What is the abomination of desolation? - Q&A

[PeteWaldo]

Q What is the abomination of desolation?
__________________________________________

A Paul tells us what it is going to be in this passage:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

When the AntiChrist goes into the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and declares himself to be god and demands that everyone worship him. This also is the event that undeniably reveals who the AntiChrist is unequivocally. Any speculation prior to this about his identity is just that, speculation.

[PeteWaldo]

I was indoctrinated into John Darby’s mid-19th century futurist eschatology as well. Indeed the 19th century went pretty hard on the “church”. But what if that pop-doctrine effectively blinded Christians from recognizing that there are 1.5 billion antichrists in the world today, just in Muhammad’s specifically counter-Gospel anti-religion, without even counting atheists and other antichrists? You will find no shortage of Christians defending the religion of Islam even within the bounds of this forum’s Q&A. But consider how the false prophet is revealed.

Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

1 John 2:22 ..... He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.....

Also, could believing “that man of sin” to be about some future someday, preclude us from looking for him in the actual temple of God that Jesus built in three days? Where is the temple of God?

Pete Waldo's answer to Where is the temple of God?

https://youtu.be/eBpw2oQrvMM

[PeteWaldo]

I was not indoctrinated. I came to this knowledge by reading the Bible. It is pretty clear. Yes, there were, are, and will be many antiChrists. However, there will only be one AntiChrist. He will be the culmination and complete fulfillment of this prophecy. The ones you are talking about are operating in the spirit of antiChrist, but are not THE AntiChrist.

[PeteWaldo]

So then you were never even introduced to Darby’s futurist doctrine, before you discovered on your own the very same inverted pyramid of pile-on presumptions and leaps it contains from Daniel to Revelation? Are you expecting a revived Roman Empire even as we watch Europe fall to Islam?

“However, there will only be one AntiChrist.”

While some pop doctrine-driven bible versions do, the KJV doesn’t selectively capitalize it, because it shouldn’t be.

ANTICHRIST

I think this is how the church in part got blinded to Islam and THE false prophet, as it wandered away from the 1800 year church tradition of historicism, of those great men of God of the Reformation.

TRADITIONAL HISTORICISM

May the good Lord bless you and lead us all in all truth.

[PeteWaldo]

So, are you saying that all the prophetic parts of the New Testament were completed in 70 A.D.?

[PeteWaldo]

Not at all Peter, though those that hold preterist eschatology do believe they were. The eschatology I ascribe to is within the traditional historicist approach, of the first 1800 years of the church, including those great men of God of the Reformation. The 19th century popularized eschatologies of preterism and futurism necessarily place 1900 years of Christian era history off limits when considering prophecies of Revelation after chapter 3. Let alone that each group must consider the other to be virtually 100% in error in regard to their understanding of Revelation after chapter 3, because a gulf of 1900 years separates the two views. Isn’t that amazing? Consider what a few of the Reformers had to say about Revelation chapter 9

Of Revelation chapter 9: John Foxe who authored Foxe’s Book of Martyrs wrote that it is “clearer than light itself” as being a prophecy of the Muslim conquests.

Albert Barnes: “With surprising unanimity, commentators have agreed in regarding this to the empire of the Saracens (Muslims), or to the rise and the progress of the religion and the empire set up by Muhammed.”

W.B. Godbey: “This chapter is a thrilling description of the rise and progress of the Mohammedan wars.”

Of the locusts of Revelation 9: Adam Clarke: “certainly agrees better with the Saracens than with any other people or nation” and “agrees very well with the troops of Mohammed.”

Matthew Henry: “the armies of the Mohamedan empire.”

John Wesley: “All this agrees with the slaughter which the Saracens made for a long time after Mahomet’s death.”

Isn’t that surprising, in light of what the church teaches today?

If you want to see one study of New Testament Bible prophecy within this traditional continuous historic context, that is free and entertaining to read, please visit the following to “The False Prophet” by Ellis Skolfield. Here’s a link to chapter 1.

1 - THE GREAT DETECTIVE

[PeteWaldo]

Ok, so let me see if I get this right. You are saying that all the New Testament prophetic passages, to include The Revelation, all are talking about the Muslims and their attempted conquest. Is that what you are telling me? If so, does that mean that all the prophetic passages have been fulfilled? If so, when? I am really curious to hear what you have to say on this because I have never heard of this.

[PeteWaldo]

No, the New Testament contains too much prophecy for it all to be about Islam. But John told us the verses regarding antichrist began to be fulfilled in his day during the first century in which there were many antichrists. There are 1.5 billion in the world today in Islam alone. The false prophet Muhammad fulfilled his role in the 6th century and his Islamic kingdom beast antichrist followers ever since. All of the prophetic passages have not been fulfilled or I think you might agree we wouldn’t be here to have this exchange.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

By “elements” is meant elemental principles.

But what if rather than think Bible prophecy is about New York City we instead look at it as being about God’s people and the Middle East, the way strong’s suggests, and in light of John’s assignment.

whole world New Testament Greek Definition: 3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay}

1) the inhabited earth

1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians

1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire

John was assigned to Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

By 500 years later Christianity had spread throughout John’s whole “world”.



So let’s consider the false prophet Muhammad’s Islamic kingdom beast in conjunction with Daniel’s kingdom beasts as we look through the prophet John’s eyes and what HE had seen, and what are being the Roman Empire of his day, and those things after him.

Well it’s a historical matter of fact that the Roman Empire was conquered by the Islamic First Jihad. See

THE BEAST

and now John’s 8 kingdom “beasts

JOHN'S EIGHT BEASTS

Let’s look at this verse based on the above.

Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast {Islam - Muslim}, or the number {666} of his name.

OR the name of the beast. What does John’s virtually 100% Islamic “world” look like today?

Except for that tiny little strip of land where folks are protected by the democracy of the Israeli Jewish state, John’s whole world already carries the name of the false prophet Muhammad’s Islamic kingdom “beast” - Islam! Could this be a fulfilled prophecy? What do you suppose those great men of the Reformation I quoted earlier would think if they were here today?

This may well be setting up the greatest tragedy in the history of mankind yet the church doesn’t even seem able to see the urgency.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

[PeteWaldo]

Here is where you go off into error:

Considering John's assignment we can see that the 6th king or the one that "is" in power as John wrote, was the Roman Empire. Just as John prophesied the Roman Empire was conquered by the 7th beast that had "not yet come" (by the Islamic First Jihad).

It is absolutely correct to identify the 6th as Rome here, but Rome was NOT conquered by a Muslim jihad.

In 476 C.E. Romulus, the last of the Roman emperors in the west, was overthrown by the Germanic leader Odoacer, who became the first Barbarian to rule in Rome. The order that the Roman Empire had brought to western Europe for 1000 years was no more.

The Fall of the Roman Empire [ushistory.org]

Most historians [1] believe that Islam originated in Mecca and Medinaat the start of the 7th century CE, approximately 600 years after the founding of Christianity

and

In 610 CE, the Islamic Prophet Muhammad began receiving what Muslims consider to be divine revelations.

History of Islam - Wikipedia

So, it is a well known fact that Rome fell hundreds of years BEFORE Islam even started. This totally negates one of the central points of this view of eschatology. I am certain that there are other points that can be easily negated, but I am not going to take the time to look for them. Either you will see the gross and obvious error in this eschatological view, or you won’t. The idea that the word “elements” in 2 Peter 3:10 means something other than the physical elements is unfounded in Scripture. Bottom line, it makes no sense with any other plain reading of the passage, especially when the verse is read in context and when you know and compare it with the various co-textual passages that speak on this. I have come across plenty of different views of this and other Scriptural views here on Quora. I must say that this one is one of the more extreme examples of being way off the mark, which makes it dangerous. I have to wonder what those that adhere to this view get wrong in other places in Scripture. This is brushing up against, and maybe even crosses the line, for a Salvation issue.

[PeteWaldo]

“This totally negates one of the central points of this view of eschatology.” (as a “salvation issue”?)

Not at all. Since when is Italy geographically not a part of the Roman empire, which had a long succession of rulers?

However the specifically counter-Gospel, antichrist, anti-religion founded by THE false prophet Muhammad arose out of the SW Arabian desert.

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus ….. but they killed him not, nor crucified him, ….. for of a surety they killed him not:-

Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

1 John 2:22 ..... He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.....

NOT a part of the Roman Empire. Which, with a couple hundred year interruption in the middle (still in the presence of Muhammad’s Islamic kingdom “beast”), has ruled John’s world for 1400 years (except for that tiny portion that the Jews were restored to, that protects a non-Muslim remnant through the democracy of the Israeli Jewish state). Perhaps you can see it more clearly graphically.



Islamic First Jihad



Islamic Second Jihad



Yet when futurists exegete John’s 8 beasts they dump the whole definition of “beast” as kingdoms - midstream - to define a beast as a man instead.

Your unchristian last couple of sentences are not surprising from a futurist, who may even perhaps hold it is also a “salvation issue” for him not to believe Margaret McDonald’s dream of being magically whisked away before a “great tribulation” that is reserved for some future someday. Thereby trivializing the suffering that our brothers and sisters in John’s “world” have been subject to, through some of the most horrific persecution in history, resulting in their having been virtually wiped out by today as that map shows.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

“A spokesperson for Christian Aid said, 'In front of the team leader and relatives in the crowd, the Islamic extremists cut off the fingertips of the boy and severely beat him, telling his father they would stop the torture only if he, the father, returned to Islam. When the team leader refused, relatives said, the ISIS militants also tortured and beat him and the two other ministry workers. The three men and the boy then met their deaths in crucifixion.' Eight other aid workers were separately executed for refusing to denounce their faith. In front of a crowd that was summoned to watch, two of the workers, women aged 29 and 33, were raped before all eight were beheaded."

From the Hoover Institute: "Few people realize that we are today living through the largest persecution of Christians in history, worse even than the famous attacks under ancient Roman emperors like Diocletian and Nero. Estimates of the numbers of Christians under assault range from 100-200 million." "And most of this persecution is taking place at the hands of Muslims. Of the top fifty countries persecuting Christians, forty-two have either a Muslim majority or have sizable Muslim populations."

MUSLIM PERSECUTION OF CHRISTIANS

Who may also believe “that man of sin” is about some future boogeyman of tomorrow, when through open eyes we can otherwise readily see his works right there in the temple of God today.

Who may believe “The Antichrist” is an individual also reserved for the future, the result of which is demonstrated by the “church” all over the Internet and in this forum defending the specifically counter-Gospel abomination of Islam as an “Abrahamic” religion, because futurist eschatology blinds them to the fact that there are 1.5 billion antichrists in Islam alone - as an article of their faith in THE false prophet Muhammad alone.

But who “crosses the line” when it comes to NON-figurative passages that ARE NOT open to interpretation, starting with (the blasphemy of?) suggestion there will be a renewal of the old covenant, when the scriptures tell us it waxeth away? Or believing a future temple could ever be sanctified - in order to be desolated - when Jesus is the ONE sacrifice for sin forever. Particularly when the scriptures tell us exactly where the temple of God is and where God will dwell forever. Let alone that God doesn’t dwell in temples made with hands.

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

The true tabernacle that the Lord built without hands.

Pete Waldo's answer to Where is the temple of God?

Rev 1:9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I am my brother John’s companion in “THE tribulation” (confirm the article with your G/E interlinear). A period of “great tribulation’ perhaps describing the 20th to 21st century with tens of millions killed, including in the holocaust. The 20th century considered the bloodiest and most destructive in history.

The kingdom of Jesus Christ is, and will remain, specifically not of this world:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

James Grant wrote: "With the deadly heresies entertained and taught by the Plymouth Brethren, in relation to some of the most momentous of all the doctrines of the gospel, and to which I have adverted at some length, I feel assured that my readers will not be surprised at any other views, however unscriptual and pernicious they may be, which the Darbyites have embraced and zealously seek to propagate"[16]

Why would futurists, who otherwise seem to love Jews, desire to:

1. Exclude Jews from the new covenant?

2. Cheer on a restoration of the old covenant that waxed away?

3. Suggest that Jesus' one sacrifice for sins forever was somehow so insufficient, incomplete and unfinished, that a resumption of animal sacrifices in the future would be appropriate or sanctified for any reason?

4. Take salvation through the Gospel away from Jews when it was specifically given to the Jew first?

5. Denigrate the temple that Jesus built in three days, by cheering on a future physical temple, made with hands?

6. Believe that God would dwell in a temple made with hands?

7. Believe such a temple could ever be consecrated, to then be desolated, when our high priest is seated in the true tabernacle that the Lord pitched, and rules in His kingdom today?

8. Reject the kingdom of Jesus Christ that arrived in the first century, to cheer on some future carnal kingdom of the flesh on earth, when Jesus told us His kingdom is specifically not of this world and is within us?

Could the answer to all those questions boil down to: John Nelson Darby's 19th century interpretation of the figurative language of Daniel's Old Testament prophetic dream?

Sound doctrine must obviously begin with literal verses in literal passages that are not open to interpretation, before even beginning to try to interpret, the figurative language of dreams and visions in prophecy.

Scofield’s reference bible of Darby’s futurism even says “The duration of the "time of the end" is three and one half years, coinciding with the last half of the seventieth week of Daniel. Daniel 7:25; 12:7; Revelation 13:5."

So by Scofield’s own indirect admission Darby couldn’t have possibly understood the book of Daniel, because God assured us it was sealed until the “time of the end”, which for futurists hasn’t begun yet!

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Compare that with the precision of Daniel’s prophecies through two parallel problems that span 2500 years, and pin the dates of 1948 and 1967 right to the year, in mathematical and textual perfection.

MATHEMATICAL PRECISION OF PROPHECY

So who’s understanding of the LITERAL passages that ARE NOT open to interpretation above, “maybe even crosses the line, for a Salvation issue”?

Do you know where your futurist eschatology came from?

AN END TIME MYTH

FUTURISM AND DISPENSATIONALISM

[PeteWaldo]

Explain this passage please and when this happened:

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

You also, without any firsthand knowledge of just what my beliefs are try to paint me with the brush of your choosing by accusing me of 8 different things.

1. Exclude Jews from the new covenant?

2. Cheer on a restoration of the old covenant that waxed away?

3. Suggest that Jesus' one sacrifice for sins forever was somehow so insufficient, incomplete and unfinished, that a resumption of animal sacrifices in the future would be appropriate or sanctified for any reason?

4. Take salvation through the Gospel away from Jews when it was specifically given to the Jew first?

5. Denigrate the temple that Jesus built in three days, by cheering on a future physical temple, made with hands?

6. Believe that God would dwell in a temple made with hands?

7. Believe such a temple could ever be consecrated, to then be desolated, when our high priest is seated in the true tabernacle that the Lord pitched, and rules in His kingdom today?

8. Reject the kingdom of Jesus Christ that arrived in the first century, to cheer on some future carnal kingdom of the flesh on earth, when Jesus told us His kingdom is specifically not of this world and is within us?

You are so wrong in what Scripture has taught me, and so many others, that are NOT anything like these 8 points. You just assume that is what I believe, but you assume wrongly. You try to throw out a lot of information that you think support your twisted eschatology, but in reality it doesn’t. That is so reminiscent of the old saying “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance then baffle them with manure.” Well, all that junk you throw out there is not brilliance, so that leaves just one other option. You are treading, Scripturally and Spiritually, on very unstable ground. You are trying to force Scripture to fit your world view. That is not the correct way to do it. We are to first have a true understanding of Scripture and then see how what has happened and is happening in the world fits, or doesn’t. Yours doesn’t fit Scripturally. I will even say that it is leading you into gross error.

[PeteWaldo]

You jump from one thing to the next, while ignoring my replies that answer to your accusations.

“You also, without any firsthand knowledge of just what my beliefs are….”

Specifically not wanting to draw any conclusions is why I couched the post by describing not your but “futurist” errors in general, with which I am quite familiar, having been a futurist myself for several years.

Perhaps I am mistaken about you being a futurist, but I concluded you believe in a future 7-year tribulation, The Antichrist and “man of sin” as an individual sitting in a future rebuilt temple and such, since you wrote:

Peter Timmins's answer to What is the abomination of desolation that is referred to in the New Testament?

“When the AntiChrist goes into the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and declares himself to be god and demands that everyone worship him. This also is the event that undeniably reveals who the AntiChrist is unequivocally.”

Since I don’t have any knowledge of what you believe, why don’t you tell me what you believe the abomination of desolation is?

Where is the temple of God?

[PeteWaldo]

Your equating the soon to be rebuilt Jewish Temple in Jerusalem (go see this site for more ~The Holy Temple in Jerusalem: Yesterday Tomorrow Today) with the Temple of God is where you err. They are going to do this, and soon. This is the Temple the AntiChrist is going to enter to perform the abomination of desecration. The Jews are going to continue in error by rejecting Christ, with their return to the Levitical sacrifices as the greatest expression of this, until this abomination occurs. That is when the scales will fall from their eyes and they will see the truth. So, by your reckoning, when was/will be the abomination of desecration and what was it/will it be?

[PeteWaldo]

“Your equating the soon to be rebuilt Jewish Temple in Jerusalem with the Temple of God is where you err.”

Your equating John Nelson Darby’s inverted pyramid of pile-on presumption to scripture is the error.

If not, where did you come up with the idea of a rebuilt temple in our future, through scripture?

Was Jesus’ ONE sacrifice for sins FOREVER, through which He built our perfect temple, so imperfect, unfinished and incomplete, that there will need to be another temple and a resumption of the old covenant and a restoration of animal sacrifice to satisfy you?

[PeteWaldo]

Your equating the soon to be rebuilt Jewish Temple in Jerusalem (go see this site for more ~The Holy Temple in Jerusalem: Yesterday Tomorrow Today) with the Temple of God is where you err. They are going to do this, and soon. This is the Temple the AntiChrist is going to enter to perform the abomination of desecration. The Jews are going to continue in error by rejecting Christ, with their return to the Levitical sacrifices as the greatest expression of this, until this abomination occurs. That is when the scales will fall from their eyes and they will see the truth. So, by your reckoning, when was/will be the abomination of desecration and what was it/will it be?

[PeteWaldo]

“Your equating the soon to be rebuilt Jewish Temple in Jerusalem with the Temple of God is where you err.”

Talk about “gross error”, your equating John Nelson Darby’s inverted pyramid of pile-on presumption to scripture, is the error.

If not, where did you come up with the idea of a rebuilt temple in our future, through scripture?

Was Jesus’ ONE sacrifice for sins FOREVER, through which He built our perfect temple, so imperfect, unfinished and incomplete, that there will need to be another temple and a resumption of the old covenant and a restoration of animal sacrifices to satisfy you?

[PeteWaldo]

The coming Temple is going to be a JEWISH Temple, for the JEWS, not a Christian Temple. They are going to go back to the Mosaic Law sacrificial system. We both know that Jesus negated that system on the cross. However, they don’t accept that and are going to go back to it. That is the Temple that Scripture talks about briefly.

[PeteWaldo]

In your original post you claimed to have somehow discovered all this through independent Bible study, but by now even you should be able to see it is all John Nelson Darby. No rebuilt temple would get anybody anywhere since it would be desolate before the first stone was laid because of Jesus’ ONE sacrifice for sins forever.

Did you notice how you keep confirming the numbered points I credited to you, that you balked at? You practically summed them up in this reply alone! Let’s review what your post suggests.

1. Exclude Jews from the new covenant?

2. Cheer on a restoration of the old covenant that waxed away?

3. Suggest that Jesus' one sacrifice for sins forever was somehow so insufficient, incomplete and unfinished, that a resumption of animal sacrifices in the future would be appropriate or sanctified for any reason?

4. Take salvation through the Gospel away from Jews when it was specifically given to the Jew first?

5. Denigrate the temple that Jesus built in three days, by cheering on a future physical temple, made with hands?

6. Believe that God would dwell in a temple made with hands?

7. Believe such a temple could ever be consecrated, to then be desolated, when our high priest is seated in the true tabernacle that the Lord pitched, and rules in His kingdom today?

8. Reject the kingdom of Jesus Christ that arrived in the first century, to cheer on some future carnal kingdom of the flesh on earth, when Jesus told us His kingdom is specifically not of this world and is within us?

Nor did you point out where SCRIPTURE talks about a rebuilt temple.

Here’s what one of John Darby’s most ardent supporters said of Darby’s eschatological invention

“Throughout the writings of the apostle Paul he again and again refers to a wondrous secret, which he designates in a special way as "the mystery," or "the great mystery." Other mysteries he treats of, as we have seen, and shall notice later; but there is one that is preeminently such. It occupies much of his ministry, and is clearly the chief gem in the diadem of the truth of Christianity; yet for centuries it was almost entirely lost sight of. In fact, until brought to the fore through the writings and the preaching and teaching of a distinguished ex-clergyman, Mr. J. N. Darby, in the early part of the last century, it is scarcely to be found in a single book or sermon throughout a period of sixteen hundred years! If any doubt this statement, let them search, as the writer has in measure done, the remarks of the so-called Fathers, both pre- and post-Nicene; the theological treatises of the scholastic divines; Roman Catholic writers of all shades of thought; the literature of the Reformation; the sermons and expositions of the Puritans; and the general theological works of the day. He will find "the mystery" conspicuous by its absence. Of ordinances exalted to the place of mysteries, as in heathen rites, he will find much; but as to the mystery, which to the apostle was so unspeakably precious, rarely a reference!"

But how did Darby come up with it? It all began with a Roman Church Jesuit named Francisco Ribera’s counter-reformation creation, invented to divert the reformers attention away from an understanding that the Roman Church was the “whore of Babylon” mentioned in the book of Revelation.

AN END TIME MYTH

[PeteWaldo]

You keep ignoring what I said. I am NOT saying that the Temple is where Christians are going to need to go and worship. It is the JEWS that are going to do it. They are wrong in not accepting Christ now, and will still be wrong when they go back to Temple worship and sacrifices. We know, from Scripture, that there is going to be another Temple. Here is a very clear reference to it:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This fits exactly with what Jesus was talking about here:

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

And it also is what is talked about here:

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

You keep trying to fit me into some place I do not belong. You keep trying to force me into fitting these eight points you got from someone. Well, THEY DO NOT DESCRIBE WHAT I HAVE LEARNED FROM READING THE BIBLE AND DO NOT APPLY TO ME. Can you get that now? I have never read Darcy, nor any of the other people you think I might have. I HAVE READ THE BIBLE AND RECEIVED GUIDANCE FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT, and that’s it. Nothing more to it, so quit trying to make me fit some mold you have gotten from reading some other guy. Try just reading the Scripture and asking for guidance from the Holy Spirit. When you really do that amazing things happen. The Scripture comes alive and become clear. It doesn’t require any special training or reading a bunch of other people’s writings on it, just the Bible and the Holy Spirit. You might want to try it sometime. You may see how far out there I left field the things you are saying really are when compared to Scripture.

[PeteWaldo]

“You keep ignoring what I said.”

Not in the least.

“I am NOT saying that the Temple is where Christians are going to need to go and worship.”

How on earth did you get from my post that I thought the temple would be where Christians worship??

“It is the JEWS that are going to do it.”

And my post with the copied list, answered directly to your allusion that somehow Jews are excluded from the new covenant and the ONE sacrifice for sins forever, and must instead be saved by a resumption of the old covenant. But they don’t. Indeed I believe that declaring such is borderline blasphemy.

What about faithful Jews over the last 2,000 years, before their new temple and resumption of sacrifices? Burning in hell?

I believe that those Jews that may remain sovereignly blinded, but faithfully walk in the Spirit of God, continue to have the same disposition they have had throughout the Christian era. They are saved by the Son of God, even though they don’t know it. In summary…..

1Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

SPIRIT OF SLUMBER

“ I HAVE READ THE BIBLE AND RECEIVED GUIDANCE FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT, and that’s it. Nothing more to it…..”

There, there, so then everyone who has read the Bible but arrived at a conclusion different than yours (Darby’s) is in “gross error”, because they obviously can’t be guided by the Holy Spirit, since you are? Do you understand how juvenile and comical a declaration like that is?

I’ve seen it dozens of times before in “Christian” forums by those misguided enough to declare it, because they are unable to defend the doctrine they have chosen to follow. Nor do I need to be schooled by a futurist - remember, I was one. Reading the scriptures prayerfully, that demonstrate the errors in Darby’s pop-19th century futurist doctrine, is how I was able to overcome it.

Even as you were unable to explain where SCRIPTURE describes the need for a physical temple to be built, that you think the Jews will need for some reason, during this new covenant era.

While you don’t even seem to recognize how unChristian (indeed Nicolaitan) your declaration was. Much less the origins of your eschatology that inspired the panic. Back when I was a futurist I was afraid to click on links like this too.

AN END TIME MYTH

[PeteWaldo]

“And my post with the copied list, answered directly to your allusion that somehow Jews are excluded from the new covenant and the ONE sacrifice for sins forever, and must instead be saved by a resumption of the old covenant. But they don’t. Indeed I believe that declaring such is borderline blasphemy.”

And once again you choose to either ignore what I said about this or just don’t understand plain English. I never said it was right or acceptable to God that they are going to do this. In fact I have gone to great lengths multiple times to say that it is wrong for them to do this. This has nothing to do, as you continue to try and have me say, with the Gospel not being available for them. It most certainly is, but they have, are, and will continue, to choose to reject it. That is NOT to say that some haven’t, nor will not, accept their Messiah because we see not only from the book of Acts, but all throughout history that indeed some do. However, the majority have refused and will continue to refuse Christ. This will only change when the AntiChrist commits the abomination of desecration. This will be their, collective, wake up call.

You have also, wrongly, accused me of being afraid to click on the link you keep trying to get me to go to to “see the truth”. Well, I did click on it the very first time you posted it. What I saw was a hot mess. I have found thru my studies that websites like this, that are just a hot mess to look at, also tend to be wrong in what they are saying. This one is no exception. I personally think they tend to be this way because it reflects where their information ultimately comes from. I cannot help but reflect on this passage when I see these types of sites:

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

These sites are definitely confusing, not only visually but also in what they say, just as this one is. Bottom line, the doctrines espoused on this site are not in line with the plain reading of Scripture. They are not only visually confusing, but are also Scripturally confusing and Spiritually confusing. They are nothing more than another attempt by the enemy to lead people into error, and they have succeeded in your case. You try to accuse me of subscribing to whatever it was that Darby said. As I have never read anything from him, as I have told you, then that is a demonstrably false accusation. You also have tried, repeatedly and unsuccessfully, to denigrate me by implying that I have not been lead by the Holy Spirit in my understanding of Scripture. You reiterate this whenever I invite you to do the same. However, this is exactly how we are commanded to do it.

Jeremiah 29:12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.

Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matthew 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

We are also called to test whatever someone tells us thru Scripture, which is exactly what I do with EVERYTHING I hear. What you are saying does not agree with the plain reading of Scripture.

Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Acts 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

So, once again and for the last time, you are leading people into error. Reply to this or not, it really doesn’t matter. This will be the last time I will reply to you because you are being willfully blind. I pray that one day the scales will fall from your eyes and you will come to the truth.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

[PeteWaldo]

It was here that he blocked me, not allowing me an opportunity to answer. So I lost a half hour of work on a reply that went down a black hole when I went to post it. While he was all about declaring anyone who didn't agree with him as being in error, he finally realized he could not defend his doctrine.
I replied roughly as.

"“And my post with the copied list, answered directly to your allusion that somehow Jews are excluded from the new covenant and the ONE sacrifice for sins forever, and must instead be saved by a resumption of the old covenant. But they don’t. Indeed I believe that declaring such is borderline blasphemy.”

And once again you choose to either ignore what I said about this or just don’t understand plain English. I never said it was right or acceptable to God that they are going to do this. In fact I have gone to great lengths multiple times to say that it is wrong for them to do this.

Which would make any future temple irrelevant. If it couldn't be consecrated it couldn't be desolated. Yet you have this whole grand scheme of "The" "Antichrist" defiling something that couldn't be defiled.

This has nothing to do, as you continue to try and have me say, with the Gospel not being available for them. It most certainly is, but they have, are, and will continue, to choose to reject it. That is NOT to say that some haven’t, nor will not, accept their Messiah because we see not only from the book of Acts, but all throughout history that indeed some do. However, the majority have refused and will continue to refuse Christ.

Yet you continue to fail to show us where scripture indicates there is a need for a rebuilt temple in the future. And what about all of the Jews for the 2,000 years before this future temple is built? Burning in hell?
I believe faithful Jews that walk in the Spirit of God, having been blinded by God Himself as per Romans 11, have been saved by the Son of God throughout the Christian era even though they don't know it.
http://israelinbibleprophecy.com/spirit_of_slumber.htm

This verse would seem a little summary of it.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

This will only change when the AntiChrist commits the abomination of desecration. This will be their, collective, wake up call.

All Darby. How can a temple that you indicate could not be consecrated (since you suggest it wouldn't have anything to do with God), be desecrated by a "The" "Antichrist"? In spite of repeated requests you still haven't shared the scriptures that you believe call for a future rebuilt temple.

You have also, wrongly, accused me of being afraid to click on the link you keep trying to get me to go to to “see the truth”. Well, I did click on it the very first time you posted it. What I saw was a hot mess.

Indeed it is a hot mess! From Jesuit Francisco Ribera's 16th century counter-reformation invention (though the Reformers never bought into it), to Manuel de Lacunza's millennial reign, assembled, tweaked and embellished with Margaret McDonald's dream by John Nelson Darby in the mid-19th century.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/end_time_myth.htm

Yet this pop-doctrine still permeates half of the modern church, even as we watch Europe fall to Islam.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/falling_away_apostasy.htm

I have found thru my studies that websites like this, that are just a hot mess to look at, also tend to be wrong in what they are saying.

Now there's an intellectual approach! You don't like the way the site looks.
The reason it looks bad to you likely because you could see that it was espousing things that were contrary to what you choose to believe, yet made more sense. The term for that feeling is "cognitive dissonance". Which is also why you removed my ability to reply. If you were decent you would have blocked me after I replied, but you couldn't afford to see more truth.

This one is no exception. I personally think they tend to be this way because it reflects where their information ultimately comes from.

Which would be New Testament prophecy through the lens of history, as viewed through the church tradition of historicism, as those great men of God of the Reformation approached prophecy. As opposed to the pop-19th century stand-alone doctrine of John Nelson Darby.

I cannot help but reflect on this passage when I see these types of sites:

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

These sites are definitely confusing, not only visually but also in what they say, just as this one is.

Simply wishing something were so, doesn't make it so. This is only a reflection of your inability to consider prophecy through the church tradition of historicism, while approaching it with open eyes and a Berean spirit.

Bottom line, the doctrines espoused on this site are not in line with the plain reading of Scripture.

Which well explains where your errors come from. A person could never understand the figurative language used in dreams and visions in prophecy with a "plain reading". If we could, where would we expect a literal 7 headed 10 horned scarlet beast to appear on earth? We can only understand these prophetic passages through the science of hermeneutics.

They are not only visually confusing, but are also Scripturally confusing and Spiritually confusing.

Based on your approach it's not surprising you are confused.

They are nothing more than another attempt by the enemy to lead people into error, and they have succeeded in your case. You try to accuse me of subscribing to whatever it was that Darby said. As I have never read anything from him, as I have told you, then that is a demonstrably false accusation.

Just like you, I didn't know John Nelson Darby was responsible for futurist doctrine, when I was a futurist either. So it wasn't a false accusation, but rather your perception that is was, because you are unfamiliar with the source of your eschatology. You can start here

John Nelson Darby "He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby

You also have tried, repeatedly and unsuccessfully, to denigrate me by implying that I have not been lead by the Holy Spirit in my understanding of Scripture.

I did nothing of the kind. You are projecting, my friend. It was you that denigrated me, with suggestion that since you believe you are lead to your conclusions by the Holy Spirit, then by extension, that would indicate that if anyone draws a conclusion different than yours they could not be lead by the Holy Spirit.

You reiterate this whenever I invite you to do the same. However, this is exactly how we are commanded to do it.

Jeremiah 29:12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.

Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matthew 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

We are also called to test whatever someone tells us thru Scripture, which is exactly what I do with EVERYTHING I hear. What you are saying does not agree with the plain reading of Scripture.

Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Acts 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

So, once again and for the last time, you are leading people into error.

Yet you don't seem to realize that you make this judgment on the basis that you have been indoctrinated into a pop-19th century eschatology (with perhaps a little fudging of your own around the edges - which would make your view unique in all the world, which should offer good reason for alarm on your part). Something else you won't understand until you investigate it, is that following in Darby's doctrine you are not in a position to judge, as it is a glass house.

Reply to this or not, it really doesn’t matter.

So he invites me to respond, but then blocks me so that I waste a half hour of my time composing a response that goes down a black hole. Not surprising from someone who can't even explain where scripture demands his future rebuilt temple.

This will be the last time I will reply to you because you are being willfully blind. I pray that one day the scales will fall from your eyes and you will come to the truth.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

My friend I well understand the "truth" of John Darby's futurist doctrine. That's why I consider prophecy through the continuous historic approach through which all Jews and Christians understand Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled, as well as the church approach to New Testament prophecy for its first 1800 years, including those great men of God of the Reformation.

I have studied all four approaches, and scripture through the lens of each one, as well as having had them poked and prodded in Christian forums over a decade. How many of the four approaches have you studied? Here's a little summary of each from a decade of offering and asking in Christian forums.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/