Revelation Chapter 9

[caracasmc]

Thanks guys for the replies.  I have read the book entirely and listened to many of his videos.  Even though I do come from a futurist background, I felt like Ellis' hermeneutic was good and that this interpretation was definitely valid.  Thus the reason I'm at this forum!  Lol.  

As you know, after a lifetime of interpreting something a certain way, those ideas don't always break easily.  So, as I've continued to study up on this, questions naturally began to emerge.  I'm thankful for a website like this where we can ask sincere questions and get real, detailed answers to help improve our understanding.

What is your (and Ellis') interpretation of Revelation 9:1-12 for instance.  According to Ellis' chronology, this has already happened since he places us presently after the sixth trumpet right before the 7th.  Rev 9:-12 is the 5th trumpet.

What are the locusts?  Spirits?
If spirits, what is the spiritual torment they are bringing?
How has the verse about men wanting to die but not being able to been fulfilled?
They are given power for 5 months.  How long would 5 months be in the natural?
What is the significance of the very detailed description of the locusts? (vs. 7-10)

Thank you guys for helping me understand these things and bringing clarity.

Blessings.  

[Peter]

 Please read the bifids and chiasms thread in this forum section first, to understand how Revelation and Daniel and several other books are written and organized.

I will just open here as I don't have a lot of time just now. This chapter is a parenthetic.

Here is a good video that, even though the guy is off doing his own thing otherwise, is quite in line with Ellis' view.
However that is the only chapter that videographer gets very right. Perhaps this also helps confirm the stand-alone nature of this chapter. But he nailed pretty well.

[edit 1-16-13] I noticed today there was a bad link in here. This is what was intended:
5th Trumpet - Rise of Islam and Mohammad, Pt. 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1Nhx-bf44Q
Here's part one, but he doesn't understand that Satan was bound at the cross.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRu1ol7nzbI
http://www.youtube.com/user/bibleortraditions?feature=watch [end edit]

(KJV) Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.   2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.   3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.   4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.   5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.   6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.   7 And the shapes of the locusts [were] like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads [were] as it were crowns like gold, and their faces [were] as the faces of men.   8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as [the teeth] of lions.   9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.   10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power [was] to hurt men five months.   11 And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.   12 One woe is past; [and], behold, there come two woes more hereafter.   13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,   14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.   15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.   16 And the number of the army of the horsemen [were] two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.   17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses [were] as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.   18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.   19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails [were] like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.   20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:   21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

[Peter]

(KJV) Revelation 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power [was] to hurt men five months.   11 And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.

It's thrilling to learn that 5 prophetic "months" is (5 x 30.44 average days in a solar or Julian month = 152.2 years) That's just about how long the Islamic First Jihad lasted!
(though the account below puts it at 154 years)

Power of the Sword

623 - Battle of Waddan
623 - Battle of Safwan
623 - Battle of Dul-Ashir
624 - Muhammad and converts begin raids on caravans to fund the movement.
624 - Zakat becomes mandatory
624 - Battle of Badr
624 - Battle of Bani Salim
624 - Battle of Eid-ul-Fitr and Zakat-ul-Fitr
624 - Battle of Bani Qainuqa
624 - Battle of Sawiq
624 - Battle of Ghatfan
624 - Battle of Bahran
625 - Battle of Uhud. 70 Muslims are killed.
625 - Battle of Humra-ul-Asad
625 - Battle of Banu Nudair
625 - Battle of Dhatur-Riqa
626 - Battle of Badru-Ukhra
626 - Battle of Dumatul-Jandal
626 - Battle of Banu Mustalaq Nikah
627 - Battle of the Trench
627 - Battle of Ahzab
627 - Battle of Bani Quraiza
627 - Battle of Bani Lahyan
627 - Battle of Ghaiba
627 - Battle of Khaibar
628 - Muhammad signs treaty with Quraish.
630 - Muhammad conquers Mecca.
630 - Battle of Hunsin.
630 - Battle of Tabuk
632 - Muhammad dies.
632 - Abu-Bakr, Muhammads father-in-law, along with Umar, begin a military move to enforce Islam in Arabia.
633 - Battle at Oman
633 - Battle at Hadramaut.
633 - Battle of Kazima
633 - Battle of Walaja
633 - Battle of Ulleis
633 - Battle of Anbar
634 - Battle of Basra,
634 - Battle of Damascus
634 - Battle of Ajnadin.
634 - Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph.
634 - Battle of Namaraq
634 - Battle of Saqatia.
635 - Battle of Bridge.
635 - Battle of Buwaib.
635 - Conquest of Damascus.
635 - Battle of Fahl.
636 - Battle of Yermuk.
636 - Battle of Qadsiyia.
636 - Conquest of Madain.
637 - Battle of Jalula.
638 - Battle of Yarmouk.
638 - The Muslims defeat the Romans and enter Jerusalem.
638 - Conquest of Jazirah.
639 - Conquest of Khuizistan and movement into Egypt.
641 - Battle of Nihawand
642 - Battle of Ray in Persia
643 - Conquest of Azarbaijan
644 - Conquest of Fars
644 - Conquest of Kharan.
644 - Umar is murdered. Othman becomes the Caliph.
647 - Conquest of the island of Cypress
644 - Uman dies and is succeeded by Caliph Uthman.
648 - Campaign against the Byzantines.
651 - Naval battle against the Byzantines.
654 - Islam spreads into North Africa
656 - Uthman is murdered. Ali become Caliph.
658 - Battle of Nahrawan.
659 - Conquest of Egypt
661 - Ali is murdered.
662 - Egypt falls to Islam rule.
666 - Sicily is attacked by Muslims
677 - Siege of Constantinople
687 - Battle of Kufa
691 - Battle of Deir ul Jaliq
700 - Sufism takes root as a sect of Islam
700 - Military campaigns in North Africa
702 - Battle of Deir ul Jamira
711 - Muslims invade Gibraltar
711 - Conquest of Spain
713 - Conquest of Multan
716 - Invasion of Constantinople
732 - Battle of Tours in France.
740 - Battle of the Nobles.
741 - Battle of Bagdoura in North Africa
744 - Battle of Ain al Jurr.
746 - Battle of Rupar Thutha
748 - Battle of Rayy.
749 - Battle of lsfahan
749 - Battle of Nihawand
750 - Battle of Zab
772 - Battle of Janbi in North Africa
777 - Battle of Saragossa in Spain

[Peter]

(KJV) Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.   2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

[caracasmc]

Wow..all of this is so interesting.  Thanks!

The video didn't mention the part about men wanting to die but not being able to.  Any ideas as to what that means?

Also there is a description in Daniel 11 commonly used in the futurist theory for the antichrist that says he will not be taken to women or have desire for women.  Muslims are very taken to women sexually at least.  They even expect the 72 virgins in heaven.  Is this talking about how they disregard women in public and consider them pretty much worthless?  Or is it talking about sexual desire as commonly interpreted?

[Peter]

Wow..all of this is so interesting.  Thanks!

The video didn't mention the part about men wanting to die but not being able to.  Any ideas as to what that means?

Ellis likened it to the bite of a scorpion. There is one variety that when it bites they call it the "7 day death" (or something like that) because the pain is so excruciating for those 7 days that you wish you were dead.
What's life like when a big band of reprobates marches their way into town, slaughters all the men and boys over 10 years old, steals everything they worked all their lives for, and sexually enslaves their wives and children? Most would most likely vastly prefer being dead.
Thus, also, the 1335 "days".  http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=83.msg216#msg216

[SAB]

Hi all,

I became a Christian in a church that taught the Historicist view. After some 20 years when I was no longer in that group I was examining its doctrines prayerfully. I knew that the locusts of Revelation 9 were believed to refer to Arab hordes under Mohammed so I simply prayed, "Lord, if the locusts are a reference to Islam could you confirm it?" Five days later in a secondhand bookstore I saw a National Geographic from August 1969 had an article about locusts. I thought it might hold a clue to the locusts of Revelation 9. It was an article about a great locust plague in 1967-8. On page 212 there was a map showing the spread of the plague. It was identical to a map I have in a history book about the spread of Islam - including the arrows that showed the advance of the locusts from Mecca across North Africa into Spain and another set of arrows going into Asia minor and east towards Pakistan. And to top it off on the same page the author quoted an Arabic verse where the locusts said to Mohammed, "We are the army of Allah, we produce 99 eggs; If the hundredth were complete, We would consume the whole world and all that is in it."

I thought if that isn't a confirmation of a direct prayer I don't know what is.

[Peter]

Hi SAB and welcome to the forum!

Hi all,

I became a Christian in a church that taught the Historicist view.

Did they hold the SDA kind of view that the pope/papacy, or Roman church, is antichrist and basically the whole negative part of Revelation?

 

After some 20 years when I was no longer in that group I was examining its doctrines prayerfully. I knew that the locusts of Revelation 9 were believed to refer to Arab hordes under Mohammed so I simply prayed, "Lord, if the locusts are a reference to Islam could you confirm it?" Five days later in a secondhand bookstore I saw a National Geographic from August 1969 had an article about locusts. I thought it might hold a clue to the locusts of Revelation 9. It was an article about a great locust plague in 1967-8. On page 212 there was a map showing the spread of the plague. It was identical to a map I have in a history book about the spread of Islam - including the arrows that showed the advance of the locusts from Mecca across North Africa into Spain and another set of arrows going into Asia minor and east towards Pakistan. And to top it off on the same page the author quoted an Arabic verse where the locusts said to Mohammed, "We are the army of Allah, we produce 99 eggs; If the hundredth were complete, We would consume the whole world and all that is in it."

I thought if that isn't a confirmation of a direct prayer I don't know what is.

That is very interesting. Though I don't believe there are any prophetic utterances within the texts of Islam (not that I am saying you suggested there are), because that would be suggesting they were divinely inspired.

The text quoted indicates that the presence of locusts preceded and followed Mohammed. Also exposes more of the "science" of the Quran. I just did a quick Yahoo search for the occasion, and the first site I clicked on states -
"Desert Locust females lay eggs in an egg pod primarily in sandy soils at a depth of 10-15 centimetres below the surface. A solitary female lays about 95-158 eggs whereas a gregarious female lays usually less than 80 eggs in an egg pod."
http://www.fao.org/ag/locusts/en/info/info/faq/

Once again, welcome to the forum SAB, and we look forward to chatting with you.

[SAB]

Hi Peter,

Yes they taught that the papacy was antichrist - though they were Pentecostal not SDA. I'm not sure what you mean by the negative part of Revelation.

I also don't believe there are prophetic utterances in Islam. The quote was from an Arab poet.

[Peter]

Hi Peter,

Yes they taught that the papacy was antichrist - though they were Pentecostal not SDA.

That's interesting. I was under the impression that most Pentecostals were futurists.
But then when I was a child I attended a Presbyterian Church that (I learned decades later) was futurist. Presbyterians are generally partial preterist.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by the negative part of Revelation.

Even when I wrote it I knew it was stupid, but I didn't take the time because I have been preoccupied with posting in Muslim forums, this morning.
By "negative" I meant the "beast" and "antichrist" and "false prophet" and all of the things opposite of Jesus Christ.
Not the blessed things like His coming etc.

I asked because the traditional continuous-historic context in which we all understand that Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled, has been tarred by groups with that Catholic bashing heresy, and I am afraid as a result some folks may believe that in order to have a continuous historic view, you have to believe the Roman Catholic church to be antichrist.

I also don't believe there are prophetic utterances in Islam. The quote was from an Arab poet.

[SAB]

Also interesting comparison between the locust and muslim is that locusts have two phases. In their solitary phase they are green and not troublesome but when numbers increase dramatically they have a gregarious phase. They change colour and become thick ravenous swarms.

I just googled it and what i found on the National Geographic site was rather interesting.

http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/bugs/locust.html

The desert locust is notorious. Found in Africa, the Middle East, and Asia, they inhabit some 60 countries and can cover one-fifth of Earth's land surface. Desert locust plagues may threaten the economic livelihood of one-tenth of the world's humans.

[SAB]

It seems to be pretty much explained here that the first woe is Islamic expansion after the death of Mohammed.

However I have been searching the site with little success about the next wave of Islamic aggression - that being the arrival of the Turks and the rise of the Ottoman Empire.

I always understood that to have been the fulfillment of the sixth trumpet of Revelation 9:13-21. With the symbol of the flooding Euphrates being Ottoman expansion. Thus the second woe was the Ottoman Empire - their stated objective was to conquer Europe and make it Islamic but they failed because they were hampered by internal corruption and were defeated when the West adopted technology and industry leading to superior weapons.

Then in Revelation 16:12 the drying up of the Euphrates representing Ottoman decline which made way for the kings of the East.

The collapse of the Ottoman Empire  in 1918 led to the emergence of independent Arab nations. (The kings of the East)

My theory is that the present rise of radical Islam with the stated objective of subjugating western civilization and world domination is the third woe. This is going to be worse than the first or the second. Now there are more than 30 million Muslims in Europe already - not to mention Indonesia and Malaysia. Time to anchor our faith firmly in Christ and prepare for the storm.

[Peter]

My theory is that the present rise of radical Islam ........

The only real "radicals" in Islam are those that parrot the dissimulation, or taqiyyah, that it is a religion of peace.
This is inconsistent with both the progressive revelation of the Quran and with Mohammed's example.
Those that blow things up, target innocent people for murder, and steal non-Muslim's stuff as you mentioned earlier in regard to credit card theft, are fundamentalists that GET Islam.

........ with the stated objective of subjugating western civilization and world domination is the third woe. This is going to be worse than the first or the second. Now there are more than 30 million Muslims in Europe already - not to mention Indonesia and Malaysia. Time to anchor our faith firmly in Christ and prepare for the storm.

Indeed bro.

[interpreter]

hi guys,

The trumpet prophesies expand on the great tribulation of WW II.

The fifth one describes the 5-month Winter War and Finland's defeat of the Great Whore, i.e., Moscow which sits on 7 hills and many waters (5 seas). The Soviet soldiers were ill-prepared for the bitter cold, and were tormented for 5 months by frostbite that stung like a scorpion.

The sixth trumpet prophecy decribes D-Day which brought about the defeat of Hitler and the third of the Earth that he controlled. 200 million horses were prepared (or manufactured) by four Allied nations (represented by the four angels) for release on 1 day on the beaches of Normandy. (The English Channel probably looked like the Euphrates to John, and the original Greek says 200 million horses, not horsemen). 

[resistingrexmundi]

hi guys,

The trumpet prophesies expand on the great tribulation of WW II.

The fifth one describes the 5-month Winter War and Finland's defeat of the Great Whore, i.e., Moscow which sits on 7 hills and many waters (5 seas). The Soviet soldiers were ill-prepared for the bitter cold, and were tormented for 5 months by frostbite that stung like a scorpion.

The sixth trumpet prophecy decribes D-Day which brought about the defeat of Hitler and the third of the Earth that he controlled. 200 million horses were prepared (or manufactured) by four Allied nations (represented by the four angels) for release on 1 day on the beaches of Normandy. (The English Channel probably looked like the Euphrates to John, and the original Greek says 200 million horses, not horsemen). 

Would you please expound on these premises? I am failing to see the connection.

[interpreter]

hi guys,

The trumpet prophesies expand on the great tribulation of WW II.

The fifth one describes the 5-month Winter War and Finland's defeat of the Great Whore, i.e., Moscow which sits on 7 hills and many waters (5 seas). The Soviet soldiers were ill-prepared for the bitter cold, and were tormented for 5 months by frostbite that stung like a scorpion.

The sixth trumpet prophecy decribes D-Day which brought about the defeat of Hitler and the third of the Earth that he controlled. 200 million horses were prepared (or manufactured) by four Allied nations (represented by the four angels) for release on 1 day on the beaches of Normandy. (The English Channel probably looked like the Euphrates to John, and the original Greek says 200 million horses, not horsemen).  

Would you please expound on these premises? I am failing to see the connection.

Hi my brother, may God bless you. This is indeed a good Christian forum as you promised, and I'm glad to be here. (I'm glad to be anywhere at my age).

OK. I will try to expand a bit on my posting without getting too lengthy.
First I hold the historicist view of the Revelation, that it began unfolding soon after John received it, and that we are now experiencing chapter 16.

And I hold that WW II was the great tribulation, and that Hitler was the "666" antichrist. His Third reich (or Third Reign  of Rome) was the third six of the 666 trilogy (with the pagan Rome of John's day being the original head # 6 of the beast, the Second Reich being the second six, and Hitler being the third head # 6). And he killed 6 million Jews and over 5 million Christians (God's two witnesses, and the only two worshippers found in the Temple of God). But the good guys always win. He was defeated by the 200 million horses that the Allies unleashed against him on D-Day.

And Moscow, the great whore who sits on 7 hills and many waters, and who ruled over many "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues" during WW II, was briefly alligned with Hitler the antiChrist before he turned on her. Anyhow she made the mistake of attacking the little nation of Finland in the Winter War of 1939-40, and was defeated by the little Christian nation in the coldest winter ever recorded there. The frostbite stung the atheist soldiers like a scorpian, and they called a truce after about 4 months (or parts of 5 months). The closest English eqivalent of Abaddon and Apollyon is Jack Frost. And yes, sometimes in Bible prophecy, a month turns out to be thirty years, and sometimes a month is a month.

Both the Finland/Soviet front and the beaches of Normandy, the focal points of trumpet prophecies 5 and 6, are pointed to by the starguide of chapter one which forms 21 vectors pointing to all the good things foretold.

Brother Barry

[Peter]

OK. I will try to expand a bit on my posting without getting too lengthy.
First I hold the historicist view of the Revelation, that it began unfolding soon after John received it, and that we are now experiencing chapter 16.

Many folks observe that Revelation and other books of the bible are repetitive rather than being strictly chronological.
Here's a thread that regards the source and nature of that repetition for your perusal.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1299.0

[interpreter]

OK. I will try to expand a bit on my posting without getting too lengthy.
First I hold the historicist view of the Revelation, that it began unfolding soon after John received it, and that we are now experiencing chapter 16.

Many folks observe that Revelation and other books of the bible are repetitive rather than being strictly chronological.
Here's a thread that regards the source and nature of that repetition for your perusal.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1299.0

Greetings  brother Pete,
How are you? I very much like your site, but I'm afraid I must respectively disagree with you this time. I see the vast majority of the Revelation as being chronological. But if on the other hand you're saying there is more than one antichrist, or one false prophet, then I have to agree with you. After all, the beast of the Revelation has many heads. And the great whore gave birth to other whores (i.e., atheist nations) as prophesied. And it can well be argued that there are many false prophets in the world today and they are becoming as numerous as the sand in the sea.

[ExMilitary]

Revelation 9 - the name of the Angel of the bottomless pit

Abaddon - Strong's G3: Definition 1d - The minister of death
Apollyon - Strong's G623: Defintion 1a - The Destroyer

Names of Allah:

Al-Mumeet - Name no. 62: The Creator of Death, The Destroyer

What I really find super interesting about all of this is that one of the Quranic verses used to support this name of Allah is 15:23.  Commentaries on this verse suggest that Muslims (as a whole) are the inheritors of all things (after death).  Islam believes the following: Muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael. Allah would make the descendants of Ishmael (hence through Muhammad) a great nation... and that they are the inheritors of all things.  This directly contradicts the idea in Isaiah 53, 65, Matthew 25:34, Ephesians 1:10-12, and Hebrews 1 that Yeshua, the descendant of Isaac, is the inheritor of all things and will share that inheritance with those who believe in the fact that (as Hebrews says) that Yeshua is the only begotten Son of God.

Here is the connection: The word abaddon is used in Psalm 88 in relation to "the sons of Korah".  Is it a coincidence that in Korah's rebellion against Moses and Aaron that he tried to inherit a royal priesthood that was not his?

Take into account this http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#christians_on_islam as well

[PeteWaldo]

I discovered and uploaded the following quotes to the Christian Eschatology.com website some time after my last post in this thread in 2010, but it has been a wonderful blessing to again recognize that we are running with those great men of God of the Reformation, which further confirms that it was the "church" that strayed off the reservation during the 20th century when the eschatologies of futurism and preterism came into vogue.

http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#christians_on_islam
Christians on Islam in Prophecy (URL)

Of Revelation chapter 9:  John Foxe who authored Foxe’s Book of Martyrs wrote that it is “clearer than light itself” as being a prophecy of the Muslim conquests.

Albert Barnes: “With surprising unanimity, commentators have agreed in regarding this to the empire of the Saracens (Muslims), or to the rise and the progress of the religion and the empire set up by Muhammed.”

W.B. Godbey: “This chapter is a thrilling description of the rise and progress of the Mohammedan wars.”

Of the locusts of Revelation 9:  Adam Clarke: “certainly agrees better with the Saracens than with any other people or nation” and “agrees very well with the troops of Mohammed.”

Matthew Henry: “the armies of the Mohamedan empire.”

John Wesley: “All this agrees with the slaughter which the Saracens made for a long time after Mahomet’s death.”

If the "church" could only hear them today, another Reformation could begin that would help us reach out to and rescue the 1.5 billion people that are in Satan's grip because of their faith in THE false prophet Muhammad alone, while rescuing our heirs from a future of prostrating toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca 5 times a day and rejecting the crucifixion of Christ and thus denying the shed blood of the Lamb of God that saves, while denying and blaspheming the Son of God.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/#muhammad_on_the_gospel