PeteWaldo (7 months ago)
Hi Kab....
I hold a continuous-historic view. The same view you hold for Old Testament prophecy.
The Greek word for "this" is also translated 32 times as "the same".
Additionally you presume that a metaphorical use of the term "generation" is not meant.
Most importantly how were the "times of the Gentiles" fulfilled in Jerusalem in 70 AD? The Romans whacked another 600,000 Jews in 132-135 AD. The Muslims marched in in 639. The Crusades, the British mandate..
The Jews regained control in 1967.
mo (2 weeks ago)
You speak of Luke 21:24. The "time of the Gentiles" refers to God using the Gentiles. We know that God makes nations rise and fall and that God uses non-believing nations to punish or humble Israel or fallen Israel. It is exactly the same concept in Genesis 15:15-16 about the "Amorites' measure of sin."
This all means that God foretold His people would suffer under Gentile force but that it would not last forever. In Genesis as well as Daniel/Revelation.
PeteWaldo (2 weeks ago)
So when were the "times of the Gentiles" in Jerusalem fulfilled?
mo (2 weeks ago)
70 AD. You see in context, Jesus had told His believer to leave Jersualem when "armies" surrounded it in Luke 21:24. We know this is Rome ruled by Titus in 70 AD from history. (Paralled with Matthew 24:15 we learn that this army was predicted to destroy Jerusalem by Daniel.)
PeteWaldo (2 weeks ago)
Armies surrounded Jerusalem on many occasions. A million Jews were killed in 70AD and the place busted up pretty good, but no Christians were killed. It would be hard to make a case that the "times of the Gentiles" in Jerusalem were fulfilled, since the Gentiles double-dipped and killed another 750,000 Jews less than 70 years later in the Bar-Kokhba revolt.
Your opinion may fit your doctrine, but it is out of sinc with historical reality, just as your dating of the book of Revelation likely is.
PeteWaldo (1 week ago)
Note I said likely.
Perhaps you date the book correctly.
pfrs. org/preterism/pret01. html
mo (2 weeks ago)
Can you tell me why Rome is known for it's 7 hills and the beast also has 7 hills? So what's wrong with my dating and history now? Hmm?
mo (2 weeks ago)
Your case of "many occassions" is lackluster here. Of course the Jews were massacred and were in war for centuries before and after 70 AD. That is not the point. The point is what Daniel and Revelation are talking about. And given the clues of Daniel and Revelation... THIS PARTICUALAR DESOLATION was the end of the Old Covenant as well as the establishment of the new. And I did nothing but use the bible to date the book. What did you use? And if 5 horns of the beast had fallen (cont.)
mo (2 weeks ago)
And if 5 of the 7 horns of the beast of Chapter 17 "HAD fallen" (past tense) then the beast was already alive and active (and past half-fallen at this point) so it has to be Rome and it's Caesars since the events of Revelation were "sooN" to take place and this beast was the one that conquered Greece. It's Rome all the way around. Even going back to the "seven hills" that she sits on. (cont.)
mo (2 weeks ago)
You're right. The Christians left Jerusalem in 70 AD because Jesus told them to in Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13. He said when they see the city surrounded to leave so they did. The destruction of Jerusalem was a sign to all that God was now with Jesus and not the physical land of Israel. God sent out ############ into all the world after it's fall. It was Exodus II.
PeteWaldo (1 week ago)
If one thought that God's interests lay more in the spiritual than the physical, and all the Christians were saved, then what got desolated in 70AD?
mo (1 week ago)
The temple. That is the entire point of Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13. Jesus says not one stone of the temple would remain in tact at the beginning of each chapter. And then again in Daniel 9:27 it is prophesied 600 years earlier. In fact, it was desolated twice. The first by Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the Greeks where they sacrificed a pig in the temple. Jesus himself says that this second desolation on Jerusalem was predicted in Daniel. (Matthew 24:15)
PeteWaldo (1 week ago)
But the "times of the Gentiles" can hardly be considered to have been fulfilled in 70 AD when the Romans came back and whacked another 750K Jews less than 70 years later.
In terms of desolation, what did Jerusalem look like by the early 1800s?
"Between 1827 and 1839, largely through British efforts, the population of Jerusalem rose from 550 to 5,500 and in all Palestine it topped 10,000 - the real beginning of the Jewish return to the Promised Land.
"A History of the Jews" - Paul Johnson
mo (1 week ago)
I have already answered this. So many things wrong with your understanding of the prophecy here.
Matthew 24:15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."
The temple was destroyed in 70 AD. You focus too much on Jewish people and Jewish land. That was not the prophecy. The prophecy was Jewish temple and Gentile armies.
PeteWaldo (1 week ago)
Mo, I'm always fascinated by folks so confident in their understanding of the figurative language of dreams and visions in prophecy, that rather than realizing differences are disagreements, actually suggest another is wrong, not even noticing the hermeneutically unsound glass house they occupy.
While ignoring comments, and pretending to have put effort into understanding others.
YouTube is your perfect venue, as accountability is impossible and confusion reigns, as comments drift away quickly.
mo (1 week ago)
Why are you so upset with me for answering each and every one of your questions? I've been respectful to you and have kept everything in context. If you can't handle the debate you don't have to continue it. Nobody's forcing you to stay by any means. What comment have I ignored? You've even sent me emails that I've replied to in depth of the same questions you ask here. You don't even try to keep up, you're just throwing your hands up and trying to slander me at this point. Weak.
mo (1 week ago)
In fact, Pete, I've asked you a slew of questions you have yet to answer. Now I'm going to hold you accountable to them.
Luke 11:29 "Jesus said, "THIS IS A WICKED GENERATION. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah."
Luke 11:50 Therefore THIS GENERATION will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, Yes, I tell you, THIS GENERATION will be held responsible for it all.
Explain.
PeteWaldo (1 week ago)
I did answer. Much earlier I asked if you ever carefully considered your understanding of the term "generation".
But you ignore what I write.
That's why I invited you by PM to a forum where we can BOTH be held accountable through quoting and organization.
I will be happy to copy and paste our whole conversation in there. But I won't entertain any more of your drive-by bits while ignoring my responses.
Please join me.
I am dying to know who you believe THE false prophet to be/have been.
mo (1 week ago)
You lie. You hid from my question the first time. Ironically, you accuse me of hiding from you when it was my response to you that you hid from in the first place! This is unreal. What a waste of time, really. You also did not answer the question.
mo (1 week ago)
This is nothing new in the bible. Jerusalem was already a false prophet earlier in Jeremiah 14:14, 23:16, Lamentations 2:14, Ezekiel 13:9, 22:28, etc etc. THey also blasphemed the Holy Spirit in Jesus' day. How much more o fa false prophet can Israel be that other nations can't be?
PeteWaldo (1 week ago)
It was torn down. But wasn't the temple rendered desolate long before 70AD?
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Jhn 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Did Jesus rebuild the temple in 3 days or not? When?
You seem to suggest that there were two covenants, still recognized by God, by suggesting that the temple wasn't rendered desolate by Jesus shed blood.
mo (1 week ago)
Yes, it was desolated by the Greeks under Antiochus IV Epiphaes when they sacrificed a pig on the altar. But Daniel actually speaks of TWO desolations. And Jesus confirms the second desolation in Matthew 24:15. John 2:20 is about Jesus' body if you simply read John 2:21. Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 are about the temple. The first 2 verses of each of those chapters explains the context. John 2 = physical body. Matt, Mark and Luke = Jewish temple.
mo (2 weeks ago)
And if 5 of the 7 horns of the beast of Chapter 17 "HAD fallen" (past tense) then the beast was already alive and active (and past half-fallen at this point) so it has to be Rome and it's Caesars since the events of Revelation were "sooN" to take place and this beast was the one that conquered Greece. It's Rome all the way around. Even going back to the "seven hills" that she sits on. (cont.)
mo (2 weeks ago)
Your case of "many occassions" is lackluster here. Of course the Jews were massacred and were in war for centuries before and after 70 AD. That is not the point. The point is what Daniel and Revelation are talking about. And given the clues of Daniel and Revelation... THIS PARTICUALAR DESOLATION was the end of the Old Covenant as well as the establishment of the new. And I did nothing but use the bible to date the book. What did you use? And if 5 horns of the beast had fallen (cont.)
PeteWaldo (1 week ago)
"five are fallen" and "one is". I agree that would of course be the Roman Empire, as the kingdom current as John wrote.
So what kingdom did the Roman Empire fall to?
What was the 6th kingdom that had "not yet come", as John wrote?
PeteWaldo (1 week ago)
Who was THE false prophet?
mo (1 week ago)
Jerusalem. They maintained that Jesus was not the Son of God nor the Messiah. This is nothing new. In the Old Testament, Israel is CONSTANTLY judged by God as a "prostitute" (simply read Hosea and Ezekiel) and a "false prophet" (simply read Jeremiah.) They became this again after they killed Jesus. Jesus even called them "hypocrites" and "blind guides" and "vipers" and "white-washed tombs" etc. (Luke 11:47-52)
PeteWaldo (1 week ago)
I'm somewhat familiar with replacement theology, clearly manifest in leaders of the presbyterian church meeting with Hamas.
And perhaps God didn't preserve a remnant, and perhaps the good olive tree is grafted into the wild olive tree.
But did you ever consider the term generation?
mo (1 week ago)
Luke 17:25 "But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by THIS GENERATION."
Luke 11:29 "As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "THIS IS A WICKED GENERATION. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah."
So we accept "this generation" of Jews asked for a sign and rejected Jesus but suddenly when it applies to those who would see the kingdom come it's open to unrestrained interpretation? What's wrong with this picture?
PeteWaldo (1 week ago)
Perhaps it's your understanding of the Greek term that is translated "generation".
mo (1 week ago)
The Roman Empire fell to the church which was prophesied in Daniel. (Please read Isaiah 2:2, Daniel 2:34, 2:44-45, Revelation 11:15, Daniel 7:21-22, 7:26-27) Looks like a lot of verses but its' really not. Is it only ironic that the beast (Rome) lost its majesty down the years and then became ruled by Christianity? And Christianity has yet to be stamped out to this day.
PeteWaldo (1 week ago)
If you are referring to successive kingdoms, using an ethnographic hermeneutic, one can't deny that the Roman Empire fell to the Islamic empire.
When did Gentile control of Jerusalem end?
You refer to THE beast as if Rome were the only one. Daniel describes 4, and we find a composite of the first three of those in Rev 13. What kingdom occupies the seats of those first three former kingdoms today?
mo (1 week ago)
I never referred to Rome as the only beast. Not at any one point did I. The first beast is Babylon. Succeeded by Media-Persia. Succeeded by Greece. Succeeded by Rome. We know this because of Daniel 2, 7 and 8 from different perspectives of the same vision. Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar he was the head of gold of the statue so we know that's where we start. Then in Daniel 8:21 we learn the goat will kill the ram and that the goat is Greece and the ram is Media-Persia.
PeteWaldo (1 week ago)
Nor did I write that you did.
I wrote: "You refer to THE beast as if Rome were the only one."
If you review the original context you will see why I wrote that. But then rapidly disappearing context a friend of those who prefer scattered drive-by bits and pieces.
It's impossible to have a discussion with someone who puts so little effort into understanding and mischaracterizes.
Did you ever wonder if there is a reason the kingdom "beast" of Rev 13 is described as a leopard-bear-lion composite?
mo (1 week ago)
First off, you ask fragmented questions that I've already answered. I basically teach you something new each post. Even from the verses you quote I have to interest you in their contexts.
What's impossible here is you presenting a single case and backing it up with history/Scripture. All you've done is accuse Islam of being the false prophet but that conflicts with the "5 heads have fallen and one is" and with the little horn that comes up from them. And I'll tell you why it's that way in 13
PeteWaldo (1 week ago)
You act as though it is a personal accusation that I level against Islam and Mohamed.
Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious HAS BEGOTTEN A SON!" 89 INDEED YE HAVE PUT FORTH A THING MOST MONSTROUS!
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; because HE BELIEVED NOT THE RECORD that God gave of his Son.
Are you going around kissing the Mohammedans blasphemous book - like the pope?
mo (1 week ago)
Revelation 13:2 speaks of them being Lion, Bear, Leopard to recall the reader to Daniel 7:1-4. These were Babylon, Media-Persia and Greece. It does this because now Revelation 13 is going to identify the "fourth beast" in Daniel 7:7-8, 7:19-26. The sea beast appears back in chapter 17 and the heads and horns are identified as "kings" of which 5 of them "HAD FALLEN" when Revelation was penned. The heads were also the hills of Rome. The beast is Rome. (Daniel 7:3,7:12,7:17)
mo (1 week ago)
You're confused again about the HOLY Roman Empire and the Roman Empire. Rome was all but tepid and useless as it split into TWO empires and Constantine even moved the capital from Rome to Constantinople. Then he legalized Christianity and it became the official religion of the tapering empire. So yes, eventually, in God's time, the church did conquer the beast. (PLEASE READ DANIEL 2:44 and 7:12!)
PeteWaldo (1 week ago)
See what I mean?
