Chat with psychlopes

[Peter]

Hi psy and welcome to the forum. I started trying to segregate but thought it easier to present the whole thing so we could revisit any unvisited points. Only edit is I livened up the links and added forum links. If you need help with how to quote or anything please let me know. The video in question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYcDZM8Hmg0

Pete answer to other poster Musto:

You are the one lying.
Listen to it again. He says that "Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus is the Christ is of God".

But anyway it's 1400 years too late to try the spirits that caused Mohammed to writhe on the ground and foam at the mouth.
1400 years too late to try the spirits that gave Mohammed his "revelations" alone in that cave.
That passage is about trying SPIRITS not men's words.
If a satanist said he believed that Jesus is the Christ, would that make him a true prophet of God?

psy

Spirit is a spook when it suites you and a prophet when it suites you and a God knows what else when it suites you. Your logic is twisted.

Pete

Try this. Deedat claimed that the First Epistle of John confirms that Mohammed was a true prophet. Did you ever read it?
In the upper right is a link to the same version that Deedat quoted from. Video version here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_4_tbN-b_A
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=179.0

On a quick read of that epistle do you agree with Deedat that it confirms Mohammed as a true prophet?

psy

My friend you have many versions of your bible that Deedat has quoted one version which is not wrong. look here I just did a simple search on google for that verse and each site gives a slightly different version than the other. I found the one Deedat quoted (on a christian site). It's not his fault you people don't have one solid version he can refer to. Stop lying to yourselves as well as others.

Pete

Deedat is quoting from the best English version of God's Word that we have. The King James Version.
But even if Deedat's phony verse were true, it would be a test of SPIRITS not PERSONS.

A Satanist would tell you that he believes that Jesus is the Christ. Would that make him a true prophet?
What about a liar that told you that?
What about someone that has been deluded by unclean spirits or demons like Mohammed?

Do you see how foolish his phony test is? Please watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKMMr4lZx2E

psy

The only one deluded by daemons my friend is you. You don't see all the contradictions in your bible, because you chose to look the other way.

Pete

In a book recited over the brief span of just 23 years, a whopping 71 out of only 114 suras are subject to abrogation, and who's looking the other way?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R2Zp7T5XlA
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0

psy

I couldn't go into the link you gave me for some reason it gives me an error, but it doesn't matter, you are wrong about that. I won't give details until I see think link in order to give an accurate informed answer. But know my friend that the Quran is infallible.

Pete

Comments won't post if they are pasted intact. They have to be copy and pasted, and then have a space put after the "dots".
To reconstruct a link simply copy and paste into the URL window, and then remove the spaces from before the com and htm, etc.

YouTube video links have to be pasted after the forward slash that comes after the "com" in the address above.

psy

will do that and get back to you then.

psy

If our prophet was deluded by daemons, then how come those evil daemons ordered all Muslims to do good in this word and be the best example of a clean way of living there is. You only fool yourselves when you say that, because you want to be able to drink wine and eat swine and do all the other things God commanded you not to do, and to feel unobligated to do all the things God commanded us to do. You want a feel-good religion.

Pete

Mohammed/Satan had to create the illusion of doing good, even as he sent his murders to kill poets, plunder caravans, or being the imperialistic slaughter of the First Jihad.
Hitler did the same thing.
And every other dangerous cult leader.

Satan convinced you to focus on what you perceived to be good parts, and ignore the rotted fruit of Islam, for THE EXACT REASON, that you wrote what you wrote here.

You don't seem to understand what a Christian is This should help:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ_26AE0G_8

psy

Shut your filthy mouth when you take the name of our prophet , I did not insult you or your prophet so do not be the initiator of hate. Your logic is flawed and baseless. And you are misinformed, read the context of those stories to know the truth, don't just read of an anti-Islamic sitge and think you know everything.

psy

and the KJV is not the best English version, he's quoting the RSV, which according to tens of eminent scholars and a heap of church denominations the best translation, buildoing on the KJV version, and citing the "most ancient" manuscripts. And in that version you find Deedat's quote.

Pete

Deedat quoted the KJV. READ IT and listen again:

(KJV) 1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

(RSV) 1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Why do you people insist on remaining bible-ignorant by just lazily listening to liars like Deedat?

psy

We are not bible ignorant, you are, you misread your bible, what little truth is left in it, and the rest your scholars change as they please. Have your Christianity, it won't help you in the hereafter.

Pete

What kind of ignorant "eminent scholar" would suggest that the RSV, a pop-modern version of the bible first published in 1901, that is based on a corrupt modern Greek translation written by two individuals in the 1800s, cites "...the "most ancient" manuscripts"?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=81.0

The same "scholarly" types as liars like Deedat?
Didn't you even see how Deedat's foolishness was exposed before writing more?
Please watch before you waste more space here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDslsWDzPIc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKMMr4lZx2E

psy

You say corrupt , others swear by it, who am I to believe, another guy say Catholics are blasphemous, a catholic says evangelists are full of BS who corrupted Christianity, get your act together, maybe then you won't find fault in our logic, because we have so many Christians with so many different views to debate with.

psy

And BTW it's not Deedat's test it's your bible's so if its phony then maybe that says something about your bible. And if someone says he believes in Christ then you give him the benefit of the doubt. and from the rest of his teaching you know if he is sent by God, And I tell you my friend, no religion on earth has a complete teaching in both spiritual and materialistic things as Islam does. We have a solution for every problem. Do you?

Pete

That is my bible's test of SPIRITS. Do you share the literacy of your false prophet? Didn't you read my reply?

A Satanist could honestly say he believes Jesus is the Christ. According to you that would make him a true prophet?
Can you see how stupid that is?

I get the material teachings of Islam. Especially Mohammedan heaven:

WATER, fruit, shade, chickens, multiple virgin sex partners, young boys as servants.

I get it better than you might think.
THE OPPOSITE of the things of God.

psy

In heaven God tells us that a believer will find what no eye has seen, no ear has heard and no mind has ever or will ever imagines.

Pete

Didn't you ever read the Quran?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=264.0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEfKpgiYgHY

psy

I'm assuming this is in reply to my response on heaven , there's more to what I'm trying to say, I'm just trying to keep up with you posting

Pete

"We have a solution for every problem. Do you?"

Christian trusts in Jesus. Our answers come through the Spirit.

But your suggestion that Muslims do may be the corker of my day so far. If Muslims have an answer for every problem, then why do Shiites and Sunnis murder each other?
Those solutions include shooting daughters in the head.
Search "islam honor killing".
Include killing your fellow Muslims that come to Jesus Christ.

The non-Muslim world is well familiar with Mohammedan "solutions".

Pete

There is a very simple test, for the spirit of antichrist in PERSONS, that uses the verse that Deedat borrowed a piece of:

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER:...

1Jo 5:10 He that BELIEVETH ON THE SON OF GOD hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; because HE BELIEVED NOT THE RECORD that God gave OF HIS SON.

psy

It's good you quoted those, because our prophet fit them nicely. We believe in christ, and we believe he is from God (the father) but we don't believe he was the begotten son, we believe you misinterpreted that, we are all God sons (his good servants). We are the only religion on this earth other than Christianity in which Jesus is acknowledged as anything. we believe he was the messiah. And we follow God's commandments. Even when Christians don't.

Pete

Are you illiterate, or are you just unaware that you are supposed to deny the Son of God?

You believe that Jesus is the only person in the history of mankind to be conceived in a virgin, expressly by the will of God, yet deny the hundreds of verses that declare him God's Son and God His father:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmbvtuW4ZFE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geGTBo2X3sY

beget:
1. To father; sire.
2. To cause to exist or occur; produce: Violence begets more violence.

If God didn't begat Jesus, who caused Him to be manifest to us?

psy

But then again, God uses the word son to refer to tens of people in the bible, are they ALL sons of God in that sense? What about Adam? he had no mother nor a father, was he a God?

Pete

"...we don't believe he was the begotten son, we believe you misinterpreted that,..."

The reason you believe that is you have been lied to. Consider:

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Greek term "gennao" translated "begat" in that verse, is translated that way on 27 other occasions.
It's proposterous to suggest that it just happened to be translated wrong on all 27 occasions.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=215.0

psy

What about the Aramaic world from which that was translated?. Besides, I've already told your bible has already been tampered with over history. Bring me the original book written in the days of Jesus himself directly by his faithful disciples and I will believe you when you say that he said he was the son of God. Oh wait, there isn't any such book!!!

psy

And there are many verses in the same bible of yours "KJV" in which God addresses prophets or refers to them as "spirits" You take everything literally when it suites your purposes. But when someone points out something that is a contradiction you are quick to adopt the "The bible didn't mean that literally" defense. Open your eyes we're not attacking your religion, we are attacking your whimsical treatment of God's word (as it was) adding, omitting and interpreting things as you see fit

Pete

Your first sentence is a flat out lie, unless you back it up with those scriptures.

What contradiction did you point out and when did I respond as you suggest?

It is of absolutely no importance to me if those that follow A SINGLE, STAND-ALONE, 6th century false prophet attack my religion, as they have for 1400 years.

What should matter TO YOU is how the 1400 year revelation of God to mankind through ALL OF THE PROPHETS, and legions of witnesses, attacks your reprobate false prophet. Example:

PeteWaldo

1Jo 5:10 He that BELIEVETH ON THE SON OF GOD hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; because HE BELIEVED NOT THE RECORD that God gave OF HIS SON.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

psy

See you are repeating yourself as if that by itself is a proof, this verse proves nothing other than that you are too willing to interpret what you read in the bible according to what suites your belief. What was supposed to go in the bible and what was to be left out was decided by a show of hand hundreds of years ago. What you have between your hand now isn't only corrupted, but someone else decided what you should and should not see of the bible.

Pete

You are presuming that I saw the answer to the last time I posted that, which I didn't.
That is the problem with this limited 500 character format.
If you aren't afraid why not join me in a forum where we can quote each other, paste in live links, and hold each other accountable? It will be just you and I engaged:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=12.0

Copy and paste that link in the window above, and then remove the spaces from before the com and the php and push enter on your keyboard.

psy

Sure no problem, just let me post a few replies here, but only if you promise to refrain from using insults. I'm sure you won't tolerate me insulting you or your God, so please do not insult me or my prophet or God.

psy

Wow, what a hostile environment ... lol, I'll be playing on the opponents playground. Not to worry though. I'll go

psy

Hey, I opened an account there, first, what thread should I enter, my name there is psychlopes. Second, I'm not a scholar, seemingly you are, so if we are going to do this we have some ground rules, first no insults from either party, second, since you have the home advantage, I will take my time replying in order to verify what I'm going to say, so don't make it a point to hold that against me as if a sign of weakness of my religion itself.
____________________________

A day later for some reason psy didn't ask in here but asked on the video:

Pete, I wasn't talking about translation, I was about referring to someone as a spirit. But here's something to think about. Why does God say "Do not believe every spirit" and then continues "because many false prophets are gone into the world" Why not "because many false spirits are gone into the world"


And also remember, here he is talking to the people not to prophets, he's telling them do not believe every spirits, if they are as you say the spirits that come to prophets to give them revelations, then how can the people test the spirits, he should have said "do not believe every prophet" Since people do not have direct contact with those spirits

[Peter]

psy

Sure no problem, just let me post a few replies here, but only if you promise to refrain from using insults. I'm sure you won't tolerate me insulting you or your God, so please do not insult me or my prophet or God.

It's interesting. I can only picture a Christian feeling pity on someone for insulting God or Jesus or any of the prophets.
The insult would be considered between the insulter and God Himself.
That's why pity would be felt rather than hostility, or fear, or bruised ego, or some other such personal response.

Sometimes this is a Muslim effort to preclude others from calling Mohammed a false prophet. I cannot refrain from doing that because according to the Word of God, he is.
Mohammed's book labels Jesus, and the prophets and apostles of the bible, false prophets.
Muslims only see a one way street.

For example:
Mat 26:28 For this is MY BLOOD of the new testament, which is SHED FOR MANY for the remission of sins.

That's what the New Testament and the new covenant Jesus brought was all about.
The WHOLE SUBJECT of the New Testament.
So anybody that denies it calls Jesus and all of the apostles and witnesses, false prophets. Insults them all.

Surah 4:157  That THEY SAID (in boast), "WE KILLED CHRIST Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- BUT THEY KILLED HIM NOT, NOR CRUCIFIED HIM, but so it was made to appear to them,... FOR OF A SURETY THEY KILLED HIM NOT:-

See what I mean? Mohammed insults Jesus by denying His sacrifice. By extension that means Muslims insult my prophet.
Another example:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

That's probably the best known verse in all of Christianity. The very core of Christian belief. One absolute doctrine that ALL Christians agree on. That God manifest Himself in His Son Jesus Christ who died on the cross as a sacrifice to save us from sin.

And Mohammed?

Surah 9.30 The JEWS call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the CHRISTIANS call Christ THE SON OF ALLAH. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. ALLAH’S CURSE BE ON THEM: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=215.0

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious HAS BEGOTTEN A SON!" 89 INDEED YE HAVE PUT FORTH A THING MOST MONSTROUS!

See? They are exact and perfect opposites. But it's no problem for me that Mohammed and Muslims insult God and Jesus. That's a problem for you.
That's why I devote my time to bringing you folks the gospels.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com

[Peter]

Hi psy and welcome to the forum. I started trying to segregate but thought it easier to present the whole thing so we could revisit any unvisited points. If you need help with how to quote or anything please let me know. The video in question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYcDZM8Hmg0

Pete answer to other poster Musto:

You are the one lying.
Listen to it again. He says that "Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus is the Christ is of God".

But anyway it's 1400 years too late to try the spirits that caused Mohammed to writhe on the ground and foam at the mouth.
1400 years too late to try the spirits that gave Mohammed his "revelations" alone in that cave.
That passage is about trying SPIRITS not men's words.
If a satanist said he believed that Jesus is the Christ, would that make him a true prophet of God?

psy

Spirit is a spook when it suites you and a prophet when it suites you and a God knows what else when it suites you. Your logic is twisted.

Could you provide an example of when it "suited me" to confuse the terms spirit and prophet?
Seems it is your sense of right and wrong, that is twisted, through false accusation.

The two terms are only synonymous for liars like Deedat, to advance their foolish and false agendas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKMMr4lZx2E

Strong's definitions:

the spirits
New Testament Greek Definition:
4151 pneuma {pnyoo'-mah}
from 4154; TDNT - 6:332,876; n n
AV - Spirit 111, Holy Ghost 89, Spirit (of God) 13,
Spirit (of the Lord) 5, (My) Spirit 3, Spirit (of truth) 3,
Spirit (of Christ) 2, human (spirit) 49, (evil) spirit 47,
spirit (general) 26, spirit 8, (Jesus' own) spirit 6,
(Jesus' own) ghost 2, misc 21; 385

prophet
New Testament Greek Definition:
4396 prophetes {prof-ay'-tace}
from a compound of 4253 and 5346; TDNT - 6:781,952; n m
AV - prophet 149; 149

You can see by the word counts in the definitions above that:
The Greek word pneuma, translated as spirit, is NEVER translated as prophet.
The Greek word prophetes, translated as prophet, is NEVER also translated as spirit.

[Peter]

Pete

Try this. Deedat claimed that the First Epistle of John confirms that Mohammed was a true prophet. Did you ever read it?
In the upper right is a link to the same version that Deedat quoted from. Video version here:
watch?v=U_4_tbN-b_A

On a quick read of that epistle do you agree with Deedat that it confirms Mohammed as a true prophet?

psy

My friend you have many versions of your bible that Deedat has quoted one version which is not wrong. look here I just did a simple search on google for that verse and each site gives a slightly different version than the other. I found the one Deedat quoted (on a christian site). It's not his fault you people don't have one solid version he can refer to. Stop lying to yourselves as well as others.

The King James Version is the most widely respected English translation there is. The modern versions are very poor by comparison. But why not stop the obfuscation? Did you read the First Epistle of John? It is short and easy to read. You can read it in the forum right here:
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=179.0

Do you agree with Deedat? Does John's First Epistle confirm Mohammed as a true prophet?

[Peter]

Hey, I opened an account there, first, what thread should I enter, my name there is psychlopes. Second, I'm not a scholar, seemingly you are, so if we are going to do this we have some ground rules, first no insults from either party, second, since you have the home advantage, I will take my time replying in order to verify what I'm going to say, so don't make it a point to hold that against me as if a sign of weakness of my religion itself.

I'm not a scholar either. Just a guy with an interest in seeking out the truth.
Here are a couple of my favorite bible tools:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/
http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

This is what I use for the Quran:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

You have all the time there is. At least that is left before Jesus returns! That's the nice thing about this relaxed format.
Also after you post you have the ability to edit your post. I often edit profusely, but if an edit materially changes the content, I make a note of it. If it only corrects my own English, adds to the comment, or embellishes on a point, I don't make a note of it.

[Peter]

A day later for some reason psy didn't ask in here but asked on the video:

psy

Pete, I wasn't talking about translation, I was about referring to someone as a spirit. But here's something to think about. Why does God say "Do not believe every spirit" and then continues "because many false prophets are gone into the world" Why not "because many false spirits are gone into the world"

Why not attend to the few posts I already entered? I held back making more because I wanted you to respond to each before I went forward.

Trust me, I have thought about it. I have also encountered unclean spirits. I know two elders that have had extensive experience driving out unclean spirits and demons.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/man_of_sin.htm#try_the_spirits

I guess what I sometimes forget is that Islam wouldn't be under satanic attack, because Satan and his false prophet Mohammed already have Muslims in their back pocket.

But the ecclesia has been under satanic attack ever since the first century. John even wrote about it near the end of the First century.
God's people were under satanic attack long before that, throughout the old covenant too.

And also remember, here he is talking to the people not to prophets, he's telling them do not believe every spirits, if they are as you say the spirits that come to prophets to give them revelations,......

It isn't about my opinion friend. Look at what's happened to the church, not only by Constantine's hand but also in spades in the 19th century, because people haven't been vigilant to "prove all things" and "try the spirits" but instead walk in the precepts of men:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm#cults

Even today a guy named Todd Bentley had a preposterously out of order "healing" ministry. Most these things are Pentecostal. You can YouTube the guy. He claimed visitations by a 9 foot tall angel named Emma.

....... then how can the people test the spirits, he should have said "do not believe every prophet" Since people do not have direct contact with those spirits

Exactly. That's why witnesses are so important. When Mohammed went in a trance and foamed at the mouth and writhed on the ground that may have presented an opportunity. Definitely in the cave if indeed he was visited.
Just the way you see a New Age person channeling a spirit.
Any spirits in the church need to be tried. Best to use the EXACT wording of that verse as they can be tricky.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/man_of_sin.htm#try_the_spirits

Here's a personal experience I had.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/man_of_sin_revealed.htm