Author Topic: a Question about the Sabbath.  (Read 12373 times)

A Christian Brother

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a Question about the Sabbath.
« on: March 22, 2010, 09:26:14 AM »
Hi,

I have been posting of late on an SDA forum. As can be expected the situation regarding the Sabbath day came up.

While posting a reply a thought came to me, though I am not going to say that it is correct. It just makes sense to me.

When Jesus died, we know he rose again on the first day of the week. So Jesus was dead (in the flesh) on the day before which was a Sabbath day. I can see something here. The Book of Romans states that we are dead to the Law.

Romans 7:4
4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

What I can see is that as Jesus was dead on the Sabbath day, did God in reality use the Sabbath day as a means of us being dead to the law through Christ?

I'm not entirely sure I've put that well enough but still, I hope you can see what I am trying to say and ask.


God bless.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 05:17:18 PM by Peter »

resistingrexmundi

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Re: a Qustion about the Sabbath.
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2010, 08:07:35 AM »
Jesus' death coincided with Passover. His resurrection coincided with First fruits. These two holidays held more significance than the whole Saturday/Sunday debate. Later the Holy Spirit descended on the Feast of Weeks or Pentecost. When Jesus returns it is likely he will fulfill the fall feasts. His return will be at the sound of a trumpet (Feast of Trumpets) His judgement will probably coincide with (Yom Kippur the Day of Atonement) and then His ever present dwelling with man is represented in type and shadow of Feast of Tabernacles.

So Jesus' death and resurrection are part of a grand tapestry. Know that I am not trying to predict His coming or say definitively that these things will happen just so, but if the first part of His life mirrored the feasts we have good reason to believe His return will too.

To be a little more direct concerning your question I would cite this verse:

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

A Christian Brother

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Re: a Qustion about the Sabbath.
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2010, 08:40:02 AM »
Hi,
you have said some very interesting things there. All make perfect sense to me!

What has prompted my question is the truth that Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week - we see this as the Lords day. The day of Pentecost was also on the first day of the week.

Why couldn't these have been on the Sabbath day? This could have been the case by Jesus being crucified a day earlier. Perhaps that is a tough question. I am wandering if there is significance, for it may have marked the passing of one Covenant to another - the one we now have.

God bless.

resistingrexmundi

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Re: a Qustion about the Sabbath.
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2010, 10:48:22 AM »
The reason Pentecost was on the first day is because it is a feast. As such you can't have it on the Sabbath because you are fasting. But if you are looking for the point at which the New Covenant was instituted I think here would be it:

Mar 14:23   And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave [it] to them: and they all drank of it. 

Mar 14:24   And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. 
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Peter

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Re: a Qustion about the Sabbath.
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2010, 11:20:14 AM »
Some of this is discussed on the Sunday worship thread too.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=579.0

Best thing for the folks you are discussing these things with is to give them a link to "Former SDA" folks. Though it isn't likely to make you popular.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=24.0

A Christian Brother

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Re: a Qustion about the Sabbath.
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2010, 06:50:03 PM »
Thanks very much both.
I think I might be putting a significance to something when there isn't really any.

Something I have given them is a link to a video on Youtube. Made by one Peter Waldo. Very well put together it is too I may add.

I'll check those links out.

Thanks again.

God Bless

Peter

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Re: a Qustion about the Sabbath.
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2010, 08:23:35 PM »
Thanks very much both.
I think I might be putting a significance to something when there isn't really any.

Something I have given them is a link to a video on Youtube. Made by one Peter Waldo. Very well put together it is too I may add.

I'll check those links out.

Thanks again.

God Bless

I imagine you mean this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_nKSUwvf6g
It is someone else's video that I uploaded so I could use it as a "video response" to the Messianic "your going to burn in hell if you worship Christ on Sunday" crowd. I credited the originator on the video. Chatted with him. Good guy.

A Christian Brother

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Re: a Qustion about the Sabbath.
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2010, 08:46:12 PM »
I imagine you mean this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_nKSUwvf6g
It is someone else's video that I uploaded so I could use it as a "video response" to the Messianic "your going to burn in hell if you worship Christ on Sunday" crowd. I credited the originator on the video. Chatted with him. Good guy.

yeah. That's the one. Excellent video. I must admit i didn't notice the credit.

My argument that I have been putting forward is this.

Since the day of Pentecost, believers have become the temple of God. So shouldn't we consider every day as being Holy? We can now rest in the Lord any day.  Sabbath fulfilled even if we do commemorate the Lord's day on the first day of the week. At the end of the day (no pun intended) as I see it, no day is holier than we ourselves are prepared to be - with God's help that is.

God Bless you Peter.

« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 08:47:52 PM by A Christian Brother »

Peter

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Re: a Qustion about the Sabbath.
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2010, 06:41:57 AM »
I imagine you mean this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_nKSUwvf6g
It is someone else's video that I uploaded so I could use it as a "video response" to the Messianic "your going to burn in hell if you worship Christ on Sunday" crowd. I credited the originator on the video. Chatted with him. Good guy.

yeah. That's the one. Excellent video. I must admit i didn't notice the credit.

My argument that I have been putting forward is this.

Since the day of Pentecost, believers have become the temple of God. So shouldn't we consider every day as being Holy? We can now rest in the Lord any day.  Sabbath fulfilled even if we do commemorate the Lord's day on the first day of the week. At the end of the day (no pun intended) as I see it, no day is holier than we ourselves are prepared to be - with God's help that is.

God Bless you Peter.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Romans says pretty much the same thing about unclean food. If you come to believe something is unclean, then for you, it is unclean.

Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [there is] nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean.

resistingrexmundi

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Re: a Qustion about the Sabbath.
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2010, 08:33:24 AM »
It seems the reason these things are such hang ups for Messianics and SDA's is because they have not been able to look beyond the letter of the Law to the Spirit of the Law.

For instance the OT law states that an Israelite may not touch the carcass of any unclean animal.

Lev 5:2 Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether [it be] a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and [if] it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.

But also commands the use of blue and purple all throughout the Law.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=blue&t=KJV

How do you think this dye was made? Snails.

As dye in Judaism
 
Some wool dipped in tekhelet solution, from the Hexaplex trunculus, turning blue in the sunlight outside P'til Tekhelet in Israel.The Hebrew Bible mentions a specific blue dye, called Tekhelet (Hebrew: ?????????, pronounced [t???ele?]) for use in the Priestly garments as well in the layman's tzitzit, the formal tassels or fringes of clothing, which some believe refers to the indigo dye from the Hexaplex trunculus when kept in the sun.[2]

Similarly, the Hebrew Bible also mentions a specific purple dye, called argaman (Hebrew: ??????????? [?a??o?mon]), which refers to the purple color this same dye produces when kept in the shade.

That is, research by Otto Elsner (Shenker College of Fibers, Ramat Gan, Israel) and Ehud Spaneir (Haifa University, Haifa, Israel) showed that by performing what is commonly referred to as "vat dyeing" based on the dyestuff from the trunculus, they could achieve colors varying from blue to purple depending on exposure to the sun when the dye solution was in its leuco (reduced) state. This phenomenon was attributed to the dyestuff being composed of indigo, mono-bromo-indigo and di-bromo-indigo.[citation needed] DiBromo-Indigo presents itself as purple whereas Indigo is blue. It was demonstrated that when the reduced solution of trunculus dye is exposed to sunlight, the UV-rays from the sun act to break the bromine bonds such that when oxidation occurs following the removal of the dyed fabric from the solution, pure indigo bonds to the wool, while the bromine atoms are left in the vat.

This feature of final color varying according to exposure to the sun was indeed known by the ancients, as noted in the writings of Vitruvius (1 c. BCE), “Purple exceeds all colors in costliness and superiority of its delightful effect. It is obtained from a marine shellfish. ...It has not the same shade in all the places where it is found, but is naturally qualified by the course of the sun”.[3]

What is fascinating about that? Only that snails aren't clean by biblical standards. So either someone was confused here, though I doubt it, or God understood there is meaning behind the letter of the law. Something Jesus understood and expounded upon.

Mar 7:15   There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

A Christian Brother

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Re: a Qustion about the Sabbath.
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2010, 02:42:14 PM »
It seems the reason these things are such hang ups for Messianics and SDA's is because they have not been able to look beyond the letter of the Law to the Spirit of the Law.
.....

I stated that in one of the posts.
I began to get the impression from them that holiness is thought to be over there, or in something else.

I am however convinced that they are Christians - just confused ones.


resistingrexmundi

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Re: a Question about the Sabbath.
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2010, 02:20:08 AM »
The Messianics I have no problem with joining in hand in hand as a fellow brother or sister in Christ. SDAs however follow the teachings of the false prophetess Ellen White. They have other heretical teachings that keep me at a distance as well. Suffice it to say that I will not sacrafice truth on the alter of tolerance just so I don't ruffle their feathers. Neither should you. I know you don't wish to insult them or seem disrespectful but if they are in err it is better to be direct and say as much. Jesus certainly had no issue doing that to the Pharisees.
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

A Christian Brother

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Re: a Question about the Sabbath.
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2010, 05:16:53 AM »
The Messianics I have no problem with joining in hand in hand as a fellow brother or sister in Christ. SDAs however follow the teachings of the false prophetess Ellen White. They have other heretical teachings that keep me at a distance as well. Suffice it to say that I will not sacrafice truth on the alter of tolerance just so I don't ruffle their feathers. Neither should you. I know you don't wish to insult them or seem disrespectful but if they are in err it is better to be direct and say as much. Jesus certainly had no issue doing that to the Pharisees.

I have pointed out to them that, as I see it, Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the Prophets, and prophesy is a gift of the Holy spirit; therefore there will be no more prophets after Christ.
I do not know what they teach exactly, so I will need to look in to what these other heretic teachings are.

God Bless.

resistingrexmundi

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Re: a Question about the Sabbath.
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2010, 05:25:00 AM »
Jesus is the fulfillment of the Prophets in that everything they prophesied, every turning point in human history, was to set the stage for His coming.

Quote
I have pointed out to them that, as I see it, Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the Prophets, and prophesy is a gift of the Holy spirit; therefore there will be no more prophets after Christ.
I do not know what they teach exactly, so I will need to look in to what these other heretic teachings are.

If that were the case then John the revelator would have been a false Prophet. My comment about Ellen White was aimed at her false prophecy. Not the fact that she came after Christ.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=ellen+white+sda+cult&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8 Here is a page Pete provided in another post detailing more of the things I mentioned.

God bless you too.
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

A Christian Brother

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Re: a Question about the Sabbath.
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2010, 07:01:56 AM »
Jesus is the fulfillment of the Prophets in that everything they prophesied, every turning point in human history, was to set the stage for His coming.

Quote
I have pointed out to them that, as I see it, Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the Prophets, and prophesy is a gift of the Holy spirit; therefore there will be no more prophets after Christ.
I do not know what they teach exactly, so I will need to look in to what these other heretic teachings are.

If that were the case then John the revelator would have been a false Prophet. My comment about Ellen White was aimed at her false prophecy. Not the fact that she came after Christ.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=ellen+white+sda+cult&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8 Here is a page Pete provided in another post detailing more of the things I mentioned.

God bless you too.

The prophesies from John in Revelation came through the Holy Spirit. The Book of Revelation tells us that John was resting in Spirit.

Revelation 1:10
10 On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,

I don't think John went about claiming himself to be a prophet. This the difference.

As soon as I read on the SDA website that Ellen G White was seen as God's endtime messenger, alarm bells started ringing.
Thanks for the link. I'll be checking that out.

God Bless






Peter

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Re: a Question about the Sabbath.
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2010, 07:22:01 AM »
Jesus is the fulfillment of the Prophets in that everything they prophesied, every turning point in human history, was to set the stage for His coming.

Quote
I have pointed out to them that, as I see it, Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the Prophets, and prophesy is a gift of the Holy spirit; therefore there will be no more prophets after Christ.
I do not know what they teach exactly, so I will need to look in to what these other heretic teachings are.

If that were the case then John the revelator would have been a false Prophet. My comment about Ellen White was aimed at her false prophecy. Not the fact that she came after Christ.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=ellen+white+sda+cult&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8 Here is a page Pete provided in another post detailing more of the things I mentioned.

God bless you too.

The prophesies from John in Revelation came through the Holy Spirit. The Book of Revelation tells us that John was resting in Spirit.

Revelation 1:10
10 On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,

Where do you see the word "resting" used? It says he was IN the Spirit. It is through that verse that we understand that he is beginning a prophetic vision. Like Daniel's dream, for example.
John was the last prophet, and wrote perhaps the longest prophecy, in about 95 AD.

I don't think John went about claiming himself to be a prophet. This the difference.

As soon as I read on the SDA website that Ellen G White was seen as God's endtime messenger, alarm bells started ringing.
Thanks for the link. I'll be checking that out.

God Bless

Certainly not the only false prophet
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=80.0
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm

The 19th century brought us

Mary Baker Eddy - Christian Science
Joseph Smith - LDS Mormon
Charles Taze Russell - Jehovah's Witness
Ellen White - SDA Seventh Day Adventists
John Nelson Darby - dispensationalism futurism
Westcott and Hort - wrote corrupt 19th century minority Greek text that is the basis of the majority of modern bible versions.

The 19th century also brought us:
Madame Blavatsky - Theosophical Society - satanist acquaintence of Westcott and Hort

Not restricted to the 19th century the ecclesia also suffered:
Constantine - Roman Catholicism - 3rd-4th century
Ribera - futurist doctrine creator and seed for Darby's doctrine 16th century
Alcazar - preterist doctrine 17th century
Manuel de Lacunza - middle man between Ribera and Darby 18th century

2Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

A Christian Brother

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Re: a Question about the Sabbath.
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2010, 07:47:22 AM »
I think I will see if I can find out more on these cults.

I have just checked this out after following the link, provided by resistingrexmundi, which is alarming:

http://www.babylonforsaken.com/adventist.html


Peter

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Re: a Question about the Sabbath.
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2010, 08:06:20 AM »
I think I will see if I can find out more on these cults.

I have just checked this out after following the link, provided by resistingrexmundi, which is alarming:

http://www.babylonforsaken.com/adventist.html



I just expanded and embellished with links

The 19th century brought us

Mary Baker Eddy - Christian Science
Joseph Smith - LDS Mormon
Charles Taze Russell - Jehovah's Witness
William Miller - The Millerites
Ellen White - SDA Seventh Day Adventists
Edward Irving - Irvingites
John Nelson Darby - dispensationalism futurism Borrowed from Irving and bequeathed to C.I. Scofield of the Scofield annotated Bible. (Dr. Harry Ironside on futurism)
Westcott and Hort - wrote corrupt 19th century minority Greek text that is the basis of the majority of modern bible versions.
United Oneness Pentecostal Church - Charles Parham - a few individuals 19th and 20th century
Pope Pius IX - 1854 dogma of the "immaculate conception"
The 19th century also brought us:
Madame Blavatsky - Theosophical Society - satanist acquaintence of Westcott and Hort

Not restricted to the 19th century the ecclesia also suffered:
Constantine - Roman Catholicism - 3rd-4th century, 13th century dogma of auricular confession, 1950 dogma of the "assumption of Mary", RCC style doctrine of apostolic succession, transubstantiation, infallibility of papal decree, and on and on.

Ribera - futurist doctrine creator and seed for Darby's doctrine 16th century
Alcazar - preterist doctrine 17th century
Manuel de Lacunza - middle man between Ribera and Darby 18th century

2Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm#cults

A Christian Brother

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Re: a Question about the Sabbath.
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2010, 12:19:06 PM »
I just expanded and embellished with links

Yes. you did Peter. My apologies, I did not intend to appear rude. I shall be looking further in to each of those.
What actually made me thing "cults" was I noticed Victor Paul Wierwille had not been mentioned - though perhaps the Way International has become a bit of a non runner.

You have been a great help. For which I thank you very much.  :)

God Bless

Peter

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Re: a Question about the Sabbath.
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2010, 01:19:35 PM »
I just expanded and embellished with links

Yes. you did Peter. My apologies, I did not intend to appear rude. I shall be looking further in to each of those.
What actually made me thing "cults" was I noticed Victor Paul Wierwille had not been mentioned - though perhaps the Way International has become a bit of a non runner.

You have been a great help. For which I thank you very much.  :)

God Bless
I was simply stating "I just expanded and embellished with links" and nothing more.
I did it to make perusal of the subject easier for anyone interested.
Absolutely no reason for apologies, nor did I think you were rude. Perhaps you misunderstood something.