Author Topic: 4 - 1290 DAYS  (Read 13735 times)

Peter

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4 - 1290 DAYS
« on: May 04, 2010, 01:31:52 PM »
4 - 1290 DAYS

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CHAPTER 4

Be not ye like your fathers,
which trespassed against the
LORD God of their fathers,
who therefore gave them up
to desolation, as ye see.

2 CHRONICLES 30:7

WHEN  I began  this  study of Revelation  twenty-two years ago,
what I really had in mind was finding scriptural support for the
Seven-Year Tribulation view that I was so confidently teaching. I
was just as convinced as everyone else that there was going to be
one. So the surprise of my life came when I couldn't prove that
view from Scripture. Major pillars of that view are the prophetic
"days" of Dan 12:11-12 . We now  realize we should probably
interpret those days as years. But if they are years, how do we
know when they began or when they end? For that, we need look
at when the Lord gave this prophecy to Daniel:

Daniel 10:1  In the third year of Cyrus the Persian, a thing was
revealed unto Daniel ... but the appointed time was  long:
and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the
vision.


Daniel 10:1 to Daniel 12:13 is the final vision of Daniel's prophetic
ministry. The year was 533BC and the prophecy is obviously about
the future of Daniel's people, the Jews then in captivity. A major
portion of this prophecy is a detailed account of the Medo-Persian
and  Greek  control  of  the  Jews  in  the  Holy  Land  during

 40  The False Prophet

 Photo 1



 1290 Days  41

the next 400 years. The Babylonian empire had fallen some three
years earlier and Daniel was now a very old man, probably in his
nineties. He had been a captive in Babylon for 73 years. According
to Ezr 3:2, the Jews had just begun their trek back to the Holy
Land under the leadership of a Jewish prince named Zerubbabel
and a high priest named Jeshua. That is the historic setting for
Daniel's final prophecy, within which is a curious passage about
"times" and another about days:

Daniel  12:11  (NASB)  And  from  the  time  that  the  regular
sacrifice is abolished, and the abomination of desolation is
set up, there will be 1,290 days.


Curious,  indeed.  Are  these  prophetic  "days"  just  ordinary
twenty-four hour days, or could they be years again,  like they
were in the 69 weeks ... and if they are years, what is an "Abom-
ination that maketh Desolate," as the King James calls it? Well, the
verse refers to the "daily sacrifice" and since those sacrifices were
only offered at the temple in Jerusalem, then temple sacrifices
were probably involved. As a result, that abomination would have
to be something done to God's temple site that would defile it and
make it impossible for the priests to offer sacrifices there. It was
true  in Daniel's  time and  it  is  true now. God has not changed
where sacrifices should be offered anywhere in the Bible.1

But to which abolition of sacrifices is the Lord referring in this
"1290-day" prophecy? Now please, let's not try to make a New
Testament  doctrine  out  of  this  Old  Testament  Scripture.  The
___________________________

1  The OT continually corrects Israel's people for offering on the "high places,"
instructing them to bring their offerings to the temple instead (2 Ch 28:24-25).
Priests were authorized to sacrifice only on the Altar of Burnt Offering (Deu 12:10-
14); so to the Jews, an Abomination that made Desolate would be anything that
kept them from offering sacrifices on the temple site. Levitical law dictated that
anyone who desecrated the temple was to be stoned with stones until dead. In
defiance of this, a Greek king, Antiochus Epiphanies, sacrificed a pig on the altar
of burnt offering (circa 168BC). That started the Maccabean revolt, and the
incident has been known ever since as an "abomination that made desolate." After
that  desecration,  the  priests  had  to  perform  extensive  purification  of  the  altar
before they could again offer sacrifices upon it.
__________________________

 42  The False Prophet

addressees are clearly defined. It is in Hebrew, to the Jews. It is
about  the  Holy  Land  while  Gentile  powers  were  ruling  there.
Context refers to "thy people" (Dan 12:1). Daniel was a Jew and
the prophecy was given to him,  so  it is to and about the Jews
during the Time of the Gentiles. There is no reason to believe the
Lord was telling Daniel about an abolition of sacrifices that might
take place 2500 years later, at the end of the Christian Era.
*
Sacrifices were suspended three times in the Old Testament:
once before Daniel (2Ch 28:24-25), once during the Babylonian
captivity (2Ch 36:19 and Ezr 3:6), and once, about four hundred
years later, by the Greek king Antiochus Epiphanies. So to which
event do you suppose the Lord might be referring?

Well, to whom was this prophecy given? To Daniel in 533BC.
Result:  we  have  every  reason  to  believe  that  the  Lord  was
referring to sacrifices that were abolished during Daniel's own life-
time: to an abolition of sacrifices to which Daniel could relate!
Was  it at  the  time  of destruction of  the temple?  It doesn't
seem so. Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the temple in 586BC, but the
prophet Jeremiah tells us that temple sacrifices continued long
after the temple was burned:

Jeremiah 41:5 ... from Shechem, from Shiloh, and from Samaria,
even fourscore men ... with offerings and incense in their
hand, to bring them to the house of the LORD.


Those men came to the temple at the end of the governorship
of Gedaliah (seven to ten months after the temple was burned), so
there had to be some purified priests in Jerusalem who were still
carrying on. Two more years pass, then in the very last chapter of
Jeremiah we read:

Jeremiah 52:30 In the three and twentieth year of
Nebuchadnezzar,  Nebuzaradan  the  captain  of  the  guard
carried away captive of the Jews seven hundred forty and
five persons.


 1290 Days  43

Nebuchadnezzar ascended the throne of Babylon in 606-
605BC. Twenty-three years later is 583BC. Therefore, this final
captivity of 583BC is a scripturally supportable time for the
sacrifices to have been abolished. Babylonians took the nobles,
artisans and priests captive; they left only the poorest people in
the land. There were apparently no purified priests left in the land
who could offer  sacrifices. What a devastating experience this
must have been for God's people in captivity.

Oh, how the Jews repented. From the Babylonian captivity to
this very day, they have not departed from the Lord their God, nor
has an  idol been seen among them. As  a conquered people  in
exile, they had 70 years to regret their waywardness, and they
never forgot it. Their repentance is poignantly recorded in this
short quote from an unknown psalmist:

By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down.
Yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
We hanged our harps
upon the willows in the midst thereof.
For there they that carried us away captive
required of us a song;
and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying,
Sing us one of the songs of Zion.
How shall we sing the LORD's song
in a strange land?

PSALMS 137:1-4

Though he was hundreds of miles from Jerusalem, Daniel knew all
about these new hostages. Another group of Jewish captives being
brought back to Babylon by Nebuzaradan, captain of the king's
guard, could not have escaped Daniel's notice.1 He was daily in
______________________________

1  For details on the Babylonian captivity, please refer to Graph No.1 on p24. It
cannot be positively proven from Jer 41:5 and 52:30 that sacrifices were abolished
in 583BC. However, there are N.T. prophecies that give ample support for that
date. Those prophecies will be discussed in later chapters.
______________________________

 44  The False Prophet

King Nebuchadnezzar's court (Dan 2:48-49). Oh, how it must have
hurt that saintly man to hear of the sacrifices being stopped and
of the Lord's temple in utter ruin. We can prove that the temple
site was abandoned during Daniel's lifetime from Dan 9:17 and
Ezr 3:2-3. With that historic background in place, let's look at Dan
12:11 again:

Daniel 12:11 And  from the  time that the regular  sacrifice  is
abolished, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there
will be 1,290 days.


By applying the day=year unit of measure to that verse,
Daniel could understand the vision. He remembered when the
regular evening and morning sacrifices were abolished. He looked
from that time on down 1290 Hebrew years into the future. He
knew that an unbelievable abomination was going to trespass on
the temple mount.1 An atrocity that would make it desolate. The
abomination to come would defile the site and prevent all future
sacrifices. What  could  that  terrible  thing  be? Daniel  could  not
know, but we can because 1290 years since the sacrifices were
abolished have already passed. They were over in 688AD.2
So what happened in 688AD? Well, from 685 to 705AD, the
Moslem Kalifah, Abd el Malik ibn Marwan, built a memorial to
___________________________________

1  This is how Daniel could understand the vision. God gave the 1290-day vision
fifty years after the regular sacrifices had been abolished. Looking back, Daniel
could see that  nothing of any special significance had taken place just 1290
ordinary days after their abolition, so he knew the Lord was speaking of some-thing
other than ordinary 24 hour days. Daniel then put together when sacrifices were
abolished with the definition for prophetic days given by the prophet Ezekiel (Eze
4:6 "I have appointed thee each day for a year.") and saw that the abomination
was still 1290 years in his future.
2  Some may argue that sacrifices could have been abolished a year or two earlier,
or a couple of years later than 583BC, as suggested by the author. But none argue
that they were abolished earlier than the destruction of the temple (586BC), nor
more than ten years later. The Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa Mosque were under
construction on the temple mount for about 20 years, from 685 to 705AD. Leaving
the  widest  latitude  for  scholarly  argument,  that  20-year  window  cannot  be
circumvented.
__________________________________

 1290 Days  45

Muhammad, the Dome of the Rock, on God's temple mount! Thus,
we now have a positive identification:

The Dome of the Rock is the Abomination of Desolation!

That is not just coincidence or  suppositional theology. The
day=year interpretation fits the words of Daniel 12:11 exactly and
it fits known history TO THE YEAR. The construction date of the
Dome of the Rock is a plain historic fact that you can prove for
yourself from any good encyclopedia or world history.

And  so,  for  the  first  time  in  Scripture,  we  run  into  the
Moslems.  Islam,  and  nobody  else,  was  responsible  for  the
construction of the Abomination that maketh Desolate!1
That temple mount of God Most Holy was made spiritually
desolate over 1300 years ago and it remains so today. The Jews
can.t offer sacrifices to the Lord on His holy mountain while that
structure to THE false prophet remains there. That is why there is
such an interest among conservative Jews about tearing it down.
It is no secret to the Jewish Rabbis that the Dome of the Rock is
an abomination that makes desolate. In the following chapters we
will see how the New Testament fully supports the identity of the
dome as the Abomination that maketh Desolate.

Now don't forget 688AD and the Dome of the Rock. We're
going to run into that date, and Islam, again and again.  And
remember 583BC, too.  Both dates are important.
_______________________

1 Jerry Landay in his book, The Dome of the Rock (Newsweek, New York, NY, 1972)
p. 18, records that when Khalifah Omar entered Jerusalem in 639AD, he was met
by Sophronius, Bishop of the Jerusalem Church, who showed him around the city.
Seeing the temple mount (then in rubble), Omar declared that he was going to
build  a  memorial  to  Muhammad  on  the  original  site  of  the  temple  of  God.
Sophronius exclaimed in horror, "Verily, this is the Abomination of Desolation as
spoken of by Daniel the prophet," and it now stands in the holy place. Though
Sophronius was a very old man of about 80, Khalifah Omar put him in prison and
to forced labor, the severities of which killed him.
The Dome of the Rock being the Abomination that maketh Desolate is not a
new theology. It's a truth that's been with the Church for over 1300 years, but
somehow we have managed to forget the prophetic words of Sophronius, Bishop
of the Jerusalem Church.
___________________________

 46  The False Prophet

 GRAPH NUMBER 5




Even

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Re: 4 - 1290 DAYS
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2010, 05:03:34 PM »
I'm grateful for your work being offered us at no cost on the internet - thanks a lot!
But I have a question about Daniel 12;11, that I can not find any certain answer to. When I just read the vers without thinking about any interpretations, it seem to me that the removal of the daily sacrifice AND the abomination that make desolate is happening at the same time - the first as a consequence of the latter. And the 1290/1335 days period is FROM the abomination and forward unto our lifetime now. Examples; Year 696 AD + 1271,5 = 1967,5 AD. 1335 days; 696 AD + 1315,9 = 2011,9 AD.

Please tell me why those profetic days could NOT be understood as following AFTER the abomination.
Thank you in advance for your trouble!
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 05:21:30 PM by Even »

yonah33

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Re: 4 - 1290 DAYS
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2010, 04:59:22 AM »
Numerical calculations are a subject I find myself paying a lot of attention to. The number 153 for example in John 21:11. And when there are close matches it strikes me like where there's smoke, there's fire. Was pushing around the 1290 days and came up with something, which at least to me is interesting and that may have some kind of tie-in that we're not aware of. Namely, from 12:30pm on Nov 22, 1963 in Dealy Plaza in Dallas, which would have been close to sundown and the beginning of the next day in Israel - until the end of the Six Day War - I come up with 1291 days that includes a leap year. Just thought I'd mention it.

Peter

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Re: 4 - 1290 DAYS
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2010, 05:10:02 AM »
I'm grateful for your work being offered us at no cost on the internet - thanks a lot!

Hello Even and welcome to the forum! :)

Mr. Skolfield is who offers his 30 year study for free. If you are ever so moved, he does accept donations. Indeed that is all his ministry survives on. Lots more free stuff there too.
http://www.ellisskolfield.net/essays
and here
http://www.ellisskolfield.net/

But I have a question about Daniel 12;11, that I can not find any certain answer to. When I just read the vers without thinking about any interpretations, it seem to me that the removal of the daily sacrifice AND the abomination that make desolate is happening at the same time - the first as a consequence of the latter. And the 1290/1335 days period is FROM the abomination and forward unto our lifetime now. Examples; Year 696 AD + 1271,5 = 1967,5 AD. 1335 days; 696 AD + 1315,9 = 2011,9 AD.

Please tell me why those profetic days could NOT be understood as following AFTER the abomination.
Thank you in advance for your trouble!

I highly recommend reading the whole book on through before asking any questions as it is a brick by brick empirical argument, and if you are not accustomed to viewing New Testament prophecy in the traditional continuous-historic context, it will take a little while to get used to.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=14.0

For online reading it might be a little easier here
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/contents_tfp.htm

Regarding the abomination of desolation it is important to first understand what gets desolated.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=553.0

Also some personal views from the Olivet Discourse
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#abomination_of_desolation

Even

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Re: 4 - 1290 DAYS
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2010, 06:53:45 AM »
I have been reading the whole book and mostly everything found at your site, and I don't question the Dome of the Rock beeing the "abomination of desolation" or the significance of the year 1967. But I understand the construction time of the Dome hav a 20 year gap (685 - 705 AD).
It's fine to me that you found a match for the 1290 days (583 BC - 688 AD), but what if this time period can be understood as following after the abomination? The verse does NOT say "from sacrifices being removed UNTO abomination of desolation..", it says "from sacrifices being removed AND the abomination of desolation..".
Being aware of your definition, I'm asking you to CONCIDER an alternative or additional way to understand this passage. Thanks.

Peter

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Re: 4 - 1290 DAYS
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2010, 07:34:55 AM »
I have been reading the whole book and mostly everything found at your site, and I don't question the Dome of the Rock beeing the "abomination of desolation" or the significance of the year 1967. But I understand the construction time of the Dome hav a 20 year gap (685 - 705 AD).

Not sure what you mean by "gap". The period you detail is roughly how long it took to build, from start to finish.
While not definitive, if you Google - dome of the rock 685 - and then substitute 688, you will find both are equally supportable dates for the founding of the Dome of the Rock. I choose the latter year because it is confirmed by John's 1260 "days" and 42 "months" of Revelation.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=543.0

It's fine to me that you found a match for the 1290 days (583 BC - 688 AD), ......

Which is confirmed by the the same author's (Daniel) 1335 "days".
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=557.0

..... but what if this time period can be understood as following after the abomination?

How long did it take Jerusalem to be desolated by Islam, I believe symbolized by the Dome of the Rock?

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#abomination_of_desolation

In "A History of the Jews" Paul Johnson writes on page 321:  "Between 1827 and 1839, largely through British efforts, the population of Jerusalem rose from 550 to 5,500 and in all Palestine it topped 10,000 - the real beginning of the Jewish return to the Promised Land. In 1838 Palmerston appointed the first western vice-consul in Jerusalem, W.T. Young, and told him 'to afford protection to the Jews generally'."
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/abomination_of_desolation.htm


Peter

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Re: 4 - 1290 DAYS
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2010, 10:35:44 AM »
The verse does NOT say "from sacrifices being removed UNTO abomination of desolation..", it says "from sacrifices being removed AND the abomination of desolation..".
Being aware of your definition, I'm asking you to CONCIDER an alternative or additional way to understand this passage. Thanks.

Perhaps I missed it but I don't see where you have presented a more viable alternative for us to consider as yet.
I understand the Dome of the Rock to be the symbol representing the Islamic desolation of Jerusalem.

And the 1290/1335 days period is FROM the abomination and forward unto our lifetime now. Examples; Year 696 AD + 1271,5 = 1967,5 AD. 1335 days; 696 AD + 1315,9 = 2011,9 AD.

In the above quoted you seem to be jumbling up Daniel and John's prophecies, and applying a random and unsupportable date for the founding, or finishing, of the Dome of the Rock. 696 would have simply been an arbitrary date during the construction of it.
Please don't take this the wrong way, because I don't intend to convey any pretense of authority. Indeed you can read every suggestion I include in this forum as if it were prefaced by "It is my understanding that...." or "I believe..."
Perhaps you are seeking an outcome based solution, in an effort to make a date fit with a pre-conceived notion that you have, about the future and the year 2011.

Being aware of your definition, I'm asking you to CONCIDER an alternative or additional way to understand this passage. Thanks.

I am willing to consider any alternative that you can make a sound case for. You can start by explaining why you chose the year 696 AD for the Dome of the Rock.

Even

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Re: 4 - 1290 DAYS
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2010, 11:47:30 AM »
I admit I don't have any good arguments or solutions to my problem, I'm just troubled because of the way Dan.12,11 is worded.

If the desolation started in 688 AD, then what time the desolation will end? When they resume temple service OR when Jesus come back (future)?

Can we be sure that all of Daniel prophecies are allready history - nothing left to be fullfilled?

Peter

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Re: 4 - 1290 DAYS
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2010, 12:04:26 PM »
I admit I don't have any good arguments or solutions to my problem, I'm just troubled because of the way Dan.12,11 is worded.

If the desolation started in 688 AD, ......

Jerusalem was desolated on many occasions. Like in 70 AD when it was sacked and a million and a half Jews were killed, and again in 132 AD in the Bar Kokhba revolt when another 750,000 Jews were slaughtered.

I consider the Dome of the Rock as a symbol of the Islamic desolation. It was actually 639 when the Islamic Caliph first entered the city.

....... then what time the desolation will end?

The quote that I included regarding there only being 550 Jews in the early 1800s, and the beginning of their restoration a couple of decades later, likely puts the bottom in the extent of desolation. The technical end of the "times of the Gentiles" in Jerusalem ended in 1967, with their official restoration beginning in 1948.

When they resume temple service .....

While some Jews have an ambition to rebuild their temple, I don't believe there is any scriptural reason to believe the Lord would allow it. There would be no need for it since Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is a completed work.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=103.0

Men built a temple to Jupiter on the temple mount too. Just because men have an ambition to do something doesn't mean it is of the Lord.

..... OR when Jesus come back (future)?

Can we be sure that all of Daniel prophecies are allready history - nothing left to be fullfilled?

When we are discussing the figurative language of dreams and visions in prophecy it is hard to say one is "sure" of anything. However, for all of the integrated math problems revealed in The False Prophet to be some sort of "accident" would be a pretty hard to swallow as well.


Peter

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Re: 4 - 1290 DAYS
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2010, 12:13:41 PM »
Look at this wonderful fulfillment of prophecy. Even as late in the century as 1867 Mark Twain described it thus:  â€œ
...[a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds-a silent mournful expanse....A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action....We never saw a human being on the whole route....There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.”


Ezekiel 36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden;





and the waste and desolate and ruined cities [are become] fenced,



[and] are inhabited.


Mike S

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Re: 4 - 1290 DAYS
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2010, 05:20:54 PM »
I have been reading the whole book and mostly everything found at your site, and I don't question the Dome of the Rock being the "abomination of desolation" or the significance of the year 1967. But I understand the construction time of the Dome hav a 20 year gap (685 - 705 AD).
It's fine to me that you found a match for the 1290 days (583 BC - 688 AD), but what if this time period can be understood as following after the abomination? The verse does NOT say "from sacrifices being removed UNTO abomination of desolation..", it says "from sacrifices being removed AND the abomination of desolation..".
Being aware of your definition, I'm asking you to CONCIDER an alternative or additional way to understand this passage. Thanks.

Hi Evan - A belated welcome to the forum, which I don't frequent very often.
I would like to clarify some of the dates and years for you. The twenty years was the time it took for all of the Islamic construction to be completed. In addition to the Dome of the Rock was the al-Aqsa Mosque, as well as some smaller structures, including the Dome of the Tablets.
According to Microsoft Encarta, the construction on the Dome of the Rock itself began in 685 AD, and ended in 691 AD, a 6 year period. The calculation result of 688 AD is the midpoint year of the construction. If you are gonna assign a single year to an event that is spread over several years, choosing the midpoint makes as much sense as either the beginning or the end.

In regard to your question about an alternative meaning,  In every prophecy involving an amount of time in Dan. and Rev. , a beginning point (usually some event) and an endpoint event are given. If we take the phrasing "...and the abomination..." to mean that the abomination is at the beginning of the time period, then what is he prophesying? Nothing but a lot of time, which makes no sense. Your question seems to be a problem of semantics more than anything else. 1290 years from 688 AD would be 1978 without factoring the Hebrew calendar in, or 1959 with the factoring. To my knowledge there was no significant Middle Eastern event in either of those years.


ExMilitary

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Re: 4 - 1290 DAYS
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2013, 02:37:51 PM »
I've been looking at Daniel 7, and struggling with the fact that Skolfield uses 360/365.24 day calculations for some of the Daniel prophecies (70 weeks, 1290 days, 1335 days), but not others (time, times, 1/2 time - Dan 7 and 12).

Here is the conclusion I've come to: The prophecies still fit the 688/705, 1948/1967 time lines without having to go through the machinations of calendar conversion.  Jesus identifies (in Matthew 24:15) that #1, the abomination that causes desolation had not yet occurred (circa AD 30?), and that #2, it would be standing in the “holy place”.  It would seem that, certainly, the inscriptions on the Dome of the Rock that deny that Jesus was the only begotten, could be considered a monument to the ultimate desolation (a monument to sheer hopelessness... calling God a liar).

BUT, shortly after the Dome of the Rock was completed, the Al Aqsa mosque was built circa 704/705 AD, and if

(Here's where my thoughts venture into theory)

the temple was actually located on the southern part of the temple mount (http://www.templemount.org/theories.html), then the Al Aqsa mosque could be standing, literally, in the holy place.

Now, why would we need the Al Aqsa mosque to understand that the denial of Jesus contained within the inscriptions on the Dome of the Rock are the abomination that causes desolation?  Because this is the great end-time delusion sent by God (if it were possible to deceive even the elect).  The mosque is that thing that allows us to SEE (not only with our spiritual eyes, but also our physical eyes) that, despite the Quran's attempts to downplay their denial of Jesus by lifting up his 'prophetness', despite the world's trying to convince us that Islam actually respects Jesus, the thing standing in the holy place forces us to acknowledge that Islam is a lie.  Because, just as Jesus predicted, there it stands, confirming that the thing across the way that denies him

(end of theory)

(dome of the rock) is a lie from Satan.

Subtracting 1290 (without conversion) from the year the mosque was built yields the same date that the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by Babylon, which, if you search the 'chabad' website, you will see is the GAD that the daily sacrifices were interrupted (taken away).

In fact, if you continue to utilize the 1290 calculation in straight-forward fashion, you can see that the process of first deportation of Judah into Babylon completed (see Dan 1) 1290 years before the building of the Dome of the rock.  And, just as the first siege of Jerusalem and carrying away of temple items was a foreshadowing (a messenger if you will) to the taking away of the daily sacrifice, so the Dome of the Rock served as a messenger to confirm the future abomination.

I've seen an alternate interpretation of the 1335 years that doesn't require us to pin it to the battle of Tours that I believe could just as well serve (in even better fashion) fulfillment of end-time events.

I don't think it is necessary to move the pin date forward past the destruction of the temple because Daniel's prophecy didn't mandate that all sacrifices had to be completely undone (to Skolfield's argument that sacrifices were continuing after the temple destruction), but just that the daily sacrifices had to be taken away.

I guess what this boils down to, though, is probably a matter of preference (as long as the conclusion doesn't derail from the main point).  Although I find scriptural support for a 360 day prophetic calendar, I can't find any scriptural support for the need to do any conversions... and any argument to do so (that I've seen thus far) do not originate with scripture... especially when it is unnecessary to arrive at nearly the same conclusion.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 03:12:13 PM by ExMilitary »

PeteWaldo

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Re: 4 - 1290 DAYS
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2013, 05:24:01 AM »
I've been looking at Daniel 7, and struggling with the fact that Skolfield uses 360/365.24 day calculations for some of the Daniel prophecies (70 weeks, 1290 days, 1335 days), but not others (time, times, 1/2 time - Dan 7 and 12).

No need to struggle, and to be honest, I think you are wasting your time over-thinking all of this. Since a 'time" is wasn't defined in the Old Testament as those Rabbis confirmed, it may offer us license to use the Julian calendar since a "time" is only defined in the New Testament. Then when we investigate the use of that (effectively solar) calendar we find the math works out perfectly. You could see how befuddled those Rabbis were. Unlike most Christian futurists or preterists that immediately lash out without an explanation, however Jews are generally different than that, as the one Rabbi even indicated in the course of the chat by facetiously feigning amazement that two Rabbis could agree on something. Neither faulted the math or the dating of the third year of Cyrus or first year of Belshazzar. If I had rubbed their nose in it they would have probably started resisting more, but my effort was to just plant the seeds, hoping their not having suffered an unpleasant experience by being assaulted by it, might more likely posit it with their fellow Rabbis over tea or something.

Here is the conclusion I've come to: The prophecies still fit the 688/705, 1948/1967 time lines without having to go through the machinations of calendar conversion.  Jesus identifies (in Matthew 24:15) that #1, the abomination that causes desolation had not yet occurred (circa AD 30?), and that #2, it would be standing in the “holy place”.  It would seem that, certainly, the inscriptions on the Dome of the Rock that deny that Jesus was the only begotten, could be considered a monument to the ultimate desolation (a monument to sheer hopelessness... calling God a liar).

BUT, shortly after the Dome of the Rock was completed, the Al Aqsa mosque was built circa 704/705 AD, and if

(Here's where my thoughts venture into theory)

the temple was actually located on the southern part of the temple mount (http://www.templemount.org/theories.html), then the Al Aqsa mosque could be standing, literally, in the holy place.

The archaeological evidence suggests the Eastern Gate lines up with the Dome of the Spirits (or tablets).



http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#court_without

http://www.ellisskolfield.net/essays
Page 44 Islam in the End Times
Drawing Courtesy of Biblical Archeology Review
"This drawing of the Temple Mount shows the Islamic Dome of the Rock to be some 330 feet south of the site of the Solomonic temple. Notice that the temple faces East, directly in line with the Golden Gate. The flat bed rock, now under the little Dome of the Tablets, was part of the floor of the Kodesh ha-Kodashim, or Holy of Holies (Asher S. Kaufman, Biblical Archeology Review, March, 1983). Dr. Kaufman’s discovering that the Solomonic temple was located here strikes a death blow to futurist interpretations of Revelation."

Page 66 Islam In The End Times
"The true Gate Beautiful through which Jesus entered the city was
located here. The first and second temples were located directly to the
West of this gate, in line with the little cupola aptly named “The Dome
of the Tablets.” For documentation see: Asher S. Kaufman, (Where the
Ancient Temple of Jerusalem Stood, Biblical Archeology Review, Vol. IX,
No.9, March, 1983, pp 40-59). The Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of
Holies rested on the bedrock to which the arrow points. The gate in this
picture was built by Islam not Israel. Israel’s original gate, buried by
Arab graves and centuries of debris, is directly under this gate."

Now, why would we need the Al Aqsa mosque to understand that the denial of Jesus contained within the inscriptions on the Dome of the Rock are the abomination that causes desolation?

We don't. The DoR does just fine all on its own.

Because this is the great end-time delusion sent by God (if it were possible to deceive even the elect).

Al Aqsa is just another mosque (though considered Islam's 3rd most "holy" site). The building that most represents Islam is the black stone idol-housing kaaba in Mecca that Muslims are commanded to prostrate themselves toward five times a day, and travel to and circumambulate, as the Arabian pagan moon, sun star and jinn-devil worshipers did.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm

I just jumped to a conclusion while on this subject and investigated the "dressing" on the kaaba to see if there were words in the design and found that "Two-thirds of the way up is a band of gold-embroidered Quranic text, including the Shahada, the Islamic declaration of faith."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

The Islamic profession of faith in Muhammad and his alter-ego Allah, which of course is more blasphemy against the God of the scriptures and Jesus Christ. In its simplest form:
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله (lā ʾilāha ʾillā l-Lāh, Muḥammadun rasūlu l-Lāh) (in Arabic)
"There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the messenger of Allah."
Thus praying in two names of blasphemy while declaring a false prophet to be true. (though one could say he was a true prophet of "Allah" aka Satan!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahada



Indeed the ONLY CLAIM the anti-religion of Islam has to any part of the Holy Land is the rock inside the Dome of the Rock, and then only because Muhammad claimed he rode on a flying donkey-mule one night from Mecca, to Jerusalem, up to "paradise" and back to Mecca by morning. The rock in the Dome of the Rock is supposed to be where he launched off from for his leg up to the "paradise" of his overactive imagination.
http://www.petewaldo.com/mohammeds_night_journey.htm

There is some evidence that suggests that the whole cock & bull story was contrived to cover adultery, when Muhammad was caught walking out of a woman's house one morning, with whom he was having an affair.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.msg13967#msg13967

While Aisha claimed he was with her all night.

The mosque is that thing that allows us to SEE (not only with our spiritual eyes, but also our physical eyes) that, despite the Quran's attempts to downplay their denial of Jesus by lifting up his 'prophetness', despite the world's trying to convince us that Islam actually respects Jesus, the thing standing in the holy place forces us to acknowledge that Islam is a lie.

The mosaic on the Dome of the Rock accomplishes that just fine. We can quite literally "SEE" the blasphemy here:



As you yourself quoted from that mosaic.
What is written on the Al Aqsa mosque?

Because, just as Jesus predicted, there it stands, confirming that the thing across the way that denies him

(end of theory)

(dome of the rock) is a lie from Satan.

It stands as the perfect testament to that without any help. We don't need the Al Aqsa to "see" anything.

Subtracting 1290 (without conversion) from the year the mosque was built yields the same date that the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by Babylon, which, if you search the 'chabad' website, you will see is the GAD that the daily sacrifices were interrupted (taken away).

In fact, if you continue to utilize the 1290 calculation in straight-forward fashion, you can see that the process of first deportation of Judah into Babylon completed (see Dan 1) 1290 years before the building of the Dome of the rock.  And, just as the first siege of Jerusalem and carrying away of temple items was a foreshadowing (a messenger if you will) to the taking away of the daily sacrifice, so the Dome of the Rock served as a messenger to confirm the future abomination.

I've seen an alternate interpretation of the 1335 years that doesn't require us to pin it to the battle of Tours that I believe could just as well serve (in even better fashion) fulfillment of end-time events.

I don't think it is necessary to move the pin date forward past the destruction of the temple because Daniel's prophecy didn't mandate that all sacrifices had to be completely undone (to Skolfield's argument that sacrifices were continuing after the temple destruction), but just that the daily sacrifices had to be taken away.

I guess what this boils down to, though, is probably a matter of preference (as long as the conclusion doesn't derail from the main point).  Although I find scriptural support for a 360 day prophetic calendar, I can't find any scriptural support for the need to do any conversions....and any argument to do so (that I've seen thus far) do not originate with scripture... especially when it is unnecessary to arrive at nearly the same conclusion.

If you find scriptural support for a 30 day calendar then you need to do conversion because both the Hebrew calendars and the Julian calendar were effectively solar calendars. The few different Hebrew calendars, adding time periodically to catch up, and the Julian calendar being close enough to not need to. On a literal 30 day calendar winter would have changed with summer about every 35 years.
This isn't a unique calculation. If you think it's unique to Ellis Google - 30 day prophetic calendar
It's how at least a large plurality of Christians calculate 69 of Daniel's 70 weeks.

Item 3.3 in "DANIEL'S MESSIAH IN THE CRITIC'S DEN" (ya wanna get technical this guy really is!)
http://theism.net/article/17
(This was the first article I ever ran into the day-year language of prophecy and Daniel's 69 weeks as understood by so much of the church which I found quite exciting. Mathematical proof of God. Weeks later someone directed me to Ellis' website.)

ExMilitary

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Re: 4 - 1290 DAYS
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2013, 03:04:12 PM »
If you find scriptural support for a 30 day calendar then you need to do conversion because both the Hebrew calendars and the Julian calendar were effectively solar calendars. The few different Hebrew calendars, adding time periodically to catch up, and the Julian calendar being close enough to not need to. On a literal 30 day calendar winter would have changed with summer about every 35 years.
This isn't a unique calculation.

No, I know isn't unique to Ellis (I've even heard TV/radio preachers use the same 360 day concept to justify the 7-year tribulation view).  What I am saying is that there doesn't seem to be any good scriptural support as to when to use a 360 day prophetic calendar versus a 365.24 day solar calendar.  In fact, where the 360 day calendar seems to have the most straight forward scriptural support (Revelation in my opinion), that is the one place it is not used.

The main point of my original (overly verbalized) post: Straight forward calculations work just as well as 360/365.24 day conversions to come to the same conclusions regarding the identity of the abomination that makes desolate, THE false prophet, the beast, and the image thereof.

The exciting part (for me, anyway) is that I am now fully convinced.

PeteWaldo

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Re: 4 - 1290 DAYS
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2013, 05:39:53 AM »
If you find scriptural support for a 30 day calendar then you need to do conversion because both the Hebrew calendars and the Julian calendar were effectively solar calendars. The few different Hebrew calendars, adding time periodically to catch up, and the Julian calendar being close enough to not need to. On a literal 30 day calendar winter would have changed with summer about every 35 years.
This isn't a unique calculation.

No, I know isn't unique to Ellis (I've even heard TV/radio preachers use the same 360 day concept to justify the 7-year tribulation view).  What I am saying is that there doesn't seem to be any good scriptural support as to when to use a 360 day prophetic calendar versus a 365.24 day solar calendar.

That's a matter of hermeneutics, and considering the author. For Old Testament authors you use the 360 day prophetic calendar and for New Testament authors you use the Julian calendar of their day. The exception being the "times" problems because the term is defined in the New Testament.

In fact, where the 360 day calendar seems to have the most straight forward scriptural support (Revelation in my opinion), that is the one place it is not used.

The main point of my original (overly verbalized)
As you may have noticed I tend to do that to! :)
post: Straight forward calculations work just as well as 360/365.24 day conversions to come to the same conclusions regarding the identity of the abomination that makes desolate, THE false prophet, the beast, and the image thereof.

The exciting part (for me, anyway) is that I am now fully convinced.

The most convincing part for me is the entire approach to prophecy. Taking a UNIFORM approach to ALL bible prophecy. The historicist approach through which ALL Jews and Christians understand Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled, and the church for the first 1800 years understood New Testament prophecy was fulfilled. It is futurists and preterists - a near unanimity of the church - that strayed off the reservation through t;hose Roman Jesuit counter-reformation eschatologies, beginning in the 19th century. While they like to pick and choose between ECFs that suggested their doctrines it is Jesuit Luis Alcazar's preterism that the Roman Catholic Church used in arguments against the reformers, and any honest futurist will agree that it is John Nelson Darby that cooked up the scheme the futurists hold.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm

We are well supported by those great men of God of the Reformation, who would have likely drawn the same conclusions that Skolfield did, were they here today.