Author Topic: PM chat with ayamen1 on Hagar, Abraham & Ishmael  (Read 12117 times)

Peter

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PM chat with ayamen1 on Hagar, Abraham & Ishmael
« on: April 11, 2010, 06:49:40 AM »
Though ayamen1 registered in the forum he has so far been a little too shy to post in here and still prefers the dark alley of personal messaging. Ayamen1 words in the following designated within [[[[[ ]]]]]]
I added maps to the - otherwise copy and pasted - conversation as an aid.

Here's an amusing video of Paran on his channel that he felt compelled to remove my truthful and straightforward comments from.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxD_UpGHd1Q

[[[[Hey

a contradiction in your holy bible in Hajer story

genesis (21:14-18)
"She cast the child under one of the shrubs."
These verses suggest that Ishmael was an infant when his father left him, yet according to Gen.17:25 and Gen.21:5-8 he was about 16 years old. It must have been tough for poor Hagar to carry Ishmael on her shoulder and to then "cast him under one of the shrubs."

How old was ishmael ? infant or 13

islam says infant when he left him in mecca

but your bible has the truth in vers 21:14:18

and lies in Gen.17:25 and Gen.21:5-8

(21:9) "Sarah saw the son of Hagar mocking."
What did Sarah see?
this is another lies in your holy bible .
ishmael was infant . when he was left in mecca , Isac was not born at that time .

peace]]]]

Peter

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Re: PM chat with ayamen1
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2010, 06:50:44 AM »
[[[[islam says infant when he left him in mecca ]]]]

Then please explain how Abraham and Ishmael were transported from Israel (Beersheba) across a thousand miles across unknown, untraveled, barren desert wasteland to Mecca, so many hundreds of years before the first caravan route was established along the red sea, and well over a thousand years before Mecca was ever founded.

Peter

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Re: PM chat with ayamen1
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2010, 06:51:24 AM »
[[[genesis (21:14-18)
"She cast the child under one of the shrubs."
These verses suggest that Ishmael was an infant when ......]]]]

That's what they suggest to someone that puts effort into misunderstanding. A mother could carry a young teenager for a little while after he had reached the point of thirsting to death. Don't forget that Hagar was Sarah's slave so she would not be a weak woman with all the domestic chores she may have been assigned.

[[[[......... his father left him, yet according to Gen.17:25 and Gen.21:5-8 he was about 16 years old. It must have been tough for poor Hagar to carry Ishmael on her shoulder ........]]]]

This doesn't need to mean more than leaving with his hand on her shoulder.

[[[[[....... and to then "cast him under one of the shrubs."

How old was ishmael ? infant or 13

islam says infant when he left him in mecca ]]]]

Indeed it does. So tell me. How did Abraham and Ishmael travel across a thousand miles of barren desert, hundreds of years before anybody else in history ever did?

[[[[but your bible has the truth in vers 21:14:18]]]]

Peter

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Re: PM chat with ayamen1
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2010, 07:01:02 AM »
[[[Do you belive in your bible ,
this was mentiened in you bible , and the story of ZamZam water , which we have it until now . Plus Maqam Ibrahim and Hijer Ishmael is still there until now in Mecca . and the Safa and Maewa is still there as archecological eviedance .
so please answer my questions
That's what is your bible said ,
contradiction in your holy bible in Hajer story

genesis (21:14-18)
"She cast the child under one of the shrubs."
These verses suggest that Ishmael was an infant when his father left him, yet according to Gen.17:25 and Gen.21:5-8 he was about 16 years old. It must have been tough for poor Hagar to carry Ishmael on her shoulder and to then "cast him under one of the shrubs."

How old was ishmael ? infant or 16


(21:9) "Sarah saw the son of Hagar mocking."
What did Sarah see?

your bible scribes and rabbies distorted this story and corrupted it to hide truth about ishmael and glorify Issac . but allah exposed their lies in the quran .
please answer this contradiction ?]]]]]

Peter

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Re: PM chat with ayamen1
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2010, 07:03:39 AM »
[[[[[why not , Abrahim travelled from Iraq to palastine then to Eygpt
so how he can not go to Mecca or Becca .]]]]]

Peter

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Re: PM chat with ayamen1
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2010, 07:04:06 AM »
[[[[Do you belive in your bible ,
this was mentiened in you bible , and the story of ZamZam water , which we have it until now . Plus Maqam Ibrahim and Hijer Ishmael is still there until now in Mecca . and the Safa and Maewa is still there as archecological eviedance.]]]

Indeed they are. But as the evidence of what? Here is what the historical record tells us.

The ritual of running between Safa and Marwa is called the "Sa'ee". As mentioned earlier Muslims are taught that this ritual has something to do with Hagar and Ishmael. Besides the geographical impossibility of that view, the pre-Islamic Umra was a ritual of the Arabian Jinn religion that was devoted to the veneration of four idols.

In Islam Jinn are recognized as devils or demons. The idols that were placed on the two stones Safa and Marwa were two statues of Asaf and Naelah. They were the most venerated priests of the Arabian Jinn religion. Asaf was male and Naelah was female. Arabian mythology claims they committed fornication together inside the Kaabah and the gods transformed them into stone statues. (more) Though the idols were removed by Islam, to this day Muslims still run between Safa and Marwa, when practicing Sa'ee. (more)

Safa and Marwa were located on two hills near Mecca, close to the place where Abdel Mutaleb, the grandfather of Mohammed, dug the well of Zamzam and erected the two statues of Asaf and Naelah as the deities of the well. (more) As with so many of Mohammed's acquaintances and family members, his grandfather was very much into the Jinn religion and the occult. (more)

Marching around Safa and Marwa, was a ritual hated by most of Mohammeds companions because they well knew that the Hajj to Safa and Marwa was a pagan rite from Jahiliyah, or the pre-Islam period. In the Hadith we read:

Asem told us that he said to Uns bin Malek, a companion of Mohammed, You were hating to encompass around the Safa and Marwa. He answered, Yes, because it was one of the pagan rites of Jahiliyah until Allah gave a verse that the Safa and Marwa are the rites of Allah. If one makes the Hajj to the Kaabah, he must encompass them. The person has no sin when he encompass them. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 2, page 171)

Perhaps the reason that Allah "gave a verse" continuing this pagan ritual, is because Mohammed wanted to appease the two tribes who most practiced the Jinn religion, and whom Mohammed had pressed into picking up the sword, in the service of his "Allah". Their reward of course, was the property, wives, and children of the vanquished, as "spoils of war - booty". (the title of chapter 8 of the Quran) (more)

"Even Ibn Abbas, the cousin of Mohammed, and the most authoritative reporter of his Hadith, speaks of encompassing the Safa and Marwa as was the custom of the people of Jahiliyah, meaning the pagan Arabians before Islam. His speech is reported in Sahih al-Bukhari." [xl][40] (more)

The tribes of Oas and Khazraj began their Umra Hajj by kissing copies of the statues which were placed on the shore opposite Mecca. They were to walk seven times between these two rocks, then return to Mecca to kiss the two statues of Asaf and Naelah.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1QPjbzdnlo

Peter

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Re: PM chat with ayamen1
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2010, 07:06:55 AM »
[[[[[(21:9) "Sarah saw the son of Hagar mocking."
What did Sarah see? ]]]]

Just what is says. Sarah saw Ishmael mocking Isaac. That's when she declared that she would not allow Ishmael to be heir with her son Isaac and told Abraham to throw them out.

God Himself confirmed that was the right thing to do.

[[[[your bible scribes and rabbies distorted this story and corrupted it to hide truth about ishmael and glorify Issac.]]]]

All you've presented so far is false presumption.

[[[[ but allah exposed their lies in the quran . ]]]]

I see. So where is Hagar or Sarah mentioned in the Quran?

Why are you still such a coward? Why do you still prefer to hide in this dark alley even though you are registered in the forum?
The reason is so that you can run away from the questions that I ask you.

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Re: PM chat with ayamen1
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2010, 07:07:26 AM »
[[[[why not , Abrahim travelled from Iraq to palastine then to Eygpt
so how he can not go to Mecca or Becca .]]]]

Haven't you ever looked at a map?
Abraham's travels were in the fertile crescent. A place where there are rivers, pastures, and settlements.

Where Mecca was eventually built in the 4th century AD was A THOUSAND MILES across barren, untraveled and unknown desert from where Abraham ever was. There was NO OVERLAND TRAVEL from NW Arabia to southern Arabia until around the 10 century BC.
Even then Mecca only gets about 1/10 the rainfall that even Yemen gets so Mecca never had pasture. That's why it was considered by all of the historians who wrote about it, as being UNINHABITABLE, until well into the Christian era.

PLEASE look at the maps. What you are suggesting regarding Abraham is a physical, geographical impossibility. At the following link is a map of Abraham's travels as well as a map of Israel and Arabia.

http://petewaldo.com/hajj_umra.htm





Peter

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Re: PM chat with ayamen1
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2010, 07:08:15 AM »
Once Ishmael was collapsing from thirsting to death, Hagar would have only had to carry him a few feet to realize she couldn't continue on that way, and so cast him in the shade of a shrub.

Please look at the maps now.
http://petewaldo.com/hajj_umra.htm#abraham_travels

Peter

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Re: PM chat with ayamen1
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2010, 07:08:59 AM »
Additionally, putting Ishmael on Hagar's "shoulder" could also describe Abraham transferring the burden of raising Ishmael, and instead assigning the burden of raising him, for Hagar to "shoulder".

You have unanswered questions.

"your bible scribes and rabbies distorted this story and corrupted it to hide truth about ishmael and glorify Issac . but allah exposed their lies in the quran ."

Where is Hagar mentioned in the Quran?

Please explain how they were the first to travel across a thousand miles of barren desert, only to arrive at, and stay in, one of the most environmentally hostile places on earth.

http://petewaldo.com/hajj_umra.htm#abraham_travels


Peter

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Re: PM chat with ayamen1
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2010, 07:09:38 AM »
[[[[ishmael was infant . when he was left in mecca , Isac was not born at that time.]]]]

So then why would Abraham abandon his only son in Mecca?

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Re: PM chat with ayamen1
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2010, 07:10:30 AM »
[[[ok don't make it to work in your bible , lies exposed . her child who was 16 crying and God heared his crying ? dose not make any since .
he was infant crying not a child 16 years old
and God said , will rise from him great nation ?
where is this nation ?
the story of hajer mentiened in details in Sahih Hadith. the story of building Kaaba and mecca in the Quran
who is the holy man from Paran with 10000 saints
please the truth is very clear , but muslim haters don't like the truth
I will try to put this topic in your fourm
peace]]]]]

Peter

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Re: PM chat with ayamen1
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2010, 07:11:16 AM »
[[[[[I will try to put this topic in your fourm ]]]]]

I would appreciate that very much. It would make things far easier.

Peter

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Re: PM chat with ayamen1
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2010, 07:11:54 AM »
[[[[by order from God .
, not Sarah saw him moking Isac .
Ok I have to go to work now
see you later
peace]]]]

Peter

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Re: PM chat with ayamen1 re Hagar, Abraham & Ishmael
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2010, 07:31:31 AM »
[[[Ok I have to go to work now
see you later
peace]]]]

I took the liberty of copy and pasting our conversation into the forum.
Please join me there and we can review points that each of us missed.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1256.0

Peter

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Re: PM chat with ayamen1
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2010, 07:50:36 AM »
[[[ok don't make it to work in your bible , lies exposed . her child who was 16 crying and God heared his crying ? dose not make any since .
he was infant crying not a child 16 years old

Where does the Bible say Ishmael was crying?

Gen 21:16 And she went, and sat her down over against [him] a good way off, as it were a bowshot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against [him], and lift up her voice, and wept.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=21&v=16&t=KJV#16

Even if Ishmael had been the one crying, are you suggesting that a 16 year old boy that was dying of thirst, would somehow necessarily be incapable of crying? Have you noticed the effort you are putting into MISunderstanding? In general, boys and men of all ages (perhaps except sociopaths) can cry.

[[[[ishmael was infant . when he was left in mecca , Isac was not born at that time.]]]]

So then why would Abraham abandon his only son in Mecca?

Since you believe Abraham made the - as yet unexplained by you - trip to Mecca, when Ishmael was a baby - and an only child - why would Abraham want to abandon his only son?

Now, about that THOUSAND MILE walk across uninhabited untraveled desert most of a thousand years before the first caravan route was established along the Red Sea. How did Hagar and Ishmael walk from Israel to Mecca so many hundreds of years before anyone else in history did?

Perhaps something more secular. How about Wikipedia on "Ancient Towns in Saudi Arabia"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Towns_in_Saudi_Arabia


Peter

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Re: PM chat with ayamen1
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2010, 07:56:26 AM »
please the truth is very clear , but muslim haters don't like the truth
I will try to put this topic in your fourm
peace]]]]]

The reason my life is devoted to helping Muslims overcome the false prophet Mohammed is an expression of my love for Muslims, not hate, my friend.
Regarding truth,

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Peter

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Re: PM chat with ayamen1 on Hagar, Abraham & Ishmael
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2010, 02:48:40 PM »
genesis (21:14-18)
"She cast the child under one of the shrubs."
These verses suggest that Ishmael was an infant when his father left him, yet according to Gen.17:25 and Gen.21:5-8 he was about 16 years old. It must have been tough for poor Hagar to carry Ishmael on her shoulder and to then "cast him under one of the shrubs."

How old was ishmael ? infant or 13

Folks sometimes to make hay through English version translations, without an effort to understand.
Today I looked at a Hebrew interlinear and found
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/gen21.pdf

and-flask-of waters and-he-is-giving to Hagar placing on shoulder-of-her and the-boy and-he-is-sending-away-her

It seems pretty clear that the bread, and the water, is placed on the shoulder of both Hagar and Ishmael.

and-she-is-flinging the-boy under the-shrubs

Whether Ishmael was collapsing against her, and she swung him around and down into the shade under shrubs, or even if she was carrying the boy as he was thirsting to death (she was, after all, a servant so she would have likely been muscular from the work) there are lots of ways to reasonably envision this account.

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Peter

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Re: PM chat with ayamen1 on Hagar, Abraham & Ishmael
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2011, 10:57:04 AM »
Additionally from the Hebrew English interlinear

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/gen21.pdf

and-he-is-rising-early Abraham in-the-morning and-he-is-taking bread and-flask-of waters and-he-is-giving to Hagar placing on shoulder-of-her and the-boy and-he-is-sending-away-her

It's obvious that the bread, and the water, is placed on the shoulders of both Hagar and Ishmael.

and-she-is-flinging the-boy under the-shrubs

and she cast
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
07993 shalak {shaw-lak}
a primitive root; TWOT - 2398; v
AV - cast 77, cast out 15, cast away 11, cast down 11, cast forth 4,
cast off 2, adventured 1, hurl 1, misc 3; 125
1) to throw, cast, hurl, fling
1a) (Hiphil)
1a1) to throw, cast, throw away, cast off, shed, cast down
1a2) to cast (lots) (fig)
1b) (Hophal)
1b1) to be thrown, be cast
1b2) to be cast forth or out
1b3) to be cast down
1b4) to be cast (metaph)

Whether Ishmael was collapsing against her, and she slung him around and down into the shade under shrubs, or even if she was carrying the boy as he was thirsting to death (she was after all Sarah's servant, so she would have likely been muscular from the work) there are lots of ways to reasonably envision this account. Even simply casting him out of her sight, or casting him away.

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1557.msg6525#msg6525