Was Mohammad from MECCA

[Peter]

To me this letter is an appeal to the church in the East to try and keep it together in the wake of the Islamic invasion. It is interesting that the letter also states that the Muslims treat Christians pretty well ......

Stealing half their property and offering a pittance back is "treating them pretty well"?

....... and actually give to the Churches, .....

While offering them back a pittance of what they stole from them as if that makes them nice guys.

..... yet in the East the Christians appear to have given in to the Muslims and abandoned their faith and become Muslims (possibly).

CHRISTIANS did not.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.

The choice for Christian posers was, do you want to be enslaved by a jizya tax, or play like you are a Muslim after having deluded yourself into believing you had been a Christian.

He then talk about a man who was first seen in Radan (wherever that is) but failed in his mission where the Christians and pagans rejected him and forced him out. It appears then that this person ended in the East region where they embraced him whilst the Christians didn’t lift a finger to stop it occurring. I mentioned this because it sounds very similar to the Mohammad character we read in the Muslim stories about his rejection in Mecca and subsequent migration to Medina where he was embraced. However I am still looking into this place called region of Radan to find out where it is. I am not saying this event is related to Mohammad, I’m saying it sounds very similar and could be someone completely different.

In fact it could describe anybody, yet you use it as though it becomes some sort of a basis, for you to be one of a couple guys in the world today, that does not believe that Muhammad was from the same Mecca that still exists today. If you are going to stand alone against history, you need something other than all the presumption you have presented here to make your case.

Not dissimilar to your stand-alone view, we had a couple guys a while back making a claim that the Vatican invented Islam, but were unable to get to first base in answering questions asked of them, and were found to be simply parroting a guy that, come to find out, is known to be a fraud.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1870.0

What do you suppose this forum would look like if we let folks lard it with whatever kind of claims they wanted to include in these pages, while ignoring the questions we ask of their subjects? Look at your thread. You are scrambling to try to construct it on the fly. Were your unique view correct, we could basically throw out half the forum threads, beginning with everything of Dr. Amari and Craig Winn. And this based on your popping around the internet frantically grabbing bits and pieces willy nilly to try to make your, what I believe to be hopeless point based on the evidence.

Do you think this thread represents the kind of content that would be best for read-only participants to be distracted by, and wasting their time on, when they might have otherwise been focusing on subjects like the sacrifice of the Lamb of God who saves all from sin who have faith in His shed blood, while pointing out that Muhammad was, and taught, the EXACT OPPOSITE?

When I talk about the non Islamic references we have for Mohammad. These actually trump any known Islamic literature by more than 100 hundred years. The conclusion is that these sources have Mecca anywhere from Midian to the bottom of Mesopotamia. But not a single reference to where Mecca is today. Don’t you think that is odd ?

Pete, I seem to have a real issue with quoting post etc, so please bare with me ok.

[Phill]

To me this letter is an appeal to the church in the East to try and keep it together in the wake of the Islamic invasion. It is interesting that the letter also states that the Muslims treat Christians pretty well ......

Stealing half their property and offering a pittance back is "treating them pretty well"?

....... and actually give to the Churches, .....

While offering them back a pittance of what they stole from them to pretend they were nice guys.

..... yet in the East the Christians appear to have given in to the Muslims and abandoned their faith and become Muslims (possibly).

CHRISTIANS did not.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.

The choice for Christian posers was, do you want to be enslaved by a jizya tax, or play like you are a Muslim after having deluded yourself into believing you had been a Christian.

He then talk about a man who was first seen in Radan (wherever that is) but failed in his mission where the Christians and pagans rejected him and forced him out. It appears then that this person ended in the East region where they embraced him whilst the Christians didn’t lift a finger to stop it occurring. I mentioned this because it sounds very similar to the Mohammad character we read in the Muslim stories about his rejection in Mecca and subsequent migration to Medina where he was embraced. However I am still looking into this place called region of Radan to find out where it is. I am not saying this event is related to Mohammad, I’m saying it sounds very similar and could be someone completely different.

In fact it could describe perhaps thousands of guys, yet you use it as though it becomes some sort of a basis, for you to be one of a couple guys in the world today, that does not believe that Muhammad was from the same Mecca that still exists today. If you are going to stand alone against history, you need something other than all the presumption you have presented here to make your case.

Not dissimilar to your stand-alone view, we had a couple guys a while back making a claim that the Vatican invented Islam, but were unable to get to first base in answering questions asked of them, and were found to be simply parroting a guy that, come to find out, is known to be a fraud.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1870.0

What do you suppose this forum would look like if we simply sat back, and let folks lard it with whatever kind of unsupported nonsense they wanted to vomit onto these pages, without challenging it? Look at your thread. You are scrambling to try to construct it on the fly. Were your unique view correct, we could basically throw out half the forum threads, beginning with everything of Dr. Amari and Craig Winn. And this based on your popping around the internet frantically grabbing bits and pieces willy nilly to try to make your hopeless point.

Well Pete I can see that you are stuck in your ways and if someone wants to offer views other than those like Rafat Amari then you don't want to hear about it. I am surprised that you appear to not want want to discuss the earliest references we have to Islam. Rafat Amari used the Hadith extensively in his book to come to his conclusions, including other Islamic sources. But if I use the same thing, it's called "frantically grabbing bits and pieces". How do you think historians do their work ?. They do just exactly that to make assumptions based on the evidence. I have shown you plenty of evidence from both Islamic and non Islamic sources to form an opinion. You have even done so yourself by telling us about the Qiblas of the oldest Mosques. History is about learning what happened and using a variety of sources to gain a comprehension to advance knowlege. I am here to learn and talk to like minded people in order to improve and hopefully discuss issues that arise, like with this thread, that seem to go against the grain of what we already know. How are we going to advance our knowledge of this barbaric religion if the closed for business sign is up. I'm not here to ram my beliefs down your throat, I'm here to discuss them.

[Peter]

Well Pete I can see that you are stuck in your ways and if someone wants to offer views other than those like Rafat Amari then you don't want to hear about it.

What does this have to do with my "ways"? What you are doing is tilting against the whole world's understanding of where Muhammad lived - scholar and lay person - with your opinion as a stand-alone exception. Don't you think that obligates you to make your point with other than the vague conjecture you attempted to support it with?

When I talk about the non Islamic references we have for Mohammad. These actually trump any known Islamic literature by more than 100 hundred years. The conclusion is that these sources have Mecca anywhere from Midian to the bottom of Mesopotamia.

Tilting against the world even as you admit that your conclusion is based on "sources have Mecca anywhere from Midian to the bottom of Mesopotamia".
So then it seems all you want to do is refuse to believe that Mecca was located, right where all the rest of the world understands it was, during Muhammad's lifetime. Apparently anywhere and everywhere else will do "from Midian to the bottom of Mesopotamia".

Even suggesting that...

I have shown you plenty of evidence from both Islamic and non Islamic sources to form an opinion.

Which formed an opinion of yours that would seem to suggest that Mecca was, anywhere other than where Mecca is, but which formed my opinion that it was all nothing more than giant leaps of conjecture and false presumption, all toward an effort to perhaps convince yourself that your conjecture is correct, while the whole rest of the world and it's scholars are incorrect.

Rafat Amari used the Hadith extensively in his book to come to his conclusions, including other Islamic sources. But if I use the same thing, it's called "frantically grabbing bits and pieces". How do you think historians do their work ?.

Methodically, through study of geography, archaeology, and history, including original source material, with particular attention to chronology - like Dr. Rafat Amari - and specifically unlike your undated, non-chronological conjecture and presumption that you have deluded yourself into believing is the "same thing" as that of Dr. Amari's.
Indeed directly opposing Dr. Amari.

How are we going to advance our knowledge of this barbaric religion if the closed for business sign is up.

How are we going to help Muhammad's followers understand the basics, to aid overcoming their false prophet Muhammad, if we clutter up and confuse the forum up with a bunch of unsupported conjecture that runs not only opposite to the forum, but also the rest of humanity's understanding that Muhammad lived in Mecca, and Mecca was in the same place in his lifetime, as it still is today?

I'm not here to ram my beliefs down your throat, I'm here to discuss them.

Yet you repeatedly avoided discussion by ignoring my replies and questions.

[Phill]

Hi Pete

Have sent you a PM.

[Peter]

Hi Pete

Have sent you a PM.

Thanks Bro. Got it and replied.

I'm going to move this thread to General Discussion since it would be hard to make the case that it has something to do with the history of Muhammad in Mecca.
It becomes apparent that it is an extremely minor, perhaps stand-alone, opinion when we for example Google something like - muhammad was not from mecca
Indeed in quotes it returns only one hit that is not even making that claim.