How the Vatican Created Islam

[yonah33]

Topic split off from "parallels" thread and given it's own title (from the included link) by admin.

Greetings Esteban, & welcome to the forum.

It is not my intention to upset you, or any one else in any way, (my comments are with regard to history alone) but are you also aware that there is a certain amount of evidence to support the fact that the Pope of the day, was responsible for uniting the Arab nations into a central Islamic religion?

The Papacy had apparently been trying to get into Jerusalem for some time & were unable to enter because of opposition from certain quarters, so when Mahammed showed interest in most religions that he came in contact with, he was encouraged to study the bible. As a result, we now have the Islamic system, with some spattering of the Bible mixed into the Koran.

Things aren't always what they may seem, as you have shown by pointing out the Protestant position with regard to the Crusades.

Christian greetings,

Amos

http://www.remnantofgod.org/books/docs/How-the-Vatican-Created-Islam.pdf

The Two Babylons - Part III
They took his headship and humbled him: Napoleon's soldiers upturned St. Peter's chair beneath which is carved,
 "There is no other God but Allah, ...
www.biblebelievers.org.au/nl166.htm - Cached - Similar

[Peter]

Napoleon's soldiers upturned St. Peter's chair beneath which is carved,
 "There is no other God but Allah, ...
www.biblebelievers.org.au/nl166.htm - Cached - Similar

Could you provide additional sources for this?

Additionally, I realize that Islamic "tradition" penned in the 7th and 8th centuries claims that Mohammed's grandfather REdug the well of Zamzam, but where is the historical or archaeological record of this?
Or that Mecca even existed before the 4th century AD. The article seems to lean on Islamic historical fiction.

[yonah33]

 What do you mean by additional sources? I gave you the website it is from. Are you saying that in order to post you have to have two sources and a personal opinion? The sources are available for anybody who wants to check them. In case you're unfamiliar with The Two Babylons, it is a very authoritative work.

[Peter]

What do you mean by additional sources? I gave you the website it is from. Are you saying that in order to post you have to have two sources and a personal opinion? The sources are available for anybody who wants to check them. In case you're unfamiliar with The Two Babylons, it is a very authoritative work.

I didn't notice any footnotes or sources referenced by the author. So I Googled the subject of your first link. All I found of the Allah chair story you posted was one other guy referencing the same site that you did.

First of all, the author lived 1400 years after the period he is supposed to be writing about. Where are the footnotes? Where's the bibliography?
While I don't consider Wikipedia a definitive source here's a little on what some have written about your author.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Rivera

[Peter]

Let's go to the first line of the quoted. No shortage of folks presume that Mohammed and his tribe were Ishmaelites, but they migrated to Mecca from Yemen - south of Mecca, not from northern Arabia, the Wilderness of Paran, or the fertile crescent. Were their ancestors were more likely from across the strait in Ethiopia. There is no record of an overland connection between Yemen and northern Arabia until about the 6th-8th century BC. The spices from Yemen bound for the fertile crescent, for example, traveled by boat. While I used to find it fun to believe Mohammed and his tribe were Ishmaelites ("hand against every man" and such) I find the conclusion increasingly more difficult to make.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1216.0

[Peter]

"In a tribal contention over a well(Zamzam) the treasure of the Kaaba and the offerings that
pilgrims had given were dumped down the well and it was filled with sand - it disappeared. Many years later Adb Al-Muttalib was given visions telling him where to find the well and its treasure."

1. While this is consistent with 7th and 8th century created Islamic "tradition", does it really make sense to you that a well, in one of the driest areas that even Arabia has to offer, that not only the locals but also nomadic Bedouins would have been using for generations, could be filled with treasure and covered over, and that somehow nobody would miss it? That somehow everyone would for some reason forget it's location?

2. Was it supposed to have been God that gave Abdel his "vision" so he could reopen the well and then dedicate it to Asaf and Naelah?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1209.0

[Peter]

I am splitting this subject off into it's own topic thread since it has more to do with conspiracy than parallels.

[Peter]

I would appreciate it if you responded to the prior replies in order to help keep our exchange organized.

"It is said that the Jews looked upon the
Kaaba as an outlying tabernacle of the Lord with veneration until it became polluted with idols."

More 7th and 8th century created Islamic fiction.
Does it make sense to you that any Jew, would ever have considered a giant black box 1200 kilometers from the Holy Land an "outlying tabernacle"? (let alone that it seems it didn't exist until immigrants from Yemen built it in the early 5th century)

Where is the historical record of this?
Did you notice how so many lines are prefaced with "It is said...."? Do you wonder why that is?

[Peter]

"'Teachers were sent to young Muhammad and he had intensive training. Muhammad studied the
works of St. Augustine which prepared him for his "great calling.""

Pretty studious for an illiterate.

[resistingrexmundi]

What do you mean by additional sources? I gave you the website it is from. Are you saying that in order to post you have to have two sources and a personal opinion? The sources are available for anybody who wants to check them. In case you're unfamiliar with The Two Babylons, it is a very authoritative work.

There is no need to get so defensive. But when you assert something and someone wishes to reference source material it is only fair that you provide it.

God bless

[Peter]

'While Muhammad was being prepared, he was told that his enemies were the Jews and that the
only true Christians were Roman Catholic."

If this was the beginning of this alleged education then how do you explain his pre-Medina "revelations" like these

Sura 5:68 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

"People of the Book" being a reference to Jews and Christians.

[Peter]

"'Muhammad began receiving "divine revelations" and his wife's Catholic cousin Waraquah
helped interpret them. From this came the Koran."

Perhaps better put, that inspired the beginning of the Koran. Mohammed told his wife that a demon met him in the cave, and his wife talked him out of it and convinced him that his feeling that the demon tried nearly squeeze the life out of him 3 times, was actually a messenger from God doing that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpsWnbApBNw

For the mostpart the Quran is a mix of poorly recalled Islamic and Jewish fables Mohammed was told, and self-serving suras that advanced his imperialistic conquest, rape of prisoners and theft of the property of others.

So how do you suppose the Jesuits arranged for Mohammed to have these "revelations" in the cave?

[Peter]

"'Muhammad claimed he had a vision from Allah and was told, "You are the messenger of Allah."
This began his career as a prophet and he received many messages. By the time Muhammad
died, the religion of Islam was exploding. The nomadic Arab tribes were joining forces in the
name of Allah and his prophet, Muhammad.'"

By suggesting it was the "religion" that was exploding someone might get the mistaken impression that somehow folks voluntarily bought into it, however in his first 13 years Mohammed was barely able to gain 100 followers.

Then he went to Medina and enlisted two bandit tribes that made their living off of pillaging caravans and he enlisted them into picking up the sword in the name of Mohammed and his "Allah". He returned to Mecca with a threat and the Quraish submitted. The same went on throughout Arabia in his lifetime, and the imperialistic conquest continued long after, eventually encompassing nearly the whole known world up as far as Tours France and Vienna Austria.

[Peter]

In case you're unfamiliar with The Two Babylons, it is a very authoritative work.

"The Two Babylons - Part III

The Bible is the tale of two cities. One is the heavenly Jerusalem -- God incarnate in His glorified elect, reigning through eternity over a kingdom of the "saved". The other is earthly Jerusalem "which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where our Lord was crucified". Here Satan, incarnate in the Roman pope, will rule a New World Order through the time of "Jacob's trouble" to the consummation (Revelation 11:8; Jeremiah 30; Daniel 9:26-27).

Some imagine the Roman Catholic church has been corrupted only recently but she was never Christian, committing adultery with the pagan Trinity against God's Word she claims as her Husband when she married the State at the First Nicea Council of AD325. The Catholic, New Catholic, indeed all encyclopedias declare that the Trinity doctrine and baptism in three Titles were not introduced into Christian circles until centuries after the death of the first apostles."

We'll get into the "authoritative" nature of this article - through scripture, and Anthony Grigor-Scott and "Bible Believers" after you finish defending the earlier replies, to your first link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_Believers

[yonah33]

I find a lot of strong similarities between Obama and Muhammad.

BTW - do you know there are no Protestants on the US Supreme Court?  But there are 6 Catholics.  

hmmmm

[Peter]

I find a lot of strong similarities between Obama and Muhammad.

BTW - do you know there are no Protestants on the US Supreme Court?  But there are 6 Catholics.  

hmmmm

Please support what you previously posted before introducing any new topics. You can start here.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1870.msg7639#msg7639

[yonah33]

Please support what you previously posted before introducing any new topics. You can start here.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1870.msg7639#msg7639

This is supposed to be a discussion forum - not a kind of college course where the professor uses someone else's material to glorify his own intellectualness while subjectively grading students on their oral comments rather than their ability to reason.

It's how a lot of cults get started.

i must be in the wrong college.

[Peter]

Please support what you previously posted before introducing any new topics. You can start here.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1870.msg7639#msg7639

This is supposed to be a discussion forum ........

EXACTLY! From "Forum Decorum" http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=35.0
"All we require of members is that they engage in a dialog - in an exchange. Post a thread or comment, or even a couple, wait for a response, and then respond to responses. In other words don't just spam away while ignoring the responses of others to your posts.
If you copy and paste something, not unreasonably you will be expected to defend it in it's entirety, as well as any of your own material."

Do you find it unreasonable for folks in this forum to expect other folks to support what they post in the forum?

.......... - not a kind of college course where the professor uses someone else's material to glorify his own intellectualness while subjectively grading students on their oral comments rather than their ability to reason.

It's how a lot of cults get started.

Cults get started by folks failing to question the veracity of something that someone else advances, but instead simply believing it.

i must be in the wrong college.

This is a discussion forum, so why don't you discuss the material that you posted rather than continuing to obfuscate?

[yonah33]

Sorry I missed the fine print - I'm not into debating. The material I post speaks for itself much better than my ability. The purpose is to encourage discussion and thinking.

Like I said, I'm in the wrong school. I shall be transferring. You win.

[Peter]

Sorry I missed the fine print - I'm not into debating.

Perhaps what you mean is that you are unable to support the unique stuff that you have posted in this forum.

The material I post speaks for itself much better than my ability. The purpose is to encourage discussion and thinking.

Yet you express no interest in discussing it, but only avoiding discussion.

Again, do you find it unreasonable for members in this forum to expect other members to support what they post in the forum?

Or should we simply let folks lard the forum with any amount of copy and pasted unsupportable nonsense, in any kind of volume that anyone decides they want to copy and paste in here? Do you think that would be the most effective way to help bring our Muslim could-become brothers and sisters to Christ?

Like I said, I'm in the wrong school. I shall be transferring. You win.

[yonah33]

It is your classroom to do as you wish. You win.

[Peter]

It is your classroom to do as you wish. You win.

All your sour grapes attitude does is suggest that you are trying to convince yourself that this is about something other than your inability to support the preposterous notion that the Vatican created Islam, that the nonsensical article tried to advance, that fails on so many levels.
But there's no need to make up stories about the Roman Church for someone devoted to bashing Roman Catholicism. Their doctrine is sufficient witness against Roman Catholicism.

It would seem apparent that you never had any interest in discussion in a discussion forum at all, but perhaps more of an interest in advancing something by links and copy and paste, that you have perhaps been indoctrinated into believing.

[yonah33]

Over and out.

[Peter]

Over and out.

I'll go ahead and set the topic as non-sticky.

[amos45]

Then Pete, that makes two of us that are at disagreance with you over this view.

There is ample information out there in the public domain that supports this view concerning Islam & the Vatican. The other thing is....it all makes sense....no imagination needed.

Yonah is much like myself, don't like confrontation or arguements.