Ishamelites dissapearance

[Phill]

I have read how you mention that the Ishmaelites have "dissapeared". Can you assist in defining how this came about ?.

Did they actually dissapear all together...ie extinct/died out, or have the descendants of Ishmael branched off to such an extent that the waters are to muddy to follow them or who they are today ?.

God said that he would bless Ishmael and make him a great nation, although we all know he has no part of the promise for Israel. But he did say he would prosper greatly and be un-numbered like sand (or something like that).

[Peter]

I have read how you mention that the Ishmaelites have "dissapeared". Can you assist in defining how this came about ?.

Did they actually dissapear all together...ie extinct/died out, or have the descendants of Ishmael branched off to such an extent that the waters are to muddy to follow them or who they are today ?.

I had pretty much parroted what many say about Arabs being the seed of Ishmael, until I read Dr. Amari's book. I want to enter portions of a chapter when I get a chance that answer to exactly your question.
The 12 tribes from Ishmael's sons inhabited the norther Sinai and into the top corner of NW Arabia and if anything moved up into the fertile crescent from there. They wound up inhabiting an intersection of 3 trade routes that appealed to the Arabs who moved in around them and so they were either absorbed by them or exiled by them. There OT eventually falls silent on the Ishmaelites.

God said that he would bless Ishmael and make him a great nation, although we all know he has no part of the promise for Israel. But he did say he would prosper greatly and be un-numbered like sand (or something like that).

Gen 22 15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,   16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son]:   17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

So that was a promise to Abraham and his seed, which, since the covenants are passed to Isaac would apply to his seed.

Gen 17:20   And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Gen 16:12   And he will be a wild man; his hand [will be] against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Regarding the seed of Ishmael and the 12 tribes, at one point the OT describes them as being as numerous as locusts, and as being quite cantankerous, but then having disappeared from scripture this may be previously fulfilled prophecy.


If you ever need to do a search (like "sand" that I just used to recover that verse) or phrase or something these are my favorite links.
This one is KJV by default
http://www.blueletterbible.org/
This one has Strong's definitions and Greek-English interlinear, but unfortunately it is NKJV by defaust (but easy to switch)
http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

[Patricio81]

I am also very interested in this area as well,I have heard arguments from various sides as well. I have found a site regarding the tribes of Ishmael.

This list is given to us in Genesis 25 and is later repeated in I Chronicles 1:29-33. "And these are their generations: the first-born of Ishmael, Nebaioth, then Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, Mishma, and Dumah, Massa, Hadad, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. These are the sons of Ishmael."

http://nabataea.net/12tribes.html

New Archaeology points to Arabic is of Nabaten origin. Is there any information regarding all of the tribes being extinct?
I remember also that Esau married an Ishmaelite as well (one of his wifes).
However since islam has mix and mingled people was this taken into account as well??

[PeteWaldo]

I am also very interested in this area as well,I have heard arguments from various sides as well. I have found a site regarding the tribes of Ishmael.

This list is given to us in Genesis 25 and is later repeated in I Chronicles 1:29-33. "And these are their generations: the first-born of Ishmael, Nebaioth, then Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, Mishma, and Dumah, Massa, Hadad, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. These are the sons of Ishmael."

http://nabataea.net/12tribes.html

New Archaeology points to Arabic is of Nabaten origin. Is there any information regarding all of the tribes being extinct?
I remember also that Esau married an Ishmaelite as well (one of his wifes).
However since islam has mix and mingled people was this taken into account as well??

http://www.petewaldo.com/12_sons_tribes_ishmael.htm

Here's where the Ishmaelites dwelt, according to scripture (not within 1,000 kilometers of where Mecca was eventually settled over 2,000 years later):

"... from Havilah unto Shur, that [is] before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria..."



The reason of course being because they tended flocks so they needed the pasture and water that the fertile crescent provided:



As opposed to the harsh Arabian desert (photo Syrian desert):



I believe any genetic relation to Ishmael would be found in the Arabic peoples. Certainly their Islamic contingent's behavior is just as prophesied:

Genesis 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand [will be] against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
http://www.petewaldo.com/children_flesh.htm

Certainly well described as the "children of the flesh" being in the bondage to prostrating toward an Arabian pagan black stone idol five times a day, while praying in the "vain repetitions of the heathen" (as scripture refers to salat), in the names of the Arabian pagan deity "Allah" and his "messenger" Muhammad. Even obligated to travel to that black stone idol and march around the Kaaba that houses it, just as the Arabian pagan's did long before Muhammad was ever born.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

However since Muhammad's tribe the Quraish was from Yemen (who earlier arrived there crossing the strait from Africa), and since there was no overland connection between southern and northern Arabia until about the 6th century BC, that would suggest that Muhammad - if he existed at all - was of Cushite or Hamite origin.