Manifestation of God

[jimi]

Let me ask you again jimi:

1. If God wanted to reveal Himself to us as a man in the flesh and walk among us, could He? If God wanted to do that, and buy the house next door to you and move in, could He, if He so chose to do so?

2. And let me also ask again, can you deny that you follow a thief?

1. No.

2. Yes.

Then by your first answer you deny that God is all powerful. He manifested Himself many ways throughout history. As a burning bush, as a cloud, as a pillar of fire, etc. You have essentially relegated God to what your mind can fit around. Trying to finitely explain the infinite...

By your first question: "If God wanted to reveal Himself to us as a man... could He?"  I assume that you are refering to Jesus and I answered, "No".

God did not reveal Himself as a man, nor as a bush: "And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush..." Exodus 3.2

Nor is God a cloud nor a pillar of fire. Moses and the Israelites were not commanded to worship the bush nor the cloud nor the fire but to worship God: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth..." Exodus 20.3

"Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female..." Deuteronomy 4.15-16

So when you worship any man or person or thing, including Jesus, you are violating the law and the Covenant that God made.  God did not break His covenant even though He can, as you say, He is all powerful and can do anything if He chose to do so.  But God has defined Himself in this Covenant and if you choose to worship any man or figure, the likeness of male or female... it is you who has broken the Covenant.

And no, Pete, it is not as you say, 'what my mind can fit around.'  It is what God has promised and has warned: "Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee. For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God." Deuteronomy 4.23-24

[Peter]

By your first question: "If God wanted to reveal Himself to us as a man... could He?"  I assume that you are refering to Jesus and I answered, "No".

No jimi, I intended it as a stand-alone question. That's why I mentioned Him moving into the house next door to you.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=601.msg2906#msg2906

1. If God wanted to take on the flesh of a man - to form the body of a man to inhabit Himself - and buy the house next door to you, and move in, could He if He so chose to?

[Peter]

And no, Pete, it is not as you say, 'what my mind can fit around.'

True. Rather it's what the child-like mind of a selfish 7th century desert dwelling illiterate could fit around. You, in turn, have limited your understanding to his, and are required to reject the Word of God to do so.

Did you ever really think about Mohammed's description of his carnal heaven for example? Multiple virgins to defile, rivers of wine, perpetually young servant boys (does that mean the rest of us grow old in heaven?) and a chicken in every pot, and most importantly fresh running water. Do you really think heaven is about 56:21 And the flesh of fowls, any that they may desire. jewel encrusted gold couches, shining goblets, and silk clothing? Or does that sound more like something a violent 7th century illiterate might encourage a bunch of flesh minded reprobates with to continue raping, pillaging and plundering in his god's name - even striving for death - the same way suicide bombers do today?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=264.0

 It is what God has promised and has warned: "Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee. For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God." Deuteronomy 4.23-24

2. Did God make this covenant with Gentiles like you and I jimi, or with His chosen people the Jews?

3. Did God instruct His people under that covenant to build a tabernacle?
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=tabernacle&t=KJV&sf=5

4. What was the purpose of the alter in that tabernacle?
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=bullock&t=KJV&sf=5

5. Do Muslims sacrifice bullocks on an alter for "a sin offering for atonement"? Lambs, birds, or even flour and frankincense? (though Muslims are not Jews to begin with - they are Gentiles)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=29&v=36&t=KJV#36

6. If not then how do Gentile Muslims atone for their sins?

[jimi]

Did God make this covenant with Gentiles like you and I jimi, or with His chosen people the Jews?

This covenant was made with the Children of Israel.

[Peter]

Did God make this covenant with Gentiles like you and I jimi, or with His chosen people the Jews?

The covenant was made with the Children of Israel.

Why did you break this subject out if you were afraid to discuss it? Why not start with number 1, the first paragraph in this thread that you posted?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=732.msg2956#msg2956

Who were/are the Israelites jimi?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod%27s_Temple#The_Court_of_the_Israelites

The old covenant was made with the seed of Isaac.

Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=237.0

Are you that unfamiliar with the historical realities?

7. Who did God instruct to build the tabernacle, and sacrifice animals to atone for their sins jimi, Jews or Gentiles?
8. Who followed those instructions jimi, Jews or Gentiles?
9. Why did Herod's temple have a "court of the Gentiles"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod%27s_Temple#The_Court_of_the_Gentiles
10. Were the Levite priests that performed the sacrifices Jews or Gentiles jimi?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod%27s_Temple#The_Court_of_the_Priests

Surely you're not trying to pretend that 3500 years of biblical and secular records of Jewish history do not exist.

[Peter]

God did not reveal Himself as a man, nor as a bush: "And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush..." Exodus 3.2

Nor is God a cloud nor a pillar of fire. Moses and the Israelites were not commanded to worship the bush nor the cloud nor the fire but to worship God: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth..." Exodus 20.3

"Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female..." Deuteronomy 4.15-16

So when you worship any man or person or thing, including Jesus, you are violating the law and the Covenant that God made.  God did not break His covenant even though He can, as you say, He is all powerful and can do anything if He chose to do so.  But God has defined Himself in this Covenant and if you choose to worship any man or figure, the likeness of male or female... it is you who has broken the Covenant.

You seem to be suggesting that every time God revealed Himself to mankind that it should be counted as a separate God. If God had not manifest, or revealed Himself to mankind, how would we know He existed?

Please answer to your first paragraph first, then we can more easily tackle the later points. That's why I saved this.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=732.msg2956#msg2956

[jimi]

Please answer to your first paragraph first, then we can more easily tackle the later points. That's why I saved this.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=732.msg2956#msg2956

I responded with this verse: "Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing..."

God does not manifest Himself as in your hypothetical question, "take on the flesh of a man - to form the body of a man..." Nor would He, "...buy the house next door to you, and move in..."

Certainly God can do anything that He wants and is not limited; yes, He can take on flesh; and yes, He can buy the house next door and move in, yet God does not need to in order for us to believe in Him.   God had defined Himself in the Covenant and warned against taking on an image of anything: "...or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." Exodus 20.4, Deuteronomy 5.8

The point is not 'who' the Covenant was given to, nor any other issue concerning the time and place of the Covenant. It does not matter if it was given to the Jews, the Gentiles or the Children of Israel...  I don't understand why you keep bringing this up.  The point is that God is God and not anything else, not a man, not a bush nor a cloud.

Anyone who claims that Jesus is God has simply ignored the Covenant and has "corrupted" himself.  Do these warnings mean anything to you?

"Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget..."
"Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female..." Deuteronomy 4.23, 15-16

If God had not manifest, or revealed Himself to mankind, how would we know He existed?

"An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign..." Matthew 12.39, 16.4, Mark 8.12, Luke 11.29

You need a sign and a manifestation?  You need God to reveal Himself to know that He exists?  Sorry, but that's just plain idol worship!

[Peter]

Please answer to your first paragraph first, then we can more easily tackle the later points. That's why I saved this.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=732.msg2956#msg2956

I responded with this verse: "Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing..."

God does not manifest Himself as in your hypothetical question, "take on the flesh of a man - to form the body of a man..." Nor would He, "...buy the house next door to you, and move in..."

Certainly God can do anything that He wants and is not limited; yes, He can take on flesh;....

And that's just what the bible record as revealed through all of the new covenant prophets and witnesses says that He did:
John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm

...... and yes, He can buy the house next door and move in, yet God does not need to in order for us to believe in Him.

He didn't do it because of a "need" of His "for us to believe in Him". He did it out of love for us, to save us from our sin.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

He provided for propitiation because there is only one result of sin

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

He did it through a new covenant that was prophesied many hundreds of years in advance of Jesus being made manifest on earth:

Jeremiah 31:31  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:    32  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: {although...: or, should I have continued an husband unto them?}    33  But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

  God had defined Himself in the Covenant and warned against taking on an image of anything: "...or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." Exodus 20.4, Deuteronomy 5.8

This verse regarding men making idols is totally irrelevant. You know that, and perhaps that's why you only partially quoted:

Exd 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

That has absolutely nothing to do with how God chose to manifest, or reveal, Himself to us.

The point is not 'who' the Covenant was given to, nor any other issue concerning the time and place of the Covenant. It does not matter if it was given to the Jews, the Gentiles or the Children of Israel...  I don't understand why you keep bringing this up.

Because that covenant is with His chosen people - the Jews. You are not a Jew, yet you keep proof texting verses from that covenant of 3500 years ago, that are also hopelessly irrelevant to this conversation to begin with. Salvation came unto Gentiles like you and I through a new covenant.

Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying], I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

The point is that God is God and not anything else, not a man, not a bush nor a cloud.

Anyone who claims that Jesus is God has simply ignored the Covenant......

Which covenant? The one God had with His chosen people the Jews, or the new covenant that included Gentiles like you and I in God's plan for salvation?

..... and has "corrupted" himself.

Jesus said that Jesus is God. That's why the Jews wanted to stone Him:

Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

And again:

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him...

How do you explain this:

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

[Peter]

Do these warnings mean anything to you?

"Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget..."
"Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female..." Deuteronomy 4.23, 15-16

Of course they mean something to me. That's why I don't worship God in buildings that are adorned with idols, like in the Roman church.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=75.0

Nor do I venerate Mary the way the Roman Catholics and Muslims do.
http://www.buddhistview.com/site/epage/18341_225.htm
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=16.0

Nor do I bow to a black rock 5 times a day, let alone suffer the indignation of a requirement to pilgrimage to it to prance around and around it, like some desert dwelling pagan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZME9NIrKMU

Nor do I pray as the heathen do:

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

[Peter]

If God had not manifest, or revealed Himself to mankind, how would we know He existed?

"An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign..." Matthew 12.39, 16.4, Mark 8.12, Luke 11.29

You have it backwards jimi. I am not seeking a sign, but recognizing truth as revealed through the Word of God.

It is Muslims that seek the signs. There are hundreds of YouTube channels with crazy phony "miracles" of "science" in Mohammed's book. "Mohammed said we are formed from a clot of blood - it's a miracle that he could have known that!!!"
96.2 Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:
I don't know about you, but I was formed by the union of a sperm cell and an egg. The above from Mohammed is obviously far more likely from simple observation of a woman's period, or perhaps miscarriage.

A YouTube search - miracles islam - yields 47,900 hits, and just look at the channels. Are they talking about Mohammed healing the blind so they can see? Making the lame so they can walk again? Of course not. Mohammed passed hot nails over the eyes to blind, and cut off hands and feet to lame. (and Muslims unto today) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fbXvq_ZIbw
Just look at the YouTube search on this link and what you will see is nothing less than 7th century desert dwelling pagan style superstition at work:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=miracles+islam&search_type=&aq=f

It is Muslims that seek out the sign of their "Allah's" name in clouds, trees and even in the scales of fish. Try a Yahoo search - miracles of islam
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=miracles+of+islam&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-701

http://www.miraclesofislam.com/

Allah's name in the ocean


Allah's name in clouds

Here's the "miracle" of Allah's name even on the side of a fish!

http://muttawa.blogspot.com/2006/03/fish-called-allah.html

Mat 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

It is indeed a wicked and adulterous generation that "seeketh after a sign" as so clearly demonstrated through the preposterous superstition above.

In this instance in scripture it seems the metaphorical use of the Greek term "genea" is meant:

generation
New Testament Greek Definition:
1074 genea {ghen-eh-ah'}
from (a presumed derivative of) 1085; TDNT - 1:662,114; n f
AV - generation 37, time 2, age 2, nation 1; 42
1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive
members of a genealogy
2b) metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments,
pursuits, character
2b1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive
generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

You need a sign and a manifestation?

Of course not. I'm filled with the Holy Spirit and doing the will of the Father as I have been tasked.
I recognize what God has shown me as He revealed Himself through His Word. He even offered concrete proof: http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=77.0

It isn't about my seeking a sign but God providing everything I need through His Word:

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

You follow Mohammed's words, who was, and taught, the exact opposite of the 1600 year record of God to mankind.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0

You need God to reveal Himself to know that He exists?

I only need what God provided me with. God did reveal Himself, and He did so in 2 covenants, through the 1600 year record, as revealed through all of the prophets and witnesses in His Word, that Mohammed's followers must necessarily reject, to follow Mohammed.

  

Sorry, but that's just plain idol worship!

Not at all. It is worshiping God, rather than the exact opposite, as revealed through Mohammed - a common thief - who not a single person ever even heard Allah, or Gabriel talk to. You simply take his word for it and reject the Word of God as a result. The local Arabs so well understood the sources of Mohammed's "inspiration" that Mohammed had to receive another "revelation" in a transparent attempt at damage control.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=452.0

Why don't you address the thread that inquires as to why you would think God would reveal Himself through a single unrepentant thief - that taught the exact opposite of all of the new covenant witnesses (let alone perverted the testimony of the old covenant witnesses).
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=734.0

That thievery even including capturing and sexually enslaving the daughters, and still-married wives, of the vanquished.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V22qDQqMPL0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=456.0

[jimi]

Your 'new covenant' is idolatry, Jesus is your graven image, your idol, your likeness and figure of God.

Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken..."  John 10.33-35

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."  Pslam 82.6

 

[Peter]

Your 'new covenant' is idolatry,....

That you have to reject (and even choose to blaspheme) the new testament/covenant, and all of the witnesses thereof, to follow stand-alone Mohammed, and his stand-alone 7th century religion, is a given, as he taught the exact opposite of the Gospel.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0
But that you would then turn right around, and in the very same post quote from the very covenant you reject, as though you could have any understanding of it, or as though it could possibly have any meaning to you, is ridiculous. Doesn't it make you feel foolish when you quote from the very testament you label as idolatry?

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

As you should be able to further see you also are rejecting the old testament in which, as I pointed out, the new covenant was prophesied.

No surprise then, that you chose not to do a point by point of the condemning evidence in the above several posts.

..... Jesus is your graven image,.....

As blaspheming and as unrelated and irrelevant as every other time you pretended so. Jesus is just as He is revealed through the old and new covenants - the Word of God.
That you choose to die wallowing in sin is between you and our judge.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

That sin results in death has been made known to you. That Mohammed is a false prophet has too. You will stand before our judge without excuse.

..... your idol, your likeness and figure of God.

Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

You pretend that Jesus never made Himself God, even as you recognize the Jews accused Him of it in what you quote, and were going to stone Him for it as blasphemy.
Indeed they eventually crucified Him for it. Just as prophesied in the Old Testament:

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken..."[/i]  John 10.33-35

What's the next verse jimi?

Jhn 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Is Jesus the Son of God or not? You can see that He said He is.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=56.0
Does it seem like every time you try to use (abuse) the Word of God it turns on you? That's because you are trying to conform the Word of God to an illiterate 7th century thief.
Thus the same testament that you blaspheme as idolatry (yet continue to quote from in failed efforts to find support), specifically identifies you as a liar:

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."  Pslam 82.6

Psa 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

http://www.oaim.org/gods.html

[jimi]

Doesn't it make you feel foolish when you quote from the very testament you label as idolatry?

I'm not a fool. It is not the testament that is idolatry, it is your interpretation of it.

I have attempted to show you that there is another meaning to the ministry of Christ, one of mercy and obediance. What you follow is corruption propagated by the false teachings of the pharisees: How often does Jesus warn against their lies and hypocracy?  Yet today we find the whole of christendom ignoring his words and conforming to the idolatry of the church.  Christendom has made the Messenger an idol and rejected the message.

The pharisees expected a warrior king to lead them back to their former glory but when Jesus taught mercy and obediance they rejected him.  Similarly today you and your fellow idolators expect Jesus to return as the warrior king yet when he returns teaching the same mercy and obediance you will reject him too... and will want to kill him too?

You pretend that Jesus never made Himself God, even as you recognize the Jews accused Him of it in what you quote, and were going to stone Him for it as blasphemy.

Jesus never made himself God, if he had believed that he was God he would have been a bit more clear about it. This has become such an important issue to you yet Jesus himself never seemed to make it important... such an issue would have been made very clear to every one and Jesus would have left no doubt by saying: 'I am God' and he would have repeated it throughout his ministry.

But Jesus never once said he was God, he never said 'I am God'. You want to believe that a man is God you will have to scrape together little verses here and there and reinterpret them out of context.

The verse in John 10.30 is clear to me that Jesus refered to the Book of Pslams: "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."  Pslam 82.6

What does it mean to you: 'You are gods; and all of you are children of God.'

Does it mean you are the son of God? Does it mean that I am the son of God? In this sence Jesus is the son of God and so am I. And yes, Brother Pete you are also the son of God.

[Peter]

Doesn't it make you feel foolish when you quote from the very testament you label as idolatry?

I'm not a fool.

Nor did I label you as one. I asked if it doesn't make you feel foolish to quote from the very testament you label as idolatry. What that makes you is a self-proclaimed idolater.
Indeed the Word of God prohibits me from calling anybody a fool.

It is not the testament that is idolatry, it is your interpretation of it.

First, that's not what you said. You wrote:

Your 'new covenant' is idolatry, Jesus is your graven image, your idol, your likeness and figure of God.

Secondly it isn't a matter of interpretation. Jesus sacrifice of Himself on the cross is it's subject. That's what the Gospel is. The "Good News" or "Glad tidings" is that Jesus sacrificed Himself on the cross to save us from our sin. All of the prophets of that testament wrote of it, whether of Jesus words predicting the event, their witness of the event, or their witness in the aftermath of the resurrection when Jesus returned (as witnessed by many) and supped with them. They also all recognized Jesus is the Son of God, and God His Father, as the hundreds of verses attest.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=56.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=316.0

You choose to follow the 23 year record of an unrepentant thief that came along 600 years later, who said himself that he was inspired by jinn in a cave, who recited the exact opposite. Indeed Mohammed's religion is the only religion that teaches it's adherents what not to believe, and leaves a vacuum as to what to believe, at it's core.
In other words you follow a jealous fallen angel as he is channeled through the false prophet Mohammed.

I have attempted to show you that there is another meaning to the ministry of Christ, one of mercy and obediance.

That's not another meaning, it's part of the Gospel, though there is no shortage of Muslims that proof text a verse from the parable of the nobleman to try to pretend that Jesus was violent, in an effort to drag Jesus down to the level of the reprobate nature of Mohammed - your murdering thief.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=223.0

What you follow is corruption propagated by the false teachings of the pharisees: How often does Jesus warn against their lies and hypocracy?

My friend, the pharisees were of Judaism, not of the Gospel. The Gospel is the exact opposite of what they would have chosen to write if a bunch of pharisees had wanted to deceive somebody.
However every sect of Judaism, as well as Christians, recognize that Jesus died on the cross. That's because it is a widely recognized historical event. Additionally, if someone didn't recognize that, they couldn't be a Christian. Simple as that - for the last 2,000 years.

Yet today we find the whole of christendom ignoring his words and conforming to the idolatry of the church.  Christendom has made the Messenger an idol and rejected the message.

The Gospel IS the message. It doesn't matter where you look in the last 2,000 years of history, Christians have always believed exactly what the Gospel still teaches today. To suggest otherwise - let alone that Christians once believed the exact opposite - is not only preposterous, but childish.

The pharisees expected a warrior king to lead them back to their former glory but when Jesus taught mercy and obediance they rejected him.  Similarly today you and your fellow idolators expect Jesus to return as the warrior king yet when he returns teaching the same mercy and obediance you will reject him too... and will want to kill him too?

You have already rejected Him to follow Mohammed - a common thief as you agree - since you have refused to answer to that. I have shown you the consequences if you should remain unrepentant and steeped in the spirit of antichrist:

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

You pretend that Jesus never made Himself God, even as you recognize the Jews accused Him of it in what you quote, and were going to stone Him for it as blasphemy.

Jesus never made himself God,....

And now you reject the very verse you quoted eariler in which the Pharisees confirmed that He did.

..... if he had believed that he was God he would have been a bit more clear about it.

Perhaps you find some ambiguity in this verse?

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

This has become such an important issue to you yet Jesus himself never seemed to make it important... such an issue would have been made very clear to every one and Jesus would have left no doubt by saying: 'I am God' and he would have repeated it throughout his ministry.

What you mean is that you have to try to write your own bible. You have to try to "think" your way into justifying rejecting the 1600 year record of God to mankind, so you can continue to follow the lies contained in the 23 year record of a single 7th century sex crazed, murdering, thief, by bowing to a black rock 5 times a day and praying the prayers of the heathen.

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

But Jesus never once said he was God, he never said 'I am God'.

He did as we have repeatedly shown you, and through many verses. You just prefer to worship Mohammed and his moon god.

You want to believe that a man is God you will have to scrape together little verses here and there and reinterpret them out of context.

The verse in John 10.30 is clear to me that Jesus refered to the Book of Pslams: "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."  Pslam 82.6

What does it mean to you: 'You are gods; and all of you are children of God.'

Does it mean you are the son of God?

The bible is clear that I am a son of God.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Does it mean that I am the son of God?

Sorry my friend, you are not even a son of God.
There is only one the Son of God.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=56.0

In this sence Jesus is the son of God and so am I.

Blasphemy against God comes as naturally to the sons of satan as water to a duck.

And yes, Brother Pete you are also the son of God.

The verse you quoted suggests what you will share with them in the very next verse:

Psa 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

http://www.oaim.org/gods.html

I left you a link to help with your misunderstanding, but as you yourself can readily see, you prefer blasphemy instead of seeking out truth.

[Peter]

You seem as focused on this thread, and this section, as if it were a YouTube video discussion. You refuse to discuss your prophet by the way he is revealed in your books, but prefer instead a merry-go-round of proof texted verses that you refuse to try to understand. Why do you suppose it is that you are reluctant to discuss Mohammed and his behavior?

Such as discussion of Mohammed's unrepentant thievery.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=734.0

Then we can continue on into the subjects of his murder of poets, his compassion manifest in blinding of folks with hot nails, and cutting off hands and feet and such.

 There are lots of resources in this site to enjoy. Why not expand your explorations in this regarding the facts of the textual history of the Quran, for example? Excellent new article in that regard:
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=761.0

[jimi]

The reason I'm here is because there is another interpretation of the Gospel that you, modern Christians, even the disciples missed that I am trying to share with you. If you believe that Jesus the man was also a God, I'm sorry I can't help you:

The Gospel is the exact opposite of what they would have chosen to write if a bunch of pharisees had wanted to deceive somebody.

Jesus warned about the pharisees because he knew how they twisted the scriptures and deceived the people.  They tried to kill Jesus to prove that he was not the Messiah but Jesus was not killed because he is the Messiah...

However every sect of Judaism, as well as Christians, recognize that Jesus died on the cross. That's because it is a widely recognized historical event. Additionally, if someone didn't recognize that, they couldn't be a Christian. Simple as that - for the last 2,000 years.

I tried to mention before that there were early Christians who did not accept the crucifixion...  But the point is that Jesus fullfilled the scriptures against the Jews and cursed them, in return they embelished his ministry with lies and blasphemy about a man god... The fact is that Jesus was sent only to Israel because only those well versed in the scriptures and the prophets would have understood, idolators certainly can't understand.  Even the disciples who knew little of the prophets were confused and perplexed at some of Jesus' teachings, they were even afraid to ask him.

Well, thats all Pete, you assume too much and you insulted me enough in this forum.

[Peter]

The reason I'm here is because there is another interpretation of the Gospel that you, modern Christians, even the disciples missed that I am trying to share with you.

Indeed! One that came along 600 years later in the person of a sex-obsessed murdering thief and slave taker/trader.

If you believe that Jesus the man was also a God, I'm sorry I can't help you:

Of course you can't because you follow the false prophet Mohammed who's 7th century religion, rather than teaching you what to believe, taught you what not to believe.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=628.0

The Gospel is the exact opposite of what they would have chosen to write if a bunch of pharisees had wanted to deceive somebody.

Jesus warned about the pharisees because he knew how they twisted the scriptures and deceived the people.  They tried to kill Jesus to prove that he was not the Messiah but Jesus was not killed because he is the Messiah...

He was killed, because He chose to be, to complete God's plan of salvation for Gentiles like you and I, jimi.

Jhn 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

However every sect of Judaism, as well as Christians, recognize that Jesus died on the cross. That's because it is a widely recognized historical event. Additionally, if someone didn't recognize that, they couldn't be a Christian. Simple as that - for the last 2,000 years.

I tried to mention before that there were early Christians who did not accept the crucifixion...

The problem is that there was no such thing as Christians that you describe, or they wouldn't have been Christians then, any more than they would be today.

But the point is that Jesus fullfilled the scriptures against the Jews and cursed them,.....

You are simply projecting Mohammed's and your own bigotry and hatred - by group - onto Jesus.

....... in return they embelished his ministry with lies and blasphemy about a man god... The fact is that Jesus was sent only to Israel because only those well versed in the scriptures and the prophets would have understood,......

You mean those "well versed" like the famous Greek sophist styled entertainer and liar Ahmed Deedat, perhaps?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=273.0

....... idolators certainly can't understand.  Even the disciples who knew little of the prophets were confused and perplexed at some of Jesus' teachings, they were even afraid to ask him.

Please provide the scriptures when you make such a claim regarding their fear of asking.
You seem to be confusing the Gospel with Mohammedanism, since Mohammed preferred to kill those that asked too many questions, like the poets of the day:

Surah 5:101 O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble.

"Allah has hated for you three things: ... 3. And asking too many questions (in disputed religious matters)." (Dr. Khan, Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 2, #555)

Well, thats all Pete, you assume too much and you insulted me enough in this forum.

Where did I insult you jimi? You label the New Testament an idol, and then turn right around and quote from it. Seems more like you insulting yourself.
As you well know, at least by now Mohammed's is a stand-alone 7th century bible that can't be supported by the Word of God - Old Testament or New - that God's people have followed for 3500 years in two covenants.

So you choose instead to blaspheme Jesus Christ with impunity, but when it comes to the topic of discussing Mohammed, which you have avoided perhaps a dozen times, you instead take a bow rather then answer questions like why would you believe God would reveal Himself through an unrepentant thief?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=734.0
But then you should know as well as I why you didn't want to discuss Mohammed. One cannot defend the indefensible.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=762.0
Instead of a conversation you preferred instead to keep ignoring responses as well as "insulting" God Himself, with your and the false prophet Mohammed's blasphemy.

Our video imam was also struck mute when asked if he thought God would reveal Himself through an unrepentant thief:
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=361.msg1666#msg1666