Chat with NoIslamNoPeace

[Peter]

The following PM was sent to a heavily credentialed Imam at a large U.S. Islamic center. Answered by the following person who disclaimed representing the imam and then requested I reply on the following YouTube channel that he started for the purpose.

http://www.youtube.com/user/NoIslamNoPeace

Personal message 12-4

Dear Mr. [name witheld]
Considering your position in Islam, I would imagine that you have a lot of resources at your fingertips, and hope you will be able direct me to some information.
While ancient Arabian towns are very well attested in the historical and archaeological records, search as I may, I haven't been able to locate any such record of Mecca prior to about the 4th century AD, when the historical record suggests immigrants from Yemen settled the area.
Could you direct me to some historical and/or archaeological information regarding Mecca prior to the 4th century AD?
Thanking you in advance for your kind attention in this I remain,
Pete

[Peter]

reply 12-19

Hello pete. Thank you for contacting us. First, let me inform you that I am replying on behalf of myself, and not the actual account holder (Imam [name witheld]).

My name is [name witheld]. As per your question, the first thing that came to mind when you said Mecca was the word Bakkah in the bible. Any Jewish scholar or learned Jewish man will be able to confirm with you that Bakkah in the bible is indeed Mecca, and this biblical reference is in the old testament, which im sure you know is prior to the 4th century AD.

You seem like you like to research things so go ahead and research Bakkah in the old testament and get back to us. I will also relay your question to [name witheld], the Imam and account holder. Any further questions, please feel free to message us again.

You can also head to [name witheld] to see if there are any books which may be of interest to you. Thanx.

Oh, and sorry for the delay.

[Peter]

12-19

Thank you for your response my friend. You replied

[[[[Hello pete. Thank you for contacting us. First, let me inform you that I am replying on behalf of myself, and not the actual account holder (Imam [name witheld]).

My name is [name witheld]. As per your question, the first thing that came to mind when you said Mecca was the word Bakkah in the bible. Any Jewish scholar or learned Jewish man will be able to confirm with you that Bakkah in the bible is indeed Mecca and this biblical reference is in the old testament, which im sure you know is prior to the 4th century AD.

You seem like you like to research things so go ahead and research Bakkah in the old testament and get back to us.]]]]


I have researched it and am familiar with that passage from Psalms. The Old Testament name is "Baca" and one only has to research as far as the next verse to be able to pin the location.

Psalms 84:6 [Who] passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools. 7 They go from strength to strength, [every one of them] IN ZION appeareth before God.

That passage refers to a pilgrimage of Yahweh's people to his temple IN ZION. Zion is mentioned 152 times in the KJV as it is the name of the easternmost hill in Jerusalem. The pilgrimage was to the temple that Yahweh had His people build on the temple mount IN JERUSALEM, that still exists today.

But surely you didn't intend for a misunderstanding of a single Old Testament passage to stand in as thousands of years of pre-4th century historical and archaeological record of Mecca, that allegedly dates all the way back to Adam.

For example there are over a million artifacts just on display in Jerusalem. One can't hardly lift a shovel full of earth in Jerusalem without uncovering such artifacts.

If Mecca had been the center of worship for thousands of years the city and surrounding area would be choked with such artifacts representing thousands of years of humanity there. Let alone that Mecca would also be attested in the historical record of Arabia as other ancient Arabian towns are.


[[[[I will also relay your question to [name witheld], the Imam and account holder. Any further questions, please feel free to message us again.

You can also head to [name witheld] to see if there are any books which may be of interest to you.Thanx.

Oh, and sorry for the delay.]]]]

No trouble, and once again, thank you. I look forward to your reply, whenever you get the opportunity.

[Peter]

12-20

Hi Pete. It is me again. You should know that Zion and Bacca are different places, and as the bible states, they "passed through the valley of bacca".

As I said before, you may confirm this with any lerned jewish scholar or rabbi before sending me another message for further discussion. Simply referring to the next bible verse does not explain off the fact that Bacca is Macca. Anyhow, I don't want to turn [name witheld] account into a debate forum so perhaps we should agree to disagree and leave it there. I'm only here to upload videos :) Take care.
____________________

Oh and one last thing: Let me know what the Jewish scholar or Rabbi says when you ask them about bacca. I look forward to hearing their reply.
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Oh and pete... "Bakkah (Arabic: بكة‎) is an ancient name for Mecca, the most holy city of Islam.[1]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakkah

[Peter]

12-20

[[[[Hi Pete. It is me again. You should know that Zion and Bacca are different places, and as the bible states, they "passed through the valley of bacca".]]]]

You seem to be suggesting that YHWH's people left the Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs, to wander across 1200 kilometers of harsh desert to pass through Mecca, and then wander the 1200 kilometers back up to ZION, on their way to the temple that YHWH had them build IN ZION. And this to have taken place most of a millennium before the first caravan is recorded as having been able to travel along the Red Sea.

[[[[As I said before, you may confirm this with any lerned jewish scholar or rabbi before sending me another message for further discussion.]]]]

Since it's difficult for me to imagine a Jewish scholar, much less most "any learned Jewish scholar" suggesting what you did, I would appreciate you helping me out with some links, papers, or contact information to those that would suggest such a thing. What Jewish scholar or rabbi confirmed that for you?

[[[[[Simply referring to the next bible verse does not explain off the fact that Bacca is Macca.]]]]

Indeed, history and geography make that a conspicuous impossibility. Regarding the valley of Baca:

“The Valley of Rephaim lay southwest of Jerusalem and formed part of the boundary between Judah and Benjamin (Joshua 15:8). It may correspond to the ‘Valley of Baca’ (Psalm 84:6), due to the balsam trees that were there (1 Chronicles 14:14-15). These are named, literally, ‘weepers’ because of their drops of milky sap.” (Payne)

But you didn't address the most important points of my response. Do you believe that a misunderstanding of a single Old Testament passage will take the place of thousands of years of pre-4th century historical and archaeological record of Mecca? This when Mecca is

Why is it that other ancient Arabian towns are very well attested in the historical and archaeological records, yet for Mecca, this supposed epicenter of Islam going all the way back to Adam, has no record prior to the 4th century AD?

[[[[Anyhow, I don't want to turn [name witheld] account into a debate forum so perhaps we should agree to disagree and leave it there. I'm only here to upload videos :) Take care.]]]]

[Peter]

Don't you have a Temple in your area? I can no onger assist you in this matter. Perhaps you should invoke the "holy spirit" or whatever god you worship and seek his/her assistance. I have given you all I'm willing to give and I bid you farewell. Thanx!
________________________

[[[[Don't you have a Temple in your area? I can no onger assist you in this matter.]]]]

No Rabbi ever told you he believed Baca had anything whatsoever to do with Mecca, did he? Nor would any Jewish scholar suggest such nonsense.

[[[[[Perhaps you should invoke the "holy spirit" ....]]]]

I don't invoke the Holy Spirit, but rather am guided by the Spirit, even as you seem to prefer to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

[[[[.... or whatever god you worship .....]]]]

I worship the one true God YHWH as He is revealed through ALL of His prophets and witnesses in His 1600 year record to mankind. You profess the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel through Muhammad's STAND-ALONE 23 year 7th century record.

[[[[[...... and seek his/her assistance. I have given you all I'm willing to give and I bid you farewell. Thanx!]]]]

I think you meant to say that you gave me ALL YOU HAVE to give, because as your vacant replies further demonstrated, there is not a shred of evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD or it's Kaaba before the early 5th century when pagan immigrants from Yemen built it for Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship.
I'll pray for your recovery.

sent with SIMON MAGNUS, GNOSTICISM, THE EBIONITES
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPNr-e2phhs

[Peter]

12-26

[[[[[I still can't figure out how anyone would benefit from our "Bacca" discussion.]]]]]

Because it's one of the biggest and most preposterous lies on the internet, which is saying quite a bit, since there are lots of Muslim websites. Do a google and then a YouTube search of - bakkah, baca, mecca makkah - and look at the parade of scripture, history and geography ignorant parrots.

Just count the videos and such, that leave out the very next verse.

84:7 They go from strength to strength, [every one of them] IN ZION appeareth before God.

Some even include it and then cut it off right before the "IN ZION" when they quote the scriptures. KNOWING full well their LIE IS EXPOSED by including it. Yet they go right on anyway, and their dupes parrot their tripe.

It's a great way to illustrate how a large group of people can all believe, and without hesitation parrot, A LIE.

Look how you even embellished on it by suggesting that...
"Any Jewish scholar or learned Jewish man will be able to confirm with you that Bakkah in the bible is indeed Mecca"

The reason you were able to casually lie is because you follow the father of lies through his prophet Muhammad.

Why don't you answer the question? Did the Jews leave Israel, wander 1200 kilometers to pass through Mecca, just to wander 1200 kilometers back up to THE TEMPLE YAHWEH HAD THEM BUILD IN ZION?