by PM as to why my original post got censored.

web replied by PM
"I am supposed to show you that Islam existed before Christianity with historical and archeological records? Islam is not tangible, it is a practice in case you did not know. Your comments get censored because you advertise your website of falsehood on my channel."
______________________

So I reposted sans link.

(below panels copy and pasted on 3-9-10)

[Peter]

PeteWaldo (2 weeks ago) Show Hide

Can anyone bring to bear the ARCHEOLOGICAL & HISTORICAL evidence that Mecca existed prior to the Christian era?
If it was the epicenter of Mohammed's religion, from the time of Abraham, surely there would be the wealth of ARTIFACTS that we find of other Arabian cities, and in virtually every load of dirt in Jerusalem. Surely the closer one got to Mecca, the greater the volume of such EVIDENCE.
What we in fact find, is that prior to the Christian era, Mecca was nothing more than a mirage.

[Peter]

PeteWaldo (2 weeks ago) Show Hide

Psalms 84:6 [Who] passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.

You went through a lot of trouble when all you had to do was read the next verse:

84:7 They go from strength to strength, [every one of them]IN ZION appeareth before God.

Thus we see this passage describing a journey to ZION - to Jerusalem - to the Holy Land.


webdawah (2 weeks ago) Show Hide

Zion was originally a Jebusite stronghold located in or near Jerusalem or is equal to Jerusalem. King David captures this stronghold and it is renamed City Of David. David sets up the tabernacle there and Solomon retrieves it from there to place the ark and utensils in the temple. Isaiah mentions that YHWH dwells on Mount Zion (8:18) and later writers relate the name Zion to the eternal Jerusalem (Hebr 12:22) and heaven (Rev 14:1)...


webdawah (2 weeks ago) Show Hide

Because Zion was originally not Israeli, the name Zion comes to us probably from a language other than Hebrew. TWOTOT mentions an Arabic root s-w-n (under 1910), to protect, defend, which may give Zion the meaning of fortress. Others (says TWOTOT ) suggest derivation from a root saha, be bald...


webdawah (2 weeks ago) Show Hide

...Spelled the way it is, however, the name Zion is identical to the word (sayon 1909b) meaning place of dryness, from the assumed root (syh 1909). Derivation (siya 1909a), dryness, drought, occurs in Psalm 105:41.
Perhaps the notion of a dry place taps into the creation account, and specifically the third day, or in the Noahic flood account. A dry place is not a place where people die of thirst, but rather a place where the sea is no more, after it has given all her treasures (Rev 21:1)...


webdawah (2 weeks ago) Show Hide

...On the Biblical canvass, the name Zion means Dry Place.

Another name that means Dryness is Horeb.


webdawah (2 weeks ago) Show Hide

Copied from abarim-publications website.

[Peter]

PeteWaldo (2 weeks ago) Show Hide

Where are the artifacts? If Mecca had been the epicenter of Allah's people - since Adam - where are the artifacts?
Jerusalem is the epicenter of Judeo/Christian beliefs. The closer you get to Jerusalem the more abundant artifacts become. You can't hardly pick up a shovel full of dirt in Jerusalem, without finding artifacts. They have 1 million artifacts already on display.
If Mecca has been the epicenter of Islam why is there no historical or archaeological record from before the first century?


PeteWaldo (2 weeks ago) Show Hide

Absent archaeological and historical record, prior to the first century, Mecca existed as nothing more than a desert mirage.


PeteWaldo (2 weeks ago) Show Hide

"Zion is identical to the word (sayon 1909b) meaning place of dryness..."
Did you even look at your self contradiction before you posted it?

Haven't you ever even read the Bible?
Zion is referenced 153 times in the Word of God.
Zion is the easternmost hill in the city of Jerusalem.
"...Zion: the same [is] the city of David."
"...covenant of the LORD out of the city of David, which [is] Zion."
"For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion..."


webdawah (2 weeks ago) Show Hide

The reference you gave initially from Psalm was Zion, not mount Zion. A place of dryness does not contradict what is true of Mecca. It is geographically a desert region. Next..


PeteWaldo (2 weeks ago) Show Hide
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Even your initial premise is absurd. Over the 23 years of Mohammed's record, how did the Makka of suras 48:24 and 33:50 suddenly become the same as the Bakka of sura 3:86?

The same kind of abrogation where non-violent verses of the Quran are abrogated by verses that call Muslims to violence against non-Muslims?

You write "Next..." as if your case is closed, yet all you did was quote an 18th century writer quoting presumptions of a 1st century writer and ridiculous exegesis of the bible.


webdawah (1 week ago) Show Hide

This is the typical tactic of people who do not like to admit that they have a weak argument. Surahs 48 and 33 have nothing to do with the archeological evidence or historical records for the Ka'abah.
However to enlighten you since you want to go that route, Surah 48 talks largely about the victory of the Treaty of Hudaibiyyah, which is preceded by the victory over the confederates, mentioned in Surah 33. Surah 3:86 talks about hypocrites, and people you hide what they know to be true. Next...


webdawah (1 week ago) Show Hide

"people who hide..."


PeteWaldo (1 week ago) Show Hide

"Surahs 48 and 33 have nothing to do with the archeological evidence or historical records for the Ka'abah."

Indeed! Quran cannot be relied on as a historical record of Mecca because it was written in the 7th century.
The question I posed was how did "Makka" change to "Bakkah" over just a 23 year record?

"Next..."
So where is the archaeological and historical record that demonstrates that Mecca ever existed before the first century?
Try a web search of the subject.
WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE?


webdawah (1 week ago) Show Hide

It was not a change, but a reference to the same. The same land that has bore two different names.

[Peter]

PeteWaldo (2 weeks ago) Show Hide

Indeed all the REAL record shows is that the Kaaba was an Arabian pagan temple built some time between the first century and Mohammed, to house 360 rock idols, that Mohammed eventually threw out ...... except one.
But then veneration of meteorites is nothing new in the habits of mankind. There is plenty of historical and archaeological record to confirm that.


webdawah (1 week ago) Show Hide
Marked as spam
Reply
You answered your own question. Islam does not permit the worship of idols, nor the engraving of images or anything of that kind. How are you supposed to find artifacts?


PeteWaldo (1 week ago) Show Hide

Islam does not permit the worship of idols...]]]

Yet you don't hesitate to bow to & venerate a black stone.

[[[[[..... nor the engraving of images or anything of that kind. How are you supposed to find artifacts?]]]]

Because if Mecca had been the center of Islamic worship since Abraham, remnants of old city would exist. Stuff folks used in everyday life would be in evidence, like the million artifacts on display in Jeruslamem.
Mecca, nadda. Because it didn't exist prior to first century.


webdawah (1 week ago) Show Hide

I don't know if you read the comments you post. Muslims do not venerate the black stone, it's significance is only historical and part of the story of the Ka'abah. There is no such thing as the mention of a stone, or inanimate object in our prayers or worship. Like I said earlier, it is forbidden.
If you have been anywhere close to the Ka'abah, you would know that there's no way for artifacts to be found. You would have to dig under the mosque to find anything if that would be allowed.


PeteWaldo (1 week ago) Show Hide

"Muslims do not venerate the black stone..."

venerate
1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion

Any Muslim that denies VENERATION of the black stone, is not much of a Muslim since each Muslim must travel to it and march around it and rub on, or kiss it, or at least point to it on each circuit around it, during Hajj. The pagans that ran the Kaaba before Mohammed did the same thing.


webdawah (1 week ago) Show Hide

What part of the Islamic tenet requires the veneration of the black stone? I would like to see a non-Muslim teach me about Islam.


PeteWaldo (1 week ago) Show Hide

"What part of the Islamic tenet requires the veneration of the black stone?? I would like to see a non-Muslim teach me about Islam."

I provided the definition for "venerate" 1 : to regard with reverential respect
You not only bow toward the rock 5 times a day, but every Muslim IS REQUIRED to go on Hajj to Mecca at least once in a lifetime, to march around the rock 7 times, rubbing, kissing, or at least point to it on each round.
Even Roman Catholics aren't REQUIRED to venerate their objects.


webdawah (1 week ago) Show Hide

I asked you to provide the Islamic injunction to what you claim. Stop repeating your inane assertions.


PeteWaldo (1 week ago) Show Hide

It's a MATTER OF FACT that all Muslims DO regard with reverential respect, a black stone in the Kaaba, and even go on Hajj to it. Otherwise they wouldn't bother with Hajj, and would pray in any direction.

Google - hajj tawaf 7 times - for the details in the prior post. Regarding Hajj

[22:27.8] "And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (means of transportation). They will come from the farthest locations."


webdawah (1 week ago) Show Hide

Give me an Islamic source that makes it an injunction to venerate the black stone.

[Peter]

PeteWaldo (1 week ago) Show Hide

There's plenty of such historical and archaeological evidence for ancient Arabian cities like Qedar, Dedan and Teima, but apparently NONE for Mecca prior to the first century. Where is the ancient city? Where are the remnants of thousands of years of civilization there?
None because Mecca didn't exist prior to the first century. It was settled some time between the first century and Mohammed, perhaps by a bunch of pagan rock idol worshipers.
Here's a video on the subject.
watch?v=O4ZAH6r8vHg


webdawah (1 week ago) Show Hide

The ancient Bakka is Mecca, and there is ample evidence from the Bible, and the Qur'an. Archeological artifacts may not be found without digging under the mosque.


PeteWaldo (1 week ago) Show Hide

Because "...the Yemeni tribe of Khuzaa'h built the city of Mecca in the 4th century A.D. "
"The date on which the Black Stone first appeared in Mecca was at the time of Mohammeds grandfather, sometime between 495 and 520 A.D."
"Asad Abu Karb was the True Builder of Kaabah in the Beginning of the 5th century A.D."


webdawah (1 week ago) Show Hide

Where's the reference for your ridiculous claims?


PeteWaldo (1 week ago) Show Hide

I would have put a link with the quote but last time you removed my post with a link. Copy & paste the quote into Google or type in Dr. Rafat Amari.
Where is YOUR historical & archaeological evidence that Mecca existed prior to the first century?
Failing that, whose claims of Abraham having anything to do with Mohammed's 7th century religion thousands of years later and 766 miles away are "ridiculous"?
Were lots of Kaabas in Mohammed's day and each had a black stone. Iranians just built another.


PeteWaldo (1 week ago) Show Hide

If my claims are ridiculous then why did the classical authors, who visited and wrote about western Arabia mention all the tribes who were living there, even the tiny ones, never once mention Mecca?
Where are the artifacts that demonstrate that this city preceded the first century? You've produced nothing. Try a search like - archaeology of Mecca - or - archaeological and historical record of Mecca.


webdawah (1 week ago) Show Hide

What is artifacts found supposed to say? "Made in Mecca?" Your premise is illogical. Mecca was never always the name of the place, maybe if you are planning to be objective, you can find the answers you seek.


PeteWaldo (1 week ago) Show Hide

"What is artifacts found supposed to say? "Made in Mecca?""

Are you this challenged? Do the 1 million artifacts on display in Jerusalem say "made in Jerusalem"?

Artifacts are identified by THE PLACE from which they are recovered. Where are the ARTIFACTS recovered from in and around Mecca, that would demonstrate that it has been the center of Mohammed's religion since Abraham?
There AREN'T any that suggest life at all, prior to the first century.
Where are the old city remains? They AREN'T.


webdawah (1 week ago) Show Hide

I really do wonder what artifacts you are looking for? Prayer rugs or what? Islam does not have anything tangible as a representation of the religion. The practice of Islam is in the hearts and not artifacts.
BTW, I? think a sense of humor eludes you.


PeteWaldo (1 week ago) Show Hide

Why do you keep insisting on RELIGIOUS ARTIFACTS?
Artifacts are ANYTHING left behind by people that have been inhabiting a place for thousands of years. Bowls, tools, remains of an old city, etc..
If Mecca had been the center of Islam for 3500 years there would be boatloads of the stuff.
It would be the most written about place in Arabia by the 6 BC to the 3 AD geographers/historians.
Yet the only reference I have seen any Muslim pull out of their hat is 18th cent Gibbons.
watch?v=LWCiNKxVsrE


webdawah (1 week ago)

So, you think that a sanctuary is equivalent to say, a city where people live and carry on with daily lives?
Besides, which archeologists have been digging around Mecca, and claimed not to have found anything?

[Peter]

PeteWaldo (1 week ago) Show Hide

religionresearchinstitute. org/mecca/classical. htm


webdawah (1 week ago) Show Hide

islamic-awareness. org/History/kaaba. html


PeteWaldo (1 week ago) Show Hide

islamic-awareness. org/History/kaaba. html
religionresearchinstitute. org/mecca/classical. htm
Compare the EVIDENCE from our two links & find the truth. (copy & paste the one I provided into a search engine)
The reference in yours to
"...temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians."
was a temple of the coastal tribe of the Batmizomaneis.
Even Mohammed's tribe went on annual pilgrimage to holy place long after the Kaaba was built.


webdawah (1 week ago) Show Hide

Is this from the same book referenced, or you just had to have a comeback?


PeteWaldo (1 week ago) Show Hide

Mohammed's tribe going on pilgrimage is in the Quran.
They also went on Hajj to "...Taif where there was also a temple called Kaabah of Ellat, or Kaabah of the Sun. This Kaabah was more significant and much older than the Kaabah of Mecca. All Arabs, including the tribe of Quraish from which Mohammed came, venerated this Kaabah."
(from Ibn Abbas in Tabari, Jami)


webdawah (1 week ago) Show Hide

Your source says he got this from Ibn Kathir, but you claim it is from Ibn Abbas. Which of you is the liar?

[Peter]

(This was censored)

Do a web search - Dr. Rafat Amari -
Where is the cacophony of Muslims shouting him down and calling him a liar? There isn't because he deals in FACT.
While you are on that search why not try reading some of his very enlightening papers?

[Peter]

(this was censored)

PeteWaldo (4 seconds ago) Show Hide

If you want to learn something about Mecca, copy and paste this link into Google
religionresearchinstitute. org/mecca/index. htm

[Peter]

PeteWaldo (1 week ago) Show Hide

Even if I misunderstood the source to credit it doesn't change the content of the quote. I see you didn't address the content of the quote.
Let's try a little consolidation of several points.

Do Muslims today, bow toward and circumambulate the same black stone that the pagan moon god worshipers circumambulated, before Mohammed?